Any fans left?

[freddie]

Originally posted by cirrus
I don't think (okay, don't like to think), that Lena means homosexuality is sin. Perhaps it's the idea that she's lying to millions of people to make money. Being untrue to herself and her fans. If she think gays are evil, and yet she's part of "This girl loves that girl"... than I think she's, ermmmm, stupid. And I'm a Lena fan.

I thought she meant homosexuality is a sin as well. But after thinking baout it for a bit I realized that we were heavily assuming here. She said that "what she does" is a sin. Does she "do" homosexuality? Isn't she a singer in a highly sexual band? Doesn't she kiss onstage (that would be a sin for the ortodox church wheter she'd do it with a boy or a girl)? Doesn't she do highly provocative dance moves? All those things can be seen as sin.

"When you die, you will meet your Maker and fall down on your knees before Jesus and ask His forgiveness." Ditto with the above. Why would the "omnipotent" Jesus and "His Father" be so threatened by our unbelief? Did "He/They" not provide us with intelligence? Yet, "He" wishes us to spit on "His" gift and not use it? This asinine comment also means that the hundreds of millions of Buddhists and others who don't believe in the Jewish godman are diabolical and will be severely punished. Those who subscribe to such bigotry are already living in hell."When you die, you will meet your Maker and fall down on your knees before Jesus and ask His forgiveness." Ditto with the above. Why would the "omnipotent" Jesus and "His Father" be so threatened by our unbelief? Did "He/They" not provide us with intelligence? Yet, "He" wishes us to spit on "His" gift and not use it? This asinine comment also means that the hundreds of millions of Buddhists and others who don't believe in the Jewish godman are diabolical and will be severely punished. Those who subscribe to such bigotry are already living in hell.

This is a PERFECT representation of the hypocracy that is christianity. It's all derived from the "I don't give shit about other people" mentality that is so well suited for todays capitalist society. I guess God, Jesus, Mary and the good belivers will have a good sadistic laugh watching members of other religius groups disintegrating in hell-fire. Oh boy.

[haku]

guesshoo

There was a time when Christian people thought that black people were "apes" and that women were so inferior that they had to remain the property of a man during their whole life.

Those beliefs were thought to be the will of god, and people could quote passages from the bible justifying those beliefs.

Fortunately, intelligent and courageous people dismissed those beliefs, challenged them, proved them wrong, and made things change.

With your way of thinking "no one has the right to question/look down upon a person's religious beliefs", we would still be there!

Christianity continues to state that homosexuals are deviants. It's our duty to challenge that belief so that one day Christianity finally admits that this idea was indeed baseless and yes, stupid!

I hope that one day our descendants will be able to look at that belief the way we look at those i've cited above.

But of course if we do *nothing* and respect the right of people to be bigots that will *never* happen.

[guesshoo]

well, i have a bible right here in the front of me. in fact i am looking at it right now. nowhere have i ever read that black ppl are "apes", so we will dismiss that theory as straight up ludacris.
however there is verse in that bible that the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church. and husbands should love their wife as Christ loves the church and gave His life for it. it is clear how ppl can twist and turn this statement to their own desires and see women as inferior and less than we really are. i for one believe in equality. however there are females out there that feel as if their husbands should rule over them and tell them what to do, just as well as there are others who don't. my thing w/ this is, if allows the marriage to run smoothly and both parties agree then where is the problem? different strokes for different folks.

however leviticus 18:22 states "No man is to have sexual relations with another man; God hates that."-Good News Version (this entire chapter is about forbidden sexual practices God told Moses to tell the Isrealites etc.).
how can anyone misunderstand this? it is short and clear.

now, whether you choose to believe this or not is up to you. no one can be mad at you for doing so. NO ONE!

*sigh*
once again i will say , we are entitled to belive what we want (religiously). yes we all may not agree w/ what others believe but we must still respect it as the persons belief. we don't have to like or support it. we just have to respect it.

so whatever lena believes shouldn't concern us. i know there are gays who are offended but, get over it (that my seem harsh, but sorry). it was not intended to offend you. i'm black and there are ppl who believe that they are not only better than me but also that i'm going to hell for my color as well, but ya know what? thats life.
keep in mind, lena never said anything negative towards gays but simply stated her beliefs.



ps. personally i feel as if my religion could use some restructuring however. i mean we accept phonication, lying, masturbation (yeas, it is actually a sin. i myself was shocked when i found it out) etc. but simply dismiss any thought of accepting homosexuality. why is this? no and i repeat no sin is greater than the other!
yes, i have heard all the sayings "but God destroyed a whole city for it!" and "its just unnatural!" (those are the less "graphic" ones). but God didn't destroy Sodem and Gomorrah (sp.) for just homosexuality, but for other things as well.

[QueenBee]

I think people who believe homosexuality is a sin are stupid, and I admit that... That is a homophobic remark and why should I think it's okay?! I understand that I am doing the same thing by "bashing" them when they bash homosexuals, but I guess I have to stand for doing that and being so AWFUL when saying loving someone is right!

