Major U.S. Chain Store Sued Over CD Lyrics

[ypsidan04]

You mentioned Duality. That's a good song and I don't even like Slipknot. It's not full of their raging vocals.

Soundgarden made progress as a band, from Louder Than Love to Badmotorfinger, from Badmotorfinger to Superunknown, from Superuknown to Down On The Upside. They were part of the big three from Seattle, with Pearl Jam and Alice In Chains. ( I don't count Nirvana and grundge )
The same cannot be said about RATM though. Their first album was great but then they were struck into a repetitive cycle.

Well you're right. And I like Soundgarden too. But I prefer Rage. You have it your way. Let me put it this way though: Is RATM unique? You better damn well believe it. Is Soundgarden unique? Eh...not really.

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by ypsidan04

You mentioned Duality. That's a good song and I don't even like Slipknot. It's not full of their raging vocals.


Well you're right. And I like Soundgarden too. But I prefer Rage. You have it your way.

it's just taste at the end of the day. First album by RATM was excellent though.

[ypsidan04]

We're like chatting in real time so you keep replying before I'm fully done with my posts. Here's what you missed.

Originally Posted by ypsidan04

Kittie: Holy crap, who knew chicks could rock that hard! (never heard em before now). Thanks for mentioning them. I got a new band on my shopping list! So is the lead singer (or anyone else for that matter) as gay as they look?

Originally Posted by ypsidan04

Let me put it this way though: Is RATM unique? You better damn well believe it. Is Soundgarden unique? Eh...not really. I mean the band, not Cornell.

[spyretto]

haha, Kittie Yeah they do rock hard but there's nothing underneath. L7 were a lot lot better and Babes In Toyland - well, lets just say Kittie were kinda influenced by them.

Why aren't Soundgarden unique? Who did they sound like? and don't tell me Black Sabbath
Yeah RATM were a novelty, no doubt about it. But so were so many other bands.

[Mossopp]

Can I just ask why you say that Kittie were influenced by Babes In Toyland and L7? L7 were grunge, Kittie are a rock band - there are no similarities other than the fact they're all female.

I'm not getting into another debate. I just don't see the connection between those bands at all.

[spyretto]

I didn't say they were influenced by L7, just BIT, in terms of intensity. I don't know what the connection in sound between all those "grunge" labelled bands are. ok, BIT, Mudhoney, Nirvana, first Foo Fighters, Hole, Helmet, Smashing Pumpkins had similar "grungey" influences but Pearl Jam grunge? L7 grunge? Pixies grunge? The genre included bands who had no similarities at all.

[Mossopp]

Correct me if I'm wrong (I want Dan's opnion on this) but Foo Fighters, Smashing Pumpkins and The Pixies are not grunge. With the exception of the Pumpkins none of them have any "grungey" influences in their sound either. Just cos Dave Grohl was in arguably the most influential grunge act of all time doesn't mean that Foo Fighters automatically have to have a grunge element to their music.
The Pixies definately aren't "grunge" because they were around before that genre was even invented! By Cobain's own admission if it weren't for The Pixies, Nirvana would never have existed! The Pixies were, you could say, the forefathers of grunge (although I don't particularly favour that term myself).
How you can say that Pearl Jam and L7 aren't grunge is a mystery to me. As far as I am concerned both those bands are perfect examples of the genre!

And, in regard to your nu-metal opinion (yes, that old chestnut )

There's no real progression with nu metal. Bands sound the same as they did when they started cause they have nothing new to offer.

Listen to the new Papa Roach album and see if you still think that way! It's a perfect example of a previously stereotyped band really breaking out of their pigeonhole.
I think the whole notion of critising a genre for "sounding the same" is a redundant one. A genre is, by definition, a term used to describe a collection of things (be it bands, movies, books) that share similar characteristics. If all bands were so radically different to each other then there would be no need for genres at all. Of course, that is never going to happen.

