Rasputin

PoKa_DoTs · 05-03-2003, 08:11

RA RA RA! Anyone know who he is? ::evil grin::

yuila · 05-03-2003, 17:03

yeah hes a old russian monk (probobly dead)

L_Katina · 06-03-2003, 19:49

I thought i was the advisor for the last zar (don't no how to spell!) of russia!

freddie · 07-03-2003, 00:46

Wasnt he the lover of the rusian queen? Just kidding

Charles · 07-03-2003, 01:10

Hmm. I've read he was a faith healer, a con man, an advisor, a whore monger, and a scapegoat. He could supposedly control the hemophaelia of the heir to the throne, Alexis, so the Tsarina (?) thought he was sent by God. Legend has it he was poisoned, shot, beaten, and shot again. They finally through him in a canal, where he fnially drowned.

Easy enough to find info with a web search.

rosh · 07-03-2003, 01:51

i read his biography by his daughter about 8 yrs ago. biased at times but a fair assessment most times of what he was - a supposedly spiritual nympho who was very much in favour with the czarina

Jan · 07-03-2003, 04:52

absolutely true.
He never was a Tzarina's lover, nor a monk.
More of a self- proclaimed "saint".
Eventually, his figure attributed to the peoples discontent towards the Royal house.
He was, infact, poisoned, but it didn't work so they shot him, when that failed either he was beaten to death and drowned in the river.

Less then 3 month later the Revolution broke out.

And in less then 2 years (1918) the whole Royal family was brutally slaughtered- including the 16 year old Heir, four daughters and even servants and a family doctor...
Their bodies were only discovered in the late 80th, and finally burried in Peter and Paul fortress in St. Petersburg on July 17, 1998.- exactly 80 years after the murder.

If you have any more questions on the subject- feel free to ask!

YLuelniaa · 11-03-2003, 01:12

wow that be some shizniz..

tmp · 12-03-2003, 00:28

Jan, small details: the poisoning did not work, because they tried to use cianide in a cake that he was eating. well to go from hystory to chemistry: sugar is an untidote to cianide.

To the rest: who knows where Russia is?
just kidding

thegurgi · 12-03-2003, 04:13

I've studied the last Romanov family for several years. Most of what's been said is either true or speculation.
The records of his death include the cianide in the cakes. He ate Many of these cakes actually, but did not die. In the end they (including a Duke, his name I can't think of at the top of my head) shot him many times. Eventually being chucked into a freezing river. Died of hypothermia above anything else.

He did "predict" their deaths in a letter to the Tsar and such, in a letter saying "If any one of your blood should murder me, your family and rule will be ended in..." i can't remember how early this was.
Anyway, in Ekaterinburg at Ipatiev House (now destroyed). All those with the captured Romanovs (with the family physician, cook, valet and Tsarina Alexandra's maid) were shot to death. All is speculation. As for their bodies being found, even those may not be true. I've read 2 books that document that the DNA testing may not have been conducted correctly. It's just one BIG mystery. All the theories are out there.

As for Rasputin, he was probably just a Schizophrenic who had enough of a drive to get from Siberia to the Royal Family
They "hired" him to help Alexi (The heir) with his hemophelia (your blood doesn't clot, leads to terrible bruises, internal bleeding).

143Yulia · 15-03-2003, 23:24

he healed the last czar of russia's son of hemophelia

143Yulia · 15-03-2003, 23:27

thegurgi, good explaination

Ripptyd · 16-03-2003, 03:09

*grins*
When I learned about Russia in Modern European history last year, my teacher had fun telling us about him. NO ONE forgot anything about Rasputin still. We were just in awe of the whole tale.

Gotta love the type of guy that'd find food in his beard later on. LMAO. Scoundrel...

thegurgi · 16-03-2003, 04:48

He's a facisinating fellow indeed. His pictures are haunting too.
as for

Quote:

Originally posted by 143Yulia
he healed the last czar of russia's son of hemophelia

Rasputin didn't heal Alexi of anything, the only thing Rasputin healed was possibly Alexandra's sexual lonliness while Nicky was off at war.

