Something Interesting For All My Slavic Brothas & Sistahs

[freddie]

Originally posted by zebu
maybe you are a yugo-nostalgic person and it's fun for you to say serbo-croatian language, but it's really insulting for me.

that language was made up during the communist era which was long approx. 50 years and before that that 'language' never existed. we fought really hard to preserve our language, maybe you are not familiar with the big fights croatian linguists had during the yugoslavia to try to keep the language, but we were forced to use it. also here it was always called croato-serbian and never really accepted by the people. most of that expressions and words are gone now.

and if your evidence is that before it was one language, that's just ridiculous because we all know that long before it was ancient-slavic that almost all slavic nations spoke so... maybe you don't see the difference between the languages because you aren't a native speaker and learned only that artificial ser-cro. , but i see a much greater difference that between German language in Austria and Germany. because Croatian and Serbian ARE different languages.

I've writen a buch of arguments why I think they are basicly the same language and you haven't answered me to a single one.
NO! Serbo-Croatian most certainly wasn't born in the communist era, but rather MUCH before that. Infact it was Vuk Karadzic who made the biggest influence of "serbian" language on the croatian one. But even BEFORE that both languages shared the oh so similar south slavic background (similar to Macedonian and Bulgarian)... they were so close together that you COULD mesh them artificialy... If there were two very distant languages you wouldn't even have a possibility to do that (Imagine meshing french and spanish? Hardly). The fact is that they have been the same languages for more then a 100 years (there was a common SHS kingdom even before the communism if you remember), and they were coded as the same language. They were seperated after yugoslavia feel apart, but that was done just as forcefuly and artificialy as they were put together.
The thing you have to know is this: hundreds of years back there were no slovene, serbian or croation languages. Those are all artificial enteties. There were DIALECTS...And those dialects still differ very much within ONE language (there are dialects in Croatia that MUCH more resemble slovene language then leteral croatian or serbian language, and there are dialects within croation itself that diferentiate MUCH more then there is a difference between Serbian and Croations. And those differences are naturaly and not politicaly inflicted.
Actualy I don't really know which version I was using, but the one I did they understood me perfectly both in Zagreb and in Belgrade. Yet they didn't understand me as well if I used slovene (eventhough it's a very similar language as well).

I'm not a Yugo nostalgic by any means. I know well that there are historical differences between South Slavic nations, but there are also undenialable similarities which bother so many people when they shouldn't really.

Originally posted by zebu
freds, it's not insulting me... i don't even care about that b/s with those languages. we r all the f*ckn same, just people.

Good way of looking at it.

[zebu]

The fact is that they have been the same languages for more then a 100 years (there was a common SHS kingdom even before the communism if you remember)

of course i remember, and i remember how long it lasted about 30 years,so 45+35 isn't even 100. and the fact that it was officialy the language it doesn't mean that people spoke that was, because they didn't.

it is a common known fact that during the time that croatia was under austria and that was from from the 16th century and under hungary from 12th century croatian was spoken, and before that croatia was a kingdom were croatian was spoken, our first king ruled in 10th century and first written document in croatian language originates from the 1110.in 15th century croatian dictionary was published in venice and in 16th croatian grammar was published in rome,there are so many other facts that can prove that croatian is a language and not a dialect. i don't know if you alredy know all that stuff.

and for mentioning karadzic, that he influenced our language, so not true, and you must know what his ideas were. he called all of it serbian and so on.. and the thing he did took one dialect to make serbian language more unite- it has already been done in croatia.

there are people who study croatian at the university, croatian language institutes, croatian grammars, dictionaries, cro language professors- you think you know better than them?

maybe it's better if you read this, since i am not a linguist, it is better explained here

i am not going to argue about it anymore and i wouldn't even answered at all, but i just didn't want people to know the truth, since you presented your opinion as the truth and it just isn't.

[freddie]

Zebu I don't knwo more then croatian professors or linguists, I'm just not nationaly biased. Those professors are LOOKING for differences, and deny the stuff that is common. Did you read what I wrote? I didn't say croatian was a dialect. Infact croatian language is made out of 3 dialects and even slovene ooriginates out of one of those. The language (like all of them) EVOLVED out of those dialects. It's just tough luck (for some), that serbain language evolved out of one of those dialects as well.
First written document in croatian language originates from the 1110? What?! This is what I gathered from some pages on the net: "In the opinion of linguists, probably even in X-XII century all Slavs spoke generally the same language, with very slight differences." That means ALL slavs (Polish, Russians, Bulgarians, Croatians you name it). I'm not saying they spoke THE SAME language but it was a very similar one... what was then known as crioation would be completely uncomprehedabe to you (closer to old-church slavic language then modern croatian.) The first document in Slovene was from around the year 1000 (Brizinski Spomeniki, first slavic document written in latinic writing). And do you think I understand something from that? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. It's much closer to old church slavic or Bulgarian then to modern slovene. I couldn never call that slovene language. And neather can you call an 800 year old manuscripts as croation. If so then I dare you to read something from it. That language was just the basic out of which croation evolved. And serbain language was part of that evolution as well weather you like it or not. If there weren't for serbian then Croation would be completely different then it is today. There wouldn't even be a discusion about wheter it's the same language or not.

And that link you gave me is so terirbly nationalisticaly biased it hurts. That's what I call forcing the issue. For a non-biased look I'd surely look for a more objecive look, from an outside. From people that are not nationaly biased cause of the messy past. I'll make it easy for you. There ARE differences between the two languages. And they are well documented. Here are ALL differences that exist. Now you be the judge if that's enough for a different language or not. I can name many more differences between different dialects in Slovenia (also grammatical), but I wouldn't go as far as naming them differenct languages UNLESS I was politicaly motivated.

[zebu]

If so then I dare you to read something from it. That language was just the basic out of which croation evolved.

I already read it, we studied it at school, of course it wasn't the same croatian as today but we understood it. I actually have the replic at home, it was found on Krk, in church near Bashka and is a document about king Zvonimir giving some land to the church.

[freddie]

Originally posted by zebu
I already read it, we studied it at school, of course it wasn't the same croatian as today but we understood it. I actually have the replic at home, it was found on Krk, in church near Bashka and is a document about king Zvonimir giving some land to the church.

Be honest. Which language is closer to the language you call croatian today? Serbian or antient croatian? Which do you understand better?