[spyretto]

The first Foo fighters album was VERY grungey, as far as the guitar play and drumming determined that sound. Then - to their credit - they changed their sound and became... Foo Fighters. The Smashing Pumpkins were such a diverse band that saying they were grunge wouldn't do them justice.
What is grunge anyway? To me it was nothing more than a counter-movement to traditional hard rock/heavy metal, with bands that had no or little musical similarities. Was it Seattle? L7 didn't even start from Seattle - but Queensryche did. Are they supposed to be grunge? I don't think so
So, without an inkling of sounding controversial, could you please give me a definition of grunge, and then we can work it out and see how L7 and Pearl Jam fit into that category - I suppose in that case they sound similar as well?
Yeah, I presume Papa Roach did away with the rapping parts didn't they? They did sound - as well as Kittie - very nu metal to me. Can you suggest a couple of songs by Papa Roach to check them out? I'm not saying that it's impossible that something better can come out of that scene.

If nu metal is rock, then how can grunge not be rock? - that goes to your comment about Kittie and L7, BIT.

And the bottomline of my comment is that great bands are above such classifications and labels. A weak band may be subject to a classification because they copy somebody else. That goes to nu metal - I'm afraid - cause it can be "pigeonholed" very easily.
And in the danger of sounding controversial again, to me, the best heavy rock music is essentially pop music in its structure. ( there are some exceptions, though i.e. grindcore )

So everything started from pop, and only the intensity changes. See Black Sabbath's Paranoid for example, that is a collection of great pop tunes if anything else

About your last comment, I think genres - especially when it comes down to subdivisions of subdivisions - is something that the music industry invented to grossely generalize things to their benefit - and when they couldn't fit it properly , they "invented" even more genres. Ever wondered why bands don't like to be called "heavy metal" and prefer the term "rock" or "rock 'n' roll"?
So you can call everything "rock" and enjoy the music if it does it for you, or try to categorise them into all sort of different subdivisions and then moan when a band don't fit in that category anymore, call them "sellouts" and posers.( not talking about you, especially )
(classic example: Metallica who, after inventing "thrash metal" went to do other things and allegedly "sold out"
I, for myself, prefer to enjoy the music instead

[Mossopp]

What is grunge anyway? To me it was nothing more than a counter-movement to traditional hard rock/heavy metal, with bands that had no or little musical similarities. Was it Seattle? L7 didn't even start from Seattle - but Queensryche did. Are they supposed to be grunge? I don't think so

So you’re telling me that you can hear no similarities whatsoever between Pearl Jam, Soundgarden and L7? Even Alice In Chains - who were a lot heavier - had a strong, noticeable grunge element to their sound.
And no - grunge bands don’t need to come from Seattle. The movement started there but to say that a band has to come from a certain city in order to qualify for inclusion in the genre is just laughable! Metallica are from Seattle (as I’m sure you are aware) but they aren’t, weren’t and never will be grunge.
Grunge is still alive and kicking these days. Take Seether for example - you only need to listen to the first few tracks on their debut album to know how indebted they are to Kurt Cobain. Shaun Morgan sounds eerily like Kurt on some songs. I saw Seether play ‘Drain You’ live in Glasgow and if I closed my eyes I could almost believe it was Kurt who was singing on the stage!
And where do Seether come from? Seattle? No. The west coast of America? No. They're from South Africa! Hardly a hotspot for grunge bands, even back in the 90's!

Yeah, I presume Papa Roach did away with the rapping parts didn't they? They did sound - as well as Kittie - very nu metal to me. Can you suggest a couple of songs by Papa Roach to check them out? I'm not saying that it's impossible that something better can come out of that scene.

For a decent example of Papa Roach’s new sound check out ‘Scars’, ‘Take Me’ or ‘Be Free’. In fact, pretty much anything from the last album ‘Getting Away With Murder’ (with the possible exception of the title track). They’ve got a much more “heavy rock” vibe now. Jacoby even sounds spookily like Steve Tyler on ‘Be Free’!

If nu metal is rock, then how can grunge not be rock? - that goes to your comment about Kittie and L7, BIT.

When did I say that grunge wasn't rock?? All I said was that the only similarities I saw between Kittie and L7 is that they’re both all-female.
Perhaps Kittie did have certain nu-metal elements on their first album (see ‘Brackish’ for example - which is fucking great song BTW) but that’s all but gone now. I think the reason Kittie are still tagged as nu metal by some people is because a) they’re young, b) they came out around the time of the nu-metal explosion and c) a lot of people got their first glimpse of Kittie as the support on Slipknot’s first UK tour.

