USA - General discussion (Part 1)

[ypsidan04]

Originally Posted by spyretto

"you're either with us or against us", the ones who are with us get their nukes too

Right about that.

http://www.funnytimes.com/store/images/enemy.jpg - front and back of a t-shirt

I plan to purchase this in the not too distant future

And I dont understand your scripture.

[bpro50]

To sum up:
1) The US worked with the UN for years to build a consensus that included military action against Sadaam Hussein. Afer years of violating one resolution after another, the US initated an overthrow of Sadaam and his regime. It was not a popular decision with many of the core members of the UN council, namely France, Germany and Russia.
2) Several comments made in this thread accused the US of being Fascist, and using tactics of Hitler. I simply reminded these people that their accusations were unfounded, not logical and that extreme "isms" of the twentieth century came out of Europe not the US.
3) The US has strong ties with Israel and will support Israel. In terms of military strength, Israel needs no support from anyone.
4) War is hell. I will be glad when this war is over and I am thankful that the people of Iraq want to take control of their country. I am really amazed at the turnout whatever the motive for doing so. It indicates a desire to take control of their country.
5) I never stated that the US created democracy. That didn't come from me.
6) I believe in pre-emptive war if necessary. And, only after all other solutions have been exhausted. I have said before that I wasn't totally in agreement with the pre-emptive strike against Iraq but once done, it was necessary to follow through and complete the work of rebuilding Iraq. We have invested 200 billion dollars in that effort.
7) Even has recent as yesterday, Iran has made statements of a desire to move into dialogue with the US. That is a good sign.

I am not laughing at anyone just stating my opinion.

[spyretto]

1) Not true
2) You don't need fascism. You have mass propaganda and mind manipulation 24/7 and the results are more desireable. The Orwelian notions will mutate and gain new meaning in the "land of the free". We're more free than you, by the way, only we don't slam it on your face 24/7 as you do..
3) Don't go to a World War over it.
4) yadda yadda yadda...we'll see about that in practice when your troops leave Iraq for good...make it quick.
5) But since you liberated us all you brought democracy back. Hey, Pakistan has military rule and nukes...aren't you gonna liberate them too? no? why not?
6) Keep on believing in it, you're doing a great job at it.
7) yeah cause if they don't you're gonna fcuk them, excuse my expession.

oh ok, glad you made it clear now.

[bpro50]

Originally Posted by spyretto

1) Not true
2) You don't need fascism. You have mass propaganda and mind manipulation 24/7 and the results are more desireable. The Orwelian notions will mutate and gain new meaning in the "land of the free". We're more free than you, by the way, only we don't slam it on your face 24/7 as you do..
3) Don't go to a World War over it.
4) yadda yadda yadda...we'll see about that in practice when your troops leave Iraq for good...make it quick.
5) But since you liberated us all you brought democracy back. Hey, Pakistan has military rule and nukes...aren't you gonna liberate them too? no? why not?
6) Keep on believing in it, you're doing a great job at it.
7) yeah cause if they don't you're gonna fcuk them, excuse my expession.

oh ok, glad you made it clear now.

You've been visiting the terrorist forum again haven't you. You throw out the "nuclear" jargon like it's eye-candy. You better say your prayers, people like you don't have one.

[forre]

Shake it up ppl! Aren't we getting a way too aggressive here? Less offence please. Discuss political issues and NOT each other personally.
Spy, try to make a better choice of your words. Really, sometimes it's just over the edge.

[nath]

Originally Posted by spyretto

I just hope bpro50 is laughing his ass off with our reactions here and he's not for real. Because if he is, and that's the dominant political sentiment in the U.S. right now, we're all doomed. Better start saying our prayers now.

To sum up:

1) America brought democracy to the world
2) The Israeilis are America's blood brothers and the USA should protect them at any cost.
3) It is not condemnable for the Israelis to attack an Arab country with nuclear weapons if an Arab country is developing nuclear programs that could be potentially used against them.
4) Israel already has nukes ( but that's ok I guess )
5) Bush is so sophisticated even Ceasar would be envious of him.
6) The more America helps around the world the more it is hated for it.
7) Iran would be a "better" choice for attack than Iraq.
8) Mild torture techniques are ok to be used on muslim people under U.S. captivity
9) Europe's area of expertise is Nazism, fascism, communism and
10) Socialist ideology, which is equated to the above
11) France has not thanked the US enough for WWII.
12) Everybody knew Saddam had weapons of mass destruction but America was the only one who had the courage to do something about it ( so where are the weapons nath? "I believe" they had weapons don't say a thing to me )
13) Iran's violation of the UN resolution is the reason to be attacked. America cooperating with the UN equals handing over sovereignty to them ( talking about contradicting yourself there )
14) Pre-emptive wars are totally OK
15) To hate is the "Euro" thing to do.

