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01-08-2006, 23:27 | #21 | |
Sad Little Monkey
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. Last edited by freddie; 04-08-2006 at 12:01. |
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02-08-2006, 00:45 | #22 | ||
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So what's the rule here? Israel can strike at will on Arabs outside its borders, but Arabs can't strike back on Israeli soil? Please. Second, from an Arab point of view, Israel is occupying Arab lands, therefore the Israeli army is an occupying force and a legitimate target. Resistance fighters capturing occupying soldiers is within what's acceptable during a war, retaliating on civilians to 'punish' that attack on soldiers is *not*, during WWII the German army was also regularly retaliating on French civilians each time the French resistance attacked German soldiers, it was a war crime then, it is a war crime now. Quote:
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02-08-2006, 02:21 | #23 |
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Wasn't it Hizbollah that "kidnapped these two soldiers"? Well, if I'm not getting it wrong, Hizbollah is a terror organization like f.ex Hamas, but without being in government in Lebanon? Well... Israel isn't fighting the _organization_ but all of Lebanon because people could potentially hide Hizbollah-people..... They're killing bunch of innocent and even destroyed a FN-base that has been in the area for decades! And then their FN-ambassador have this super-arrogant speech about the whole issue. And when people here at home criticize them for their warfare their ambassador in norway says it's anti-semitism and blasphemy while being extreme hypocritical Gawd, how I wish that USA wasn't being their protective big brother. Or how I'd wish that FN never made the country in the first place. It has brought nothing but sorrow and misery between the western and the islamic parts of the world.
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What I Think Tank I have started a blog that aims to concentrate its content on politics, economics and history, with a keen interest in American politics and the American tradition of Libertarianism and Austrian Economics. |
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02-08-2006, 02:29 | #24 |
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Why do we keep saying "Arab?" Which Arabs are we talking about here?
Are you assuming that they are all united, and that borders within the Middle East are arbitrary or something? Because I can assure you that Arabs are not, have never been and will never be united for anything. The Pan-Arab movement dreamt by Nasser is long dead. It died when Jordan stuck its neck out Palestinians by housing them and fighting on behalf of them only to have Palestinians (the Fedayeen) attempt to overthrow the Kingdom. It also died in Beirut when Palestinians (PLO) tried to claim it as their own by further splintering the religious groups during the civil war. Iraq's invasion of Kuwait is another fine example of Arab unity. And with the war now in Iraq, the sheer fact that Shiites are dying more than anyone else including the occupying force can give just you an illustration of how much they hate each other. And you can see it now with this war. It is the Shiites that are fighting Israelis in Lebanon, not the Sunnis, Druze, or Christians, just the Shiites. Notice how the Sunnis are reacting throughout the Middle East, dead silence. They sure as shit don't want Shiite revival, especially facing the potential of Iran exanding all across the Middle East. Tells you something about the "Arab" unity when at least half of Arabs would rather Israel exist than let Shiites become more prominent in the region than they already are. Hezbollah is nothing but a bunch of shit disturbers. They are willing to throw an entire country into another war where most don't even support it, and what's worse, know exactly how fragile the country is in that the gov't can't prevent it and will most probably it'll be even harder for the country to bounce back from this compared to before. What do they care anyway, they are more allied to Syria and Iran than to Lebanon. |
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02-08-2006, 06:05 | #25 | |||
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I still think Israelis are silly for letting themselves get provoked by it to react in such a manner. It'll only fuel the fire for future conflicts as extremists get stronger and stronger during this conflict (and any conflict for that matter). But I don't think for a minute not them or the US had destroying Lebanon on their agenda any time soon. If anything Lebanon was a success story in the Middle East. A blue-print of how a moderate Arab country should operate - despite all the divisions between Arabs and other religious groups in the country. Unfortunately they're being taken hostage by Hezbollah militias (which is partly their fault for letting it in the first place). Quote:
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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02-08-2006, 07:32 | #26 | ||
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02-08-2006, 13:28 | #27 | ||
