Do we die? - scientists doubt

[KillaQueen]

well, because i think we would have discovered it by now if it were like that. but yeah well, who knows..

[xmad]

I really believe in soul,because I cant deny what I saw.

[forre]

Originally Posted by xmad

I really believe in soul,because I cant deny what I saw.

I don't deny there isn't either. What I say is that it might have physical nature. Radio waves have physical nature, haven't they? We can't catch them with our brains but we have a receiver that transforms the waves into a sound.

[xmad]

Originally Posted by forre

What I say is that it might have physical nature

Yes,what you say sounds right.
And I think we can control it until the moment our body is not died.

[freddie]

There are some things I disagree on with the article so let me mention those first:
First: the brain storage area... we don't really understand how the brain stores data yet. We only have a general idea how neuron networks form a certain patern that actually represents stored "data" - memories. (just like a hard disk drive makes a patern on a magnetic platter, which a special read-head can interpret as data). How much data such a system is capable of storing is still a total unknown (understandable since we don't even understand the system in which it stores data yet). So saying that a brain couldn't store as much data as is required for an average life-time is (IMO) a bit rash.
- a feeling of floating in a dark tunnel, with a bright light at the end of it is explainable with dying (or severe shock) of the brain. A sudden rush of neurons causes this special effect (arguably to make a creature's final hours more bearable, maybe even peaceful). The same effect (on a lesser scale) can be observed when we hit our heads against an object. We see bright flashing in front of our eyes (we even have an expression in slovene (dunno if it's present in other langauges) - hitting your head so hard you see "stars". There you go - a sudden rush of neurons as a result of trauma. Of course that effect is emphasized severely during an NDE and in the final stages the dying brain is known to produce "the tunnel effect", as well.
- out of body experiences - though unusual and unexplainable - still aren't a conclusive proof of life after death. It's known that the brain produces a chemical similar to LSD when dying. LSD is known to cause out of body experiences, with people reporting floating around the rooms of the buildings they were lying in stoned and passed out, describing the surroundings with enormous accuracy.
-scientists argue how long the brain actually stays functioning, eventhough the machines show no more electric impulses. Maybe there still are, but not powerful enough to be picked up by machinery? Even a flat EEG and EKG don't always mark a definite end to biological consciousness.

On the other hand...

... I believe nothing ever dies. I don't know why, but somehow it just always seemed common sense to me. It's just one of those things, you know? Like we know we can't touch the sky or how a new born instinctively knows how to swim. It's just... instinct. Who knows. Maybe it's just wishful thinking.

I totally agree on the television comparison. though: our brains are receptors, collecting electromagnetic waves from the environment, decoding it and processing it into presentable data (for example sound waves into noise, light waves into eye-sight etc.) and thus creating our reality - a reality which exists independantly of us, but the brain presents it as subjective experience. Now the big question is... can this subjective experience which defines our self-awareness exist on it's own. Do NDEs prove it? IMO - no. They're too inconclusive to have real scientific value. Does this mean they're absolutely false? No way. It just means we don't have a clue whether they are or not. To argue it either way as the ultimate truth is in my opinon - idiotic. I doubt any serious scientist would totally disregard the possibility of continuation of subjective awareness after death, as well as I don't think anyone can claim that life after death is completely proven. So speaking of it scientifically is futile. For now.