By saying that it's okay to dislike homosexuality is like saying it's okay to dislike people because of their race and.. Religion! Aha! We have it there again.. Of course people are free to think what they want, but that doesn't mean that I can't think they are stupid assholes.

And I hope everyone here understands this wasn't directed to anyone personally.

[haku]

Originally posted by guesshoo
well, i have a bible right here in the front of me. in fact i am looking at it right now. nowhere have i ever read that black ppl are "apes"

It's in there.

"God created man to his image"

The people who wrote the bible were Semits, for them god was like them, or more precisely they thought they were like god.

In those days, black people were not considered as humans because they obviously had not been created to the image of god.

When christianity spread across the Roman empire, the image of god took clearly caucasian traits, influenced in that by classical Greek/Roman gods.

Interestingly, black people could be Roman citizens before christianity became the official religion of the Roman empire, that was no longer the case after.

The christian church actually held tribunals to decide if other ethnic groups on the planet were indeed humans. Asians and Amerindians were judged to be close enough to the image of god to be considered humans, the other decisive factor was that Asians and Amerindians had developped great civilizations, proof that they were intellingent beings worthy to christianize.

Black people did not obtain the status of humans because "they looked closer to apes than humans and were obviously incapable to create a great civilization".

This status will not dissappear until the 18th/19th century depending on countries.


What i'm saying with this is that we have to fight dogma, because what seems perfectly normal at one time, can look totally stupid a few centuries later.

But of course if we do nothing, nothing will ever change.

[luxxi]

Originally posted by Tom Violence
[b]Anyway, I would assert that if people insist on voicing their unsubstansiated beliefs, I have every right to answer back. I find it most upsetting when otherwise intellegent people contradict their own better judgement because their religion discourages them from thinking for themself. There's a very obvious example I could cite. A girl in a certain band. Given any chance at all, I'd love to be able to change what she believes.

Sorry, but I have to disagree here. People should be free to believe. Do you believe British won at Waterloo in 1815? Yes? Why? Were you there? If you weren't, if you didn't see it with your own eyes how is believing it any different that believing that insert name of holy book here is word of God? IMO it isn't. You believe that Brits won at Waterloo because historians say so. People beleive that insert name of holy book here is word of God because religious leaders tell them so.

One is free to beleive what they want, they shouldn't, however, force their beleifs on others. You are free to believe that walking under ladder is bad luck. If you want to avoid walking under ladders you should be able to and nobody should force you to walk under one if you don't want to. However you shouldn't go around knocking ladders. People are free to believe homosexuality is sin. You (and me) disagree. Nobody should force others to change their views. Would you force Jew to eat pork to persuade him to drop his stupid religious prejudices? Should Jews go around killing all pigs so that nobody would eat unclean food?

People are free to beleive homosexuality is sin. Nobody should attack them for this. People are free to believe homosexuality is nothing wrong. Nobody should attack them for this.

[luxxi]

Originally posted by haku
If people's beliefs had never been debated, we would still believe that the Earth is flat and that black people are not humans, that's called progress.

I's one thing to debate material things, it's another to debate one's beliefs. Shape of Earth can be proven. Nature (and forms) of sins can't, because they are not material things but matter of perception.

Is eating beef wrong? Ask Christian and Hindu and you'll get two answers. Which one is right? Both can't be right, can they? So how do you propose we prove which one is wrong?

[haku]

Originally posted by luxxi
Is eating beef wrong? Ask Christian and Hindu and you'll get two answers. Which one is right? Both can't be right, can they? So how do you propose we prove which one is wrong?

Well, in one case the beef is dead, in the other it's still alive. Life being more positive than death, i guess we should go with the Hindu.


And on what i was talking about, on one side we have homophobes who think that homosexuals are deviants who should remain hidden or risk being bitten up, on the other side we have tolerant people who think that homosexuals should be free to live their lives openly like any other people. I choose tolerance.

[QueenBee]

I choose tolerance too. I think people have the right to believe what they want, in this case that homosexuality is disgusting and a big sin, but if they can think so, then I can think that they are stupid disgusting people for thinking so.. Does that make sense? (If they are allowed to criticize homosexuals why am I not allowed to criticize them?)

[haku]

Originally posted by QueenBee
If they are allowed to criticize homosexuals why am I not allowed to criticize them?

Well said QueenBee

[freddie]

Originally posted by QueenBee
I choose tolerance too. I think people have the right to believe what they want, in this case that homosexuality is disgusting and a big sin, but if they can think so, then I can think that they are stupid disgusting people for thinking so.. Does that make sense? (If they are allowed to criticize homosexuals why am I not allowed to criticize them?)

Because YOU should be better then that.

In the eternal words of MJ:
If you wanna make a world a better place,
take a look at yourself and then make a change.

[Lux]

what the heck is going on

[haku]

Originally posted by Lux
what the heck is going on

Releasing accumulated pressure i guess.

[ypsidan04]

Originally posted by TLFdk
I never looked for it

People told me to look for it, and I told them to shutup.