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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02-08-2006, 14:50 | #28 | ||||
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The only law that matters in the Middle-East is the American law, either you agree with the US and you are good, or you disagree and you are evil, as simple as that. This brilliant logic leads to obvious double standards: if Israel uses terrorism to achieve its goals, it's right and justified, if Arabs do the same, it's wrong and evil; if Israel annexes Arab territories, it's right and fair, if Arabs try to regain those territories, it's wrong and illegal; if Arabs captures a few Israeli soldiers, it's wrong and criminal, if Israel retaliates by killing hundreds of civilians, it's right and justified; if anyone sends weapons to Lebanon so they can defend themselves, it's illegal and evil, if the US sends tons of high-tech weapons to Israel so they can coninue the attack, it's right and justified. Quote:
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As a side note, beyond the murder of UN mediator Folke Bernadotte by the Israelis, people who think Israel is run by angels may want to check those pages on Irgun and Lehi, the terrorist arm of Israel in the early days. Those Israeli terrorists murdered hundreds of people and were of course never punished for their actions, quite the contrary, most of them like Yitzhak Shamir became prominent politicians or formed the Mossad (the organization that now conducts Israel's terrorist actions), another example that 'terrorism' is often a question of perspective, if you win you are a hero, if you lose you are a criminal. The hypocrisy being of course that israel which was built on terrorism now condems Arabs for doing exactly the same. |
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02-08-2006, 15:42 | #29 | ||
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I would say poor Lebanon....who is paying for the Syrians... So, all depends of your points of view: -Or you think that Israël has no reason and no right to exist and in a such case...Israël has all wrong. -Or you think that may be it was a mistake at the origin: the artificial creation of Israël but now Israël is here, it has right to exist....but in a such case, I personnaly think that Syria and iran should have been the direct targets of Israël. Cause Lebanon was a peaceful country before to be taken as hostage by Syria. Of course Syrian army has left Lebanon some months ago but Syrians are everywhere in the administration...everywhere...Lebanon still belongs to Syria. Just some thoughs: I disagree with what Israël is doing right now to Lebanon. Palestinians, instead of trying to install themselves in the part of territories which were given to them and to try to get more territories thanks to the international negociations, have prefered to vote for the resistance by weapons...so...there is no hope. It's clear now that Israël doesn't want a Palestinian state. But who would like to have a neighbor who just wants to kill you? Now if you think it's good to destroy and erase Israël , do it in giving credits to all the attentats against it....may be the destruction of Israël will happen in the future... Patrick, even if I totally condamn all those dead people in Lebanon too...you who are so good with numbers....could you tell me how many people the "guerilla" has killed of civilians in Irak until now please? Why do you accept that, Pat ? I mean I've never seen one post from you condamning all those murders each day in Irak....each day you have 65 deaths, or 15 days....or....in the civil population. It's more than 800 persons now. By the way Lebanon was an artificially built country too if my memory is good, isn't it? ~~~ Israëlians kill their enemies. Palestinans/resistants kill their enemies. But people who kill civilians from their own camp....sorry I can't understand that . |
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02-08-2006, 17:02 | #30 | ||
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Now i'm expressing my opposition to the destruction of Lebanon, and once that destruction is over, i'll shut up and let the pro-Israelis rejoice over their victory. And when Syria and Iran are attacked by the US, i'll express one again my opposition. I don't believe in that new 'world order' that the US wants to impose on all of us by force, and i'll prostest at each step of that madness. As for protesting against the chaos that follows each of those steps, it's pointless since it is the direct result of the initial attacks and way too late to do anything. Quote:
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02-08-2006, 17:54 | #31 | |||
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When you see people murdered each day, I don't think "it's pointless" to react. Can we really speak here about a "civil war" by the way? Or some of those attentats aren't the acts of some people who have never lived in Irak before? So can't we call that a "new order world" too with an islamist domination instead of an american domination? |
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02-08-2006, 19:05 | #32 |
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It's so obvious that Iran supports Hezbollah so next target is going to be Iran for being destroyed.
