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Ideologic differences: Terrorism


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Old 16-05-2004, 05:13   #1
dollparts3000 dollparts3000 is offline
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Ideologic differences: Terrorism

forre: This thread was started by splitting the one about Shapovalov's new video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LenochkaO
I wouldn't say that he's "promoting" terrorism as such. But he is making light of something terrible for the purposes of entertainment and that has to be classed as bad taste, at the very least.



Ummm...after the recent photographs and allegations about what's been going on in Iraq under US rule, that's a bit pot calling the kettle black.
I don't really think this is the place for discussion of geopolitics, though. It's a complicated, sensitive subject not suited to sweeping generalisations.
Pot calling the kettle black??? Yeah right. Sure, the US has done some bad things but nothing in comparison to arab countries. And, anyway there are always bad guys in any army! That's the nature of war. Sometimes there are horrible guys who go to war because they like to kill other people. You think the Russian army is any different? That's a fact of any war. There are always going to be bad apples. And most of those pictures of the so called Americans brutalizing Iraqi prisoners are fakes and they have been reported to be fakes by the British. The fact that the American government speaks out against it shows their difference from the Arab's. How often have you ever heard an arab leader of a country apologize for mistreating prisoners?? There are people who have been in prison in arab countries for over 30 years for speaking out against the regime. There's no such thing as fairness in the arab world. There are no fair trials and there is little justice.

And if you think that you can compare the American army to the brutalities of the arabic rebels, arabic terrorists and arabic countries in general.

A man got his head cut off on t.v. for fuck sake! He didn't even get a trial and he wasn't even a soldiers!!! He was an innocent civilian.
They cut off your hands for stealing there.
Arabs have ripped Christians and jews apart in the street with their bare hands. (That Christian masacre)
It is legally acceptable to stone women to death.
A person can be kidnapped and put in prison for no reason.
A woman who only looks at another man while married may be stoned to death.
His family can be tortured for no reason
A family can strap their kid down to the table (legally) and genitally mutilate her without and drugs.
In Iraq, there were legal rape rooms where women and children were raped.
There are numerous other tortures performed there like drowning where an arabic guard in prison shoved a hose down a prisoners throat and drowned him.
The fatwa for Jihad calls for the death of all non-muslims including non-religious muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindu's etc. etc. It is in the Koran.
The Koran encourages muslims to seek out the death of all non-muslims however there are moderate muslims who don't take this part of the Koran so seriously. I know some moderate muslims who aren't hateful but they are aware that the Koran calls for such an act. If you don't believe me, type: Jihad and Koran or Quaran in google.com

I know people from Iran who live in fear of being kidnapped in the night. They are scared of their own government and the people who live around them. Yes, there are some good people but many of the people who live in the arab world are fucking nuts and full of hatred.

Go there. Go to Saudi Arabia or any other country. You would probably meet the same fate of Nicolas Berg or be sold into a brothel.

You're right this isn't the place for politics so I'll stop talking about it. I am not anti-arab. I have met some very nice muslims and Christinan arabs who live in North America. I listen to them tell me stories about their country and many of the people in it. It scares me what I hear. I am scared but they have nightmares and they will probably live in fear for the rest of their life.

They know that not all men are good and that there is evil in this world because they have seen evil. Many Europeans and North Americans don't even know what evil looks like because many haven't seen it to that extent. They are so used to Hollywood movies where everythings black and white. It's hard for me to understand the hatred and evil that exists in the middle east because I haven't seen it but they have and they have known people who were kidnapped in the night for saying something anti-polical in the street. They have looked into the face of evil.

If Shapalov is trying to promote terrorism, he is a loser and a sick fuck
Tatu had something positive to say.
This is just sick and disgusting.

Last edited by forre; 19-05-2004 at 10:19.
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Old 16-05-2004, 05:59   #2
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[still on the OT:] Arabs huh? Quite generalized... [exiting OT]

Bout Shapovalov: Dude, get a life!
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Old 16-05-2004, 06:46   #3
RowerB RowerB is offline
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If I said what I think about the USA and their Israeli paymasters, I’d probably get banned, dollparts3000.

As far as this vid is concerned, I’d like to see it, or at least have a more detailed description of it, before deciding whether it promotes terrorism.
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Old 16-05-2004, 11:09   #4
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Wow, what a display of ignorance dollparts3000, thanks for sharing your views on geopolitics, "Arabs are evil!", that's deep...

