USA - General discussion (Part 1)

[spyretto]

I hear you, Khartoun2004. By the same analogy a better choice for the white wing funadamentalist Christians etc. would be to vote for the KKK. I'm sure their policies regarding gay marriage and gays in general are at least as hardcore as Bush's not to mention the blacks, the Jews, the immigrants etc.
No, I'm sorry I really can't believe that and if that makes me ignorant about the US politics so be it. Not to mention that you're painting the majority of the electorate who can sway the elections in your country as bigots ( or maybe half-baked bigots since they went for Bush and not the KKK ).
I don't think it will be easy to impeach Bush...or start removing the troops as early as 2008...or even closing Quantanamo. I'd say number one won't happen, number two won't happen in this decade, number three might never happen. Just a mere prediction on my part - who knows, I might be wrong. That is if the Democrats win. If the Republicans win add to that another 10 to 15 years.

[Khartoun2004]

Originally Posted by Dr Dark

That is if the Democrats win. If the Republicans win add to that another 10 to 15 years.

What do you mean IF the Democrats win??? They have won... they won on November 7. Bush no longer can count on the legislature to do his bidding. Congress declares war and congress un-declares it as well. If they say we're loosing, pull out... that's what happens. It's not in Bush's power, to decide where the troops go and when the troops come home, it's congress and the senate. It'll happen with in the first hundred hours of the 110th congress. Speaker Pelosi has already said that is her main goal for this session of congress. Then they'll impeach Bush and Cheney on "High Crimes and Misdemeanors", vote on it (which will pass, I'm fairly confident) and go to the Senate where Bush and Cheney will be put on trial and removed from office. If the House doesn't impeach him the states will. I know of three states that are waiting for January to issue their calls for Bush's impeachment.

I assure you he will be gone it's only a matter of time now.

[spyretto]

What would be the basis for impeaching Bush? Iraq? This cannot be as the Democrats - not to mention the American public - were in favor of the war too. Going to war was not something Bush did against the will of his people. Other than that, you can't touch the guy, he's impeccable. No lies, no cheat, just dangerous politics.
That's not enough for impeachment.
About the troops, I don't know. If the forces be removed from Iraq sooner than later, then there's a 99.99% chance Iraq would lapse into some kind of totalitarian regime again, with a huge possibility of lapsing into a regime FAR WORSE than Saddam's. Saddam was pro-west, imagine if Iraq lapsed into a muslim fundamentalist state and then you have one more REAL enemy to worry about. And then what would the Americans have achieved by invading? Absolutely nothing - not to count the losses.
So withdrawing from Iraq is not an easy proposition even if one comes with the best intentions - like you say the Democrats have.

[Khartoun2004]

Originally Posted by Dr Dark

What would be the basis for impeaching Bush? Iraq? This cannot be as the Democrats - not to mention the American public - were in favor of the war too. Going to war was not something Bush did against the will of his people. Other than that, you can't touch the guy, he's impeccable. No lies, no cheat, just dangerous politics.
That's not enough for impeachment.

I've said it before... Bush lied about Weapons of Mass Destruction by falsifying intelligence information. Which is why the Senate Judiciary committee demanded classified documents from Bush's administration which the Republicans let him off the hook. As for Americans being for Iraq, it was based on the aforementioned falsified intelligence info, not actual fact. People are against the war now because we now the Bush Administration lied. Warrant-less wiretaping is another issue, if it was enough to try and Impeach Nixon (who resigned before he was actually officially impeached), it's good enough to Impeach Bush on as well. Is that enough reasons for you or shall I give you more??

[freddie]

There's a debate on whether Bush actually lied consciously or was simply given false information by agents on the field (either deliberate or as a result of professional incompetence). From what I remember prominent figures like Colin Powell (and for what it's worth I consider Colin a lot more thrustworthy than Bush), testified in the UN that they have PROOF of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. The guy effectively ruined his international credibility with that testamony alone. I doubt he'd be wiling to go that far unless he was absolutely certain that things he's saying are valid.

[Khartoun2004]

Originally Posted by freddie

There's a debate on whether Bush actually lied consciously or was simply given false information by agents on the field (either deliberate or as a result of professional incompetence). From what I remember prominent figures like Colin Powell (and for what it's worth I consider Colin a lot more thrustworthy than Bush), testified in the UN that they have PROOF of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. The guy effectively ruined his international credibility with that testamony alone. I doubt he'd be wiling to go that far unless he was absolutely certain that things he's saying are valid.

That aside, Bush can still be Impeached for illegal wiretapping because Congress did not make it legal when they pushed through the atrocious torture bill before they recessed.

