Turkey - General discussion

[fanoff]

Originally Posted by Linda16

it's already an achievement.

seems that you will never get that achievement!please let this one be your last post in this thread,as Rachel did!

[xmad]

Turkey doesnt deserve to be a member of EU yet. They are not what we/you see on TV but they are getting better day by day.They still have to work alot to get to that standards.
Sorry fanoff but it's true.

[fanoff]

Originally Posted by xmad

Sorry fanoff but it's true.

There's nothing wrong,i know the situation of my country,i just dont accept the nonsense things used as a threat to us.They just wanna get us frustrated(and they do it so badly),and show the world tha we are just non democratic country like they were in the middle age.

[haku]

The French parliament has today passed a law making it illegal to deny the Armenian genocide, such a law already exists for the Jewish genocide (this offence is called 'négationnisme' in French).

[haku]

A memorial for the victims of the Armenian genocide has been stolen near Paris last night, most probably by Turks in retaliation to the law voted by the French parliament a couple of days ago. Killing those people was obviously not enough, now they have to destroy the memorials too, pathetic.

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by freddie

The "Turkish" part of Cyrus is probably lost to Greeks about now - that ship has sailed. Europe didn't show enough decisiveness when it happened initially. It'll only matter on a symbolic level after they join the EU, anyway.

You meant to say probably lost to the Cypriots?
Cypriot Greeks is one nation.
Hellenic Greeks is another.
Greece is one country, Cyprus is another country, yeah?
You wouldn't like to know Slovenes were called "Serbs" in Yugoslavia, would you? Or you wouldn't you call a Scot English, correct?

As for the Turkish question, I think all that belongs to the past. But the EU is afraid of the Turks cause they're muslims and that's the bottom line.

[freddie]

Originally Posted by spyretto

You meant to say probably lost to the Cypriots?
Cypriot Greeks is one nation.
Hellenic Greeks is another.
Greece is one country, Cyprus is another country, yeah?
You wouldn't like to know Slovenes were called "Serbs" in Yugoslavia, would you? Or you wouldn't you call a Scot English, correct?

Yeah but I meant Greek in ethnic terms. Just as both Slovenes and Serbs are Slavic.

Originally Posted by spyretto

As for the Turkish question, I think all that belongs to the past. But the EU is afraid of the Turks cause they're muslims and that's the bottom line.

I think it's afraid of the Turks cause there's loads they could gain from them economically, so they need to be tactful and diplomatic.

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by freddie

I think it's afraid of the Turks cause there's loads they could gain from them economically, so they need to be tactful and diplomatic.

They're also afraid of the rapid increase of the population of that country and the fact that they're Asians and not Europeans. They're already concened of the consequences of the recent admittance of Bulgaria and Romania and have taken measures to prevent an influx of immigrants to the other member states as a result of that; imagine what will happen when the 80 million of Turks are free to migrate to the EU country of their choice. Incidentelly they were just 40 million when I was at school
Apart of a small section in the west Turkey is by and large an Asian muslim country and has all the symptoms of a country as such.
They're delaying their entrance to ensure that the country will become as much moderate and westernised as possible ( and hence less threatening ).

[prospector]

Armenian Genocide problem is a historical problem.

do you have any historical database about it

if your answer yes, ok, you are right
but if your answer no, you don't have any difference from French parliamenter

i should remind that the french parliament doesn't accept the only law about armenian genocide

this law paper imposes monetary penalties and jail time on anyone who denies that there was an Armenian genocide.

it's a scandal. EU imposes Turkey about the human rights and liberties and then they accept this law paper

i'm a turkish person. i have something about the armenian genocide problem. i think there must be a scientific forum about armenian genocide problem and the historians must discuss about it.

But maybe you don't know that the Armenian side never accept that, i don't know why? do you know why?

now, about Turkey's EU entry process

I think Turkey shouldn't join to EU, must complete negotiations (because we need some transparency in political side and more freedom in economy), but shouldn't join

because EU is crackling, young EU peoples are leaving their country and looking for a chance to run away from their own countries. EU economy is becoming bad...

[haku]

A first glimpse of the EU commission report on Turkey to be published tomorrow.

Freedom of speech in Turkey is not guaranteed, the military still plays a "significant" political role and non-Muslim religious communities face discrimination, the European Commission is set to say in a report due out Wednesday and seen by EUobserver.