But i'm used to your style, i'll invite people to visit this thread where you shared some of your other views on a totally different subject:
http://forum.tatysite.net/showthread.php?t=6517


I'm not going to waste my time replying in detail because you've obviously been totally brainwashed by US propaganda.

The Arab world has been a center of civilization for centuries, many scientific discoveries were made by Arab scientists during the Middle Ages. The Arab world is now going through some dark ages, it happens to every civilizations.

The root of most problems in the Middle East is the unconditional support of the US to Israeli policy and the oppression of Palestinian Arabs. If the US had not supported this policy, the world would be a more peaceful place today.

An American was decapitated by Arab terrorists...
At least 10 Iraqis died while being "interrogated" by US soldiers.

A thousand innocent civilians died in the World Trade Center attack...
At least 5 thousands innocent Iraqi civilians died because of US bombings during the invasion of Iraq.

Political opponents are imprisoned in Arab countries...
The US have illegally imprisoned thousands of people in Guantanamo, no legal grounds for the arrests, no charges, no lawyers, no trials. The day Guantanamo was created the US ceased to be a democracy and are in no position to give lessons to anyone, even more so now that the US are torturing prisoners of war.

Arab countries have barbaric laws based on a misinterpretation of the Koran...
The US are still using death penalty which is also barbaric, and even minors or mentally ill people can be executed.

I could go on...


Quote:
I know people from Iran [...] many of the people who live in the arab world are fucking nuts and full of hatred.
One last thing... Iran is not an Arab country, Iranians are Persians and part of the Indo-European family. All European and Indian people (with a few exceptions like Finns, Hungarians, or Dravidians) as well as their languages are all descendants of an ancient people that lived in northern Iran 12 thousand years ago. Persians are direct descendants of that ancient people and not at all related to Arabs, either ethnically or linguistically.
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Old 16-05-2004, 12:17   #5
transcend transcend is offline
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Hmmmmm, I'm hesitating to stick my oar in here and I haven't got Haku's impressive geographical and historical knowledge (I bow my head to the French education system) but I will say this. I am a very definitely left-leaning and liberal minded, educated woman whose sexual leanings definitely veer towards the bi. As such, I can't deny that the rise of Islamic fundamentalism both terrifies and enrages me - because of its sheer, bloody wrongheadedness. My own spiritual beliefs are probably closest to Zen Buddhism and I was pretty appalled to see those ancient statues of Buddha being destroyed in Afghanistan a few years back...but here's the difference - I'm not about to go wreaking havoc against those who supported the Taliban, in some crazy act of vengeance. Statues are statues, but human life is sacred, to be cherished above all - precisely as the purported Buddha taught.

I will profess my ignorance of the Quran - I don't know about the true nature of the Jihad personally, but I know there is much debate about whether it is to be interpreted as a physical or spiritual battle. So to get to the point here, I can actually take everybody's opinion on board. As Haku and a few others here have stated, I think there are obvious historical, political and economic injustices (largely the responsibility of the Western world - and yes, I mean the entire Western world, Including my own country: the UK, and France as well - let's quit the childish and unfair American-bashing) that have fuelled the rise of Islamic fundamentalism, but whilst knowing the facts that Haku presents are entirely correct - that Iraqi deaths would easily outstrip American casualties etc I just can't find it within myself to bleed for a culture and people that have tolerated a despotic, unenlightend regime like that of Saddam's and those of the other Fundamentalist despots for so long. Maybe it is hard-hearted of me, and if I was better informed I might well have a change of heart, but again, let's not compare America to a regime like that of Saddam's. I am no supporter of George Bush whatsoever and agree that US (and British and French, again) foreign policy leaves a lot to be desired but on a sliding-scale, it ain't even close. Honestly, which country would you rather be living in?
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Old 16-05-2004, 12:26   #6
simon simon is offline
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Oh dear, we're getting into a discussion about Islam and the United States. haku - your argument seems to be that everything in the world is the fault of the United States and Israel. Your comparisons are grossly unfair. The US is far from perfect and I'm very critical of it, but this idea that the US is worse than Osama bin Laden or Saddam Hussein would be laughable if it weren't so sick.

