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As far as my understanding of immgrants go, being one myself, I think it is safe to assume that all immigrants leaving a country for another do so with the innate understanding that in order to fully integrate/succeed into an accepting society they are going to have lose a bit of their culture/identity. Not they themselves, per se, but rather their children's because honestly I can't see any possibility of a fully formed adult totally abandoning their initial nationality. Adult immigrants also lose high prestigious jobs for low-paying jobs no longer occupied by white people (e.g. cab drivers). Seems like a lot but any immigrant would do that in order for their children to gain opportunities not possible in their home country. And their children do gain that opportunity, or at least they should.
See, it is like a give/take situation, but it doesn't only apply to immigrants but also to the host country. That country should leave room over time for the other generations of children of immigrants to grant them upward social mobility. These children have to have the chance to aim higher. To do that would involve the country losing/sharing some of the monopoly it has over the culture, identity and even power it once had. And naturally the country would change dramatically, for the better IMHO.
The US is exemplary in this, their identity has changed over the last hundred years. The children of Italian/Irish/Jewish/Polish/etc. immigrants eventually becoming millionaires, politicians; some even becoming presidents, shaping identity of the nation. Keep in mind though that many of those immigrants' worth was considered beneath that of Black people way back when. Of course it was/is easier having them integrate than having Black people integrate, but even though the US has criminally delayed their admittance into getting opportunities others have enjoyed (and still do, but more of that later) the contribution the Black people have made to American culture says a lot.
I don't think the problem in France lies mainly with the immigrants but rather with the government. I sorry, but giving rent-free apartments, gov't provided vacations and no jobs is pretty much the shittiest social plan I have ever of. Immigrants don't come to start a new life by becoming freeloaders (and they certainly don't come to bitch about their adoptive country), they come to work hard and earn a decent living for their children. That money for vacations and free rents should be redirected to give businesses incentives to employ immigrants. The impression that is coming from Europe is that most countries are not offering opportunities for first and second generation immigrants. It was the second generation immigrants that started and participated in the riots. As history dictates, it is the second generation that personifies the success stories. nath, you briefly mentioned that it is harder for people with non-French names to get jobs than it is for people with French names even when they are both qualified, but perhaps this deserves a lot more focus. These people are not getting the opportunities they deserve, they aren't getting the very thing they solely came to the country for. What is the point of getting an education when you do can do nothing with it?
Are they even starting to participate in French discourse?
Is there a fair immigrant representation of French politics?
If they isn't any of those, then honestly I think the riots were justified; all other means to get these issues to the surface were exhausted and proved ineffective. There is nothing like a riot to make people pay attention and act.
The question, I think, really is if France (and other European countries facing the similar situation) willing to give up a part of themselves, their identity for the sake of their immigrants?
Do you dread, or look forward to having the national music of France with a strictly North African rhythym to it? Can you see having a Turkish German Chancellor, and voting for him/her? The most succesful high-paying actor/actress in Sweden being Somalian and people lining up to see all of her/his movies?
These are all superficial examples but basically what I trying to say is if Europe is willing to change their identities as much, and maybe moreso as the US has changed.
You may say yes nath, but I don't think too many Europeans would like that.
PS: And just a question, because I have heard this from a few German and French people, but are immigrants actually considered French/German/Italians/etc. or are they just "Citizens of France/Germany/Italy/etc?
PPS: KillaQueen, usually I'd jump all over that but so many people I know who are sooo not racist have those very same sentiments when speaking of gypsies. I swear to God, for the longest time I didn't think gypsies still existed and the only gypsy I could conjure up in my head was Esmerelda. Horse drawn carts? Seriously? Like what, are they race or something?
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