Just over a year after Turkey started membership negotiations with the EU in October 2005, the European Commission will on Wednesday (8 November) release both a specific progress report on Turkey and a general enlargement report which also deals with Ankara's EU accession bid.

A draft version of the general report says that "Turkey has continued to make progress in reforms," but adds that "the pace of reforms has slowed."

"In 2007, it will be important to undertake determined efforts to broaden the reform momentum throughout Turkey," the document says.

The draft progress report – detailing specific policy areas - kicks off with a chapter on Turkey's compliance with the EU's political and human rights standards which according to the commission leaves a lot to be desired.

"The armed forces have continued to exercise significant political influence. Senior members of the armed forces have expressed their opinion on domestic and foreign policy issues," the draft says referring to generals interfering in issues such as Cyprus, secularism and the Kurdish issue.

Further highlighting the uncontrolled role of Turkey's army, the draft continues by stating that "no further progress has been achieved in terms of strengthening parliamentary overseeing of the military budget and expenditure."

'Climate of self-censorship'
The report is highly critical of restrictions on freedom of speech in the EU candidate country – targeting in particular the notorious article 301 of Turkey's recently adopted penal code, which penalises insults against "Turkishness".

"The prosecutions and convictions for the expression of non-violent opinion under certain provisions of the new Penal Code are a cause for serious concern and may contribute to a climate of self-censorship in the country."

"Freedom of expression in line with European standards is not yet guaranteed in the present legal framework," Brussels concludes in the draft, which was however prepared before Turkish leader Recep Tayyip Erdogan over the weekend indicated he is ready to revise article 301.

Brussels in the report welcomes a "downward trend" in the number of cases of torture and ill-treatment but notes at the same time that torture cases are "still being reported, in particular outside detention centres."

The report further says that non-Muslim religious communities "continued to face restricted property rights" while "full respect of women's rights remains a critical problem, particularly in the poorest areas of the country."

Two local TV stations have been allowed to air in the Kurdish language – but they are not allowed to show educational programmes in Kurdish.

No progress on Cyprus
As expected, Brussels has condemned Turkey's continued blocking of trade from EU member state Cyprus.

"Turkey has continued to deny access to its ports to vessels flying the Republic of Cyprus flag or where the last port of call is Cyprus," Brussels notes, adding Ankara's restrictions "infringe the customs union agreement" it signed with the EU.

A passage added to the report after the weekend and cited by the Financial Times said however that Brussels will postpone a recommendation on whether or not to suspend the accession talks because of Turkey's stance on Cyprus - until a later date before an EU leaders summit in December.

Some positive notes
Despite the generally critical tone of the report – with "limited" or "no" progress reported also in the areas of agriculture, the environment and in many internal market-related areas - the commission also has some praise for Turkey.

"Turkey's overall alignment with EU common foreign and security policy has continued," the document says referring to the country's positive role in the Middle East.

As for education and culture, "alignment is nearly complete and overall Turkey is well prepared for accession in this area," according to the draft.

"Education and culture" is among the next negotiating chapters waiting in line to be opened as part of the accession talks – but Cyprus has said it will veto the opening of any new chapter unless Turkey gives in on opening its ports and airports to Cypriot traffic before the end of the year.

EU Observer

[haku]

An excellent BBC article that explains how Turkey is caught between being ruled by a totalitarian army and islamic fundamentalists, and obviously very unlikely to evolve into a European-style democracy.

Turkish army keeps eye on politicians

The tanks are rumbling through the streets of Istanbul and the crowds are cheering.
Not images from one of the four military coups of the last 50 years, but celebrations for the birthday of the Turkish republic.

Row upon row of sometimes rather baby-faced young men in smart blue uniforms march past, carrying trumpets and drums adorned with the Turkish flag.

Their white helmets and matching spats gleam. Behind them comes a troop of rather harder looking men shouldering assault rifles.

Then the serious stuff. Angular amphibious landing vehicles trundle by. Helicopter gunships whirr out of the sky.

The powerful chug of lines of tanks is drowned out by the scream of fighter bombers overhead.

Above stirring martial music the announcer yells out: "The sun is yours, the earth is yours, the sky is yours, let victory be your most sacred desire!"