Saddam Hussein murdered 300,000 Iraqi citizens (UN estimate); it is indeed possible that 5000 Iraqi civilians died in the US invasion of Iraq, which is less than the number of people that Saddam Hussein murdered every year during his rule. The ten Iraqis who have died under US interogation in the last year is less than the number of Iraqis who died under torture every week under Saddam. United States personnel have tortured suspected insurgents at Abu Ghraib. The Baath Party had regularly and officially committed far worse tortures on a far larger scale than anything the Americans have done to people who simply expressed a contrary opinion. In fact, all Arab states routinely torture political opponents. This does not excuse what was done, but it's important to keep it in perspective.

The fact that the US has executed several hundred convicted murderers over the last 30 years is neither equivalent nor comparable to stoning women to death for adultery in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan or Afghanistan under the Taliban; nor is it equivalent or comparable to the mass murder of members of the "wrong" ethnic group, as happened in Saddam's Iraq, Taliban Afghanistan or is happening now in Sudan. The human rights abuses committed in these Muslim countries are far worse and on a much larger scale than anything the US has done in recent years.

I do not support Guantanamo Bay, but keeping supected terrorists under detention is not worse than keeping peaceful political opponents in prison and torturing them, which happens in every Arab country.

Israel's driving Palestinians from their homes in 1948 and its occupation since 1967 of the West bank and the Gaza Strip are wrong, but they did not cause or justify the dictatorships in Arab countries. What Saddam did to the Iraqi people is far worse than anything Israel has done to the Palestinians. The way the Saudi regime treats women is also worse than the way Israel treats the Palestinians. The Sudanese government has massacred tens of thousands of its non-Arab citizens in the last few months. What has been the reaction of the Arab states? They helped elect Sudan to sit on the UN Commission for Human Rights. The only country that protested against this travesty was - the US.

I remember the millions of people who marched against the overthrow of Saddam. I don't remember them protesting when Saddam was massacring his own people. I don't see them protesting about what is going on in the Sudan. Indeed, haku claims that the root cause of the problems of the Middle East is US support for Israel. I'm not clear why that makes it necessary for Sudan to massacre its black citizens.

Make no mistake, I despise George Bush. But there is a dangerous tendency among people around the world who dislike the US to romanticise anyone who is in conflict with 'The Great Satan' and pretend to themselves that the failure of the US to live up to the principles enshrined in its Constitution makes it as bad as or worse than Al Qaeda (which proclaimed after the Madrid bombings "you love life and we love death"), Saddam Hussein (who consciously modelled himself on Joseph Stalin) or the Sudanese regime (which has ideas about Arab racial purity that seem to owe a lot to the Nazis).
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Old 16-05-2004, 12:41   #7
transcend transcend is offline
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Thanks for that informative post, Simon, it's nice to see you're still around.
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Old 16-05-2004, 13:14   #8
Linda16 Linda16 is offline
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The heated discussion here about Islamic fundamentalism, US and Iraq, proves that Ivan has hit the nail again But I want to repeate - the key-word is Chechnya.
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Old 16-05-2004, 13:19   #9
haku haku is offline
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I know, i know, French people (aka filthy frogs) are ungrateful traitors who hate the US and sell weapons to terrorists around the world to kill American people (not to mention that we smell because we never shower). I've been said that quite a lot by Americans on American forums where i used to go.

I'm no friend of Saddam or Al Qaeda but the mere fact of criticizing the US makes you a pro-terrorist in this day and age of intellectual brainwashing.

I've made very clear in this thread that i believe that at some point during this century there will be a general conflict between the West and Muslim theocracies (which is not the same thing as Arab countries). I've also explained why i think that opening a front in this conflict *now* was a strategic mistake from the US.

When this conflict happens and if i'm still alive, there is no doubt where my allegiance will lie, of course i will support the my own civilization!


That being said, the US are in the process of being taken over by a Christian theocracy and their democracy is weakening day after day, anyone can see that, even some Americans do.
I won't support that just because there are "evil" Arabs that are doing worst things that "good" Christians.


Now excuse me while i'll go eat some Liberty fries.
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Old 16-05-2004, 13:22   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda16
The heated discussion here about Islamic fundamentalism, US and Iraq, proves that Ivan has hit the nail again But I want to repeate - the key-word is Chechnya.
Yes, but I want to repeat that he did it before when he showed Yulia suicide bombing Lena and her boyfriend in 30 Minutes.
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Old 16-05-2004, 13:29   #11
QueenBee QueenBee is offline
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Wow, this has turned into an interesting discussion. I don't know much about politics, but I just gotta comment, who said all Arabs are evil? Many arabs want peace, many want war, just like many Americans want peace, and many want war. The arabs I know are very happy that Saddam is no longer in charge, I actually celebrated with them and they are very thankful for the US for doing this. Although, right now US army are treating people badly too, so I wouldn't say they're the "good guys". I am against Bush and the way he handles things, because everything seems to be about religion - the Bible says this, the Bible says that, he doesn't agree with homosexuality, why should I support the guy?