And the bottomline of my comment is that great bands are above such classifications and labels. A weak band may be subject to a classification because they copy somebody else. That goes to nu metal - I'm afraid - cause it can be "pigeonholed" very easily.

Wait, let me make sure I’m understanding you. What you’re saying is that if a band is good then they cannot be pigeonholed into a genre. Being easily classifiable is a sign of being “weak”.
OK, so can you not classify Black Sabbath as heavy/stoner rock? Can you not classify Led Zepplin as prog? Can you not classify (early) Metallica as thrash metal? Are you saying that since we can label all these bands into a certain genre that they are “weak”? Wow, I’ve never heard anyone call Sabbath “weak” before.
The “bottom line” is that if a band makes music then it’s gonna be pigeonholed - by music journos, by record stores, even by the fans. And if they can’t find a genre to put it in then they’ll just invent a new one. Yesterday I discovered that one of my favourite bands, My Chemical Romance, are “post-hardcore” (according to Metal Hammer anyway). And here was me assuming they were just a regular emo/punk band.

And in the danger of sounding controversial again, to me, the best heavy rock music is essentially pop music in its structure. ( there are some exceptions, though i.e. grindcore )

Hmmmm, I don’t know how far I agree with you on that point. But I’ll let it go.

So everything started from pop, and only the intensity changes. See Black Sabbath's Paranoid for example, that is a collection of great pop tunes if anything else

“Weak” pop. Don’t forget the “weak” part.
And I really do disagree with this. Sabbath, pop? No way.

About your last comment, I think genres - especially when it comes down to subdivisions of subdivisions - is something that the music industry invented to grossely generalize things to their benefit - and when they couldn't fit it properly , they "invented" even more genres.

Genres are a necessary evil. It does get out of hand sometimes - see my previous “post-hardcore” example. All this “-core” business is starting to piss me off. “Metalcore” I could deal with and we’ve always had “hardcore”. But now we’ve got “emo-core”, “screamo-core”, “post-harcore-screamo”………. I mean, for fucks sake, gimme a break already!
However, a world without musical genres is just crazy. How would you know what to avoid? Like, you’re in HMV and Slayer and Slipknot are sitting in the CD racks right next to Simple Plan and SClub7 - think of what a fucked up world that would be to live in!!

Ever wondered why bands don't like to be called "heavy metal" and prefer the term "rock" or "rock 'n' roll"?

I’ve never heard of any band claiming to dislike being called “heavy metal”. Name one band who does - and gimme their exact quote.
I don’t like the term “rock n roll”. It sounds so out-dated - like something my parents would say.

So you can call everything "rock" and enjoy the music if it does it for you, or try to categorise them into all sort of different subdivisions and then moan when a band don't fit in that category anymore, call them "sellouts" and posers.( not talking about you, especially )

There’s nothing wrong with bands breaking out of their particular subdivision of the rock spectrum - hell, it worked for Metallica (for a while, anyway)! Sure they were labelled “sell-outs” but every band sells out eventually. When you were listening to Sabbath back in the day did you ever imagine that Ozzy would be part of something as crass and commercial as ‘The Osbournes’ on MT-fucking-V?!? Not likely!

It looks like this is back to a one-to-one conversation, just me and you spy. Where'd Dan get to?!

[spyretto]

No I don't see similarities between Pearl Jam and Soundgarden - other than Temple of the Dog and Soundgarden's drummer joining Pearl Jam? There may be similarities between Alice In Chains and Stone Temple Pilots? But when I think of grunge I can only think of Nirvana - or bands who copied them eg. Puddle of Mudd.