Then you hail democracy in Iraq, just like Hitler hailed "peace in our time". Those are not opinions man, it's the new face of fascism you seem so opposed about. 24/7 US media propaganda is working wonders on the American youth. I suspected that Americans are losing their mind, now I'm convinced.
This forum is gettng nuts.
Bush has managed to divide the world and we're now moving towards a dangerous path. My friend who works in China was telling me that the communist regime over there speaks less about how great their country is that the Americans do...

Spy...why do you write like that ?...
I mean you use rethoric to disturn from its original meaning what we could think....and you know it...
I don't understand the purpose of a such post...we are discussing here...and we have different points of view...so why do you want to "show" us as extremists...we aren't ...and you are enough intelligent to know it...
So you exagarate everything...don't think it's the best way to discuss than to chose to deform what we say and we think...it is ?

Originally Posted by spyretto

12) Everybody knew Saddam had weapons of mass destruction but America was the only one who had the courage to do something about it ( so where are the weapons nath? "I believe" they had weapons don't say a thing to me )

You have your convictions, I have mine...am I allowed ?...my brain isn't a "google adict"....I'm 40 years old and I began to observe things , to think long before I ever knew what is google...so sometimes I have other things to do than to spend hours on the net to find references on google...
But if you are an expert about web , may be you could find a video which was on Al -Jazeera, yesterday night near...23h00...23h40...french hour...it was about uranium....I didn't have the reflex to record it on a tape to make it translate by my muslim/arabic friends...yes I have even if it could surprise you.....
On this report , Bin Laden "said"...in was written in english " We have Nukes".....so why did he play this game if he hadn't?....If it was strategic way for intimidation...may be it wasn't the best card to play...

I think , just before the war there were big movements which were repered by satellite in direction of Syria...if my memory is good , some members of al quaïda were arrested around Bagdhad....
I saw several FRENCH reports on FRENCH tv "Envoyé spécial" ...Haku knows...just before the war....where they showed how the visits for control of nuclear,chimical weapons were made by official organisations...and how there were a lot of suspect things....places which weren't visited because it wasn't programmed for the visit or rooms which seemed JUST CLEANTto be honest ...guys , iraqi scientific who spoke in an anonymous face and who were working about this stuff.......long time after all the illegal stuff has been officially distroyed...
We aren't stupid...if somebody tells me : " okay ....i'll come to visit your house in 2 months to see if nothing is suspect here"....I have TIME to CLEAN my House!!!

So...i have enough deception about your posts...that i find a little agressive...not sure it's the best way to drive a debate....
I think We didn't say with Bro ..".it's a goood thing, the best thing...that USA has attacked Iraq..."... We've said and thought (tell me if I didn't catch very well your thoughts Bro..) ..it would be better that diplomatic way succeded but as the things went in another way...now we are face to a situation...

In this new stuation (invasion of iraq) ...people treats USA as a shit!.....USA is treated to be WORSE than Saddam Hussein....WORSE than Talibans....so at the beginning , we read these kind of posts....and at a moment , it became unbearable!...why?....just because this unic direction was becoming worse and worse....and i know even pure ANTI BUSH who were a little irritated by them because they became TOO extremist.....
THAT's WHY WE REACTED.....

Now about occupation of Iraq by USA.....they are there...okay it's a fact...so the new "sentence "is ...WHEN they leave?
Me I don't want they leave now.....why? because it would be really criminal!!!...to let them with a civil war !!!!......you know very that in a such case, all the extremist muslim parties from ALLL the countries will sent all their monay , people to desabilize what is trying to be built....and to return to an extremist muslim power....
You know perfectly it !...

If regimes as Talibans , Hussein, or Iran and C° are your cup of tea....i could understand your point of view....if not ...let me believe that mine isn't so stupid....

USA occuped Germany after the War II.....or I'm wrong...or they left....

And your OIL!!........is really the Iraqi People who get benefts from it!!...for its all days life....I mean with all the big guns with a big part of massive gold which were the collection of dear saddam....a lot f Iraqis could have eaten for long months....

It's always SAD when people die....War is sad...I absolutely agree....but your determination, fury in wanting to show USA as equal as the worse dictatures....I disagree...

I hope the tone will change cause to agress people like that just because they don't have the same ideas than you , to try to intimidate them as you did...doesn't seem the best demonstration of an democratic exchange.

