USA - General discussion (Part 1)

[bpro50]

Almost 60 per cent of the people in Iraq cast votes today.

"This is democracy," said Karfia Abbasi, holding up a thumb stained with purple ink to prove she had voted.

It is a rare thing when we have 60 per cent of our people vote in an election here in the US and yet the Iraqis voted even though their lives are in danger. I salute the Iraqis and look forward to the assembly of a new Government. Building a democracy is a difficult and messy process. But what a great day for democracy and for Iraq.

[haku]

Democracy? Elections held under foreign occupation are not free elections. Those "elections" are rigged anyway, the results have been decided beforehand in Washington by the Bush administration. Now a pro-US puppet government is going to be installed and the US will continue to pull the strings, regardless of what the "Iraqi people" want.

And it's not 60% of the "Iraqi people" who has voted, it's 60% of the Shiites and the Kurds, but the Suniis didn't vote. The Shiites and the Kurds used to be oppressed by the Suniis and see that as a chance to take revenge.
Violence won't stop, the situation is now just reversed, the Shiites are going to have the absolute power and oppress the Sunniis who will fight back of course.
And the Kurds will also tighten their control in the north, working toward independence (and probably oppressing the Turkmen minority in the process) which will anger Turkey and may cause a military intervention.

Nothing is solved.

[nath]

This is the 1rst pluri-parties election since.....1953...
If the Suniis didn't vote , it's their problem!...It's sure that to call to boycott elections is the best way to make improve a situation...(we had the proof during the last President election in France... )
It's just a beginning of democracy....but it's a beginning .And people seem really happy to vote.

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by ypsidan04

I dont know, part of me thinks that conflict is mostly Greece's fault. They feel they have a right to islands that are a couple miles from mainland Turkey and a hundred miles from mainland Greece (I dont know the exact numbers, but you get my point). If they settled and drew a new border right down the middle of the Aegean Sea, that might help things. Plus Cyprus is another problem. If they could settle on one or the other having control of it - again I think Turkey is more deserving since it's closer to Turkish mainland - then that would be another problem solved. I know it's a complete independent nation, but I also think that the government is just a puppet for Athens and/or Ankara. And I know it's easier said than done, but if you look at it from a geographic standpoint, Greece has overstepped its bounds. But then there's the ethnicity problem. I'll bet that those islands off the coast of Turkey have ethnic Greeks living there, and they wouldn't want to have to live in Turkey all of a sudden or be forced to move.

You cannot be serious when you say these things. Why don't you hand over Alaska to Canada then, it's isolated from the U.S. and it's closer to them, I feel it's "fair" it should be part of their territory. Where did you read we feel we have the right to small islands that are a couple of miles away from Turkey? Is this propaganda coming from the U.S media? ok, some local idiots planted a Greek flag in one of the islands, then the Turks brought military forces to "occupy" them and put their own flag, LOL It was all macho BS.
But those barren islands belong in the grey zone -hence they're neutral- and it is Turkey who wanted to stake their claim on them; and frankly we're not gonna let them because we know that if we do let them, the next step will be to stake their claim in half of the Aegean sea. Violations of our airspace from Turkish airfighters are commonplace and this is how they're supposed to put pressure. You may think this is right too, hand over a few islands to the Turks; hell, hand over half of the Aegean that is closer to Turkey hand over territories which have been Greek from the dawn of time, and for which we spilled blood to get back and are recognised as Greek territories by international laws; hand them over to them cause it feels fair.

Plus Cyprus is another problem. If they could settle on one or the other having control of it - again I think Turkey is more deserving since it's closer to Turkish mainland - then that would be another problem solved.

