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America is over the top


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Old 10-01-2006, 02:22   #21
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america is ONE country. there is quite a bit of bashing for just one country. negative or positive that it has quite the influence. that is, people are bashing or loving it for one reason or another. and of all the other countries in the world, US is the biggest target here. i don't see anyone bashing china, or japan, or blaming the japanese for the rape of nanking, or germany or hitler for the holocaust, or france for not speaking up in the whole terrorist campaign because they didn't want to jeopardize their business of selling weapons to countries such as iraq, or many countries in south america for their fucked up systems of developed democracies....


over the top? just because america is more diverse than many countries doesn't make it bad. so what if diversity of races, beliefs, and cultures is conducive to many practices, businesses, etc.. that some consider over the top? it doesn't make america anything, in fact, it shows that america can provide for all kinds of HUMANS, not americans. plus, germany shows porn at 4 in the afternoon. isn't that excessive? no one mentioned that yet.

and about american cars. not all american cars are gigantic. there are certain lines that are big, such as trucks and suvs, but most people in the US drive and many used to need cars to ship and transport things for individual needs. that's how the whole truck thing started anyway. that is, nowadays you can't really survive outside of a major city without a car. people prefer something big and comfy. what can you say? it's not over the top. it's human preference. we're all human. and to label certain things as over the top is useless. the need for porn is over the top. the need for endless technological conveniences is over the top. it is an eternal game to measure things as excessive because human beings are indulgent, selfish, and many of their desires is over the top. it's a waste of space and energy to try to see which desires are and which aren't.
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Old 10-01-2006, 02:40   #22
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Ok there is a little thing called the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution that states all Citizens have the right to BARE ARMS... call me dumb but it stems from a need to have a militia because certain countries *cough*England*cough* couldn't leave us alone after the Revolutionary War... Does the War of 1812 ring any bells for you Europeans? And the right to bare arms has stuck because that is the precedent in our country.

A person is an American if they are a citizen of this country and or call themselves an American. Period end of story. The US has a very different idea about citizenship and ethnicity. Example, Lux is Chinese, I am Irish and German, but we are both Americans. Ethnicity has nothing to do with it. It's a secondary trait that means nothing unless you are applying to school.

So here's a question for all of you non-americans... what makes you English, French, Slovenian, German, Italian or Turkish? Is it your citizenship or where your parents and grandparents were born?
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Old 10-01-2006, 02:42   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khartoun2004
Ok there is a little thing called the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution that states all Citizens have the right to BARE ARMS... call me dumb but it stems from a need to have a militia because certain countries *cough*England*cough* couldn't leave us alone after the Revolutionary War... Does the War of 1812 ring any bells for you Europeans? And the right to bare arms has stuck because that is the precedent in our country.

A person is an American if they are a citizen of this country and or call themselves an American. Period end of story. The US has a very different idea about citizenship and ethnicity. Example, Lux is Chinese, I am Irish and German, but we are both Americans. Ethnicity has nothing to do with it. It's a secondary trait that means nothing unless you are applying to school.

So here's a question for all of you non-americans... what makes you English, French, Slovenian, German, Italian or Turkish? Is it your citizenship or where your parents and grandparents were born?
bravo. yeah, thanks for that.

i'm so sick of people here bashing america as though they've lived here, grew up here, and understand the culture and society here, even when the most they've ever done is visited for short times.
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Old 10-01-2006, 03:36   #24
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just like everything in life nothing is absolute. america isn't all bad and it isnt all good. coming from a 3rd world country where i had to heat up my hot water for my morning shower..yet i was considered rich because my father was a successful engineer and people across the street still lived in a hut made of trees and branches.. im very grateful to live in this country. i definately critisize it at times..but i do my own share of defending.