[nath]

PS: "Democracy separates God from Life and it's forbidden..."...declaration of one of the Sunnis Leader on Al-Jeezera today, the same guy who asked to Sunnis to boycott elections.....

[bpro50]

Originally Posted by nath

Spy...why do you write like that ?...
I mean you use rethoric to disturn from its original meaning what we could think....and you know it...
I don't understand the purpose of a such post...we are discussing here...and we have different points of view...so why do you want to "show" us as extremists...we aren't ...and you are enough intelligent to know it...
So you exagarate everything...don't think it's the best way to discuss than to chose to deform what we say and we think...it is ?

Thanks for your comments. I really do think there is a big misunderstanding about American policy for foreign affairs. I heard it said by a foreigner that the US has a lot of patience with its enemies but there is a limit. I think that Sadaam took one step too many in trying that patience. There is a lot of hatred for the US going on in the world right now. The relationship with muslim nations is under close scrutiny in the US. If muslim extremist continue to label the US as the "great Satan" and raise up a generation of children willing to commit suicide to kill American "infidels" then there is a limit to how much of that religious rhetoric that will be tolerated. There is an end to our patience with a people that continue to harbor so much hatred. That is the reason why we eventually root out so-called leadership that instills false beliefs in the muslim community and we will never trust countries that allow those kinds of people to threaten US security to build weapons of destruction. As long as the US is powerful enough and wealthy enough to enforce its will on those in opposition, I think you can count on it.

As far as those that differ with my points of view, I propose that you talk about ideas and not make personal attacks. Please.

[forre]

Originally Posted by bpro50

As far as those that differ with my points of view, I propose that you talk about ideas and not make personal attacks. Please.

bpro50, This rule applies to you too. So no need to tell spy that he visits terrorist forums.
US may be under the threat of arabic countries but there's no need to go against a country with a war. Are we defending ourselves or spreading the democracy? I'll tell you why EU reacts as it does. First we had weapons of mass destruction and now no one seems to speak about that. Now we are spreading democracy. There's no wonder that USA receives criticism.

[bpro50]

Originally Posted by forre

bpro50, This rule applies to you too. So no need to tell spy that he visits terrorist forums.
US may be under the threat of arabic countries but there's no need to go against a country with a war. Are we defending ourselves or spreading the democracy? I'll tell you why EU reacts as it does. First we had weapons of mass destruction and now no one seems to speak about that. Now we are spreading democracy. There's no wonder that USA receives criticism.

Well I think we beat that subject to death didn't we. There was reason to believe that there were WMDs (see Colin Powell's speech at the UN). Whether we found the weapons or not, this step in rebuilding Iraq would have been a part of a strategic plan. As far as spreading democracy, it does appear to me that the US President has made it clear that his hope and aspiration is to see the end of an era that allows tyrannist to rule in the world as dictators. That may not sit well in the European community and I understand the criticism but I think that is the vision that the current administration has.

As far as the rules, I "proposed" a solution that simply reiterated your own statement and my willingness to follow the rules. If someone makes a personal attack on me, I will try to ignore it but I am human.

[ypsidan04]

Originally Posted by bpro50

and that extreme "isms" of the twentieth century came out of Europe not the US.

"One shouldn't believe in '-ism's'. He should believe in himself" - Ferris Bueller

[bpro50]

Originally Posted by ypsidan04

"One shouldn't believe in '-ism's'. He should believe in himself" - Ferris Bueller

You got me there. Ferris is a great American statesman!

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by forre

Shake it up ppl! Aren't we getting a way too aggressive here? Less offence please. Discuss political issues and NOT each other personally.
Spy, try to make a better choice of your words. Really, sometimes it's just over the edge.

What is over the edge? All I did was to look through his extreme nationalist views and make a list of them. He has a tendency to go back into his shell and retract his dangerous positions and then appear as if he's saying something constructive. He was trying to befriend me by saying that he doesn't really mean all these things he says but then he's off again, like a well-oiled propaganda machine, an Edward Hyde of sorts.
You didn't reprimand him for calling me a godless terrorist and frankly, it's not me who is insulting only but all of you who live in Europe. His assumptions are also totally unfounded cause the guy obviously has no idea what he's talking about when he refers to European culture. He's already expressed opinions that are anything but democratic then goes back to say what a great thing democracy will be for Iraq. I try not to express opinions for things I don't know, but he does it all the time and pisses off people in the process.
The stuff that he writes here are passed from me around and discussed elsewhere - well, they're part of a public discussion and this is a public forum isn't it? - just to show what kind of sentiments exist in America right now - and people have laughed, marvelled, angered and despaired at the absurdity and extremism of his comments.
But it's good to know that people with such extreme views exist and let this be a lesson to everybody who think that America is a free country, and we're done away with the dangers of the past; let alone when such views come from young people. You decide if the young lad's views are the result of his free thinking or of a systematic brain-washing about the grandeur of America and the insignificancy of everybody else. He was born in the USA after all. TEXAS. Go figure.
Anyway, forre you disappointed me, but hey, no hard feelings. But if you guys respect equality, true democracy, human rights, and you're in for peace, you should be able to see through this guy.. Democracy and peace will come in the way of tolerance, not by the perpetuation of nationalist extremist views, like his.