You need to read a bit more on the subject. Cyprus has never been part of the Greek sovereignty in all history, except from the time where it belonged to the Byzantine empire but that was a continuation of the Roman rule. Yes, the indigenous population are Greeks but they settled there from time immemorial, they never occupied the island as the result of conflict. Then there were periods where the island came under foreign rule -namely the Romans, Ottomans and Brits - and periods that it was independent.There were talks about a possible unification with Greece during the 50s and 60s - there were those voices inside Cyprus who were saying that the island should be part of Greece since it's so culturally close but the influence was never as strong as mainland Turkey exerted on the Turkish-Cypriots; the plan never materialised. Instead the island became independent. The Turkish Cypriots were not happy about some of their previledges and the Turks took advantage of the political situation in Greece to invade the island. The Greek junda was planning to occupy the island and annex it to Greece, by force. The Turksish military regime reacted first and invaded the island, they were pushed back but managed to maintain more than one third. The Greek population was pushed to the south, and the Turks claimed all of their possessions. They established a military rule which became more moderate under Rauf Denktash permanent leadership - as he's getting older and fatter he was planted there by the Turks and only answers to the Turks - there's no democracy, how could it be anyway - and they established a green zone. The only country in the world that recognises the occupied part is Turkey.
At the present time there's no desire for Greece to "claim" Cyprus, an independent country, (I don't know where you got this idea from ) No desire from the Cypriot part to become part of Greece; the Cypriots don't answer to the Greek government or Greece. I cannot say the same about the Turkish Cypriots though, the island's been occupied. However polls show that the Turkish Cypriots themselves have become weary of the situation and the international embargo and would welcome the resolve of the crisis and the insuing unification of the island. The vast majority - I believe about 86% of them - voted in favour of the UN resolution; the vast majority of the Cypriot Greeks voted against it, despite the fact that the Greek government were pushing Cyprus to accept it Why? they simply have to bring on a better plan. The Greek part asks for compensation for the stricken population and the mutual withdrawal of Greek and Turkish forces present in the island. The plan does not offer that yet: it offers some compensation, not fair enough, and the troops go nowhere.. Annan is pushed by the Turks who think if troops are removed the Greek Cypriots will exert their influence on the island. That's inevitable. The Greek Cypriots are the vast majority of the population, even after the Turks brought people from the Turkish mainland to the occupied part of the island. It doesn't mean that absolute equality will not apply by law. But, anyway, I think that eventually the Turkish side will see what's the best for them and will seek independence from Turkey and reunification.
So nobody 's claiming the island ypsidan. At least I know that from our part. Greece does not lay claims on sovereign countries, we never did in the course of history and we're not going to do it now. They're Greeks like us and we feel for them, of course they're allies, and we seek a solution to their problem. what do you expect? To be enemies?

If you feel that the non-occupied, independent island of Cyprus should be handed over to Turkey because they got 1/3 of the island by force and because it's closer to them than it is to Greece, then let anybody wage a war against counties who feel they belong to them by "geographical right" - whatever that means
The Cypriot government a puppet government from Athens? Since when? How? Is the UK a puppet government of the U.S.? Is the Austrian government a puppet government of Germany? If you say yes, then I'll accept it.

[bpro50]

Originally Posted by haku

Democracy? Elections held under foreign occupation are not free elections. Those "elections" are rigged anyway, the results have been decided beforehand in Washington by the Bush administration. Now a pro-US puppet government is going to be installed and the US will continue to pull the strings, regardless of what the "Iraqi people" want.

And it's not 60% of the "Iraqi people" who has voted, it's 60% of the Shiites and the Kurds, but the Suniis didn't vote. The Shiites and the Kurds used to be oppressed by the Suniis and see that as a chance to take revenge.
Violence won't stop, the situation is now just reversed, the Shiites are going to have the absolute power and oppress the Sunniis who will fight back of course.
And the Kurds will also tighten their control in the north, working toward independence (and probably oppressing the Turkmen minority in the process) which will anger Turkey and may cause a military intervention.

Nothing is solved.

Iraqis risked their lives to vote. You are wrong about "rigged", that is propaganda from your camp. The US won't pull the strings anymore that any other country will influence Iraq when the process is complete. The soldiers were there to protect Iraqi citizens during the election from insurgents. You know all this but somehow your political leanings won't let you admit that this is a great step toward freedom. In a democracy, if you don't show up, you only hurt your own chances for representation. So, if the Sunnis want to stay at home, that is to their own detriment. This is typical of all of your comments, Haku, you criticise and condemn but you have no ideas, just condemnation. What do you suggest the next step should be now that the elections have been held? How would you ensure that the US is not "rigging" the election. You really sound like you have joined the other side to me.