although i dont consider myself an american, just a willing participant (aberboobie and fitch is hot ), i very much appreciate what this country has given to me. so there is no point in trying to defend america to people who havent lived here, im just trying to stress the fact that america isnt all bad.
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Old 10-01-2006, 04:16   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lux
france for not speaking up in the whole terrorist campaign because they didn't want to jeopardize their business of selling weapons to countries such as iraq
That's what American media and the Bush administration have been feeding the American public with, and it's a total distortion of the truth, France is just as committed to fighting terrorism as any other western country. In 1985/86 there were about 15 terrorist bombings in Paris perpetrated by muslim extremists, we know perfectly well that terrorism is a threat and our secret services are fighting it with other western countries, but that doesn't mean that we agree with bombing and invading countries that have nothing to do with terrorism, killing an Arab and his family simply because you've been attacked by another Arab makes absolutely no sense.

France is fighting terrorism, but yes, we were opposed to the invasion of Iraq because Iraq had no relation whatsoever with muslim terrorism (Iraq was a laic communist-like country, the exact opposite of an islamic state, it had no connection with muslim extremists), Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction, Iraq had no military nuclear program, Iraq had no terrorist training camps, Iraq was not a threat, that's what France and Germany said at the UN security council before the invasion of Iraq and we were right since the US has been unable to find anything of what it said it would find in Iraq, and yet this country has been bombed, invaded, annihilated… for nothing.

I actually used to be relatively in line with American policy, i grew up during the cold war, a time when you knew that the red army could be at your door the next morning (if they had not vitrified your city first), i supported the Atlantic alliance and was generally close to US views, at least in terms of international policy.
But after the fall of communist regimes, US foreign policy started to get out of hand and i found myself increasingly in disagreement with the US.

At the time of the 9/11 attacks, France was still very close to the US though, and French people mourned and were just as shocked by the attacks as American people were… But then Bush (and many American people with him) became totally insane… "I am the leader of a new crusade against the forces of evil"… I mean, wtf?!? And the US decided that they had to invade a bunch of countries for no good reasons.
And when France opposed to it at the UN, the French bashing started on every level of the American nation, the government, the media, TV stations, newspapers, web sites, even movies and TV shows, everywhere, not to mention the infamous renaming of things with 'French' in it to 'Liberty'… We were treated like trash just because we dared to disagree with the almighty US and refused to participate to the invasion of a country that had nothing to do with the terrorism the US was supposedly fighting, because we didn't want to bomb a country to destroy weapons of mass destruction that never existed.
So yeah, i have kept some resentment from that period and the loads of insults targeting French people that i've read, seen, and heard everyday for months in American media, especially since we were actually right and the Bush administration was bullshitting 24/7.

And yes, invading a random Arab country (well, not totally random of course, it has yummy oil to feed SUVs) just because you've been attacked by a dozen Arabs from another Arab country is definitely over the top.
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Old 10-01-2006, 05:06   #26
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So why call the american members of the forums "over the top" when it's only their president that's the fucktard?
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Old 10-01-2006, 07:15   #27
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predictable, good. and no, that's not what the bush administration fed to the general public. you think the american public knows anything about france other than how they have freedom fries and great fashion? PLEASE. even if the bush administration did say that to the media, WHICH THEY DIDN'T, the general public wouldn't know it anyway.
Christ. this thread is a waste of space. it's not even funny. the president isn't the only asshole. his administration is. and quite a few members of the republican party that are in cohorts with him.
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Old 10-01-2006, 08:41   #28
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haku (interesting, i still call you haku) ... i think it's funny cause to me you sound sooo american at times. but what does that ever mean? i've never known.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amber
That's what American media and the Bush administration have been feeding the American public with, and it's a total distortion of the truth
i bet you could say that about most medias... i wonder what the French media has to say about us and how truthful it is.... :: ponders ::

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Old 10-01-2006, 08:51   #29
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amber - you sound very american. what you say is what an american would say about america. so. yeah. american media is especially messed up but if you want to compare with other countries, theirs isn't great either.