'Political force'

It is a reminder that this is one of the largest armies in the world, more than a million people under its command, in Nato second only in size to the world's only superpower.

But it is also a reminder that Turkey's army is not only a potential force on the battlefield - it is a real force in day-to-day politics.

Few adult Turks can see this sight without recalling that the last coup was just nine years ago and was preceded by the coups of 1980, 1971 and 1960.

Senior diplomats say that Turkey has moved beyond coups and the army would only intervene like that if there was a total economic and political meltdown.

But no-one thinks the army is about to give up its political role either.

If the army thinks the politicians are giving in to the rise of political Islam, Kurdish separatists or are betraying northern Cyprus, then the politicians will know about it.

EU concerns

It is true that Turkey's armed forces have swallowed hard in recent years and accepted a reduction in their power - mainly to please the European Union, which on the whole they think is a good, if extremely irritating and naive, thing.

Since 2001, Turkey's national security council has had more elected civilians on its board and the cabinet merely has to "evaluate" that body's decisions, rather than "take them into consideration".

It meets less frequently and the civilian government can now audit military accounts.

This summer laws were revised so that military courts can no longer try civilians.

But these look like mere technical details compared to the EU list of complaints.

In the report being published on 8 November 2006, the European Commission notes that the armed forces exercise "significant political influence", the military has in law "a wide margin of manoeuvre" within "a broad definition of national security".

It concludes that the military should stick to speaking about defence matters and even these statements should only be made under the authority of the government.

General's warning

This is very far from what actually happens.

When the EU condemns the Turkish top brass for making "public statements to influence areas beyond their responsibilities" it could well cite last month's speech by the chief of staff, Gen Yasar Buyukanit.

He said the Turkish republic and its values were "under heavy attack" from "people in the highest positions of government" because they wanted to redefine secularism.

Make no mistake, he does mean the present government. It was elected by a massive majority and is the first party for years that has been able to rule without needing to form a coalition.

It is up for election again next year and expected to win again. It could take the presidency as well.

It was elected promising to bring the headscarf ban to an end, something the majority of the population want.

But it has not been able to do it. From the women affected to fundamentalist agitators, no-one I talk to seems the tiniest bit surprised or even disappointed. They know the army has drawn a red line.

'Army is constitution'

Nearly two weeks after the National Day parade, I am watching a debate in the studios of Crescent TV, an Islamic channel on what is probably the hottest, longest-running topic in Turkey today - the relationship between religion and the state.

Four earnest men around a desk listen as a taped report sets the terms of the debate.

The reporter begins: "It's 83 years since the birth of the Turkish republic and yet we are still governed by a constitution written by soldiers..."

But this perhaps misses the point. In Turkey, the army thinks it is the constitution.

At least, it takes upon it the function of the constitution in many countries, seeing itself as the highest arbiter of the state, making sure that mere democratically elected governments do not stray from the straight and narrow.

Its sacred driving principle is that the sacred should never become a driving principle of the state.

It sees itself as a bulwark against political Islam and what it would regard as surrender to terrorism.

'Post-modern coup'

A retired four-star general, Edib Baser, who now runs the Institute for the Study of Ataturk's Principles and the History of the Republic, sees the state as a building.


"If this building falls down everything... including democracy, freedom of speech, human rights... gets crushed underneath. So the roof has to be strong. The army keeps an eye on it."

It is instructive to look at the1997 coup, which has been called the first "post-modern coup". That is a trendy way of saying the army made clear its displeasure, and events followed without the need for much brute force.

Neither the generals nor their puppets took over but the government resigned and there was a clampdown on political Islam.

Power without responsibility, perhaps, but it is probably more accurate to say the Turkish army feels it has a responsibility but does not actually seek direct power.

All armies, perhaps, have a reverential sense of their own history, but this is especially true in Turkey.

'Hampstead Liberals'

They were the driving force behind the revolution that modernised and westernised the country.

In the young Turkish republic, Kemal Ataturk, an army officer all his life until he became a revolutionary leader, used the army to build the schools and canals and mosques for grateful villagers.

But his conscript army also educated its soldiers, making sure they could read and write before they left its service.

A consequence of this is a rather strange anomaly.

In Turkey, there are liberals in a modern Western sense. But many of those who you would expect to be "Hampstead Liberals" in Britain are here among the strongest supporters of the army.

