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Old 22-12-2003, 03:13   #201
la aurora la aurora is offline
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haku LoL sorry... I swear I wasn't having personally U on my mind when posted that. U are not guilty and least when it comes to this forum. U just share ur opinion and U definitely have ur right to. No matter if I agree or dissagree [and I do agree quite often].

I just saw that post of katbeidar and decided to clear things up before other forum-members who are quite sensitive last days [what is NOT their fault and I do understand completely their reasons] take that story as new offense, feel even more hurt and start another sado-mazo discussion. Guys, we've got enough reasons to feel hurt, no need to invent new ones. That's all.
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Old 22-12-2003, 03:24   #202
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sunny poison, which one of my posts are you talking about? I am trying real hard not to offend here, just tell me, and I'll edit it.
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Old 22-12-2003, 03:26   #203
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sunny poison, which one of my posts are you talking about? I am trying real hard not to offend here, just tell me, and I'll edit it.
these days I wouldn't blame anyone from failing..
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Old 22-12-2003, 03:33   #204
la aurora la aurora is offline
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katbeidar, I never said U tried to offend. Just thought these ur words:
Quote:
It's nice to believe in something like love. But I always viewed Tatu as a movie ( a pretty boring one, with repetition etc ). And so should you, especially if they laughed at your trust like forre said in some thread.
were a bit... how to say... mm... provokative. Girls laughed not at the trust of the fans but at the fact that such kind of discussion took place at all. I would laugh as well. It's not a crime, i believe
prosto ne ochen korrektniy podbor slov s tvoey storoni. Ne dumayu, cho eto bilo namerenno. Tak chto bez obid, ok?
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Old 22-12-2003, 03:44   #205
Kate Kate is offline
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sunny poison, bez obid.
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Old 22-12-2003, 08:00   #206
Kappa Kappa is offline
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GAH!!

Sorry, Queenie, I should've answered before. XD I gave you a 1337 3duc4t10n th3r3, d1dn't 1? :P
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Old 22-12-2003, 14:26   #207
QueenBee QueenBee is offline
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darje, Nooooo! No more 1337!!! *stab stab* ::goes out to protest against 1337*
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Old 22-12-2003, 16:31   #208
spyretto spyretto is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by katbeidar
haku, you weren't fooled. You just wanted to believe Tatu were real. It's like "Titanic". A lot of people want to believe that Jack and Rose really did exist on Titanic and their love was real after they watched the movie, but these two people never existed. (Oops. Did I break someone's fantasy?)

It's nice to believe in something like love. But I always viewed Tatu as a movie ( a pretty boring one, with repetition etc ). And so should you, especially if they laughed at your trust like forre said in some thread.
There are lots of different kinds of movies, you know. Some are blockbusters, like "Titanic", others are based on true stories, others are biopics/biographies etc.
There were people who led themselves to believe that the Tatu movie was an autobiography, with the main parts played by the participants themselves ( in the theatre of life )
What realistic chance was there for that?

It was a fantasy, skilfuly blurring real events with imaginary events, a spectacle for people to enjoy and have fun with, not something to take for granted as a form of reality.

The fans are also welcome to join in the role-playing fun but once the curtain falls, everything is back to normal - until the next time.

The girls of Tatu are guilty of not making everything clear from the beginning. In retrospect, and after watching Lena's "confessions" on the documentary, I'm beginning to think that there was also some underyling element of guilt at play that made things more difficult in letting the truth be heard unequivocally; I don't think that it was solely in the interest of their image.
That can also be seen in the light of Ivan's attitude; Ivan, who never denied the fact that the girls weren't lesbians. At best he would say that he saw something in their interaction and decided to develop it further. At worst he would admit that the girl's aren't lesbians - with whatever that entails - and their responsibility is just to carry out their roles as Tatu.
But he also said that we should not point the finger at them, not critisice them for what they are and just let them be. Love was the key for this to happen. Love would suspend the elements of guilt and remorse they were feeling ( towards the fans and no less towards themselves ).
All in all, coming out with the truth will let them sleep easier at nights, live their private lives the way they want. The truth is always better than lying, even when lying seems the easy way out.

