Tatu in Podnebesnaya. Releases from 21.02.04 and 22.02.04. [aka Eps. 11 & 12]

[nath]

Originally posted by katbeidar
. just because Julia made fame and millions out of lies and poor acting doesn't mean she is intelligent. If she got a scholarship to Harvard at 19, it would have been a complitely different story. .....

[I dunno about you guys, but education is the most important thing to me.]

I always have a great interest and a big smile on the face in reading your posts Katbeider , especially when they are about general subjects concerning LIFE.....
You give me taste to study again Philosophy....and the big questions :
"What is for you the definition of INTELLIGENCE?"
"What is for you the definition of EDUCATION?"
.....Yeah! Definitively, I Love TATYSITE !.....you discover inside such.....incredible things......

[Kate]

sunwalk, of course, there are different types of intelligence, and I am sure when it comes to "Julia Volkova" type of intelligence, she knows who to sleep with in order to get a contract done [just kiddin']. But, for myself personally, I prefer intelligence as in scientific knowledge. Usually a degree in History, Chemistry, Astronomy etc defines intelligence for me.

P.S. I love TatySite.net as well. We have such a great diversity of opinions here.

[Bitty2002]

katbeidar, I agree, fame and millions doesn't make anyone intelligent. I don't think that was what Xena was getting at. And I don't think either of them is stupid. No, they are not geniuses, but who really likes geniuses? They are usually rather reclusive and a bit sketchy.

And, let me start by saying that I love my country, and if anyone disses it I will get pissy, BUT the US is not the best with teaching its people world news and info. I had no clue Singapore used to be a British Colony. I would have probably had the same thinking as Yulia. Yes, I would think a lot more people in Singapore spoke English compared to Russian, but if I felt I could communicate better in my native language, what is the harm? Now for any intelligent person knowing that MTV Asia would be in English, that is a bit presumptuous. Yes, when you think about it, it makes sense. English is becoming the Universal language. I get so confused. Mixed messages. I have so many people telling me that Americans and the like need to get over themselves and stop assuming that world revolves around them. Then, people are supposed to assume it does. Maybe I should feel stupid for not knowing about Singapore. And thank you everyone for all the rude things you said about Yulia, because I took them personally as well, since apparently I am also too stupid to realize all these things. Being stupid isn't anything I have ever thought I was...now uninformed, sure. Aren't we all a little uninformed at times? I would say every one of us had a different world history class.

And katbeidar, I left high school early and started college when I was 16, and got scholarships to MIT, Harvard...I could go on. I am 19 and a 5th year student at university. I am not trying to be arrogant, but would you be my fan?

[simon]

Originally posted by sunny poison
As for the language... Yulia didn't know english was official language in Singapore. Sue her. It just happened so that the girl didn't have chance to get a proper education... u see... she was just working as a horse recording the songs u like so much now and giving 2-3 concerts a day (yeah, they worked really hard those years in Russia). But even with this, she didn't think Russian was the main language in Asia. The just thought as english wasn't native neither for them, nor for ppl in Singapore, it would be better to record the thing in russian... as it would be easier for them to express what they mean... if the thing should be translated anyway. And of course it was a real crime from her to suppose that MTV Asia broadcasts in any popular asian language

U are geeting so bitter even on such liitle details... I dunno... it seems that every word I say... just gives u the reason to bash them even more. I'm glad the show is almost over and I'll have to write just one more report. Coz I think u'v got enough things to discuss already. *sigh*

I'm not trying to bash them. I'm very aware that Yulia left school at 11 or something like that. I don't think she's stupid - just not very well informed about the world. And nor is it the fact that she didn't know that English is the official language of Singapore. What surprised me is that she didn't realise that MTV Asia broadcasts in English and obviously doesn't know about Asian languages - as sunny poison said she was so pleased about knowing that Singapore was in Asia. The "whatever language they speak there" comment is what was so funny for me.

Originally posted by RowerB
I don’t think you think you really believe this simon. You’re just using this as another reason to attack tatu but if anyone said you were not telling the truth, you’d do doubt mock them saying “It was obviously a joke” as you always do when you get caught out.

I'm not out to bash Tatu. Have you actually been reading my posts? I defended Yulia's decision not to go to Singapore. I don't think Tatu are perfect or terrible. They're people and they have their good points and bad points. I just say what I think.

[Rob]

What surprised me is that she didn't realise that MTV Asia broadcasts in English and obviously doesn't know about Asian languages - as sunny poison said she was so pleased about knowing that Singapore was in Asia. The "whatever language they speak there" comment is ...