i have no idea why people here bash the US so much. what is with this preconceived aversion? at least americans are open minded enough to be over the top. at least there are all kinds of crazy people here and not just the narrow minded ones.
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Old 10-01-2006, 08:55   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madeldoe
just like everything in life nothing is absolute. america isn't all bad and it isnt all good. coming from a 3rd world country where i had to heat up my hot water for my morning shower..yet i was considered rich because my father was a successful engineer and people across the street still lived in a hut made of trees and branches.. im very grateful to live in this country. i definately critisize it at times..but i do my own share of defending.

although i dont consider myself an american, just a willing participant (aberboobie and fitch is hot ), i very much appreciate what this country has given to me. so there is no point in trying to defend america to people who havent lived here, im just trying to stress the fact that america isnt all bad.
, yeah, sounds good to me, except my mother is the engineer, my dad is a scientist... oh, and i dont agree about A&F
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Old 10-01-2006, 09:10   #31
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if only others can see this. this country is tolerant and accepting of many cultures and races and that is one of its greatest attributes. instead, people bash it like it is the shit of the earth when so many have taken much from what this country has offered, and what it has been conducive to. building and developing character, learning and assimilating and coming across many different races and backgrounds. i appreciate growing up here. in china during winters there wouldn't be any hot water sometimes so people went to communal showers. i am humbled my parents raised me in the US over any other country, particularly china. i love this country because it is great and that doesn't mean i think all other countries are shit, i just like this one. i can still objectively compare countries which is what i hoped this thread would do but no, alas it is all about bashing the US when most of the people don't know much about this country other than what they see through movies, the media, and hearsay.
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Old 10-01-2006, 10:22   #32
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I agree with madeldoe. Nothing is really absolute. I think America's problems lies in layers - there's a majority (I'd probably say around 250 million) people who're good (relatively), yet the country and it's economical interests are being run by an oligarchy of ruthless rich old men (so the exact term would be a plutocracy). The whole thing with agressive foreign policies, ridiculous federal legislature, corporate scandals going all the way to the top of the executive chain of goverment, inadequate funds provided for education... everything is a direct or indirect result of that. A few rich old men running a system of turbo capitalism in which nothing else but capital gain matters. Slowly a system develops where only a handful of people are privileged to enter that sacred society of rich - which is only emphasized by huge tuition fees (I think education should be free for all, but that's a different topic altogether).

As far as guns are concerened.... my standpoint is that most common people using guns do indeed use them for self-protection and even if they restricted uses of fire-arms most criminals would find a way to get their hands on them anyway. I don't really know what the big deal is anyway - it's not such a huge bother getting a weapon in Europen countries neither. And come to think of it: a crowbar is just as leathal in the arms of a stupid European or American who's out to destroy the world, right?

SUVs... yeah admittedly that is a problem but from what I know GM almost went bankrupt after the sales of SUVs plummeted during the oil crisis. But lets not fool ourselve that Europeans don't buy their fare share of BMW X5s, MB M Classes or Range Rovers and other useless gass guzzers, which spend their existance driving on motorways rather then off-road. It's a global trend of stupidity which is a direct result of people having too much money to spend and too much time on their hands.

Sure I can't say how the country is as a whole since I've only visited 2 states (and from what I saw in my limited experience Americans are the kindest bunch I've ever come across - Europeans are total rude idiots in comparison), but imo it's completely impossible to generalize. All we see is that mockery of a leadership they have with a corrupt goverment and a puppet for a president. But from what I gather there are ennormous differences between different federal states and (imo) Conneticut and Utah have as much in common as Portugal and Germany (except for the langauge of course). So to make big general statements about a country of 300 million people just based on their foreign policies and from basic stereotypes is ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as people thinking how all the "Soviets" in the former USSR were evil and out to destroy the world.

EDIT:
Just a thought:
"Good and kind people outnumber all others by thousands to one. The tragedy of human history lies in the enormous potential for destruction in rare acts of evil, not in the high frequency of evil people."