Last edited by spyretto; 22-12-2003 at 20:31.
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Old 22-12-2003, 19:55   #209
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*is bleeding to death, Queenie stabbed her*

... h31p...

spyretto, well said. On the other side, katbeidar, if you wanted an epic romance that was true, for god's sake, take Troy instead of the Titanic. LOL.
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Old 22-12-2003, 20:01   #210
guesshoo guesshoo is offline
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back to the homosexuality is a sin bit.
yeah i know there are some ppl here that hate religion, but u have to understand this is something that they believe!
take me for an example, i was raised in christianity.
everything revolves around christianity and what the bible says in my country. so what is accepted abroad is not accepted here simply b/c its not the christian way.
sure there are gays that live here but most of them keep it on the low, simply b/c they believe it is a sin themselves.
its not easy to go against what has been installed in you and its even harder to go against what you believe in!

to be honest if i had it my way, i would change the way ppl think and what they believe but i can't. its life and its just something we have to live w/.

i am what you would consider an open-minded christian. i accept things that most won't.
so i understand where most of you are coming from but i also understand lena's pov as well.
so for ppl to think its dumb and stupid is totally.............. (i dunno, can't find the right word right now). u really shouldn't knock anyone's belief/religion b/c no one here is knocking yours. this just isn't fair and can only cause confusion and a number of misunderstandings.
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Old 22-12-2003, 20:57   #211
Tom Violence Tom Violence is offline
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Guesshoo, I very much disagree. Very, very often people with religious convictions make it their business to criticise other people for their beliefs and lifestyles. Rarely with any sort of rational argument to their views. All very well. I hold onto the irrational belief that Ricky Martin is only 4'11". Doesn't mean I have the right to tie him up and try to poke his rigid, vertical body under a five foot iron limbo pole. However much fun it would be.

Sorry. I have a sore throat and a headache so bad I couldn't sleep last night. And still I had to go into work today, having taken three days of sick for my own ends last week. The band news is there's three more paragraphs after this. I'd make them sound softer, but these sicknesses always impinge on my ability to craft a considered sentence.

Anyway, I would assert that if people insist on voicing their unsubstansiated beliefs, I have every right to answer back. I find it most upsetting when otherwise intellegent people contradict their own better judgement because their religion discourages them from thinking for themself. There's a very obvious example I could cite. A girl in a certain band. Given any chance at all, I'd love to be able to change what she believes.

I find promoting any kind of blind faith most distasteful. I could suggest all sorts of reasons that religions might invest in it, but it'd be needlessly attrious. In short, I see it as very dangerous to accept belief alone as rationale for action that infringes on other people's rights. It is, I think, fundamentally important that people's beliefs always be open to question. If they claim God told them something, I care no more than if they claim Robert Johnson came down in a flying DeLorean in a dream and told them. I still want justification. Good justification.

When an individual's beliefs see them doing something as troublesome as branding a person, say, evil or wicked because of who they choose to sleep with, I think it's vital that this judgement be open to challenge. It should not be permissible that belief alone be used to subjugate whole sections of the community. If someone must try and impose their opinions on me, I at least want reasons that show some sign of having thought for themselves.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Stay in the underworld with me.

Last edited by Tom Violence; 22-12-2003 at 21:28.
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Old 22-12-2003, 21:22   #212
QueenBee QueenBee is offline
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Quote:
*is bleeding to death, Queenie stabbed her*

... h31p...
And I thought murder would stop 1337 but.. it is.. invincible! *shock*

Golden words Tom Violence. I feel sorry for people who are gay and believe homosexuality is a sin. I can't imagine what kind of life they are living, hating themselves. You can't really say "Oh, but it's ok, it's their religion". Tell me what good comes out of that, when people hear that they are doing something terribly wrong and will go to hell for loving someone? Sorry if it seems like I am knocking a religion, but it's no the religion in itself that I am knocking. I am knocking the fact that people can't be themselves and love someone, because then it's terrible, but for example when suicide bombers attack and kill many many MANY people it is WONDERFUL because they are doing it for their god!
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Old 22-12-2003, 21:51   #213
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Queenie, s0 b351d35 b31|\|g 54rc45t1c4l, j00'r3 4l50 4 |\/|urd3r3r? :P L053r. XD
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Old 22-12-2003, 21:51   #214
QueenBee QueenBee is offline
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darje, *Screams really loud* NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! *Headache* Please oh god no I dont wan.. *Faded scream*
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Old 22-12-2003, 22:32   #215
guesshoo guesshoo is offline
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Tom Violence and QueenBee all i am saying is believe what you choose to believe. no one can say that you are wrong, but when you knock another persons' belief thats when you are looking for problems.