Originally posted by QueenBee
You can show different kinds of love without being a couple! I kiss and hug my friends and Im not together with any of them so..

That's the thing! Girls can kiss and hug their friends without being immediately looked at as gay. But a guy does that and........HE'S GAY ALL OF A SUDDEN! Man....society these days!

[QueenBee]

freddie, nay! I don't think it's like that when it comes to things like these.. If I will not speak my opinion and try to change these people (well you know what I mean) then they won't change. I can't keep hiding everything in the dark, can I??

[freddie]

Originally posted by QueenBee
freddie, nay! I don't think it's like that when it comes to things like these.. If I will not speak my opinion and try to change these people (well you know what I mean) then they won't change. I can't keep hiding everything in the dark, can I??

You won't convince aa homophobe to think otherwise. Mainly because most of them already KNOW that their thinking has no common sense whatsoever - but they are being hypocritical - homophobia is just an excuse for them to hate someone and to belong to the majority of "righteous" heterosexuals. It's not a thing you convince somebody that they're wrong about... they'll either realize it for themselves or not at all. Live and let live Queenie
Of course I never said you shouldn't tell your honest opinion about the subject, but I wouldn't to as far as saying that somebody is disguisting for thinking something (maybe that person is ignorant and just plainly doesn't know any better, maybe it's the cause of upbringing, maybe it's hypocracy. What's important is that we don't judge them cause we simply don't know.)

[ypsidan04]

Originally posted by cirrus
If she think gays are evil, and yet she's part of "This girl loves that girl"... than I think she's, ermmmm, stupid. And I'm a Lena fan.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

That's impossible.

Originally posted by freddie
I thought she meant homosexuality is a sin as well. But after thinking baout it for a bit I realized that we were heavily assuming here. She said that "what she does" is a sin. Does she "do" homosexuality? Isn't she a singer in a highly sexual band? Doesn't she kiss onstage (that would be a sin for the ortodox church wheter she'd do it with a boy or a girl)? Doesn't she do highly provocative dance moves? All those things can be seen as sin.

Good point there. I hadn't thought of that.

Originally posted by haku
Black people did not obtain the status of humans because "they looked closer to apes than humans and were obviously incapable to create a great civilization".

And what about Carthage? Or the Zulus?

[haku]

Originally posted by ypsidan04
Girls can kiss and hug their friends without being immediately looked at as gay. But a guy does that and........HE'S GAY ALL OF A SUDDEN!

Ha ha, well, here you can kiss your male friends, not on the mouth though, that would be a little too much , but cheeks are ok. Of course we kiss female friends too, also on the cheeks lol.

[QueenBee]

freddie, I believe everything is possible I can't remember really but, when I was younger I didn't like homosexuals very much either. It was because I was stupid and not "educated" enough. I just followed the mass... what a wonderful world we're living in, eh? But then I started thinking a little and I think some things even spread some light on me and made me realise homosexuality is GREAT, it's LOVE and it's about being honest to yourself. So, if something could change me I am sure I can change at least ONE person... And there is a possibility - you CAN convince a heterosexual to think homosexuality is okay. Actually, many of the times that 'heterosexual' isn't heterosexual at all. Get my drift? As haku said, if we wouldn't develop the earth would still be flat. And we develop by communicating and sharing opinions. Maybe someone who hates homosexuals lives in a place where homosexuality is a big sin - and poof! This person meets me and I tell him/her about what love I have seen in same sex couples.. Maybe it will at least make this person think! So it is not completely down the drain.

haku, the boys here (I'm talking about the boys 'cause I have no idea how men do it.. probably just shake hands) say hello by "hugging" eachother, but you know, that "gangsta hug" and sometimes nothing at all.. but the girls here kiss though.. and I kiss some of my friends, it's natural. *Never been called a lesbian *

[freddie]

Originally posted by QueenBee
freddie, I believe everything is possible I can't remember really but, when I was younger I didn't like homosexuals very much either. It was because I was stupid and not "educated" enough. I just followed the mass... what a wonderful world we're living in, eh? But then I started thinking a little and I think some things even spread some light on me and made me realise homosexuality is GREAT, it's LOVE and it's about being honest to yourself. So, if something could change me I am sure I can change at least ONE person... And there is a possibility - you CAN convince a heterosexual to think homosexuality is okay. Actually, many of the times that 'heterosexual' isn't heterosexual at all. Get my drift? As haku said, if we wouldn't develop the earth would still be flat. And we develop by communicating and sharing opinions. Maybe someone who hates homosexuals lives in a place where homosexuality is a big sin - and poof! This person meets me and I tell him/her about what love I have seen in same sex couples.. Maybe it will at least make this person think! So it is not completely down the drain.

Well then I hope you have better luck then I ever had. I never managed to convince one single person and I can be quite convincing! It's like telling to a simple christian that Jesus wasn't REALLY the son of god, but rather just a plain jewish rabbi, with hippie ideas. Of course it's true, but tell that to THEM.