If you people thought that GW Bush might pose a serious threat to world peace - I'm surely not alone in this - this guy is the evidence. He's an admirer of the intellectuality and sophistication of Bush after all, let alone his policies

[bpro50]

I wouldn't go to Europe and pretend to be an expert on your history, philosophy, politics, culture, etc. I spent about six years in Europe when I was younger but that doesn't qualify me to know much about your culture. On the other hand, the reason that I responded to comments that were so anti-American in the first place was because a lot of the opinions were not based on how Americans view themselves. Even the most liberal camps of American scholars would not be close to some of the posts on this forum. I considered them extreme and so I voiced a different opinion. I honestly don't think anyone on this forum is qualified to judge Mr. Bush's intellctualisim or his sophistication certainly not me. It is useless to evaluate how intelligent you think George Bush is. The thing I admire most about George Bush is his decisiveness. He has made some very difficult decisions in world affairs and I believe the result will be a more democratic and free world. Great leaders throughout history have always been unpopular to the naysayers in their time. George Bush could have a greater impact on world than any world leader since Churchill.

When I see the personal insults against Texas, democracy, my own patriotism, I marvel too that others don't really believe in anything except condeming those that do. I appeal to everyone to keep focused on the ideas of this discussion and leave the personal insults behind.

There is a movement in the world right now that is alarming. Islamism has a mission to destroy westerm democracy specifically the US as being the most "corrupt". They are fearful that our way of life is in direct opposition to the teachings of Islam. The fact that these people are living in mideval modes of tyranny must be dealt with. The US will not wait for the Jihad to materialize. We just won't. I admire this admistration for saying enough is enough.

[bpro50]

Freedom:

Some of you have made statement about Europeans being more free than the US. I am curious, what does that mean? How do you define freedom? One definition I like is the ability to understand the other man's point of view, know your own and have the ability to live out your life day to day according to the beliefs that you have. Other thoughts?

[coolasfcuk]

I have read most, but not all ... it is getting out of hand here ... spy, you judge bpro on not knowing Europe(ans) well enough to make conclusions ... well, you do NOT know America(ns) well enough to make your conclusions either.

Seems like both of you are taking extreme views and like bulls constantly hitting horns, but none of you even makes an effort to intake the other point of view .. (though bpro, tries to show like he does for a while)

Of course WB is a complete ... BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP, but I completely disagree with US being worse than Talibans and Hussein

US might have taken a 'rough' course the last few years, and it's making it go downhill right now, but lets face it ... Europe(and here i am reffering to EU) is NOT some utopian thing.

.. and please think again about America - such a young country with short history, and yet the World Power. The concept of people from all over the world (and mailny) Europe, immigrating here and starting/building this so fast is not to be underestimated .... and just think of the # of world 'brains' that come to US per year ....

... I just hope for the best, and that it can pick itself up .... and knowing its capabilities (US) i know it is possible

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by bpro50

There is a movement in the world right now that is alarming. Islamism has a mission to destroy westerm democracy specifically the US as being the most "corrupt". They are fearful that our way of life is in direct opposition to the teachings of Islam. The fact that these people are living in mideval modes of tyranny must be dealt with. The US will not wait for the Jihad to materialize. We just won't. I admire this admistration for saying enough is enough.

This is what I call extremism. Extremism, narrow-mindedness and gross generalization as a result of complete and utter ignorance. There is a counter movement in this world that is alarming too. America wants to take over the world. They're gonna do it by either subverting everybody or destroying those who refuse to be submissive. They started from Iraq and they're going to spread it out to the whole of the Arab world, then take on the rest of the world. The key word is "democracy". The motive is wealth. America will exploit the riches of the countries it subverts for their own benefit, bleed them dry and leave the crumbs for the rest.