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

That aside, Bush can still be Impeached for illegal wiretapping because Congress did not make it legal when they pushed through the atrocious torture bill before they recessed.

Sorry I don't understand that, can you explain it please.

I don't think you can touch Bush. If somebody else lied about the weapons it surely wasn't Bush. Bush can easily blame the intelligence of the time and the intelligence can attribute that to misinformation or wrong judgement. Nobody can be blamed for distorting facts. Same with Tony Blair. He was apparenlty convinced that the Saddam administration had weapons and the British intelligence had similar "evidence".
They detained Cat Stevens as a terrorist, so I wouldn't expect much better from them.

[freddie]

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

That aside, Bush can still be Impeached for illegal wiretapping because Congress did not make it legal when they pushed through the atrocious torture bill before they recessed.

He might defend himself with his usual rhetoric about the country being "at war" so special measuremenets had to be taken to insure people's safety. I'm sure the guy is convinced everything's fair in love and war.

Originally Posted by Dr Dark

They detained Cat Stevens as a terrorist, so I wouldn't expect much better from them.

You mean Yusuf Islam, the guy who publically condoned the fatwah calling for the death of Salman Rushdie.

[Khartoun2004]

Originally Posted by freddie

He might defend himself with his usual rhetoric about the country being "at war" so special measuremenets had to be taken to insure people's safety. I'm sure the guy is convinced everything's fair in love and war.

Oh I'm sure he will true to use the usual excuses. However, the precedent is not in his favor. He's doing the exact same thing Nixon did during Vietnam and they tried to Impeach him. So I really don't think the whole "we're at war" justification works.

In regard to the WMD and Intelligence, the House has to implament several inquires inorder to start the Impeachment process anyway. Bush can say all he wants that it's someone else's fault, but if the House and Senate find evidence that he was negligent they can impeach him.

The Senate has already started the process. I mention it in a pervious post. The Judiciary is demanding Bush turn over certain classified documents about the intelligence he used to throw the country into this ridiculous war. Whatever the outcome, the process has started, it's only a matter of time now.

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by freddie

You mean Yusuf Islam, the guy who publically condoned the fatwah calling for the death of Salman Rushdie.

And? What is your point? Would you detain a person for having an opinion? Would you like to be prosecuted for your views?
Besides, that happened 15 years ago. He retracted that statement several times since then and said it was in the heat of the moment ( not to mention condemning the 9/11 attacks )

[spyretto]

Last Updated: Tuesday, 9 January 2007, 08:47 GMT

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US launches air strike in Somalia

The heavily-armed AC-130 gunship can work under cover of darkness
The US has carried out an air strike against members of a suspected al-Qaeda cell in a village in southern Somalia.
The targets were reported to have been tracked by aerial reconnaissance and then attacked by a US gunship launched from a US military base in Djibouti.

The US believes al-Qaeda operatives held responsible for the 1998 bombings of US embassies in East Africa have been hiding in Somalia.

The Somali transitional government says many people were killed in the raid.

The air strikes took place a few days after the Union of Islamic Courts, which had taken control of much of central and southern Somalia during the past six months, was routed by soldiers from Ethiopia and Somalia's transitional government.

The US accused the Islamists of having links to al-Qaeda - charges they denied.

There has been no official confirmation from the Pentagon that the air strike took place, but correspondents say a statement is expected within hours.


Location of militias and US Navy patrols
Somalia's interim President Abdullahi Yusuf backed the US action.

"The US has a right to bombard terrorist suspects who attacked its embassies in Kenya and Tanzania," he said in Mogadishu, a day after entering the city for the first time since the Islamists withdrew.

The bombing is the first overt military action by the US in Somalia since the 1990s and the botched intervention - known as Black Hawk Down - in which 18 servicemen died.

'Opportunistic attempt'

The attack was carried out by an Air Force AC-130, a heavily-armed gunship that has highly effective detection equipment and can work under the cover of darkness.

The US has a right to bombard terrorist suspects who attacked its embassies in Kenya and Tanzania

Somali interim president
Abdullahi Yusuf


Fact file: AC-130 gunship

One report says the US attack took place on Monday afternoon on Badmadow island, in an area known as Ras Kamboni on the southern tip of the country close to Kenya's border.

After fierce fighting, Ethiopian and Somali forces said on Monday that they were on the verge of capturing Ras Kamboni, one of the Islamist's last strongholds, where many fighters are now said to be cornered.

Many other Islamist fighters are in hiding.