This is the way I see it...
The brain is a biological manifestation of consciousness - consciousness that exists independantly of the brain itself, but which needs a brain to manifest itself in the "real" world. When I say "real" world I don't want to imply other worlds/dimensions/universes are any less real than ours is. I'd label our world as a "Universe which is ruled by 4 universal forces - electro-magnetism, gravity, weak nucleal force and strong nuclear force. Those 4 forces are in essence a manifestation of one single force that's called "the superforce" (the scientists are still arguing if all 4 are infact the same force, but it's a fact that electromagnetism and gravity are indeed the same force, as well as weak and strong nuclear forces are also the same). So anyway, without getting buried to much into physics, lets point out that those 4 forces are actually the building blocks of our whole universe and indirectly every biological structure out there including "life" as we know it - animals, plants and even people. We are a manifestation of those 4 forces. Or at least our earthly selves are a manifestation of them. The whole universe from it's start to it's end, every galaxy, every star, every planet, asteroid and every possible form of organic matter can be explained as those 4 forces manifesting themselves in a certain time and space. In our "real world". The subjective consciousness can only "appear in the role" of a protagonist in this universe run by 4 physical forces, through a certain medium. A medium through which it can manifest itself. The brain and the whole body is that medium. Think of it like this: we see data on a computer screen - the screen is the interface through which the whole computer communicates - it gives it essence and meaning for us - human beings. But this doesn't mean the screen actually IS the computer itself. The screen is plugged in to a graphic card through a VGA or DYI cable, which is then plugged in to a motherboard through a AGP or PCI Express port, while the motherboard is commanded by the CPU that's bedded in the middle of it. See? There's a whole system that makes a comp run - lastly commanded by a small cube hidden under a fan on the mother-board, called a CPU. Yet all we actually see is the end product - picture on the screen. Not the whole technology behind it, nor do (most of us) understand how it works. Think of the brain and the entire body as a computer screen. The end product of a whole system of works, that's operating from the background (from a universe which isn't neccesarily limited by our 4 physical forces, but possibly some others) - a system which is as impossible to understand as it would be impossible for a layman to grasp the actual binary commands of an average Pentium 4, as well as all the periphal devices working inside a PC.

Lets not forget our reality is also limited by time and space. Just wrap your mind around the idea of a higher dimension where there is no time... where all time is the eternal "now" - all the past and all the future is actually the present and everything is happening at that one instant... If such a dimension exists our whole lifes are nothing but a mosaic of things that are eternally happening now and forever while we were just artificially brought to a lower dimension that has a skewed version of comprehension of time (as in that the time actually progresses in a linear fashion). Only so we'd learn the skill of gradual progression and learning.

And thus... I continue to be an agnostic. It's just to complicated to grasp it. But one thing I'm absolutely sure of - I think coincidences do happen, but only as events. There are no coincidences in meeting people who're close to us in this particular life. Every such person is a part of our basic cluster of souls, that's been together since eternity (at least eternity as we know it). But that's already a part of another theory which I won't bore you with.

ps: (sorry about the huge post btw )

pps: oh.. one of my points was this: there is no such thing as supernatural. I'm quite sure everything can be explained in a scientific manner if someone broke it down to us in a simplistic way so we'd be able to comprehend it with our limited earthly inteligence. By the current definities singlularity point (a point that has a volume of 0 cubic metres and yet it has a mass) in the centres of black-holes are supernatural as well, since all the physical calculations show that they DO exist but they SHOULDN'T exist in the physical world. We just don't understand certain factors of a giant squeeze caused by gravitation, which makes it apper to us as "impossible". Same with the supernatural - it's only a name for a natural event that has yet to be explained by the current science.

ppps: for KQ... I know what you mean about a soul not being something tangible. But here's my thought: there are new subatomic particles discovered every day - some of them have absolutely no mass. The only trace of their existance is a slight electric charge. A nevrino is such a particle for instance. There's a debate on whether gravity is actually caused by small, unmeasurable particles called gravitons. The only possible clue of their existence is s trace they leave on other subatomic particles (usually inside a nuclear accelerator). There are ideas of millions of such untracable and unmeansurable basic particles which from our mindset don't even exist (since they don't have a mass, while some don't even have an electronic charge... one would wonder what makes them exist and effect other particles around them, then?). The science of subatomic particles is very intriguing indeed imo. There's a lot of promise there for this science to fill some holes in our current knowledge in the future.

[forre]

Originally Posted by freddie

4 forces manifesting themselves in a certain time and space.

One of the biggest mistakes of human science is definition of time and space. There are simply no such things. There's only dynamism where matter moves. They say that at high speeds, time slows down. It's not time that slows down but the dynamism, which changes. Space is as good as time. Space is a matter correlation. All we got here instead of time and space is a moving matter.

Interesting points on subatomic particles and a questionable belief on coincidence. We could speak here about a universal system of balance for instance.