Did you like that? No, I don't believe in that - at least not yet. This was an example of a counter idea to the one you're proposing. Islam wants to destroy you and you destroy it first right? Have you read the Qu'ran and this is how you make your assumptions? or is it part of the propaganda you're receiving and spreading 24/7? The bottom line is you should leave those countries alone to solve their own problems. If you cannot but mess into other people's business don't be surprised if the resistance intensifies...It might not be in Iraq it'll be wherever you strike next.
History post-WWII has shown that whenever you intervened you made things worse than make it better. How would you feel if somebody came to your country, subverted your government because, say, Bush is now considered one of the main threats of peace, and they put their own government instead? This is what you're doing over and over. The problem is not Saddam Hussein, he was a ruthless dictator who was not removed when he was commiting his crimes and when he should have been removed but "at the time of your choosing" - with your president lying to the whole world to have his way, and 12 years after when he was potentially harmlful. ( You're getting into "loopholes when you talk about Saddam don't you? People only need to take one look at your views to see how many inconsistencies are there. )
The problem is not Islam either, Islam has existed parallel to Christianity and it's a relatively peaceful philosophy, and how about the crimes commited in the name of Christianity? The problem is you. As the Arab world is in a different stage of development, maybe where the Christian world was 300 years ago, what do you do in return? You show them the way by the use of your might and your weapons and you breed more hatred and more intolerance. When you understand you're part of the problem you'll also understand you're part the solution. Until then, keep on preaching your nationalist ideas, but as I told you before, if you're so patriotic do something for a change: enrol in the US army and volunteer to go and fight Islam. Don't just write in this forum, hoping that by preaching your great American patriotic ideas you can convince the rest of the world.
By the way, I also don't believe that you've been in Europe, not for 6 years not even for 6 hours. You don't read as you have. As for democracy, democracy is to be tested, should be under scrutiny and constant re-evaluation to strengthen its foundations against totalitarianism as the ancient Greeks did. As a descentant of the people who founded democracy, I can tell you that your democracy sucks. You put a person up for president without having the popular vote. Your democracy is not democracy for democracy's sake but democracy for capitalism's sake.
Peace ( or war if you prefer )

Where are you people to defend our beliefs? you've left me alone to carry the heavy burden

[bpro50]

Distinguishing between Islam and Islamism
Center for Strategic and International Studies
Daniel Pipe

This is what I mean by extremism. Argue with the scholars, joy boy!


Islamism is an ideology that demands man's complete adherence to the sacred law of Islam and rejects as much as possible outside influence, with some exceptions (such as access to military and medical technology). It is imbued with a deep antagonism towards non-Muslims and has a particular hostility towards the West. It amounts to an effort to turn Islam, a religion and civilization, into an ideology.


The Islamists' success in Iran, Sudan, and Afghanistan, show that were they to come to power elsewhere, they would create enormous problems for the people they rule, for the neighborhood, and for the United States. Their reaching power would lead to economic contraction, to the oppression of women, to terrible human rights abuses, to the proliferation of arms, to terrorism, and to the spread of a viciously anti-American ideology. These are, in short, rogue states, dangerous first tho their own people and then to the outside world.

[coolasfcuk]

and this continues .... well, there is nothing we can do .... people at the - and people at the + but no one wants to think of the 0.

I agree and disagree with different parts of your arguments, both spy and bpro .. simply because one is on the - and one is on the + ... you are both extremists (if not in your actual believes, in the way you present yourselves on here) ...zhiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiihaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaa, you're perfect example of what is going on in the world right now .... if you want things to chance, look at your two selves and start by chaning yourselves - BOTH at the same time, and not one wanting the other to chance

piece from here as well

[spyretto]

Is that a scholar? He reads like a bigot

oh yeah, appointed by George bush, nice paradigm, cool

"Daniel Pipes is a neo-conservative, orientalist, extreme right-wing Zionist, and often expresses islamophobic statements. He is director of the Middle East Forum, and a columnist for right-wing newspapers. His father is Richard Pipes.

In 2004 Pipes was temporarily appointed by president Bush to the board of the U.S. Institute of Peace, but on January 17, 2005, "President Bush has failed to take any action to renominate…". The "nomination of Pipes, who has made a career out of identifying and denouncing what he sees as radical Muslim penetration of American institutions, was opposed by senators Edward Kennedy, Tom Harkin and Christopher Dodd, all Democrats; Arab and Muslim groups, including the Council on American-Islamic Relations and the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee; and Middle East analysts Judith Kipper of the Center for Strategic and International Studies and William Quandt of the University of Virginia." [1] (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/528405.html)"