Evolutionary Biology replaced by Bible Studies in American Schools.

[marina]

Not to stir the things up ...but I can see that goku has a point.
Evolution itself doesn't explane how is everything started . So.. billions of galaxies in a universe existed for billions of years ...What was before that ? Huge bang they say ?
The reason ? Just black hole and nothing and then bang and Universe expanded to billions and billions of galaxies . Who is creator of that all ?....Or was it forever , no beginning no end. Timeless.
And more close to our planet..hmm..DNA....that is chemical elements that rearranged itself in a chain of thousands and thousands combinations in such order that not only created life but also got a chance to reproduce ! You are really have to believe that they strike that lucky. Stilll possible considering how long it took. Just like the Lottery , you never win but if you play 20 millions of years or more , you can hit the jackpot
Can we create from neorganic elements organic life now ? No , we can not . Well...apart from my fridge (when I leave food for far too long ) We just simply have to believe that everything happend that way. No proof .
I don't believe what Bible say , don't get me wrong . My point is that scientific explanation of our existence has no less staff than Bible that you simply have to believe .

[russkayatatu]

Nah, "Biblical Studies" is not a whole subject, at least not where I went to school (Texas). In fact I don't think it's part of the curriculum at all. In high school we had a class where we discussed religions, and our teachers were VERY VERY careful to make SURE we knew that they weren't trying to convert us to Islam, or Judiasm, or Hinduism, or Buddhism; all we were going to do was READ about them, you know, like students and scholars should be able to do, as they said

So katbeidar, what were you talking about when you said Bible Studies Replaced Evolutionary Biology in American Schools? If I can ask; I think it's on topic.

And this statement:

Since Bush became president, Bible became a part of school education system, and evolution is "optional".

Like you said, what? I don't think it's accurate. I found it totally puzzling.

One very last statement about American education: the Reverend E.W. Grinfield, as quoted by Gore Vidal: "'We inculcate a strong attachment to the constitution, SUCH AS IT IS; we teach them to love and revere our establishments in Chuch and State, even WITH ALL THEIR REAL OR SUPPOSED IMPERFECTIONS; and we are far more anxious to make them good and contented citizens, than to fit them for noisy patriots, who would perhaps destroy the constitution whilst pretending to correct it.'" Vidal: "There, in one sentence, is the principle on which American public education is based."

But you're right, I'll stop talking about the US; that's more than enough talk about it anyway

[haku]

I just wanted to add that besides the different stages a fetus goes through during its growth, we have another proof of the evolution of species in our own bodies, it's called the appendix.

The appendix is the remnant of an ancient organ, a second stomach specialized in digesting leaves and other "green stuff". This organ existed in ancient Primates that were essentially vegetarians, it got atrophied in Hominids who started to eat much more diverse food including meat and no longer needed it.
Homo Sapiens never possessed that organ, it had already gotten totally atrophied before our species even appeared. So if the Homo Sapiens species was "created", why do we have the remnant of an organ that was used by ancient Primate species which, according to religion, we do not descend from.

[Kate]

marina, evolution does not cover Big Bang. Evolution only concerns the living organisms. The oldest fossils of cyanobasteria date back to 4 billions of years ago. There's a whole chain of fossil evidence that supports the evolution of that cyanobacteria into photosynthetic bacteria and so on. Bible has no fossil evidence no nothing. It's book that contradicts itself in many places. Evolution HAS EVIDENCE!!!

By the way, why do human babies have gill slits in the early stages of development? Evolution, perhaps? Cuz why would God create useless parts in a human baby? And what about those vestigial limbs in whales? Evolution has evidence that whales evolved from land-dwelling mammals. Bible just says god created them.

By the way, haku, do you think your server can suppose about 4MBs of evolution related Scientific American articles? They are in pdf file extansion with pictures and so on. Some of the people can really use some reading here. And I'm sure others will be interested too. PM me, ok?

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by katbeidar

marina,
By the way, why do human babies have gill slits in the early stages of development? Evolution, perhaps?

Gill slits?, huh? So it is true, we have evolved from fish after all

[haku]

Originally Posted by katbeidar

And what about those vestigial limbs in whales? Evolution has evidence that whales evolved from land-dwelling mammals.

Marine mammals are an obvious proof of evolution, and again you can see the process they went through by looking at the development of their fetuses.

In its early stage, a marine mammal fetus has gills (like all mammal fetuses) but then those gills are replaced by lungs! If this animal had been created, why would its gills be replaced by lungs since gills would allow it to breathe in water? A marine mammal fetus also grows four legs at some point and then those legs are replaced by fins for the forelegs and get atrophied for the rearlegs. Again it makes no sense to have that kind of mutations if this animal was created to live in water. What we are witnessing during the growth of this marine mammal fetus is simply a summary of how its species has evolved in the course of millions of years. First a fish (the gills), then a reptile, then a land mammal, and finally (for now) a marine mammal.