[nath]

Originally Posted by Rachel

My philosophy - if I don't see it with my own eyes there is no proof, so for now I'll be content in the belief there is no soul

i understand what you feel Rach but just see: you have a notebook without cable(wi-fi system)....you download a movie....
Of course at the end you can look at your movie on your computer , but You NEVER SEE the movie travelling into your computer....

For my own part , if a computer is able to send and receive and decode some waves , I think our brain has similar powers....which could explain , for exemple, some kind of possible communications between some persons....
With some brains more used to catch some waves than others.....with some brains which are able to decode the same frequencies.

In another part, I'm very prudent about the imagination possibility of our brains....
When I was at the lycée, I had too a mathematics teacher who was a very serious guy, who was explaining about the fact he has experimented himself several times this phenomen when you separate your "soul" from your body and you see your "envelopp" while your "soul" is flying above.....

But such expeimentations need a LOT of concentration most of the time...so at the end i don't know if this "phenomen" is the "reallity" or the product of " a concentration of the brain on a specific idea"...so the brain creates itself this sensation , this thought it was real....

I'm very prudent with these phenomens too, cause as I've said it before, I've lived with a girl who was , before me and at the beginning of our commun life, "communicating with death people"....
I've never assisted to that myself but you can observe that all the person energy is concentrated with this aspect.....so when you concentrate all your energy on that, indeed you pass beside the "real all days life"...
She is out of all that now....doesnt even touch a card to "see" the future.....cause you become tooo dependant of those "paranormal "phenomens...and i'm happy for her that she left all that behind her...

That's why i'm very prudent with all that ....the brain can adapt itself very quickly to its environment.....
KillaQueen , you speak about the things that dogs can hear and not nowdays men....but does it mean that man has never heard them?
Perhaps the "homo habilis" or "neanderthal man" had a larger hearing range than our present dogs??? just because it was so important for his survey in this time...
Perhaps the civilization and a more protected life has influenced our brain to the priorities , it has to place in first?

All that to conclude that I don't say NO and i don't say YES....cause I don't know.
I'm happy that other persons make these experimentations instead of me....if it could make improve our understanding of "how we are , how we work, how the universe works, what is life, wat is death..."...

I think too that we have a lootttt , a looott of surprizing things to discover in the future.....but in the same time.....i'm an "instinct" person...(bad i know in such discussion)...so I can believe to unvisible waves communications between some persons...I can believe to the possibility to "travel" quickly by this phenomen of waves...BUT i don't "feel" -for the present time- something after life...that's why, in the doubt, I prefer, in a very egoïstic way , profit of my present moments of life than to concentrate my brain into extra simple daily life....

But I'm happy that a lot of persons don't react like me and experiment and search

Just I don't know.

Originally Posted by freddie

I'd label our world as a "Universe which is ruled by 4 universal forces - electro-magnetism, gravity, weak nucleal force and strong nuclear force. Those 4 forces are in essence a manifestation of one single force that's called "the superforce" (the scientists are still arguing if all 4 are infact the same force, but it's a fact that electromagnetism and gravity are indeed the same force, as well as weak and strong nuclear forces are also the same). So anyway, without getting buried to much into physics, lets point out that those 4 forces are actually the building blocks of our whole universe and indirectly every biological structure out there including "life" as we know it - animals, plants and even people. We are a manifestation of those 4 forces. Or at least our earthly selves are a manifestation of them. The whole universe from it's start to it's end, every galaxy, every star, every planet, asteroid and every possible form of organic matter can be explained as those 4 forces manifesting themselves in a certain time and space.

Originally Posted by forre

One of the biggest mistakes of human science is definition of time and space. There are simply no such things. There's only dynamism where matter moves. They say that at high speeds, time slows down. It's not time that slows down but the dynamism, which changes. Space is as good as time. Space is a matter correlation. All we got here instead of time and space is a moving matter.

Offtop:
Freddie, sometimes I wonder if it's not you who should be married with my wifie...

[xmad]

Well,here comes a question:
Does the soul have the power of doing something when its detached?or it just flies?

Well,no one has answered the question so let me answer.
My answer is :Yes.

