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Ideologic differences: Terrorism


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Old 20-05-2004, 03:44   #61
Airheadap Airheadap is offline
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dollparts3000, You are retarded. Enough said.
forre: A bad way to conduct the debate. Personal offence is not the way out.

The US taking over Palestine in 1948 was absolutely wrong. We had no right to do it. Just like many other things we've done in the past. We destroyed Italy's communist political party because we didn't like communism. Seem fair? The US never plays fair. That's life. Get over it.

Haku is right. Over 25 Iraqis have died since the "interrogations". It's stated in the Taguba Report. Don't believe me? Look it up.

In fact, the US sucks. I live in Florida. It is extremely overrated. The same "freedoms" we have here are existant in pretty much every first-world country. There is nothing special about here. The buildings are ugly and the people are stupid.

In conclusion, Europe, here I come (in a few years). I went to France and England in the summer of 2002, and lets say I fell in love. Again, the US sucks. Get over it. Enough said.

Last edited by forre; 20-05-2004 at 16:16.
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Old 20-05-2004, 12:31   #62
luxxi luxxi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lux
however, not one of the 9/11 hijackers were from Iraq, although they were all from Saudi Arabi, most of them were affiliated with Al-Queda.
Actually they were from Saudi Arabia and Egypt.


Quote:
Originally Posted by simon
I don't know that Iran was planning to invade, although they were certainly angry with the Taleban for murdering their diplomats. US oil companies were negotiating with the Taleban to build a pipeline through Afghanistan.
Tey were very close to invading. They had large concentrations of troops along the border. Tlaiban took this seriously and started to deploy their troops along the border as well.

It wasn't jsut the diplomats. It was massacring Hazaris and huge amounts of drugs being smuggled across the border.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simon
The point I had made been making was that the West had been short-sighted not to attack the Taleban and Al Qaeda before 9/11. You know what happened when in 1998 President Clinton launched cruise missiles at Al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan in retaliation for the East African embassy bombings? Both the US Republicans and the international left denounced him, saying that he was just doing it to distract attention from Monica Lewinsky. It was widely condemned as US aggression.
The problem was that it was usefull for US to have them around. Pipelines and such.

And if cruise missle attacks were response to embassy bombings why was it necessary to destroy factory producing medicine in Sudan? What had Sudan to do with that? Or was it just coincidence that this factory was only African factory producing medicine for malaria?
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Old 20-05-2004, 16:30   #63
forre forre is offline
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Terrorism - killing people without announcement.
War/invasion - killing people with a previous announcement.

Both sides have enough motivation which is true and fair in their own mind. Both sides do that in the name of Allah, Democracy, Humanity, etc.

We are missing only one point I think - Humanism and War are not compatible. DOT!


P.S. Please, try to avoid personal attacks like "your country sucks, you are stupid, etc." There are better ways to explain your point of vew.
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Old 20-05-2004, 16:42   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forre
Terrorism - killing people without announcement.
Then what's the difference between terrorism and murder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by forre
War/invasion - killing people with a previous announcement.
Then what's the difference between war/invasion and death penalty?


Terrorism: Intentional targeting and killing of civilians in order to cause fear in group those civilians belonged to.

War: Conflict between two or more groups where sides use armed violence to gain their goals.

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Old 20-05-2004, 16:46   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luxxi
Terrorism: Intentional targeting and killing of civilians in order to cause fear in group those civilians belonged to.

War: Conflict between two or more groups where sides use armed violence to gain their goals.
i agree
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Old 20-05-2004, 17:04   #66
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Both cases have a goal and both cases cause killing. There's no difference at all.
Death penalty is a murder in itself but in the name of Justice this time. There's no difference.

To kill/ to murder - to terminate one's life.
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Old 20-05-2004, 17:11   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forre
Both cases have a goal and both cases cause killing. There's no difference at all.
I'm sorry but there are huge differences.

Terrorists kill people to create fear in targeted population to achieve their goals. They don't care who dies, as long as peopel die.

Murderer kills perticular person. As a rule they don't want to create fear but only to achieve their goals. Be it material profits or soemthing.

In war one side tries to force other side to do what they want. Be it ceding territory or something else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by forre
Death penalty is a murder in itself but in the name of Justice this time. There's no difference.
But you said war is killing with previous announcement. How do you separate what's war and what death penalty? By your definition you can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by forre
To kill/ to murder - to terminate one's life.
So euthanasia is murder?