It's all very subjective. For instance, freddie thinks that Audioslave sound almost identical to RATM, and their record is the natural progression of RATM's records. Dan regrets that Audioslave don't sound much as RATM
Can we say Metallica sound like Slayer? Or Slayer sound like Megadeth or Megadeth like Exodus? Cause they too were associated with a specific genre but they're not quite similar are they? Perhaps they were similar when they started but their progression renders all those efforts to pigeonhole them quite laughable.
Metallica from Seattle? No I think they really started from L.A. and so did the rest of the thrash metal bands ( L.A. or S.F's Bay Area ).
I think "Getting Away With Murder" was slammed by some Papa Roach fans? So you're probably right about that, I'll check it out.
Post-hardcore? Then for L7 I'd say they can also fit the "post-punk" genre - if such genre exists, I'm thinking of Bad Religion, The Offspring, Green Day.
HMV only has a metal section. They don't have "nu-metal", "power-metal" "goth-metal" and the like. And many times I see some stuff there that make me wonder - eg. Lacuna Coil are labelled as metal cause they appeal to metal fans - without necessarily being metal themselves. It'd do them more justice if they were included in the rock section.
I think Sabbath are kind poppy ( see Paranoid ).
There are a lot of bands who didn't like to be called "heavy metal", but it'd go back a long way, and then you'd probably say "oh that's not metal anyway". In fact the only band who were using the term consistently - to the point of becoming a joke - were Manowar
But I guess new bands would rather say their music is metal if that made them sell more.

( are we not making the rest of lurkers here yawn from boredom? - I hope not )

[Mossopp]

You're right - Metallica are from San Francisco. My bad. My brain is fried tonight but I shouldn't have let such a glaring error slip by.
And I don't care if the lurkers are "yawning from boredom" cos I'm enjoying this discussion. They are more than welcome to join in as long as they have something constructive to say.

But when I think of grunge I can only think of Nirvana

I think that's part of the problem. So many people think that grunge began and ended with Nirvana. As far as I'm concerned Alice In Chains were the best band to have emerged from that whole scene, but how many people remember them now? I didn't learn of Layne Stayley's death untill over a week after it had happened, yet I knew of Dimebag's murder in less than 24 hours. It puzzles me as to why this was the case. When Kurt commited suicide there were candle-lit vigils in his honour. Even Dimebag made the cover of Kerrang. Where was Layne's tributes? He was just as fucked up as Kurt, yet Kurt's made a hero while Layne is just forgotten (or so it seems to me, anyway).

Post-hardcore? Then for L7 I'd say they can also fit the "post-punk" genre - if such genre exists, I'm thinking of Bad Religion, The Offspring, Green Day.

There must be something in the water where you live, spy! You would categorise L7 alongside such pop-punk fluff as Offspring and Green Day???
Post-punk, as a genre, certainly exists but none of those bands you mentioned belong in it. Bad Religion are punk. They've been around for ages - if it weren't for them Green Day and Offspring wouldn't be where they are. As for the latter 2 - they are pop-punk, pure and simple. Perhaps not to the same extreme as, say, Simple Plan, but they are pop-punk nonetheless.
Not that pop-punk is always a bad thing. There are some true horrors lurking under the 'pop-punk' banner but it's not all bad. It gets an underserved beating from a lot of people who have only seen Good Charlotte on 'Top Of The Pops' and assume every band is like them.

HMV only has a metal section. They don't have "nu-metal", "power-metal" "goth-metal" and the like. And many times I see some stuff there that make me wonder - eg. Lacuna Coil are labelled as metal cause they appeal to metal fans - without necessarily being metal themselves.

Yes, I know that HMV only has a metal section - the scenario in my previous post was only a hypothetical one. I do see your point though. As far as HMV is concerned "if it's been in Kerrang! it's metal". Hence the reason I've found the likes of Simple Plan and Good Charlotte lurking alongside oh-so-many death metal bands with indecipherable names when I browse the shelves.

[spyretto]

Hey we kinda agree there. Alice In Chains were so much better than Nirvana could ever be ( those vocal harmonies between Staley and the guitarist were fantastic ) and I deem Bad Religion as a more important band than those other two - and with a longer career. Controversially enough, I also think Foo Fighters are better than Nirvana. (shock! horror! )
L7's Everglade & Fast And Frightening - among others - sound very punk to me but you could also say they're grunge or whatever, it don't matter. But I just checked on yahoo launch page and I quote:

Although often lumped in with the "Seattle Movement" of the early '90s (due to their sound, look, and attitude), the all-female punk band L7 hailed originally from Los Angeles.