About the Shapovalov video: To me it sounds interesting, it's a touchy and scandalous subject and I like that. It should be interesting to see. I don't find it sick in any way, because things that will apparently be shown in the video, are already happening in some places - it's just the truth on television.
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Old 16-05-2004, 13:53   #12
transcend transcend is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda16
The heated discussion here about Islamic fundamentalism, US and Iraq, proves that Ivan has hit the nail again But I want to repeate - the key-word is Chechnya.
Of course, Linda, in Russia it will immediately have that resonance, but the fact that it equally strikes a raw nerve here in the West proves what a potent image it is. I have to hand it to Ivan, he certainly knows how to produce these iconic (or even iconoclastic) images. In fact, artistically speaking, I think the initial trio of videos he created for tATu have been his greatest achievement - in ATTSS/YSSU and NGGU/NND particularly - those images are sensational, honestly, the best pop videos I've seen in years.

I don't know what to make of the suicide-bomber idea, actually. Clearly it has tremendous provocative potential...but as for the morality of it? Is it just crass, where the tATu ideas were perfectly measured and premeditated? Dunno ....but I'm interested to see this video when it appears.
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Old 16-05-2004, 14:58   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by transcend
I just can't find it within myself to bleed for a culture and people that have tolerated a despotic, unenlightend regime like that of Saddam's and those of the other Fundamentalist despots for so long.
Could you find it within yourself to bleed for the North Koreans? They've suffered just as despotic a regime as the Iraqis, if not much, much worse. But I can't blame them for being unable to break free. I pity anyone who has had to live in such conditions, and thank whatever higher being there may be that I've been fortunate enough to be born into and live in a democratic society (whatever you may think of the Japanese political system )

Incidentally, who propped up Saddam for years when it was politically expedient to do so? Yes, that's right. It was the UK and the US, because we thought "Hell, he may be a bastard, but he's our bastard, and at least he's not a hardline Muslim unlike Khomeini next door, and we wouldn't want the Commies to come in and start making friends with him. Better to have him inside our tent pissing out, than the other way around". Which, admittedly, is the way geopolitics has worked for generations, but I don't have to like it.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that it's not clear cut. Yes, Saddam was a bastard, but who helped to keep him there? But apportioning blame doesn't help. We're in the situation we're in and we'd better find some kind of workable solution pdq, otherwise gallons more blood will be spilt on both sides. It's just unfortunate that the current leaders of the US and the UK couldn't find their arses with a map (though R'Tony might manage it with a little help from his spin doctors), let alone draw up a roadmap for Middle Eastern peace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simon
Yes, but I want to repeat that he did it before when he showed Yulia suicide bombing Lena and her boyfriend in 30 Minutes.
Was that actually a suicide, though? I thought she planted the bomb and watched it explode...
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Old 16-05-2004, 15:05   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LenochkaO
Was that actually a suicide, though? I thought she planted the bomb and watched it explode...
Yep. Well at least, she was so close to the explosion that yes, that was suicide
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Old 16-05-2004, 15:15   #15
transcend transcend is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LenochkaO
Could you find it within yourself to bleed for the North Koreans?
Yes, LenochkaO, I knew it was only a matter of time before somebody mentioned Norh Korea, and it is the obvious example of the inconsistency of approach in Western foreign policy, morally speaking. But that's the catch isn't it, how moral can any country's foreign policy be, given the current military stakes, unless you're willing to put your entire civilian population at mortal risk and launch into total war? The reality of foreign policy is that it is a messy, ugly business constricted and defined by a million and one different contingent factors and every country's (and I mean, every country's) primary concern will be their own strategic and economic interests. I don't like it, and I would love to see the arms industry lose its veil of respectability too, while we're at it, and have governments act out of purely altruistic concerns, but it ain't going to happen any time soon, is it?
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Old 16-05-2004, 15:58   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LenochkaO
Was that actually a suicide, though? I thought she planted the bomb and watched it explode...
This was discussed in an old thread. Generally people either believe that Yulia died in the explosion along with Lena and her *gasp* male lover (how despicable of her - on a side note, it's funny that it's actually Yulia and *her* male lover who blew up Tatu's image and career), or that Yulia watched it and then went back to the toilet stall to end her life.
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Old 16-05-2004, 16:18   #17
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Arabs, Koreans . . . who's next!