--Stephen Boyd, Evolutionary Biologist Harvard University
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Old 10-01-2006, 21:09   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freddie
it's not such a huge bother getting a weapon in Europen countries neither.
It's almost impossible for a regular citizen to get a firearm in western European countries, not to mention totally illegal under any circumstances. All kinds of automatic weapons are banned, even revolvers that use real bullets are illegal, only 'alarm' revolvers can be bought (and you can't kill anyone with that), and even alarm revolvers need a permit (not easy to get, you need a valid reason) and a registration to the police. Even hunting rifles can't be bought by just anyone, you need a hunting license which is not easy to get, and you'll have to register to the local police (they'll take your picture, finger prints, gun serial number, etc.). The reality is that almost nobody has a gun in western Europe, not even all police officers have a gun, certain categories are unarmed, and the situations where a police officer is allowed to shoot are extremely limited and regulated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freddie
a crowbar is just as leathal
A crowbar can be lethal, but it takes much more determination to kill with a crowbar than with a gun, and you can't kill 20 people in a few minutes efficiently and from a distance with a crowbar, whereas it's totally possible with a nice automatic rifle that you can buy freely in any American gun store.
The number of people killed by firearms is of a few hundreds each year in Europe whereas it's 10th of thousands in the US, so banning guns does make a huge difference in the number of homicides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freddie
But lets not fool ourselve that Europeans don't buy their fare share of BMW X5s, MB M Classes or Range Rovers and other useless gass guzzers
Yeah, but you know that even when the same car is available in Europe and the US (which happens rarely, who in the US knows what a Renault Scenic is and who in Europe knows what a Ford F-150 is), it's not equipped with the same engines, the American versions have much bigger engines whereas the European ones have smaller (often diesel) ones. Most cars in Europe have 4-cylinder engines and anything bigger than that is a small percentage whereas in the US most cars have 6 or 8-cylinder engines, not to mention that a good half of cars sold in Europe have diesel engines that consume much less petrol.
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Old 10-01-2006, 21:25   #34
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Amber you just shot yourself in the foot. Automatic Weapons of any kind are illegal under any circumstance in the United States. Even certain semi-automatic pistols are illegal. To legally own a gun in the US, you must complete weapons safety courses and a minmum 500 hours at a shooting range, get a permit, have not been convicted of a crime and the guns must be registered with State Police. To buy a pistol, you have to wait 21 days while they run a background check on you. To own a pistol you must also be at least 21 years old. So it's not as easy to get a gun as you might think.

Also, Canada has more guns than the US.
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Old 10-01-2006, 21:41   #35
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Didn't get a chance to read the whole thread yet, but I saw this:

Quote:
[About who is American] Anyone who was born & grew up there
and I must say I disagree. I was born and raised in Sweden (even though I lived 4-5 years in Poland aswell) and I am definitely not Swedish. So yeah.

PS. I thought America was a continent.
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Old 10-01-2006, 22:33   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenBee
Didn't get a chance to read the whole thread yet, but I saw this:


and I must say I disagree. I was born and raised in Sweden (even though I lived 4-5 years in Poland aswell) and I am definitely not Swedish. So yeah.

PS. I thought America was a continent.
Queenbee that is the difference between European culture and American Culture. I stated before ethnicity is not a factor in determining your nationality in the US, it's a person's birthplace and where they grow up.

In Europe it's all about ethnicity and birthplace is meaningless.
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Old 11-01-2006, 01:26   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darje
So why call the american members of the forums "over the top" when it's only their president that's the fucktard?
Because nations have the presidents they deserve
And the U.S.A deserves Bush ( no confusion, America is not just the US of A. )
For me they represent the modern empire trying to rule over the world in any way it can be feasible these days; similar to the way historical long lasting empires like the Roman Empire, and England used to do. They cannot go out and force their will by brutality, not even the former empires did so, so they use methods to subvert other nations that they deem weak. Their very own longivity as an empire depends upon that. When their interests are directly threatened - like vs Saddam in the first Gulf War - they use sheer force; but only in such cases...it usually trains and arms the people that turn against it, so its enemies are usually its own creation.