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Old 20-05-2004, 17:24   #68
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luxxi, I see what you want - definitions and details, goals and targets. I was speaking about the fact that in all cases a person/group of people dies. We have accidents and abortions too ... do you want to include them into digging through definitions?

What I wanted to say in the first place is that don't try to look for humanism in any killing. It doesn't matter whether it's terrorism, war, death penalty, etc. For me it's irrelevant.
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Old 20-05-2004, 17:34   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forre
luxxi, I see what you want - definitions and details, goals and targets. I was speaking about the fact that in all cases a person/group of people dies. We have accidents and abortions too ... do you want to include them into digging through definitions?
Of course I want to include them. How will you separate murder (illegal taking of life without consent of killed) from death penalty (legal taking of life without consent of killed) from euthanasia (illegal taking of life with consent of killed). definitions have to be as precise as possible otherwise you have troubles with too amny things falling into one cathegory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by forre
What I wanted to say in the first place is that don't try to look for humanism in any killing. It doesn't matter whether it's terrorism, war, death penalty, etc. For me it's irrelevant.
Matter of personal opinion, but I'll respect yours.

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Old 20-05-2004, 17:45   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luxxi
Of course I want to include them. How will you separate murder (illegal taking of life without consent of killed) from death penalty (legal taking of life without consent of killed) from euthanasia (illegal taking of life with consent of killed). definitions have to be as precise as possible otherwise you have troubles with too amny things falling into one cathegory.
Bravo! Here we approached a question of norms. In my country death penalty is an illegal action. Should it mean that Sweden has a good reason to start an invasion of U.S.A. because of that? Politics is a fine durty business and trying to justify external affairs of one country may contradict basically with the norms and mentality of another country.
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Old 20-05-2004, 22:43   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luxxi
The problem was that it was usefull for US to have them around. Pipelines and such.
I don't see why it was useful for the US to have the Taliban around. I thought the Michael-Moore-approved hard-left view was that the US overthrew the Taliban not because of the 9/11 attacks, but in order to put the pipeline through Afghanistan

Quote:
And if cruise missle attacks were response to embassy bombings why was it necessary to destroy factory producing medicine in Sudan? What had Sudan to do with that? Or was it just coincidence that this factory was only African factory producing medicine for malaria?
The factory was believed by the Americans to be a chemical weapons plant. It seems that it was actually making aspirin. I've never heard before that it was making anti-malaria medicine. You refer to a 'coincidence'. You think that Bill Clinton's real motivation was that he wanted to keep medicine from Africa?
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Old 20-05-2004, 22:53   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simon
I don't see why it was useful for the US to have the Taliban around. I thought the Michael-Moore-approved hard-left view was that the US overthrew the Taliban not because of the 9/11 attacks, but in order to put the pipeline through Afghanistan
Because dictators are generally easier to do business with. You cna buy them and are willing to supress any opposition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simon
The factory was believed by the Americans to be a chemical weapons plant.
Wrongly. Not that US will admit that.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by simon


It seems that it was actually making aspirin. I've never heard before that it was making anti-malaria medicine. You refer to a 'coincidence'. You think that Bill Clinton's real motivation was that he wanted to keep medicine from Africa?
No, Clinton wasn't trying to keep medicine out of Africa. I said it was only African factory making that drug. I guess bombing competion is as good way to get larger market share as any.

What I find very unusual is that Us retaliates for attacks on it's embassies with strikes agaisnt terrorists camps and alledged chemical plant on entirelly different continent and totally unconected. Coincidence?
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Old 22-05-2004, 04:26   #73
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luxxi, Two of the terrorists were Iraqi, actually. Thirteen were Saudis. Yep.

Now, why does the U.S. get ot go over to another country because it's seen as a threat, whereas we are a threat to the whole world with our 30,000 nuclear weapons. I think we can destroy the world like 700 times over, or something?
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Old 22-05-2004, 13:03   #74
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Originally Posted by Airheadap
luxxi, Two of the terrorists were Iraqi, actually. Thirteen were Saudis. Yep.
None were Iraqis. they were Saudis and egyptians. I know some people have troubles telling arabs apart but please try.

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Old 27-05-2004, 12:37   #75
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write the following in google: "weapons of mass destruction" and press "I'm lucky"
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Old 28-05-2004, 12:59   #76
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Originally Posted by piojita
write the following in google: "weapons of mass destruction" and press "I'm lucky"
Also works for "french military victories" and "miserable failure"

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