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Old 16-05-2004, 19:11   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simon
Oh dear, we're getting into a discussion about Islam and the United States. haku - your argument seems to be that everything in the world is the fault of the United States and Israel. Your comparisons are grossly unfair. The US is far from perfect and I'm very critical of it, but this idea that the US is worse than Osama bin Laden or Saddam Hussein would be laughable if it weren't so sick.
I never said that the US was worse than Osama bin Laden or Saddam Hussein, i never even mentioned those names. I was replying to a post stating that "Arabs are evil", my reply meant "Americans are no angels". President Bush and many American citizens seem to think that their nation has been chosen by God to enlighten the world and cleanse it from evil. The US keeps saying "This is a fight of good versus evil", this biblical rhetoric is totally insane and leading us toward a frontal clash of civilizations that is in no way the right strategy to defeat Muslim extremists, quite the contrary, Muslim extremists are thriving on it! But yeah, i'm clearly the one who's sick.

Quote:
Saddam Hussein murdered 300,000 Iraqi citizens (UN estimate); it is indeed possible that 5000 Iraqi civilians died in the US invasion of Iraq, which is less than the number of people that Saddam Hussein murdered every year during his rule. The ten Iraqis who have died under US interogation in the last year is less than the number of Iraqis who died under torture every week under Saddam. United States personnel have tortured suspected insurgents at Abu Ghraib. The Baath Party had regularly and officially committed far worse tortures on a far larger scale than anything the Americans have done to people who simply expressed a contrary opinion. In fact, all Arab states routinely torture political opponents. This does not excuse what was done, but it's important to keep it in perspective.
When terrorists murder people, that's expected, that's what they do. When dictators oppress their people, that's expected, that's what they do. When a so-called democracy tortures prisoners of war and bomb entire civilian areas to kill a few terrorists, that's unacceptable. And most importantly, why is the US even there? The fact that a country is run by a dictator does not allow another country to invade it. The US is saying that they are there to "liberate" the Iraqi people. Why? What gave them the right to invade a country and change its government? Of course the dead of the 9/11 attacks had to be avenged, it doesn't matter that Iraqis had nothing to do with the attacks, any Arabs would do, they are all evil. And let's not kid ourselves, the Iraqi people won't be free for a long time, they won't have more freedom under the puppet government the US is going to install than under Saddam's regime.

Quote:
The fact that the US has executed several hundred convicted murderers over the last 30 years is neither equivalent nor comparable to stoning women to death for adultery in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan or Afghanistan under the Taliban; nor is it equivalent or comparable to the mass murder of members of the "wrong" ethnic group, as happened in Saddam's Iraq, Taliban Afghanistan or is happening now in Sudan. The human rights abuses committed in these Muslim countries are far worse and on a much larger scale than anything the US has done in recent years.
Yeah, it's a well known fact that all people that have been executed in the US were guilty without a doubt, and it's only a coincidence that most of them were black.

Quote:
I do not support Guantanamo Bay, but keeping supected terrorists under detention is not worse than keeping peaceful political opponents in prison and torturing them, which happens in every Arab country.
Again, when a dictatorship imprisons opponents, that's expected, that's what they do. When a so-called democracy imprisons people for years with no formal charges, no proofs, no trials, no defense, that's unacceptable. I stand by my point, when a democracy infringe human rights, it's worse than when a dictatorship does.

Quote:
Israel's driving Palestinians from their homes in 1948 and its occupation since 1967 of the West bank and the Gaza Strip are wrong, but they did not cause or justify the dictatorships in Arab countries. What Saddam did to the Iraqi people is far worse than anything Israel has done to the Palestinians. The way the Saudi regime treats women is also worse than the way Israel treats the Palestinians. The Sudanese government has massacred tens of thousands of its non-Arab citizens in the last few months. What has been the reaction of the Arab states? They helped elect Sudan to sit on the UN Commission for Human Rights. The only country that protested against this travesty was - the US.
The US were saying that the Berlin wall was a shame for humanity, but the Israeli "security fence" is a great idea? Double standards.
Each time Israelis are killed by Palestinians, the US is outraged, but when an Israeli helicopter launches 3 missiles on a group of palestinians just to assassinate one Palestinian leader, the US says that it's ok. Double standards.
And if the Sudanese regime is so horrible (which i don't doubt), why didn't the US invade them already since it seems that suddenly the US want to overthrow every dictatorship in the word (expect Libya that seems to be a "good" country now).