The controversial artist Bedri Baykam tells me: "This government unfortunately is trying to change every law little by little. It's as though we were trying to enter the Iranian Union, not the EU.

"Turkey is the only Muslim country that has democracy, freedom of speech and an international lifestyle and that is not a coincidence. It's because of Ataturk's ideas and the Turkish army's care and attention."

He has just been on a march in favour of secularism and against the possibility of the headscarf ban being lifted, and adds: "We do not want any military coup d'etat, because that would take us 20 or 30 years backwards. But we also don't want an Islamic coup, because that would take us 1,000 back. Between 30 and 1,000, I would prefer 30."

'Perpetual fear'

Some think that as Turkey changes and becomes more secure as a secular democracy, then the army will become more relaxed about Islamic symbols in the public sphere and slowly relinquish its role.

The army itself sometimes says that is its aim and desire. But it will not be easy.

Professor Hailil Berktay, a historian and expert on the way Turkey sees its own history, tells me: "The army had a semi-colonial mission to the rest of society. And they've never ceased enthusiastically believing that they are the real civilising elite in Turkey."

"They say, 'We are the ones keeping Pandora's box closed and preventing the demons of backwardness, superstition, religious fundamentalism, Kurdish separatism and Armenian nationalism from emerging.' It's this sense of a civilising and protecting mission that drives them."

He adds: "The larger problem is the way the rest of Turkish society has internalised this and lives in perpetual fear of what the military might do."

The real test may come next year, when Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan may decide to run for president.

If he does and wins, the thought of a man whose wife wears a headscarf living in the presidential palace, a man who was once imprisoned for words thought to represent militant Islam, occupying the role that Ataturk first held, may be too much for some officers to bear.

Then again, if these things come to pass and the sky does not fall in, they may start to relax a little and keep the moaning for the army mess table.

BBC

[fanoff]

Offtop:
With thanks to Queenbee and Haku for changing the title

a pic(to see how royal he is)

68 years ago today,the founder of the new Turkish Republic,Mustafa Kemal Atatürk died.It was a big loss of the whole world as he is a big supporter of world peace.Nobody like him came to the world after him.Among the great leaders of history, few have achieved so much in so short period, transformed the life of a nation as decisively, and given such profound inspiration to the world at large.His achievements in Turkey are an enduring monument to Atatürk

[coolasfcuk]

Originally Posted by fanoff

Offtop:
With thanks to Queenbee and Haku for changing the title

a pic(to see how royal he is)

sorry, but he looks like an angry criminal in that pic!

[Argos]

Originally Posted by coolasfcuk

sorry, but he looks like an angry criminal in that pic!

No, only heartburn!

[fanoff]

there were about 60 presidents and 30 kings in that ceremony and i think the most spottable one is undoubtfully is Atatürk,the others were just looking,with nothing special.It shows the charisma of him obviously and his presence is awesome in that.

[forre]

Originally Posted by fanoff

and i think the most spottable one is undoubtfully is Atatürk

So where exactly on the picture is he?

[Argos]

Originally Posted by forre

So where exactly on the picture is he?

If I'm not totally wrong, he is the fourth from the right, sitting at the backside of the table, the evil looking guy behind the first bowl of grapes.

[QueenBee]

I think it is him too as the picture is mostly of that part of the room and only two of the men sitting down are visible, the one to the right seems to be the most noticeable.

Although it would be funny if it was the little bigger man to the left, with the different outfit.

Offtop:
I wonder if forre was being sarcastic, though.

This is him apparently

I found some info on wikipedia that I liked:
The leading legal reforms instituted by Mustafa Kemal included the complete separation of government and religious affairs and the adoption of a strong interpretation of the principle of laïcité in the constitution. This was coupled with the closure of Islamic courts and the replacement of Islamic canon law with a secular civil code modeled after Switzerland and a penal code modeled after the Italian Penal Code. The reforms also included the recognition of the equality between the sexes and the granting of full political rights to women on December 5, 1934.

[Argos]

A strong-willed man who lived for his visions without compromise, not even with his liver.

[haku]

Armenian journalist Hrant Dink was murdered in Turkey, it seems the Turkish regime has been inspired by Putin's way of getting rid of annoying journalists.