Keeping in mind that in asian countries many languages are spoken, like in Singapore 4 languages, and (colonial) history is very different from country to country, it's not clear at all in which language TV-Shows in asian countries are presented.

tATu have been often in Japan, it wouldn't be surprising if one thinks the situation might be the same or comparable with Singapore.

Go out on the street and ask people - such stuff is not "common knowledge" neither here nor in Russia.

[convol]

I'll first start with thanking sunny poison for bringing these detailed and highly interesting reports to us. If it weren't for you, we wouldn't have known much about what's going on with Tatu.

I missed this discussion last time, and I'm sorry if I'm too off-topic here. On a meta-level, I agree that intelligence is a very wide concept, and suffice it to say that I don't consider reproduction of knowledge to be very indicative of "higher" thinking. Opening myself up for easy bashing, I think Yulia has shown in several interviews/press conferences that she can be both very witty and clever. I have in mind for instance the Eurovision press conferences, the Barpolsat interview, the Ptyuch interview (simon once made a fascinating analysis on that one ) etc. Think of all the quick replies to journalists, answers with double meanings, paradoxal jokes, the ambiguous game they are playing (generally), bluffing/double bluffing using sarcasm etc.; and even though they are asked the same questions over and over again, their thinking is sufficiently excentric and non-standard to still find ways of approaching the questions in a different and creative manner.

As doteurovision.com (all the better that it's not a Tatu fansite) said about the first Eurovision press conference: "The Press Conference for the Russian Delegation will live in Eurovision folklore and legend for many a year to come. It was, quite simply, the smartest, most impactual piece of playing the media at their own game I have ever seen. Those girls have balls! And boy were they batting them back at the Press as hard as they could! Good on 'em! I am sick of the same standard answers to inane questions at these things given by simpering little upstarts."

Didn't Yulia's former headmaster even say that Yulia had very good grades in the Japanese Broadcaster interview? I can't imagine that she would have been admitted to Gnessin, which is Russia's finest musical education, for nothing. During the first year of Tatu, Yulia was still attending Gnessin before she quit (or was thrown out depending on what sources you read) and apart from this, she has a classical education.

Originally posted by xena225
How many 19-year-old millionaires with world fame are on this forum, I wonder?

[transcend]

I agree with convol. I've never seen Yulia as stupid. Although Lena seems to be the more conventionally clever and intellectual of the two, I believe that Yulia seems to be very smart about people and the subtext of situations. From what I saw of the media stuff they did in the US and the UK (and I saw most of it) she seemed to read the situation very well most of the time and consistently made monkeys out of the interviewers they had to face, in spite of her limited English ability. She also strikes me as somebody who doesn't suffer fools gladly. I think that that's why she sometimes comes across as obnoxious and rude.

As to the trivial Singapore being an English speaking country - well, I'm 32, British, have a first-class degree (so if you want to see having diplomas and degrees as a mark of intelligence, then I am very intelligent) and it was not immediately obvious to me that Singapore would be an English-speaking country.

And sunny poison, I hope it hasn't been too boring or trying for you to type out these lengthy reports on the reality show. You really are very kind to be doing this for us. How come your English is so good?

[Unplugged]

I don't find Lena or Yulia are stupid. The only thing I could say is that Lena is most of the times more focused on what she is doing, while Yulia has more "fire" in her, she's more impulsive and can say some nonsense just out of the blue, without really realizing it.

They are both clever and intelligent. If they were dumb, the 'lesbian legend' would have been lost way before - it still lasted a couple of years, and probably would have lasted if it weren't for the documentary (at least for some more gullable and addicted fans).

As for their answers to journalists, I don't know how we can say that they were clever giving them and dealing with the situations, because most of the time that were saying what they were told to say (by Ivan, or even Lena Kiper). The whole "lesbian story", etc. They had every detail memorized and repeated the same things - the contradiction of the "we are / are not lesbians" thing was part of it, to create interest ("are they or are they not?") - it was clearly premeditated.
Besides, they never had to answer any complicated or different questions - all questions followed the same pattern and were either about they were doing / had done musically (singles, concerts, whatever) or about their relationship, and they were obviously prepared - it was pretty obvious that when didn't know what to say, they would reply with a question (example: "What do you think?", "Have you boyfriend?" ) or say something like "it doesn't matter" or whatever.
I remember for example their Popworld interview in the UK. Everything seemed to go fine until they were asked a not-so-typical-question:
"The first time you kissed was in the video?"
Lena translated the question and Yulia said "Yeah." - which obviously contradicted their story of already having a lesbian relationship when they formed the group and then showing their emotions, their "life", in the video. Lena was quickly aware of the mistake and said "That doesn't make sense, maybe not", and Yulia, also aware of her mistake, said "Maybe not, it's secret". This is just an example of something which is very clear to me - they replied what they were told to reply, they followed a pattern. When they were asked unexpected questions, they never had an accurate answer, they would just start trying to confuse the interviewer or focus people's attention on something else so they could get away with it. Remember Yulia's behaviour in talkshows with the water glasses, always telling the host to "relax" or "calm down" saying there's water right next to them, even if there was absolutely no reason for her to say that because everybody was calm (it was a desperate attempt to make it seem like the show had been invaded by 'bad asses' so the hosts would need to try to relax and drink some water) That's also a very good example of how their behaviour was obviously planned and was repeated many times, so I wouldn't really come up to the conclusion they're intelligent by the answers they give on interviews.