Jan · 16-03-2003, 05:01

thegurgi, It seems like you doubt what I have said above.

Trust me- I had very personal connection with this whole story and can positively say- THERE IS NO QUESTION as to the identity of the bodies.
I've read almost everything there is on the subject, including famous book by Sokolov (the first investigator) written in Berlin just a few years after the murder.

Quote:

Originally posted by thegurgi

I've read 2 books that document that the DNA testing may not have been conducted correctly.

Which books are you talking about?
None of the serious authors questions DNA testing. There's been 2 separate tests conducted (one in UK by dr.Perer Gill at the British Home Office"s Forensic Science Center,another one by dr.King in US) both established 99.96% match to the living relatives of the Imperial family.

This is on top of the fact that: Age- relation-general composition of the bodies found match precisely that of the murdered Royals and their servants with the only exception- 2 bodies are missing.
The only remaining question: who's body is amiss- Anastasia's or Maria's? (The other one is without a doubt that of a Heir, Alexey)
Additional tests been done -so called "computerized juxtaposition" i.e. comparison of the skulls with the photos of Imperial family- all 100% match.

And in conclusion:
Name of the Great Duke you mention is Dmitry, he was Emperor's cousin and got exiled as a result of participation in the Rasputin murder,( which by the way saved his life)...
Llived in the States after the Revolution, married rich American girl, Audrey Emery.

thegurgi · 16-03-2003, 06:20

Don't worry Jan, I was just stating that there IS doubt, and some of it is substantial. I'm reading this book called "The Secret Plot to Save the Tsar" by Shay McNeal. The list of sources given on this book is very VERY impressive including the book by Sokolov. Also sourced is the mysterious book "Rescueing the Tsar" by James Smythe published 4 years before Sokolov's. As for:

Quote:

Originally posted by Jan
I had very personal connection with this whole story and can positively say- THERE IS NO QUESTION as to the identity of the bodies.

If there is a true PERSONAL connection, I would have to be very very skeptical due to the undeniable bias that there would be if such a personal connection would lay (doing with their opinion of the matter).
It's a mystery and EVERYONE has their say.
But here is quote from the book i'm reading that's a quote from the Respected genetics expert William Shields:

Quote:

Even ifa mtDNA sequence matches that of Prince Philip, it doesn't mean that the person is his relative. For unrelated individuals can and do match at their mtDNA sequences. So one needs to know the frequency of matching Prince Philip's sequence with the general population before one can determine what it means that particular mitochondrial sequence matches his, and how much weight to give it in terms of making a positive indentification.

still, in being what he's said is rather controvertial. Don't worry.

This is a MYSTERY, you can not in any way state anything as FACT. And i do not say that they are the bodies and that they aren't. I simply think that the possibilities are LIMITLESS and that it's all worthy of debate.

[note] while researching for this post i gave myself a nasty papercut

Jan · 16-03-2003, 07:21

OK, but there is a point when you can not possibly question it any longer- of course, we can doubt everything, including the fact that we do really exist and not just dreaming the whole thing as in "Matrix"...apart from THIS kind of a doubt I can not see any other in this case.

Mystery? Yes, there is a mystery-
What happened to the 2 missing bodies?
Could they have survived? Is it Maria or Anastasia?
Who really was Anna Anderson?
You can perhaps question DNA evidence in her case.

As for what you are quoting above-

"

Quote:

For unrelated individuals can and do match at their mtDNA sequences.

Oh, come on!That is exactly why it is 99.96 % and not 100%- cause you have 1 in 2500 chance of that happenning.
However: it is in a totally unattached hypotetical case, when you have 2 sets of bones and no other evidence.

Here you must multiply this by:
-Composition (number of female and male bodies, thier age and interrelation )
-Positioning (exact spot described in Yurovsky note)
-Approximate age of the grave (bodies spent between 50 to 100 years in the ground)

Tell me, what are the chances of exactly the same group of people being killed at the same time and burried at the same area?
Now, one of them is 99.96% chances of been related to Prince Phillip!