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by bpro50

Iraqis risked their lives to vote. You are wrong about "rigged", that is propaganda from your camp. The US won't pull the strings anymore that any other country will influence Iraq when the process is complete. The soldiers were there to protect Iraqi citizens during the election from insurgents. You know all this but somehow your political leanings won't let you admit that this is a great step toward freedom. In a democracy, if you don't show up, you only hurt your own chances for representation. So, if the Sunnis want to stay at home, that is to their own detriment. This is typical of all of your comments, Haku, you criticise and condemn but you have no ideas, just condemnation. What do you suggest the next step should be now that the elections have been held? How would you ensure that the US is not "rigging" the election. You really sound like you have joined the other side to me.

You said you were gonna tone it down bpro50. Aren't you gonna keep your promise? I'm keeping mine Anyway, lots of celebrations on the American/British camps and I have to admit there was an air of optimism I felt as well, despite my misgivings. Nothing terrible happened so far...lets wait to see what happens from now on. The whole world is watching America now and is anxious about how you're gonna handle the situation. Lets hope for the best.

[bpro50]

British comments from Tony Blair:

In a brief statement at 10 Downing Street, Mr Blair said: "Democracy in Iraq is not just good for Iraq itself. It is also a blow right to the heart of the global terrorism that threatens destruction not just in Iraq but in Britain and virtually every major country around the world."

American Comments from George Bush:

Speaking at the White House within hours of polling stations closing, Mr Bush said: "The world is hearing the voice of freedom from the centre of the Middle East.

"In great numbers and in great risk, Iraqis have shown their commitment to democracy."

Iraqi comments from Iyad Allawi:

The whole world is watching us. As we worked together yesterday to finish dictatorship, let us work together toward a bright future -- Sunnis and Shi'ites, Muslims and Christians, Arabs, Kurds and Turkmen."


Terrorist comments:

Al Qaeda's affiliate in Iraq slammed the election, which was hailed around the world as a success, denouncing it as an American game.

"We in the al Qaeda Organization for Holy War in Iraq will continue the jihad until the banner of Islam flutters over Iraq," said the statement posted on an Islamist Web site.

Haku Comments:

Democracy? Elections held under foreign occupation are not free elections. Those "elections" are rigged anyway, the results have been decided beforehand in Washington by the Bush administration. Nothing is solved.

Terrorist Brave Actions:

Terrorists used a disabled child as a suicide bomber on election day, Iraqi interior minister Falah al-Naqib said today.

I humbly suggest once again that this was a huge step forward for the Iraqi people who risked their lives to vote. And, as a special treat, I won't speak my whole mind on the subject. I will tone it down. There, I did it.

[ypsidan04]

Why don't you hand over Alaska

Alaska was legally bought and paid for, but I really made an argument without knowing the facts, so nevermind.

the right to small islands that are a couple of miles away from Turkey?

Will you look at the map?

Greece controls everything in yellow

hand over a few islands to the Turks; hell, hand over half of the Aegean that is closer to Turkey hand over territories which have been Greek from the dawn of time, and for which we spilled blood to get back and are recognised as Greek territories by international laws; hand them over to them cause it feels fair

What's this "We" about? Are you a Greek descendent lving in Wales? And I agree with your statement there:

Originally Posted by ypsidan04

But then there's the ethnicity problem. I'll bet that those islands off the coast of Turkey have ethnic Greeks living there, and they wouldn't want to have to live in Turkey all of a sudden or be forced to move.

It's definitely a sticky issue, I don't deny that. And thanks for the history.

The Cypriot government a puppet government from Athens?

Sorry for making claims with litte knowledge of the situation.

Originally Posted by bpro50

Iraqis risked their lives to vote.

And a number of people did perish because of a number of attacks. But it's thankfully a small amount compared to the amount that voted.