religion is a very touchy subject when it comes to human beings simply b/c it means that much to us. it actually matters that much. when you criticise someone else's god or whatever, that angers them. why? b/c 90% of the time their entire being, life and thinking revolves around it.

i can never call you wrong for what you believe in, neither can we call lena wrong for what she believes in. its that simple.
lena believes homosexuality is a sin.
you don't.
everyone is happy.
the problem arisies when someone is critised for what they believe in, and to me thats just not fair!
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Old 22-12-2003, 22:56   #216
haku haku is offline
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If people's beliefs had never been debated, we would still believe that the Earth is flat and that black people are not humans, that's called progress.

When we say that homosexuality is not a sin, we do not criticize *any* god, we criticize humans who blindly follow what has been written in a book by humans who died thousands of years ago.

No god has ever said that homosexuality is a sin, humans who thought they were channeling god did. We have the right to criticize other humans.

And again, when someone's beliefs infringe on the right of other people to exist, those beliefs *have* to be criticized and challenged, that's the only way humanity can evolve toward more tolerance.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Patrick | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ shortdickman@free.fr ]

Last edited by haku; 22-12-2003 at 23:02.
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Old 22-12-2003, 23:18   #217
cirrus cirrus is offline
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Tom Violence, your post expresses my thoughts exactly. Thank you for saying that. Just because it's "what you believe in" doesn't give you the right to impose your ideals on anyone else. I know there are religious people here, but when someone tells me "I believe in something because my God tells me to", the words mean nothing to me.

and haku, progress is debatable, but I agree with your post. People challenged sexism, rascism, etc. and discovered how pointless and baseless those "ideals" were. Hopefully people will continue to question inequality in the world.


I don't think (okay, don't like to think), that Lena means homosexuality is sin. Perhaps it's the idea that she's lying to millions of people to make money. Being untrue to herself and her fans. If she think gays are evil, and yet she's part of "This girl loves that girl"... than I think she's, ermmmm, stupid. And I'm a Lena fan.

Last edited by cirrus; 22-12-2003 at 23:23.
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Old 22-12-2003, 23:23   #218
Kate Kate is offline
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For "Proof that God doesn't exist" --> www.truthbeknown.com/proof.htm

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Old 22-12-2003, 23:32   #219
cirrus cirrus is offline
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Quote:
Life is a joke. There is no purpose, so everyone is free to create his or her own, making it as amusing, joyous and scrupulous as possible.
Is he being serious? I can't tell if the article is sarcastic.

Quote:
This asinine comment also means that the hundreds of millions of Buddhists and others who don't believe in the Jewish godman are diabolical and will be severely punished. Those who subscribe to such bigotry are already living in hell.
I love that. fully agree. who's to say Christianity is the right religion? Oh, yeah... God.

This article isn't very respectful of religious people, though. Having a religion doesn't make you a bad person or an idiot. Well, guess it depends on the "religion" damn Scientology!
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Old 22-12-2003, 23:46   #220
guesshoo guesshoo is offline
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haku, i am not talking about scientific beliefs or discoveries etc., i speak of religious beliefs, which ppl have a right to believe and follow. its one thing to have a disagreement/argument over whether the world is flat or not, its another to challenge someone's faith (and by that i mean religion).

my comment about criticising persons beliefs was not directed toward the statement that homosexuality is not a sin, but is directed to that statement that ppl those who follow the contrarey to this statement are dumb and stupid.
but ya know what, maybe it was directed toward that comment. why? because it was not stated that homosexuality was a crime, but that it was a sin, which has to do only with religious beliefs.
and i must disagree with you, no one has the right to question/look down upon a person's religious beliefs. its one thing to ask questions and find out more about a religion but its another thing to judge someone for it.

like i said earlier, ppl here may not agree w/ what she believes and thats okay.
the problem arises when we criticise her.


ps. no, i do not have a problem w/ homosexuality. i accept it completely (just in case there was someone who questioned that).
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