[KillaQueen]

very interesting post, freds. i like it how you compared our physical selves with a computer screen. the brain itself could also be an interface which allows us to manifest in this earthly environment.

just to make it clear, i'm not saying i don't believe in "souls" or some other dimension, i'm just saying it is impossible for us to understand it and it will be for a long time to come. there could be a superior dimension (or maybe it's a full circular system of other dimensions). the first comparison that comes to mind in order to make my point is that mankind is like a hamster trapped in a cage. now when you put the hamster there, it takes a while for him to discover where to get food, where to get water, how to run on that spinning wheel thing... of course, it's not the most proper comparison, but maybe, roughly like that hamster, we are trapped in the solar system (or in a larger system for that matter). it takes a while for us to discover all things. of course, on another level: assuming the hamster doesn't try to figure out how the food and water gets into its cage and how come he never advances when he runs on that spinning thing. we, as humans, try to find out how things work, try do discover the dimension in which we live according to our limits (because we do have limits).

think of it as layers of existence: we, humans, exist on our layer, each species of animals exist on their layers, plants exist on their particular layers and so on. man, possessing a superior level of inteliigence, makes sure those animals and plants exist between some limits (there is, of course, an interaction between man and the other earthly species, but the former has the upper hand, if you will). now suppose there is another layer of existence, of life above us (and another, and another, and another). who's to say we'll ever discover it or learn how it works? who's to say it wants to be discovered? who's to say it doesn't influence us? maybe just like our physical bodies disintegrate after death, our "souls" go back to where they actually came from. maybe the "souls" are indeed of a physical nature as well or just maybe they are something beyond our level of comprehension (which is what i think). just because we have a higher intelligence, doesn't mean that we don't have our limits. and i don't know why, but i think this "other dimension" thing is our limit. maybe because, as much as we look for it here, on earth, in air, in the ground and maybe even in space, i don't think it exists in the environment as we know it.

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by xmad

So spyretto dont you believe in soul?

I do want to believe in it but that doesn't mean we have scientific proof that it exists. Then science is supposed to be surpassed and cancelled out in matters of faith. The word "believe" implies a certain degree of faith it itself so nobody can say with certainty that it exists. So I think that even those atheists or agnostics can't be absolutely sure of what they believe in but the same goes for the deeply regilious people. But in any case I don't think that whether you believe or not can have an impact on the deeds of your earthly life.

[forre]

Spy, we all stated here that science begins with observation, analysis and theories. What we have here is the same pattern. We don't prove anything scientifically as we don't have tools but we do posses knowledge which makes us to doubt earlier postulates.

Offtop:
They made opinion surveys in USA and UK on whom people would like to clone:
1. Albert Einstein
2. Jesus
3. Mozart
See, people's thirst of science is bigger than of believes.

[zelda05]

Originally Posted by nath

What is strange is that people who had this kind of expeience often speak about a "tunnel" with a lot of light

It is quite interesting you have pointed this out. In fact, I was speaking with my supervisor (at work) who had an unforunate car accident few years ago. As a result, he is unfortunately paralyzed. Anyway, I asked about his car accident and he mentioned he was in the coma for one or two weeks. I inquired if he had experienced anything during his coma such as "going toward the tunnel, etc," as a lot people often speak of such things. He said when he was in a coma, his "soul was in the room" while his body laid in the bed. Moreover, he mentioned that he couldn't hear his family when they were talking to him; however, he did see his family being around in the room. Furthuremore, he stated that he did went to some place, a tunnel i would presume, where he saw people but couldn't see their faces as they were covered with cloths.

Did I believe him?... hmmm, well I just took his words for it and nothing more. As Rachel mentioned there is "no point in spending sleepless nights thinking about it."

[Rachel]

Originally Posted by nath

i understand what you feel Rach but just see: you have a notebook without cable(wi-fi system)....you download a movie....
Of course at the end you can look at your movie on your computer , but You NEVER SEE the movie travelling into your computer....

Of course you don't see the signal but you see tbe end result which means you see something - you see the proof. You don't see any proof of a soul.

People believe in a soul because they are scared of death and the thought that there is nothing once you die and it's the end.

[forre]

Originally Posted by zelda05

As Rachel mentioned there is "no point in spending sleepless nights thinking about it."

The paradox is that people who "have seen" don't spend sleepless nights as they state to find peace of their mind because they are not afraid of death any longer.