You really sound like you have joined the other side to me.

And he still hasn't replied to my comments about his comments about Israel.

until the banner of Islam flutters over Iraq

What do they mean? It doesn't today? Of course it does. Or do they mean that Islam and Democracy are mutally exclusive?

[spyretto]

ypsidan04, read a bit of history before you express opinions on subjects you know nothing about. All those parts were Greek parts founded by Greeks and were taken away by the Turks were they descended God knows were from.
Byzantium (now Istanbul, previously Constantinople ) was founded in the 6th century BC and remained Greek until 1453 where it was occupied. Same with the coastal parts of Asia Minor. We hand over our islands we fought for back to the Turks? Never...we should be claiming Istanbul instead, because that was the centre of the Eastern Enlightenment and of Orthodox Christianity. I'm actually surprised that we don't have Istanbul. You have no idea how Greek and how magnificent Istanbul was. How about capital of the Byzantine empire? Ever heard of Ayia Sofia? The Ottoman Turks claimed something that was not theirs, the greatest Christian church in the whole of Eastern Europe ( Ayia Sofia ) and they turned into a mosque. They made their symbol out of a Greek symbol. Do you know that although they changed the name of the city, even this name they use is from the Greek? Is-tan-bul derives from Is-tin-poli meaning "on the Polis" ( Polis is from Constantinoupolis, Constantinople , of course. So the Turks couldn't even find a decent Turkish name for the city they occupy
So add the European part of Turkey and you'll see how the map changes. The picture is complete If you add the coastal parts of Asia Minor and then you have a perfect vertical virtual line and the map makes a lot more sense. Do it, and tell me how it looks. Well, that was the old Greece, if you'd like to know.

P.S.I'm not a descendant, you fool. I'm a 100% Greek who lives in Wales for the last 4 years. I thought you knew that. My English is not that great

[bpro50]

Originally Posted by ypsidan04

1) And a number of people did perish because of a number of attacks. But it's thankfully a small amount compared to the amount that voted.


2) And he still hasn't replied to my comments about his comments about Israel.


3) What do they mean? It doesn't today? Of course it does. Or do they mean that Islam and Democracy are mutally exclusive?

1) You are absolutely right. I can't imagine the courage that the Iraqi citizens had to be able to vote knowing that their lives were in danger. I thought the voter turnout would be low because of the pending threat. That is why I am amazed. It may be a game in some people's mind but not in the mind of those that risked their lives.

2) That is because his remarks were really uncalled for. Israel has been an unbelievable country to watch throughout history and especially in the past 60 years. I am proud to be their friend and brother. If that chaps the rest of the world then so be it, they are our friend. I don't think the some appreciate the fact that Israel will never allow their people to be persecuted or to suffer again like they have been historically. Those days are gone, thank God.

3) I think the big question for many is . . . will democracy work in Iraq. Honestly, I can only say that I hope that it does. And, like I said before, developing a democratic society is a slow and messy process, so there will always be naysayers no matter what progress is being made. And then there is another camp that just hates America and believe there is a hidden agenda in everthing that we do. And then you have the muslim extremist that believe we have evil all over us and we are descrating the holiness of their soil. Those will be hard to please also. The big benefit to having the US overseeing the rebuilding of the government is that no one else is going to mess with them except insurgents and ultimately I think they will be reduced to desert thugs unwanted everywhere with no country and few followers. They will be free to develop an economic infrastrure that might rival all of the other countries of the middle east i.e. Japan or South Korea or West Germany.

[bpro50]

Originally Posted by spyretto

My English is not that great

Neither is your Greek!

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by bpro50

Neither is your Greek!

Bpro, if you don't stop it now, I'm gonna post all the private messages you sent to me and expose you as the fraud that you are I think we're a bit of a split personality, aren't we?
Tell me, who is filling your brain with all this crap, is it the mama or maybe the papa? Oh, it's the mama...tell her to open an account with tatysite and speak her own mind. Using her child as a vehicle to do it is not decent.