[transcend]

The interview that actually comes to mind in suggesting that Yulia was pretty perceptive in her reading of situations was the Jimmy Kimmel one (I think). Basically, they came on, Don King, Vince Vaughn and Monica Belllucci were already there (all of whom are quite big stars) and it was pretty clear straight away that Kimmel was trying to ridicule them, he made no allowances for the fact that Lena's English was not perfect, and she seemed to get a bit flustered and upset. He also made it pretty clear that the only reason they were on was to provide a bit of cheap girl-on-girl action for the boys to leer at. Well, just before Tatu went on to perform you could see that Yulia and Lena were deep in discussion, Lena still looking a bit upset, Yulia very calm and reassuring. And it was clear that she was telling Lena that when they kissed during the instrumental break in the song, she would cover their faces with her hand, so the audience wouldn't see....which is precisely what she went on to do. I think that was a pretty smart reaction to the situation and I'm pretty sure she wasn't directed to do that by anybody else. I also think you're underestimating how quick off the mark Yulia has been sometimes in responding to interviewers with some witticism or one-liner (particularly in the Russian interviews) and I don't think those have been pre-planned at all.

[Unplugged]

I also think you're underestimating how quick off the mark Yulia has been sometimes in responding to interviewers with some witticism or one-liner (particularly in the Russian interviews) and I don't think those have been pre-planned at all.

Maybe I am. I don't know. It's secret.

No, seriously. I was referring to convol's post. I just don't think one can say "Oh, look, they're intelligent, look how they managed their interviews" - sure Yulia's one-liners were funny and had great sense of timing - that was spontaneous, not prepared - but most of the time I believe they were saying things they had been told to say.

How come your English is so good?

Yeah, sunny poison, your English is really good. I mean, Russians aren't exactly famous for speaking good english

[transcend]

It's quite sad that we're reduced to discussing things like this and whether or not we knew that English was spoken in Singapore, isn't it? Things ain't what they used to be here! I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the Reality Show will go out with a bang!

[simon]

I not just don't think Yulia is stupid, I think she's clever. I don't think that someone who doesn't know that English is the most widely understood language in Asia is stupid, just that they are ill-informed. I found the whole way Yulia was trying to be clever and being tripped up by her lack of knowledge rather cute.

I think staringelf is right that they had a lot of it pre-prepared and most of the questions they were asked weren't particularly difficult. But they often (particularly Yulia) came out with witty rejoinders to things that were said. Those surely weren't all pre-prepared. You have to be intelligent to be witty like that. And as convol said, you have to be clever just to make such ambiguous statements. I think Yulia understood the humorous side of what they were doing better than Lena, who tried too hard to be convincing.

The Popworld interview still confuses me. I would think that Yulia is intelligent enough that she would have realised the implications of saying 'yes'. Maybe it was a momentary lapse in her thinking, maybe she just wanted to surprise the interviewers and have some fun. Yulia had looked bored all the way through the interview up to then and was clearly enormously enjoying herself afterwards. It was terribly suspicious, but I don't know whether it shows Yulia as not being so clever, or her as being too clever by half. That was the thing with the MTV Asia video - Yulia was trying to be too clever by half.

[Unplugged]

I think Yulia understood the humorous side of what they were doing better than Lena, who tried too hard to be convincing.

I agree. Lena tried too hard, she was too dramatic when telling the whole "lesbian story".

[convol]

Originally posted by staringelf
No, seriously. I was referring to convol's post. I just don't think one can say "Oh, look, they're intelligent, look how they managed their interviews"

This was not what I said. I said that I think Yulia has shown that she can be both very witty and clever. The press conferences are good examples, because they had to rely on wits there and they did it really well IMO. I agree that most of the things they say are standard answers, and for this reason you can't really use them to make a point. simon and transcend said it much better though - great messages

[Linda16]

Sorry, going back to some previous posts by sunny poison.