Besides, did you know, that apart of mtDNA they also did analysis of nuclear DNA?
And the body presumed to be that of the Tzar showed match with a rare deviation, which happens once in approx.100 generations?
And then they exhumed the late Emperors brother from Peter and Paul fortress in St.Petersburg, and HIS DNA SHOWED EXACT SAME DEVIATION! (on top of the fact that both DNA's matched again, of course)

If you can still doubt after that- you must be simply insane!

As for the books you talking about- I've never even heard of them, however I know how this stuff appears-
sure, what fun would it be to write on a obvious subject?
You NEED a mystery to sell a book, so...you creat one!

My personal connection has nothing to do with bias though- it only makes me all the more carefull and allows access to many things not open to the general public.
Or did allow at some point anyway.

thegurgi · 16-03-2003, 08:08

touche, good job. And may i just state (for stating purposes) I have ALWAYS believed that the bodies found at that location were the Tsar and his family (sans possibly Maria or Anastasia and Alexei) (What are the chances of finding those bodies with the right Male to Female ratio and the right ratio of non-related bones for the servants). I simply like to state both sides of the puzzle, to let OTHERS choose what they want (although Jan has done quite a lot of stuff)

i like to let people DECIDE FOR THEMESELVES and most people do not have the SKEPTIC point of view information like i do.

Although, this mysterious book "Rescueing the Tsar" should be found. It hasn't been reprinted since 1920, so to find someone else with it would be great and to read.

As for Anna Anderson I'd love to know who she really was and where she came from.
And Maria and Anastasia's case is sure a mystery. I read an article a few weeks ago with ANOTHER found Anastasia.
I'm sure Alexi couldn't have survived in his condition <--just my opinion. The girls certainly could have due to the jewels sewed in their undergarments...

Am i a sick o, or am I the only one who really wants to see the finger of Alexandra that they found at the first site where they prepped the bodies for burials? Does that finger still exists? Do you know jan?

Jan · 16-03-2003, 20:21

The finger, as well as everything else Sokolov found was taken out of Russia and given to the Russian Church Abroad for safekeeping.
It is supposedly been held in Russian Orthodox Church in Brussels, Belgium, although church representatives decline to comment on the contants of the box they have, AND , by the way, refused to give it for DNA testing.

People "deciding for themself" is good when they have all the information available, in this case most of them only heard rumours, their decision would likely be wrong and create even more rumours...

Like I said- this is very personal for me,and I am happy to see them (The Royal family and servants) finally finding resting place in Peter and Paul Fortress next to their relatives and friends, and do not like to see all that speculation still going around even now, when they seem to have found well deserved peace at last...
By the way - I was present at the burial in St. Petersburg, July 17 , 1998.

thegurgi · 16-03-2003, 23:45

I would have love to be there in St. Petersburg but i had several reasons (1. Age 2. Location and 3. Medical Complications) As for information (i'd never read anywhere about Nuclear DNA testing and have to wonder why this testing is so under-told and where you recieved this information) So, of course, you would have better access to the facts geographically. Living in Rural pennsylvania, i have a very unlikely chance of meeting someone who personally worked on research, unlike you, who, i'm guessing lives in Russia. Also, not speaking Russian, it's very hard to find translated articles on such things, also that i don't trust translations...which makes it just as hard to get information.

Despite all this, my main focus on the Romanov's has always had to do with the family and children and their holding in Ekaterinburg (i wish they hadn't torn down the Ipatiev House way back when, i would have loved to visit it). I read a wonderful book by Robert K. Massie "Romanov's: The Final Chapter" that very craftfully tells of their stay there... of course i only recommend this book to English readers.

It's a wonderful history and it chills you at some points. Throughout my research i've gain a hefty respect for Alexandra's maid who fought courageously in her last moments and always felt that the slaughter of the servants with the family was brutal and unnecessary (despite the fact that it was necessecary to keep the murder secret).