[thegurgi]

Originally Posted by spyretto

Gill slits?, huh? So it is true, we have evolved from fish after all

i thought the gill slits were from being inside the womb... don't we all have gills for a bit? ok, haku already talks about this...

See, i'm getting personal here, but i think i'm a bit of evolution. Since i was born without 50 percent of the cartilidge than most humans in my legs and hips and my other joints... it just wasn't ever there, and i can do crazy things with my limbs [plus i fell apart] ... it's like Natures great expirement, evolution... "Let's see what happens when we do this to this creature, and this to another... will it survive in the world? those that mutate will either thrive or die. In nature... i'd be dead... really, so that's natures way of saying "no, that wasn't a good idea..." haha. I see it a lot with kids that it almost seems like it was just a strange expirement of nature, "lets see what happens when i do this"... but i don't think it's a very "conscious experiment" on it's sake... but we see it all a lot... and i think that itself is proof that we change... will my children :: if i have them :: be as super flexible as i am? That's really whether or not it's a dominant gene or that of their mother is stronger... but that's getting into genetics.... fascinating stuff

[goku]

Originally Posted by katbeidar

goku, Read the experiments that PROOVED the genes tranfer hereditary information. It was prooven, like, 30 years ago. I have to run to the lecture, I'm already 10 minutes late. I'll post the proof when I come back home. See ya shortly.

Kate, you're still not understanding, maybe you won't. What I'm saying is no matter what you believe, just try to imagine what you believe is not true. Even if you are so sure it is, you still keep believing your truth, but for this one moment believe in something else. And right there you have found all our differences.

About the "inaccuracies" of the creator(s), like the gills, or not perfect planets, maybe it was part of thier plan. Maybe they said fcuk it whatever. Maybe they're not perfect. There are many possible explanations (infinite). However, I do not believe humans were created by the makers; instead it was the universe. What happened after the supposed Big Bang they just let it take place.

[spyretto]

As I said before, evolution may explain the physiological developement of some species - well, I have many objections but lets suppose for the sake of the argument that it's a perfect explanation about everything.
It can't explain the cognitive development of humans. How - out of all the species that were and are constantly evolving - only the humans, the apes' descentants evolved into advanced species that are able to discuss the things we are today.
Adapting into the changing environment is merely laughable as an explanation. Kate says that through millions of years the brain increased its capacity - well , excuse me? that doesn't make sense Kate.
We're talking the ability to speak and communicate in sophisticated ways here. Animals have not evolved in that respect, they remain as limited as they were millions of years ago.

It's not a case of religion v evolution, it's a case of evolution as a theory trying to explain human development and falling short - by a long way.

I apologise for repeating myself.

[haku]

Originally Posted by thegurgi

i thought the gill slits were from being inside the womb... don't we all have gills for a bit? ok, haku already talks about this...

No, it's not because of the womb because fetuses don't breathe yet, not even with their gills.
The gills are just the remnants of very ancient organs dating from the time our ancestors were creatures living in water.
It's because when a new species appear, its DNA is not written from a blank page, its DNA is only a mutation from another older species with a tiny bit being modified. Most modern species actually have in their DNA old pieces of "code" that are totally useless to them, DNA is far from being optimized.
When a fetus grows, it follows this DNA roadmap that has been slowly written during billions of years, and it even follows pieces of code that are obsolete for the current species. This phenomenon can be observed in the fetal development of a lot of species, their fetuses grow organs or limbs in their early stage only to make them disappear in a later stage because the modern species no longer use those specific organs or limbs.

[thegurgi]

well a bit of a misunderstanding i had there, but you should have stopped there... the rest i already knew... haha. i know a lot about mutations and how that all works

spyretto, are you asking "What makes humans" different? Well, i dunno. we just evolved differently.... it's not a matter of decision or anything... it just happens... some of it's good some of it's bad.... and i'm sure you've heard survival of the fittest...

Kat, i have a server that can support that stuff....

[Kate]

spyretto, we did not evolve from fish. Fish and us had a common ancestor.

goku, what's the points of imagining something to be not true, if it's prooven to be true? I'm missing your point. Try to imagine that you didn't not come from a sperm and an egg fusing. You know that you did, anyway. So what's the point of lying to yourself?

Let's take Jesus for instance. He must have had 46 genes like everyone else. He was a male, thus a penis. If so, then he must have had a Y chromosome, which can only come from a father. A Y chromosome is made up of material, it has mass. Thus, God must have mass, and 46 genes in order to fertilise Mary. So, if he lives up there, why hasn't gravitation acted on him and he didn't fall down once? I'm missing something here, too. Face it, please, God is a made up person used to control the minds of people during the middle ages, and unfortunately Bush is trying to use the technique on Americans now, in 21st century of all times. Critianity has been trying to evolve with science, but it just simply cannot keep up with the amount of knowledge uncovered every day. Those who believe in God are underinformed, ignorant persons. No offense, but that's MY honest opinion.

spyretto,

Originally Posted by spyretto

Adapting into the changing environment is merely laughable as an explanation. Kate says that through millions of years the brain increased its capacity - well , excuse me? that doesn't make sense Kate. We're talking the ability to speak and communicate in sophisticated ways here. Animals have not evolved in that respect, they remain as limited as they were millions of years ago.