Of course that doesn't mean that the US is not the best place to live in and that it's not the most democratic place in the world right now etc etc. It could be fantastic for its people; but it doesn't concern us who are not its people. So we have to see things from the right perspective.
As far as I'm concerned my last hope for America was lost with the unprovoked and unjustifiable war against Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khartoun2004
In Europe it's all about ethnicity and birthplace is meaningless.
That is totally not true , where did you get that? Birthplace determines your nationality everywhere. So it seems that Americans don't know Europe as much as we don't know America.

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Old 11-01-2006, 06:59   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyretto
That is totally not true , where did you get that? Birthplace determines your nationality everywhere. So it seems that Americans don't know Europe as much as we don't know America.
I disagree, your citizenship determines your nationality at least in North America it does. I was born in the UAE, and even if I stayed there for the rest of my life I would never become a citizen. The same policy applies to most oil rich countries in the Middle East.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Amber
And yes, invading a random Arab country (well, not totally random of course, it has yummy oil to feed SUVs) just because you've been attacked by a dozen Arabs from another Arab country is definitely over the top.
Oh that's rich, would you propose that they adopt the French approach by which instead, 17% of the population vote for a fascist in the round (Chirac got 20%; a three point differential)!!!
Say what you will about Americans, but never would the American racist fucktard Pat Buchanan ever get that many votes, I don't think he even got over 1% during '94, (or was it '98?).
In fact I distinctly remember the reaction many Americans had right after 9/11; almost instinctively trying to establish bridges with the Muslim community, attempting to educate other Americans about how the attacks were not reflective of Islam and how Islam is a religion of peace*. Never would they make enemies out of their own people, and if they do they don't need a riot to make them change their ways.

I see people arguing this from two different standpoints, either from a country's domestic or foreign policy. I personally think the true value of a nation comes from its domestic policy, foreign comes second. The US's foriegn policy is shitty, but so is every other country. I'm sure if you examine France's, the UK's, Russia's and even Canada's foreign policy with the same scrutiny as you do the States you'd find some pretty reprehensible things.


*And even I thought that was bullshit.

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Old 11-01-2006, 11:03   #39
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can't we all just agree to disagree. there is no point in arguing over nothing. this thread is nothing but a bash-all-things-american thread and it's useless. there is no real debate, just people trying to defend this country against arguments that are scattered all over the place. it is endless. people will just pick and choose from each other's posts what they want to argue.
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Old 11-01-2006, 13:19   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl
I disagree, your citizenship determines your nationality at least in North America it does. I was born in the UAE, and even if I stayed there for the rest of my life I would never become a citizen. The same policy applies to most oil rich countries in the Middle East.
Well, your example is of an Arab ( muslim ) country. We were talking about Europe, maybe I used a generalisation but it is the same all over Europe and in every civilised society it's the same. Ok, I presume UAE are a civilised society too but their mentality is different, and so are their laws. Queenbee was saying that she doesn't feel Swedish, although she does have the Swedish nationality. I'm sure it's the same for millions of other people who are torn between different cultures.

The place of birth detemines your nationality, haven't you heard of people abusing that system before (ie. moving to a different country just to give birth so that their children can bear the nationality of the place they briefly reside in, lol )

And about Lux's last comment: I don't think this is a bashing of all things American, at least not in my point of view. As a matter of fact I might be visiting in 2007 if that makes any difference.. We're discussing the way the U.S. has presented itself to the world since the end of WWII and that does not draw a very rosy picture. Lately it has gone even worse under the George Bush's leadership.
I think that the US of A will have to re-evaluate the way it deals with the rest of the planet; after all, we're all in this together.
We'll have to try and see things from the standpoint of those who don't necessarily aspire to exercise ther influence upon others, but wish to coexist in peace.
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