[Linda16]

Originally Posted by zelda05

It is quite interesting you have pointed this out. In fact, I was speaking with my supervisor (at work) who had an unforunate car accident few years ago. As a result, he is unfortunately paralyzed. Anyway, I asked about his car accident and he mentioned he was in the coma for one or two weeks. I inquired if he had experienced anything during his coma such as "going toward the tunnel, etc," as a lot people often speak of such things. He said when he was in a coma, his "soul was in the room" while his body laid in the bed. Moreover, he mentioned that he couldn't hear his family when they were talking to him; however, he did see his family being around in the room. Furthuremore, he stated that he did went to some place, a tunnel i would presume, where he saw people but couldn't see their faces as they were covered with cloths.

That's very interesting experience you are describing. It coincides with other experiences of people who have survived from coma.

I belive that if here on the board are persons who have seen other people dying, they agree that there is a dichotomy between mind (soul?) and body. The body may be already on the other side, not functioning anymore, but the soul is still here, aware and active.

I have explained the phenomenon like that (not scientifically, but personally, just for me ) When people are dying, the gates between the two worlds - our world and the other world - are open. Therefore also the living ones are feeling the cold wind from the world of the dead The ordinary rules are are not legitimite any more, strange things may happen, the worlds mix. When everything is over, the gates get closed and everything turns back to normal. It may sound like a horror-movie or science fiction, but I have had some experiences and I believe that such kind of things could happen

[KillaQueen]

Originally Posted by forre

The paradox is that people who "have seen" don't spend sleepless nights as they state to find peace of their mind because they are not afraid of death any longer.

and that could be explained with the things freds has pointed out. as it shuts down its functions, the brain releases some drug-like chemical which supposedly gives you the feeling of peace and so on, but hey! this makes me think of something. now leaving aside what the brain does during the (near) death experience, maybe it's about what the brain doesn't do. we said it shuts down - that could be a gradual process. first some functions turn off, then others. maybe thats why people have said before dying that they feel no pain anymore, and a sense of peace - because their brain was shutting off its centres. and maybe the feeling of being weightless and of floating comes from the fact that (some of) their five senses were being shut down. they didn't feel they were 'held down' by gravity.

[forre]

KillaQueen, It leaves us with so-called sixth sense then.
You can become fearless of death by studying the subject and convince yourself that there's life after death. No drugs or automotive shut down is needed then. Pretty the same nature. That's what I spoke about.

[nath]

Originally Posted by forre

You can become fearless of death by studying the subject and convince yourself that there's life after death.

If you have a curious mind, life after death could be very interesting and exciting.....but for an old bear as me....life after death without the people whom I love on earth has no interest....

I'm surely a narrow mind but ....i'm born like that.....with my marks which belong to the world where I live...I love to touch , I love to smell, I love to kiss, I love to look at the people I love...

If it exists something somewhere...it would be surely fabulous but I'm not sure I would find there the "things" , the persons for whom I live.

I HATE death. Not because I'm afraid to die. Not about my own body.
But because I Hate the idea to not see anymore the ones I love. I'm sad about that only.

[forre]

Originally Posted by nath

I HATE death. Not because I'm afraid to die. Not about my own body.
But because I Hate the idea to not see anymore the ones I love. I'm sad about that only.

Offtop:
You should be in bed now, hi-hi.
Well, that's what would keep us wanting to live even when we scientifically prove that there's life after death. I mean, basically, the science will dismiss religious teachings and similar tales but it won't make this life any less meaningful.

[KillaQueen]

damn: "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to nath again."

don't say you're narrow minded, because at the end of the day - or better said at the end of life - what you just said is what really matters. in the moment of dying, i think no one stops to analyze the process or the sensations... what they must feel is a huge feeling of loneliness, of longing, of yearning for one more, just one more breath of air.. i have tears in my eyes when posting this because i have witnessed the death of a very dear person to my heart and obviously i still cannot get over it. it was my grandmother. she tried to say something, she was struggling to say it just before it happened, but her words never came out... and i can't imagine what she felt.. really wanting to say something.. maybe to say goodbye.. and she never got to say it.. sorry, i'm just going to stop now.