But what's the civilians fault? Killing civilians is going to make anything better? |
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02-08-2006, 22:04 | #33 | ||
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That's heavy accusations... I call that making fun of, and in a fairly presumptuous way. Quote:
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03-08-2006, 18:31 | #34 | ||
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What is happening in Iraq now is exactly what i thought would happen before the war started. So many people who knew the region very well had warned the Americans that this war would be a disaster and only bring chaos and destruction, but they went for it anyway and now chaos is there. But i have no interest in saying 'i told you so, look at the mess you've made' since it only leads to even more angry reactions from the pro-war supporters than before the war happened. Quote:
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03-08-2006, 18:38 | #35 | |
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03-08-2006, 19:36 | #36 | |
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I don't agree - lots of people around the world are angry and upset of the civilian losses but after a while you can't react as forcefully. We've allowed the American occupation in Iraq to continue without a practical objective and without a justifiable cause, other that the generic rhetoric for the "war on terror" - That was a lot worse. We're clearly losing the fight. At least that is collateral damage and it's "regrettable". While terrorists target civilians specifically. So there is a bit of a difference there - or not? The objective is more tangible in this case - Hezbollah. |
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03-08-2006, 20:25 | #37 |
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Pat, don't be mad at me...you know it's a little game, here, between you and me when we speak about politics...because ours points of views are different...but I have absolutely nothing against you.
I've never created a politics thread and I don't think I'll do. It's often you or Freddie who are at the origin of these threads and I think it's a good thing that they could exist thanks to you. You say that I'm pro-Israël but I'll make you notice that I have condemned this invasion of Lebanon above. You think I'm pro-America...I would say I feel myself more as an "Anti "Anti-America"."..which is a little bit different for me. Here, I've just evocated the fact that If 1 American kills another person, you say it's a scandal. If an Israeli kills another person, you say it's a scandal. And you're right, cause each stolen life is a scandal. But I've just pointed the fact that when several dozens of persons are assassinated by their "brothers", there is no comments against those murderers. When one person is condemned to the Death Penalty in the States, there are lots of posts but nobody condemns all the Deaths and all the violated Human Rights in Iran. So as I've already said it, I have just the feeling that the critics are very hard (and sometimes it's justified even to my eyes... ) in "one direction" but that we have very often "the silent" about the same and even worse barbarian acts if they have as origin "the other camp". Offtop: Here,about Irak, you've said again that it was the fault of America but you haven't condemned yet these atrocities. Americans were may be at the origin, but they aren't the ones who are bombing in the markets... |
Last edited by nath; 04-08-2006 at 10:29. |
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03-08-2006, 21:02 | #38 | |
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If I recall correctly there wasn't anybody active today in this entire forum who supported the American invasion of Iraq. Just because some of us kind of support Israel in this particular matter doesn't mean we support every attack on Arabs and Muslims in general. Furthermore, the current American administration does not represent the sentiment Americans as a whole have towards the war. They didn't support it in the beginning and they sure as shit don't support it now. The last election was won by half of the US's sheer hatred of gays not through the war. If anything hate US's tendency to let homophobia and utter short-sightedness outweigh common sense. I know I do. As for this whole thing, when it comes to Palestine and Israel, by default I tend to side with Palestine because in the end the simple fact that people cannot go back to their land because some other people are there is fucked up beyond recognition. But my support is waning. Every since Israel pulled out of Gaza there hasn't been one day where Palestinians haven't launched rockets into Israel and pulling out of Lebanon six years ago being seen as weakness by Hezbollah. nath is right, the fear of being "driven to the sea" by your neighbours actually being realized is what drives Israelis to this kind of over-reaction. If every Arab laid his/her weapon down there would be peace in the Middle East, if every Israeli did that there'd be another genocide. All these years of violence from Palestinians and what has been gained here? You think Israel is going to leave and return to the welcoming, Jew-loving arms of Iran, Iraq, Poland, Russia, etc? Give me a break. Maybe, just maybe Palestinians could try negotiatng for land. Who knows, perhaps the promise of not killing Jews may sound attractive to Israelis. |
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03-08-2006, 21:09 | #39 | ||
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03-08-2006, 21:57 | #40 | ||
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Don't get me wrong, I have every sympathy for the jews and their history. I don't wanna sound like some religion-hating soab, but I just don't think making Israel was a good idea. I believe there could've been better ways of handling the situation. And sry, I don't want to drag your country through the mud. I have nothing against America or americans. I admire USA actually, but it's a fact that your government acts like they're world police and stick their nose in everybody's business, and defends Israel at any costs, careless of what the rest of the world thinks. If US had supported UN and pressured Israel to tear down the wall and move back the borders to the original UN plan, then perhaps we could have a more peaceful situation down there. I've said it before, and I say it again; I wish Sharon could've finished his work. You can say whatever you like about that guy, but I think he was actually trying to fix things at the end of his career. And even if he was an asshole at times the new guy now is much worse |
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