Originally posted by sunny poison

They (well, Ivan mostly) tried to cure you from what u are doing now actually - from making fast decisions and sticking to ur own opinion. They tried to show that there's nothing in this world u can be sure of. That there are different ways to see one situation, interpret one word. That nothing is really what it seems.

Originally posted by sunny poison
While in Russia Lena and Yulia were just 2 brave and sincere girls, nice, funny and animated... and they were singing cool songs about love and freedom... and sure they weren't lesbians but they seemed to love each other in their cute way, in the West all that mattered was 'are they or aren't they?'.
I think this was something neither TATU, nor Ivan were ready for. These were another rules they had to play by. First it was funny but then became tiresome and painful. It's hard to explain things that seem so obvious for you, its hard to be constantly missunderstood. it's hard to survive in the wold u don't belong to.

I think that these two remarks are extremely important. We can consider that the statement "Nothing is really what it seems" - is one one of the key messages of Tatu. I think it is even more important than the classical "Be yourself. Don't be afraid". Tatu's message is about opening our minds, climbing out of our mental prisons. Have we succeeded in this?

And I believe also that actually Ivan/Tatu were not prepared to face the West. Rules were different, attitudes were different and like sunny poison said "First it was funny but then became tiresome and painful". Maybe this was the main reason behind Ivan's inactivity, boredom and tiredness.

Very good and useful posts, sunny poison!

[simon]

Originally posted by Linda16
I think that these two remarks are extremely important. We can consider that the statement "Nothing is really what it seems" - is one one of the key messages of Tatu. I think it is even more important that the classical "Be yourself. Don't be afraid". Tatu's message is about opening our minds, climbing out of our mental prisons. Have we succeeded in this?

I was thinking about that earlier this evening. Can we believe Podnebesnaya? Hopefully, Saturday night's episode will reveal if it was all a trick too!

Originally posted by Linda16
And I believe also that actually Ivan/Tatu were not prepared to face the West. Rules were different, attitudes were different and like sunny poison said "First it was funny but then became tiresome and painful". Maybe this was the main reason behind Ivan's inactivity, boredom and tiredness.

I'm not quite sure why the West got so stuck on the idea that it was really terrible if they weren't lesbians, but only pretending to be. I suppose it was because of political correctness. However, lots of lesbian and gay people didn't seem to care as long as the message was positive. It was more the media that wanted to make a scandal of it.

I think another reason may have been the ATTSS video. It confused people because it was politically incorrect in form (schoolgirls in miniskirts making out!) yet politically correct in content (the people who disapprove are the prisoners, the lesbian couple are the free ones). Political correctness is much less important in the East and maybe people just hadn't been troubled about that. sunny poison, Linda16 - what do you think?

What I think really killed Tatu in the West was the notorious statements by Ivan Shapovalov that the Sun published. I don't think that Ivan understood that you can't joke about paedophilia and child pornography. It was a publicity stunt that backfired dreadfully. At best, it revealed that the person behind the concept was extremely cynical. At worst... well you know what they said.

[Unplugged]

What I think really killed Tatu in the West was the notorious statements by Ivan Shapovalov that the Sun published. I don't think that Ivan understood that you can't joke about paedophilia and child pornography. It was a publicity stunt that backfired dreadfully.

I totally agree. I think he wasn't conscious of how paedophilia is seen in the West. It was truly awful. I'm not sure about this (please correct me if I'm wrong), but I heard that under Russian law there is no distinction between paedophilia and regular pornography. So maybe he wasn't aware that it would be too shocking - I mean, every "shock" has a limit, and he certainly went beyond that limit.

[la aurora]

First of all 'you are welcome' for everyone who said 'thanks'. Not. It was neither boring nor tiresome to type those posts. First of all I felt I was doing the right thing, as many of U provided lots of material I'd never hear and see even living here in Russia. Thank you. And the second thing is that typing those post I got another opportunity to think about what I've seen one more time, do some analysis and put my opinion in the right words, wich was a practice that never harms. The only reason I said I was glad the show was about to end is that I don't feel very comfortable seeing ppl basing their negative opinions on my mostly positive posts. I feel some kind of guiltiness that I may be didn't express myself well enough and my words were the only source u could base ur opinion on. Thats all. No matter what's going on in my tired mind now, you are getting the report on the last episode tomorrow. That's for sure. [well... if I wan't fall asleep waiting for the show of course I'll try my best not to. I promise]

Yeah, sunny poison, your English is really good. I mean, Russians aren't exactly famous for speaking good english