[forre]

spyretto, bpro50, You, guys, are offending each other.
Spy, you know that we don't like people publishing Private messages here. It's a serious violation of the user's privacy.
bpro50, Keep your comments on spyretto's knowledge of Greek for yourself, please. It's not relevant at all and it sounds offensive.

[bpro50]

Originally Posted by spyretto

Bpro, if you don't stop it now, I'm gonna post all the private messages you sent to me and expose you as the fraud that you are I think we're a bit of a split personality, aren't we?
Tell me, who is filling your brain with all this crap, is it the mama or maybe the papa? Oh, it's the mama...tell her to open an account with tatysite and speak her own mind. Using her child as a vehicle to do it is not decent.

Thought I'd save you the time. These are my messages so I suppose I am within the rules of the forum. These are the Private Messages sent to Spy:



I wish you would quit making personal attacks toward me. And quit speaking on behalf of everyone else. You say, "I don't know why "we" keep responding . . . Try speaking for yourself and not for others. Do you think you can do that? I am tired of it. If you want to ignore my statements that suits me fine just don't try to convince everyone else to follow you. That is just not right and it is mean-spirited.
************************************************** ***********************

Well, thanks, and don't shut me out! We may have different opinions and be worlds apart but I enjoy your comments and I learn from you. I am amazed at how people around the world are so angry with the US and I really hope that it changes. I certainly don't think in any way that we are better than others but it hurts to hear Europeans berate the US. My family is from Scotland and Ireland so I feel a kinship with Islands and with Europe. I just hope that our policies and our differences doesn't affect our friendship in the short and long term.

************************************************** ************************

Thanks for your note and I will try to tone it down. You know you mentioned finding a forum where people agree with everything you say . . . well, that is possible, but I learn more and I am challenged more in my beliefs by trying to comprehend other people's points of view especially those all over Europe and other places. I hate it that there are so many stereotypes of the US and so much hatred pointed at us right now. And, if people are willing, I hope that we can get beyond Iraq. It's idealistic but I hope that Iraq can somehow get on its feet and we can get most of our troops out of there. The more I learn about politics and the history of political decisions, the harder it gets to see a "bright" future out there. For one thing, no one seems to look up to any of our political leaders any more. One of my favorites is Colin Powell but I am not too sure that anyone else likes him.

So whatever you all see of my mommy and daddy out there, have fun. You know , some have a sense of humor and some may not but this thread is suppose to be about US policy and not whether I have a split personality or not. Lighten up, please. Let's debate ideas and not personalities. Get it?


BTW - my comment about Greece was really just light-hearted humor. You guys put on a great show at the Olympics but that is a little off topic now isn't it?

[nath]

bpro50, coooolllll...... don't worry...it's like that on tatysite......passionnated....
Really ...so sometimes you have to go out and breath a lot of air or go for shopping or seeing friends...if not ...you break your computer!....truth!
Tatysite is a good school about life and teaches you a lot ...for exemple : how to controle yourself!

It's a kind post...just to tell you that everyone here has passed by this way...to be upset by some other posts....but after with time it's okay...(i tell you that but sometimes i have big problems to control myself too...hihi...but not in this thread...)...
So don't worry...and just be honest with yourself...and stay as you're : polite and trying to argue in an intelligent way...
And don't think that it's because people say nothing that they don't read you and that they don't agree with you nor appreciate your thoughts....

People here have a good heart...really ...sometimes tired or passionnated but they are good guys...so...really , don't be sick about this situation (i tell you that cause i was physically sick myself by some situations....and i'm still there... )

You'll see ... you'll enjoy tatysite...courage...and just stay yourself...if discussion brings another sight to you...admit it without shame....if not...just stay with your convictions...in a such case the NUMBER isn't important...it's just what you really feel which is important...cause they are some fashions which are as the WIND and could push people to say a thing and after its absolutely opposite....hihi...you'll see it's funny to observe...
EXCEPT HERE .... ...I mean Spy and Haku aren't "fashionable persons"...they just have too their deep convictions...Their convictions could be different from yours or mine , but they are really good guys...
So smile bpro50, okay ?....and don't forget to be patient....just TIME says in history and in life if you've thought right or wrong..! Tenderness

[bpro50]

Originally Posted by nath

bpro50, coooolllll...... don't worry...it's like that on tatysite......passionnated....
Really ...so sometimes you have to go out and breath a lot of air or go for shopping or seeing friends...if not ...you break your computer!....truth!
Tatysite is a good school about life and teaches you a lot ...for exemple : how to controle yourself!