The BBC's Adam Mynott in Nairobi says the attack seemed to be an opportunistic attempt by the US to destroy an al-Qaeda cell that they had been tracking for some time.

The cell is believed to be behind the 1998 bombings of the US embassies in the Kenyan capital, Nairobi, and Dar Es Salaam, in Tanzania.

More than 250 people died in the two attacks.

The US also holds the same group responsible for attacks on an Israeli aircraft and Israeli-owned hotel in Kenya in 2002, in which 15 people died.

Meanwhile, the US military said on Tuesday it had sent an aircraft carrier to join three other US warships conducting anti-terror operations off the country's coast

[haku]

Originally Posted by Dr Dark

US launches air strike in Somalia

Ah, remote massive air strikes, America's all-time favorite… You don't know or see who you're killing, but you're sure you're killing a lot, while being confident *they* (whoever they are) can't hit you back from your high position. Those are comfortable and satisfying operations for a frustrated US army.

[marina]

I appreciate your hatred , haku . Lol

[Khartoun2004]

Originally Posted by marina

I appreciate your hatred , haku . Lol

yeah it's always soo refreshing to be hated for a regime you never voted for

[Rachel]

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

yeah it's always soo refreshing to be hated for a regime you never voted for

I'm wondering whether the democrats are even better. It's still the same mentality.

[Khartoun2004]

Originally Posted by Rachel

I'm wondering whether the democrats are even better. It's still the same mentality.

It's not the same mentality. The Democrats are known for their integrity in office, yes they have done some questionable things in the past, but that's true of all governments. What sets the Democrats apart is the fact that they don't blatantly lie about everything, even after they've been shown they were wrong. Things are going to change, it just takes time, the 110th session of congress just started the middle of last week.

My brother works for a senator so he tells me all the inside information the news doesn't report. In the Iraq thread a couple months ago people were talking about splitting Iraq into three separate countries, Senator Joe Biden is the head of the Senate Arms Committee and that is his plan. He's been an advocate of that plan since 2003 when this whole mess started. He's also already blocked Bush's call for 30,000 more troops.

On the House side of things, Speaker Pelosi has already said she will not put more funding toward the war in Iraq, also they are talking about starting troop withdrawals soon, with a time table to have most if not all US troops out by the beginning of 2008.

I understand that the US isn't the most popular country at the moment, but I think it's ridiculous to assume that Americans are happy with Bush when the evidence overwhelmingly shows we're not (22% approval rating and dropping) . The last election was the American public slapping Bush in the face in my opinion. The republicans did not gain a single seat in either house, they lost a bunch of them, actually the majority of seats up for re-election to be exact. Just be patient, even Rome wasn't built in a night or a week. Bush's lack of diplomacy skills has seriously hurt the country and it's citizens, rebuilding our alliances and friendships in the rest of the world is also a top priority in this session of congress.

[coolasfcuk]

Originally Posted by Rachel

I'm wondering whether the democrats are even better. It's still the same mentality.

dude, this comment is so fucking ridiculous it is actually FUNNY

this thread must be the most hypocritical thread around here - you guys WANT to hate america and anything american SO bad, it's like a fucking cult ..... comperable to islamic fundamentalists for example

[haku]

US air strikes in Somalia failed to kill any of the three targeted al-Qaeda suspects

But those bombings were not for nothing, not only was there a good number of human collateral damage, but many terrorist cattle have been killed… That's good strategy, you never know when a suicide camel may attack.

[Rachel]

caf, lets just wait until the democrats get into power (which I'm guessing they may do in the next election) and see how much of a difference they make

BTW, I love how you have so melted in with America

[coolasfcuk]

Originally Posted by Rachel

caf, lets just wait until the democrats get into power (which I'm guessing they may do in the next election) and see how much of a difference they make

WOW
this is why this thread is so ridiculous - you still dont know what is happening, but you are continuing to shit all over america. the elections were in november of 2006, rachel, and the democrats got a lot of power. here is a BBC report for you (not to make you read anything american, god forbit): http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6230735.stm
and if you expect the change to happen in a day... HA! its been what - 10 days

BTW, I love how you have so melted in with America

you dont know that much about me ... yeah, go ahead and blindly hate me now, because ive 'melted with america' i live here now - i and millions others from all over the world wouldnt come and make this their new home if it was as evil and horrible as you see it in your head.
and please, no place is perfect, the EU has its nastiness - i am also speaking from the perspective of someone whose country has just joined the EU

all i am asking for is some openmindedness, thats it, but hey...whatever. ignorance is a bliss - lots of americans are ignorant, but so are people all over the world