Quote:
I remember the millions of people who marched against the overthrow of Saddam. I don't remember them protesting when Saddam was massacring his own people. I don't see them protesting about what is going on in the Sudan. Indeed, haku claims that the root cause of the problems of the Middle East is US support for Israel. I'm not clear why that makes it necessary for Sudan to massacre its black citizens.
I never said that either. When i said that the unconditional support of the US for Israel was the root of the problems in the Middle East, i was talking about international insecurity and terrorism. The fact that most countries in the Middle East are dictatorships is obviously not the fault of the Israeli/palestinian conflict, and i never said it was, but that's not an international threat either, that does not concerns us. What concerns us is that the Israeli/palestinian conflict has caused Muslim extremists to thrive and is the reason of international terrorism. If the US had had a more balanced attitude in this conflict, the situation wouldn't be nearly as bas as it is today.
I don't see why you keep bringing the fact that most countries in the Middle East are dictatorships. We all know that and it's not our problem, western countries don't have any legal rights to change regimes in other countries even if we don't like them. As long as they don't pose a threat to our security, it's none of our concern.

Now, i'm perfectly aware that Muslim terrorism is a threat that has to be dealt with, and like i said two posts earlier, i've explained in another thread why i think that starting an open front in the heart of the Middle East was a strategic mistake, ineffective and counter-productive (meaning that it's going to cause more terrorism, not less). The war against terrorism has to be led in a much more subtler way: intelligence, infiltration of enemy networks, selective assassinations. Barging in a country and blasting away not wondering who you're killing may be the American way, but it's not going to lead us anywhere, except more senseless bloodshed.

10% of the French population is from Arab origin, terrorist networks are at work in this population and those networks are infiltrated by our intelligence (and having French people who look and speak Arabic perfectly is an asset here). French people may be stupid and traitors according to the Americans, but we do have a fairly good knowledge of Arab culture and how to approach those populations, and we do fight against terrorism in our own, more discreet way.
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Old 16-05-2004, 21:33   #19
simon simon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haku
I never said that the US was worse than Osama bin Laden or Saddam Hussein, i never even mentioned those names. I was replying to a post stating that "Arabs are evil", my reply meant "Americans are no angels". President Bush and many American citizens seem to think that their nation has been chosen by God to enlighten the world and cleanse it from evil. The US keeps saying "This is a fight of good versus evil", this biblical rhetoric is totally insane and leading us toward a frontal clash of civilizations that is in no way the right strategy to defeat Muslim extremists, quite the contrary, Muslim extremists are thriving on it! But yeah, i'm clearly the one who's sick.
What I said was sick was to make out that there was a moral equivalence between the US and its enemies, that the failure of the US to live up to the highest standards made it no better than them.

Quote:
When terrorists murder people, that's expected, that's what they do. When dictators oppress their people, that's expected, that's what they do. When a so-called democracy tortures prisoners of war and bomb entire civilian areas to kill a few terrorists, that's unacceptable.
So you are quite open about having double standards. Saddam can torture people and its none of your business, but if the Americans do it, then you're outraged.

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And most importantly, why is the US even there? The fact that a country is run by a dictator does not allow another country to invade it. The US is saying that they are there to "liberate" the Iraqi people. Why? What gave them the right to invade a country and change its government?
I disagree. I think that we were right to intervene in Kosovo. I think that the world should have intervened to stop the genocide in Rwanda in 1994 (I won't talk about France's active support for the genocidaires).

The idea that what happens in other countries is none of our business and we should only intervene when our own interests are directly threatened is not morality, it's selfishness dressed up as a moral principle.

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Of course the dead of the 9/11 attacks had to be avenged, it doesn't matter that Iraqis had nothing to do with the attacks, any Arabs would do, they are all evil. And let's not kid ourselves, the Iraqi people won't be free for a long time, they won't have more freedom under the puppet government the US is going to install than under Saddam's regime.
You think that the Iraqi people won't have more freedom than under Saddam's regime? They already have far more freedom! Your fury at the US seems to be detaching you from reality.