So I don't think it's something in the water
And I'm afraid I'm one of those who think that grunge started and ended with Nirvana - though some elements of grunge remain until today. To me the grunge sound is defined by that guitar sound - hence it could be argued that song like "Zombie" by the Cranberries retain that grungy feeling. I might be wrong. Other than that I've no clue what grunge is. ( response to hair metal? )
Good Charlotte were lurking in the metal section? That is strange indeed since you'd expect them to be in the pop/rock section as they're immensely popular. I can't imagine a GC fan having to look in the metal section to find them That metal section is a bit of a mess, actually. You can find anything in there, from punk to the Gathering and then what you expect to find there is rather in the pop/rock section. It's a conundrum as far as I'm concerned

edit: Although, to be fair, Nirvana with "In Utero" showed signs of maturity, and I think that was their best album.

oh, and also to add something else: I have a friend who only listens to different styles of punk rock. Examples: Misfits, Crass, Dead Kennedys, Descendents, Cyco Miko and some others which I can't remember. Well, guess what: L7 - especially post-"Bricks Are Heavy" work was part of his playlist; and I don't think that was coincidence.


I also watched Some Kind of Monster. It's a pretty good documentary actually. Mustaine appeared as a big-time loser in those shrink sessions, he even went so far as to say that he'd give up anything if 20 years ago Ulrich passed him on to AA than sacking him. And how lousy it was to always feel second best to Metallica no matter what he did ever since.
Another shocking part of the documentary was that Bob Rock and Ulrich literally deprived Kirk Hammett from having any solos on the album ( cause it'd make it "dated" as they put it ).
-Never mind that Kirk was adamant against that idea saying that using no solos would "cement the album to that particualar period, to a trend in music that's happening right now" - we know what he meant by that, don't we? Needless to say, Ulrich and Rock had their way. Kirk appears as a bit of a puppet in this documentary and Ulrich is able to have his way all the time, even with Hetfield.

[ypsidan04]

Originally Posted by Mossopp

Correct me if I'm wrong (I want Dan's opnion on this) but Foo Fighters, Smashing Pumpkins and The Pixies are not grunge.

I'm really not familiar enough with those to say.

Listen to the new Papa Roach album and see if you still think that way! It's a perfect example of a previously stereotyped band really breaking out of their pigeonhole.

Well I don't know about that. But speaking of "pigeonholes" that's exactly what Sum 41 seem to be doing with their new CD. Sometimes sounds like System of a Down, sometimes like Metallica. And I didn't make that up - I read that in a few reviews, and then with that in mind, I can really see the similarities. But it's not much like they used to be.

But when I think of grunge I can only think of Nirvana - or bands who copied them eg. Puddle of Mudd.

And Seether. And Bush. All good bands btw.

I saw Seether play ‘Drain You’

What in the world....Never heard of it. And yes he sounds a whole lot like Cobain. Definitely closer than those other two singers.

I don’t like the term “rock n roll”. It sounds so out-dated - like something my parents would say.

That's definitely right.

Originally Posted by Mossopp

Where'd Dan get to?!

This isn't my only forum.

Originally Posted by spyretto

No I don't see similarities between Pearl Jam and Soundgarden - other than Temple of the Dog and Soundgarden's drummer joining Pearl Jam? There may be similarities between Alice In Chains and Stone Temple Pilots?

Look, the way I see it, you gotta be pretty keen to tell the difference between Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice In Chains, and STP. I mean STP originally faced a lot of criticism because of how similar they sounded to Pearl Jam (their first CD anyway).

Where was Layne's tributes?

Well he wasn't completely ignored

[Mossopp]

Originally Posted by ypsidan04

But speaking of "pigeonholes" that's exactly what Sum 41 seem to be doing with their new CD. Sometimes sounds like System of a Down, sometimes like Metallica. And I didn't make that up - I read that in a few reviews, and then with that in mind, I can really see the similarities. But it's not much like they used to be.

Yeah, you're right. I haven't listened to all of the new Sum41 album - I've never been a fan of theirs and I'm still not convinced after having heard 'We're All To Blame - but they have certainly made a massive change of direction. It can only be a good thing - the whole snotty-nosed pop-punk thing is really starting to bug me.

And Seether. And Bush. All good bands btw.