It's a kind post...just to tell you that everyone here has passed by this way...to be upset by some other posts....but after with time it's okay...(i tell you that but sometimes i have big problems to control myself too...hihi...but not in this thread...)...
So don't worry...and just be honest with yourself...and stay as you're : polite and trying to argue in an intelligent way...
And don't think that it's because people say nothing that they don't read you and that they don't agree with you nor appreciate your thoughts....

People here have a good heart...really ...sometimes tired or passionnated but they are good guys...so...really , don't be sick about this situation (i tell you that cause i was physically sick myself by some situations....and i'm still there... )

You'll see ... you'll enjoy tatysite...courage...and just stay yourself...if discussion brings another sight to you...admit it without shame....if not...just stay with your convictions...in a such case the NUMBER isn't important...it's just what you really feel which is important...cause they are some fashions which are as the WIND and could push people to say a thing and after its absolutely opposite....hihi...you'll see it's funny to observe...
EXCEPT HERE .... ...I mean Spy and Haku aren't "fashionable persons"...they just have too their deep convictions...Their convictions could be different from yours or mine , but they are really good guys...
So smile bpro50, okay ?....and don't forget to be patient....just TIME says in history and in life if you've thought right or wrong..! Tenderness

You're great. I punt and plan to just observe but I so appreciate your thoughts and your wisdom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks again!

[spyretto]

I just hope bpro50 is laughing his ass off with our reactions here and he's not for real. Because if he is, and that's the dominant political sentiment in the U.S. right now, we're all doomed. Better start saying our prayers now.

To sum up:

1) America brought democracy to the world
2) The Israeilis are America's blood brothers and the USA should protect them at any cost.
3) It is not condemnable for the Israelis to attack an Arab country with nuclear weapons if an Arab country is developing nuclear programs that could be potentially used against them.
4) Israel already has nukes ( but that's ok I guess )
5) Bush is so sophisticated even Ceasar would be envious of him.
6) The more America helps around the world the more it is hated for it.
7) Iran would be a "better" choice for attack than Iraq.
8) Mild torture techniques are ok to be used on muslim people under U.S. captivity
9) Europe's area of expertise is Nazism, fascism, communism and
10) Socialist ideology, which is equated to the above
11) France has not thanked the US enough for WWII.
12) Everybody knew Saddam had weapons of mass destruction but America was the only one who had the courage to do something about it ( so where are the weapons nath? "I believe" they had weapons don't say a thing to me )
13) Iran's violation of the UN resolution is the reason to be attacked. America cooperating with the UN equals handing over sovereignty to them ( talking about contradicting yourself there )
14) Pre-emptive wars are totally OK
15) To hate is the "Euro" thing to do.

Then you hail democracy in Iraq, just like Hitler hailed "peace in our time". Those are not opinions man, it's the new face of fascism you seem so opposed about. 24/7 US media propaganda is working wonders on the American youth. I suspected that Americans are losing their mind, now I'm convinced.
This forum is gettng nuts.
Bush has managed to divide the world and we're now moving towards a dangerous path. My friend who works in China was telling me that the communist regime over there speaks less about how great their country is that the Americans do...

[forre]

Of course USA's international strategy will make the country unpopular! Since when starting the wars made a country popular?

Here, in the little, quiet Sweden we just had a very interesting case. Last summer, Swedish UN ambassador Pierre Schori left his post and returned home. On his return he left a report to the Sweden's Minister of international affairs. Guess what? The report has been classified. Now, the journalists managed to get this report which contains hard criticism towards USA's international politics. It says that USA's undermines the actual work of the UN's security council and uses it to achieve its own goals. It says that the was in Iraq developed into a political, economical and humanitarian disaster.