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Yeah, it's a well known fact that all people that have been executed in the US were guilty without a doubt, and it's only a coincidence that most of them were black.
I wasn't defending the implementation of the death penalty in the US, I was pointing out that it wasn't comparable with stoning adulteresses or torturing your political opponents to death. Try to have a sense of perspective.

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Again, when a dictatorship imprisons opponents, that's expected, that's what they do. When a so-called democracy imprisons people for years with no formal charges, no proofs, no trials, no defense, that's unacceptable. I stand by my point, when a democracy infringe human rights, it's worse than when a dictatorship does.
This is the most extraordinary double standard!

I'm also intrigued that you care. You say that what Saddam did to his people was no business of ours. Why are you so worked up about what the Americans do?

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The US were saying that the Berlin wall was a shame for humanity, but the Israeli "security fence" is a great idea? Double standards.
Each time Israelis are killed by Palestinians, the US is outraged, but when an Israeli helicopter launches 3 missiles on a group of palestinians just to assassinate one Palestinian leader, the US says that it's ok. Double standards.
The US is guilty of double standards - but talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Your post was nothing except an expression of double standards.

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And if the Sudanese regime is so horrible (which i don't doubt), why didn't the US invade them already since it seems that suddenly the US want to overthrow every dictatorship in the word (expect Libya that seems to be a "good" country now).
The US is already completely stretched in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'd be delighted if they intervened in Sudan to stop the massacres. I take it you'd be outraged?

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When i said that the unconditional support of the US for Israel was the root of the problems in the Middle East, i was talking about international insecurity and terrorism. The fact that most countries in the Middle East are dictatorships is obviously not the fault of the Israeli/palestinian conflict, and i never said it was, but that's not an international threat either, that does not concerns us. What concerns us is that the Israeli/palestinian conflict has caused Muslim extremists to thrive and is the reason of international terrorism. If the US had had a more balanced attitude in this conflict, the situation wouldn't be nearly as bas as it is today.
The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is destabilising and it's a terrible that the US isn't more even-handed about it. But the fact that all the Arab countries are dictatorships is an equally important factor in Muslim extremism.

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I don't see why you keep bringing the fact that most countries in the Middle East are dictatorships. We all know that and it's not our problem, western countries don't have any legal rights to change regimes in other countries even if we don't like them. As long as they don't pose a threat to our security, it's none of our concern.
What a wonderful defence of liberty, equality and fraternity! I think that morally, it is our concern. I think that human rights are more important than state sovereignty. More practically, it's exactly your kind of thinking that led to 9/11. People thought that the Taliban in Afghanistan and Saudi support for them were none of our business, no threat. It was a huge mistake.

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Now, i'm perfectly aware that Muslim terrorism is a threat that has to be dealt with,
With the benefit of hindsight. I bet you wouldn't have supported overthrowing the Taliban before 9/11.

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and like i said two posts earlier, i've explained in another thread why i think that starting an open front in the heart of the Middle East was a strategic mistake, ineffective and counter-productive (meaning that it's going to cause more terrorism, not less). The war against terrorism has to be led in a much more subtler way: intelligence, infiltration of enemy networks, selective assassinations. Barging in a country and blasting away not wondering who you're killing may be the American way, but it's not going to lead us anywhere, except more senseless bloodshed.
The Americans have mishandled Iraq. The belief was that Saddam was developing WMD, so getting rid of him would remove a threat and establishing Iraq as a democracy would lead to wider positive changes in the Middle East. Things haven't gone according to plan and I'm concerned that it's not going to help the wider war. But that's a different argument. It's not the same as asserting that the Americans are no better than Saddam. I know the Iraqi people would disagree with you (and I can point to opinion polls on the matter).

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10% of the French population is from Arab origin, terrorist networks are at work in this population and those networks are infiltrated by our intelligence (and having French people who look and speak Arabic perfectly is an asset here). French people may be stupid and traitors according to the Americans, but we do have a fairly good knowledge of Arab culture and how to approach those populations, and we do fight against terrorism in our own, more discreet way.
Yes, it's so discreet that you've hardly arrested anyone involved in these networks, unlike us unsubtle Brits.
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Old 16-05-2004, 22:56   #20
RowerB RowerB is offline
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Originally Posted by simon
The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is destabilising and it's a terrible that the US isn't more even-handed about it.
You got that bit right in your post, simon, but your use of the “double standards” arguments, just made you look stupid.

The fact is, the Jewish community have the American political system in their pocket and it would be political suicide, for any American politician, to disobey an instruction from Israel.
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