Seether are phenominal but I've never gotten into Bush. They just never really appealed to me.
On a side note; do you think Bush will change their name now that it's commonly associated with..........that guy?
I'd seriously consider a name change if I were them!

What in the world....Never heard of it. And yes he sounds a whole lot like Cobain.

You've never heard 'Drain You'?? It's track 8 on Nirvana's 'Nevermind' album.

Look, the way I see it, you gotta be pretty keen to tell the difference between Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice In Chains, and STP. I mean STP originally faced a lot of criticism because of how similar they sounded to Pearl Jam (their first CD anyway).

Yeah, but STP broke away from the grunge tag quite quickly though, didn't they?
I agree you'd be hard push to notice any major differences in sound between Pearl Jam and Soundgarden, but Alice In Chains always stood apart from the rest of the Seattle bands as far as I'm concerned. They're lyrics were a lot darker and the music was much more brooding and aggressive.

Well he wasn't completely ignored

Oh, cool. I'm not a Staind fan so it's understandable that that song could have passed me by. Nice tribute to Layne, there.

[ypsidan04]

Originally Posted by Mossopp

I'm still not convinced after having heard 'We're All To Blame

Really? That's a great song. It's got System of a Down written all over it, let me tell you. Not just the sound, but the fast-slow tempo changes, and even the lyrics I can imagine fit right in.

Seether are phenominal but I've never gotten into Bush. They just never really appealed to me. On a side note; do you think Bush will change their name now that it's commonly associated with..........that guy?
I'd seriously consider a name change if I were them!

Well they haven't released an album since 2001, so I don't even know if they're still going strong. And they are from Britain, so I wouldn't put it past them. And I don't like them much, but they're okay.

You've never heard 'Drain You'?? It's track 8 on Nirvana's 'Nevermind' album

Oh that explains it, it's not original. Maybe I have, but I don't recognize the name.

Yeah, but STP broke away from the grunge tag quite quickly though, didn't they?

Yeah, you bet. They were quite similar to Soundgarden in the fact that they changed noticably from one album to the next. But their first album which I have is definitely grunge and is their best IMO, not including the Greatest Hits album. But their best song I think is "Interstate Love Song" from the second album.

but Alice In Chains always stood apart from the rest of the Seattle bands as far as I'm concerned. They're lyrics were a lot darker and the music was much more brooding and aggressive.

Yeah, you're right on second thought.

Oh, cool. I'm not a Staind fan so it's understandable that that song could have passed me by. Nice tribute to Layne, there.

Yeah, I like Staind a lot. I have their second and third CDs and will get their first sometime soon. And they are releasing a fourth album this year, but no set date yet. So is Seether, Evanescence, Lacuna Coil, hopefully Audioslave, SOAD is releasing *two*, Lucerin Blue, and maybe Linkin Park too. This is gonna be good year for music, at least from my point of view.

[ypsidan04]

http://music.yahoo.com/read/news/22715489

- They refuse to carry CDs that aren't completely clean, even if there's only two instences as in this case. As if swear words are anywhere near the top of the biggest problems facing mankind.

- They have tried to build stores on top of a Native burial ground in Hawai'i, and very near an ancient Aztec ruin in Mexico City. Both were extremely insensitive and arrogant. I don't know if they were able to build those or not, but there was much protest.

- The reason they are so cheap is probably because a good amount of their products are made in East Asia, specifically China. They put more money into the Chinese economy than the whole of Russia and the whole of Great Britain. And I prefer not to support a country that is among the worst human rights abusers on Earth.

Originally Posted by Amnesty International

Tens of thousands of people continued to be detained or imprisoned in violation of their fundamental human rights and were at high risk of torture or ill-treatment. Thousands of people were sentenced to death or executed, many after unfair trials. Public protests increased against forcible evictions and land requisition without adequate compensation. China continued to use the global “war on terrorism” to justify its crackdown on the Uighur community in Xinjiang. Freedom of expression and religion continued to be severely restricted in Tibet and other Tibetan areas of China.

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/chn-summary-eng

Walmart has had countless lawsuits against it claiming unfair treatment of employees. They're putting local "Mom and Pop" stores out of business. And finally, you can get the exact same stuff for just about the same price at Target and KMart, among others.