Well... thanks... but first of all my english is not even half as good as it could be if I wasn't so lazy and at least bothered to attend english lessons at my uni. Doesn't matter. Just situation changed a bit in Russia. For a long time foreign languages were taught in USSR but teachers were instructed and taught to make their lessons as boring as possible. You know, we communistic a bit here Then the system failed but teachers... they were still the same... thats why things were changing slowly here. But now when new generation of teachers appeared, young russians speak english pretty good. You can stop any young moscovite and he/she will speak english well enough more likely. My class had 16 students and at least 4 of them spoke english better than me. At my uni the percent of students with good english is even higher. Kids that are 7-10 yo now will speak it even better when reach my age if they aren't better already... give us some time. We have MTV for a bit more than 5 years. We weren't much in computers before. And only now ppl begin to realize that english is something they really can use. It wasn't like this before. When my english teacher at school became mad at us (we were a bit lazy ) she gave us old books for the 6th grade (we were in 11th then) and made us to retell the texts written there (usuall practice for old system), it was a serious punishment, I tell you
I was lucky. I had a great teacher who didn't make me HATE the language like my french and german teachers did. We were just having fun at our lessons talking abot 'sex, drugs, rock-n-roll' (no kidding here). We were USING the language not just LEARNING it. And I need to thank tatysite also. My english improved a lot after I got here.

Huh... Kate, when I was ur age (well... not like I'm much older now, just I'm talking about the time when I was 17 exactly and finished my school), I also thought that the degree was the most important thing on the earth. And 'i'm ready to bite my nails now' (u know what i mean, i think) that I made it the main goal of my life. Just 4 years were enough to understand degree means nothing as far as u aren't happy in life. I don't say U shouldn't study. Do as far as u like it. Just don't see it as 'the most important thing'. There are many other ways to be happy. Now I'd exchange everything for having what Yulia has. I'm not talking about fame. I mean doing something u really like to do in ur life and getting enough money to survive for this. I almost have a degree of the most prestigious uni of the country. And every time someone hears about it, he becomes like 'wow! that's so cool'. And I can't look in his eyes coz *I* know what this degree costs me, and I know I pay this high price for something I don't really need. And degree isn't a measure of someone's intellegance. Trust me in this. I've seen many ppl without good education. They were very interesting to talk with and they were making money ppl with 2 high educations could only dream about.

simon, yeah... ur ideas make sense. It's obvious that Ivan was surprised by reaction TATU got from the West. It was very different from one in Russia. Here nobody got TATU so serious. They were just a pop band, provocative and with this sense of freedome... hard to explain... but nobody was thinking about political correctness here. This thing just doesn't exists in Russia. Anyway, such things as 'paedophilia and child pornography' just didn't pop up in russian minds. TATU were about love, desperation, being missunderstood. Ppl were looking at their facial expressions with emotions and not under their skirts. So, Ivan just didn't realize that ppl on the west took it all really serious. His comments were half-jokes half-provocations. He tried to tell 'hey! this project is about love and fear, life and death and u are talking about paedophilia. What's wrong with you, guys?' But he wasn't smart enough to understand these his comments will be taken not any less serious than the whole thing with TATU. Anyway, I don't think he regrets his own words. He founded TATU to SAY something to ppl. Not for money. So, the audience that refused to understand wasn't a big loose for him. [I don't say girls agree with him on this. Their aims were a bit different, I guess]. He wanted to do something more than just project. It wasn't understood. As well as his words that he doesn't want to record 2nd album. He wanted to record something more than just album, weren't understood also. Everyone is blaming him for delay [Y&L included if the whole Podnebesnaya thing is true], while 'something more than just album' takes a bit more time to do than just usual album

Hello Linda16, really glad to see u here Welcome to the forum
Ur post was just like a breth of fresh air. Finally someone forgets about senseless details and sees the whole concept or at least tries to see... I don't know what's wrong here. Why ppl are so stuck to opposites. Why for some only pure blind love or bitter hating exists? You know... even in black&white movies there are shadows. Oh... ok... i shut up now. I'm a bit tired so can be talking nonsense...

[Kate]

I think that Tatu didn't make it in the West because their music is just not popular there. They are a Euro-dance group. That's is so not in right now.

[cirrus]

katbeidar, euro music has never really been "in" in america... and i don't see much demand for russian pop stars in western europe. they acheived something.

You know... even in black&white movies there are shadows.

Very wise words, sunny poison It's amazing how something as general as a pop band can be looked at so differently based on the culture, the mentality. thanks for your reports. when i start to get drowned in my own thoughts, you show us a different way to look at things.