Have you heard of Natural selection? Read up. I'm e-mailing some articles to Haku as I write this. Please download them as soon as he provides the link, you owe it to your brain, it was developed to contain knowledge.

haku, I must say I'm very impressed. You are obviously a very well read person. Your arguements are great. And you know heaps about evolution and stuff. My respect. Check your e-mail in about 30 minutes.

[thegurgi]

Kate, Goku just wants you to see things from OTHER peoples views. You are being extremely myopic to the other side.

You need to realize that some people just DON'T want to think about this kind of thing, they believe in the bible and religions because it's EASY to. And you're literally hurting them trying to change their minds and you AREN'T going to be able to anything about it... seriously, i've tried in the past. I know i don't make good arguements on the computer cause i SUCK at writing, but when i can talk out loud i'm really good.

And Bush didn't outlaw the Evolution Teaching in Kansas, the PEOPLE of Kansas did... and then they realised how dumb it was and then undid the bad.

[Kate]

Originally Posted by thegurgi

you're literally hurting them trying to change their minds and you AREN'T going to be able to anything about it...

Unfortunately, you are very right. Hopefully, ignorance will go extinct with time.

Bush expressed his views against evolution being tought in school. I don't know when exactly, but I remember watching it. I wouldn't be suprised if he wanted people in America to be underinformed, cuz they'll be easier to scare and control.

[spyretto]

Still Kate, you read as single-minded and ignorant as those "underinformed, ignorant" persons. God did not make Man in his image in body but in spirit, as you very well know.
After all God is not matter, it is spirit. Your assumptions sound every bit as ignorant as my assumptions about that amazing theory of evolution ( the answer to all our questions - I suppose. )

Well, fine, I will read those articles you suggest, and I hope they make sense. I also reserve my right to not believe them

Yeah , just like thegurgi said. Bush has nothing to do with anything, leave him out of it. You don't have to drag your anti-Bush views into anything you write, do you?

[thegurgi]

i'm sensing a bit of "stupid americans" coming about to... like we'd all be so easily acceptant of Bush's policies? 1/2 of this country is just as Anti-Bush as the rest of the world and i think that should be made clear.

[goku]

katbeidar, we imagine because some of us think outside of the box, think not why something is a way but why something isn't another way. We don't know anything. You may think that you know humans come from a sperm and an egg, but what happens when a deity comes down saying "nope, I made you, that's not how it works". The egg and sperm was your explanation in this case, your truth, but it was wrong. Your assumption that you knew thats how humans reproduce was incorrect. Your facts can always be refuted by someone or something more powerful, thus your truths do not apply to everybody, however they are correct to you. That is what I mean. We can't take something for granted as a fact, because most likely, it isn't, and we won't ever really know if it is or isn't.

Originally Posted by katbeidar

you owe it to your brain, it was developed to contain knowledge.

I think this is the difference between you and I. You say you are certain our brains were developed to contain knowledge. I say that's a possibility, but it's not the only one.

Originally Posted by spryetto

Your assumptions sound every bit as ignorant as my assumptions about that amazing theory of evolution

That is how subjective these things are.

On religion and politics, don't forget I did major as political science. God was used long before the middle ages; monotheism was created thousands of years before Christ's arrival, and before that was polytheism (a belief in many gods). The religious institutions quickly became powerful institutes in the government, in power long before the Egyptians, where human sacrafices were carried out to please gods, and life centered around religion. After all, what's more important than pleasing an all powerful god who could strike you down at any moment? Yes, during the middle ages the Church was as powerful as ever, waging crusades and carrying out excommunications. However, to say Bush is using Christianity to incite Americans is far-fetched. A very long stretch could be made that he uses his religous beliefs to create support from certain voting demographics, but he certainly did not use that as his reason to war with Iraq or Afghanistan. And that is an extreme opinion and today's politically correct society, but you're right it is yours, and you have a right to it.

And Jesus was a prophet, he did not have to have anything.

[Kate]

goku, if Adam and Eve were created by God, how come they are always picture with belly buttons? And your arguements are going way over my head now. We went beyond facts, and a view not based on facts is not my familiar territory. I will not believe in God unless there are facts to prove his exastance. All I have are facts that prove evolution and disprove God.

You'll have to excuse my views if they offend. I'm a teenger, and I'm subject to maximalism.

[luxxi]

Originally Posted by spyretto

Well, obviously none, that doesn't deny the existence of God though.

Ask creationists and they will say it does. They claim that by denying part of Bible (Genesis) you deny all of it.

[haku]

First article from katbeidar

An Ancestor to Call Our Own