The criticism towards USA's international policy seems to come from not only media but international organisations too. At least we know now what UN ambassadors think.

[ypsidan04]

Originally Posted by spyretto

Do it, and tell me how it looks. Well, that was the old Greece, if you'd like to know.

P.S.I'm not a descendant, you fool. I'm a 100% Greek who lives in Wales for the last 4 years. I thought you knew that. My English is not that great

That makes a lot of sense now, yes.

Well, excuuuuse me!

I am proud to be their friend and brother. If that chaps the rest of the world then so be it, they are our friend.

Yes, of course me too. I might be the only one here who has actually traveled to Israel. I was there in 1999.

Originally Posted by bpro50

You guys put on a great show at the Olympics but that is a little off topic now isn't it?

Money Greece spent on 2004 Olympics: 9 billion dollars US

Money China plans to spend on 2008 Olympics: 37 billion dollars US

And why can they afford that? Because the US trading with them is making them rich! The Bush (and Clinton and Bush Sr and Reagan yada yada) Adminstration doesn't seem to mind givng a ton of money to a country that limits free speech, freedom of religion, strictly censors the media and the Internet, disregards rule of law by killing people with little or no charges against them, and continues to occupy Tibet. We have ceased trading with Cuba for lesser offenses.

Israel already has nukes ( but that's ok I guess )

Of course it is. Why do you think they are one of only a few countries in the world that has mandatory year of two of military service for men and women? Because they justifiably feel threatened. And if we can have them, and India and Pakistan can have them with little or no hassle from us, then Israel should be able to have them too.

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by ypsidan04

That makes a lot of sense now, yes.

Well, excuuuuse me!

You're forgiven

Yes, of course me too. I might be the only one here who has actually traveled to Israel. I was there in 1999.

And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face,
that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look
to the end of that which is abolished:
But their minds were blinded:
for until this day remaineth the same vail
untaken away in the reading of the old testament;
which vail is done away in Christ.
But even unto this day, when Moses is read,
the vail is upon their heart.

2 Corinthians 3 (13-15)

Money Greece spent on 2004 Olympics: 9 billion dollars US

Money China plans to spend on 2008 Olympics: 37 billion dollars US

And why can they afford that? Because the US trading with them is making them rich! The Bush (and Clinton and Bush Sr and Reagan yada yada) Adminstration doesn't seem to mind givng a ton of money to a country that limits free speech, freedom of religion, strictly censors the media and the Internet, disregards rule of law by killing people with little or no charges against them, and continues to occupy Tibet. We have ceased trading with Cuba for lesser offenses.

The USA is doing their best to subvert China and it's not going to be a difficult cause - no matter how much I admire their civilization - they're one of the weakest empires. The Chinese have a bad trait in their personality, they're extremely greedy and selfish and the Americans know how to take advantage of that.

Of course it is. Why do you think they are one of only a few countries in the world that has mandatory year of two of military service for men and women? Because they justifiably feel threatened. And if we can have them, and India and Pakistan can have them with little or no hassle from us, then Israel should be able to have them too.

That's what happens when you plant a country by force in an Islamic dominated region. Oh, I should have known Americans love the Jews so much...well, fair enough. Bush loves them too, he'd rather go into a global war than see them perish
Justifiably or not, if Bush is ready to go to war with whoever threatens to develop nuclear weapons - or is it only whoever threatens to develop nuclear weapons who are muslims and in close vicinity to Israel - I don't see how it's ok for Israel to have anything more than conventional weapons, even if they're armed to the teeth as they are.

I don't know about India but Pakistan as your great ally in Asia is of course entitled of having them. Interesting...I guess the good guys can handle the nukes while the bad guys can't..."you're either with us or against us", the ones who are with us get their nukes too
(-But Pakistan are muslims too! and they've military regime, aren't we gonna liberate them too?
- oh never mind that, they're our friends...friends go for free )