[freddie]

Originally Posted by socialite

I really can't follow you there, freddie. Unlike Japan, Germany admitted the war crimes and took responsibility for it.
It's totally wrong that discussing the topic will land you into prison. While it is true, that Nazi symbolism is prohibited in Germany, it's absolutely not the case that Germans try to sweep the era under the carpet or erase it from their minds. The opposite is actually the case. You are bombarded with it. There's no epoch that's tought more excessive in history class than these 12 years. And not just in one year. The topic comes again year after year after year. There's also no week in television where there isn't at least one documentary about anything Nazi/WWII related. And I'm not talking about the documentary channel.
No topic is raised so often in the media. Any topic, not even remotely related to nazi germany, can kick-off the discussion.
So the Israel army massacred palestinians again? Be sure to read one article criticising Israel and 50 articles discussing whether the historic responsibility allows Germans to critcise Israel.
Tobbacco ads banned in all EU countries! All EU countries? No! One tiny germanic country in the heart of europe still allows them and conducts a lawsuit against the EU. Too bad that the nazis thought smoking was bad for the "Volkskörper" (the people's body) and banned tobacco ads. Be sure to see huge cigarette placards all over present day germany.
Sometimes you can only shake your head how some people manage to connect nazism with everything.
You're right when you observe that some people bow in shame when you bring the topic up, but your conclusion is wrong. It's not because people try to cover the era up and prefer that you remain silent about it. It's because the media imposes a collective guiltiness in the minds of all germans. They cringe because they feel guilty and are ashamed.
There's a growing number of people in my generation (even my grandfather was too young to fight in the war) which are fed up with the excessive coverage of the nazi era in the german society (it really is excessive, even compared to the ww2-obsessed uk) and resist the idea that they are held responsible for something that was way before their time. But these people are not the ones to cringe, when the topic comes up. You rather have a vivid discussion with them.

I have to say that I've yet to meet a german who'd want to have a vivid discussion about the topic with me.

Originally Posted by socialite

No sane german denies the holocaust.

Okay not deny... it's hard to deny something that was so blatant and obvious (though there are some who'll claim the holocaust was greatly exaggerated but that's a whole different story altogether.

Originally Posted by socialite

If you started this thread because of my response in the "football thread": It was just the last word, "classy", that bugged me. It sounded like you could go to no football match in germany without encountering right-wing hooligans chanting "Sieg Heil" with the right arm lifted.

I haven't started it for that reason (I didn't even notice your response till you pointed it out to me right now). As for my comment in that thread: I was just comenting that specific situation, not the general attitude of german fans (I think it was understood that was a small crowd of hooligans who did the provoking).

Originally Posted by Haku

I have to admit that i don't really get your point either freddie. Germany is eluding WWII? Germany is *obsessed* with WWII actually in my opinion, i have never seen a country feeling so guilty about a past event and beating itself over it on a daily basis, it becomes sometimes a neurotic obsession and reaches insane levels.

Look at Japan, Japan has done its fair share of war crimes during WWII and modern Japan is really not too bothered about it. WWII Japanese soldiers (including kamikazes) are considered heroes, and neither Japan as a nation or Japanese soldiers as individuals (not to mention the late emperor who was the ruler during WWII) are held responsible for anything. Actually Japan often sees itself as ultimately a victim of the war since the US had the incredibly stupid idea to launch two nuclear bombs on civilians just to see what they would do to people.

Look at Russia, the Soviet regime has caused more deaths than the Nazi regime, and yet you don't see modern Russia too bothered about it. Modern Russia is not bothered either by the fact that they oppressed several Central European countries for half a century, sending the Red Army and massacring civilians each time those people made an attempt to free themselves.

And if we stick at WWII war crimes, there were also war crimes committed on the Allied side that are today still totally denied. The bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, and the bombings of Dresde and Hamburg are war crimes, they had no military goal and their sole prupose was to kill tens of thousands of unarmed civilians just for the "fun" of it. Tens of thousands of unarmed civilians, men, women, children, died in atrocious conditions during each of those bombings, and nobody on the Allied side was ever held reponsible, the countries that made those bombings don't even recognize that there was anything wrong with such a massive massacre of civilians, a clear case of denial.
(Bombing Dresde was also a crime against the World Heritage since Dresde was an historical monument as a whole, destroying it was an outrageous act, even the Nazis never considered massively bombing Paris as a viable option because of the historical value of the city and the irreplaceable loss it would cause, the same thinking on the Allied side should have applied to Dresde.)

Modern Germany on the other hand totally acknowledges the war crimes commited during WWII and everything is done to make modern Germans feel guilty about it, it's even going too far in my opinion.
I don't believe in collective responsibility and inherited responsibilty.
The son of a serial killer should not have to apologize to the families of the victims of his father and be reminded everyday of his crimes. And i don't think that forcing a son to watch everyday pictures of the butchered victims of his father will ensure that he will grow up into a kind and caring human being that will never repeat what his father has done.
And here we're not even talking about sons, but grand-sons, and grand-grand-sons, and grand-grand-grand sons who have to apologize for, feel guilty about, and remember what their long gone anscestor has done.
It has become pointless and ridiculous because like i said, i don't believe in inherited responsibilty.

It's not about inherited responsibility, nor Germans (at least in diplomatic stance) eluding WW2. I'm not even saying sons should be paying for sins of tehir fathers or grandfathers... I'm just saying they should recognize it as objective reality, rather than some satanic curse that deluded the nation for 12 years. You say they're obsessed with it... from what I've seen they're more obsessed with making it seem... presentable and distant and at the same time forbidden and (very foolishly) even ILLEGAL. The sheer fact that nazi symbolism is forbidden in any shape or form shows some kind of paranoia (that goes especially for the nation which spawned it all in the first place). Though I do agree with you it's a neurotic obsession... but it's showing in all the wrong ways. Again Societe claims exactly the opposite to what I'm claiming but that's my subjective view of the matter, from what I've seen and talked to people. Not to mention I have some inside view as well - my grandfather was a German from Collogne (he's the 10% of German blood in me, besides all the slavicness), and he had to be a part of Hitler Jugend like so many else. And like you said.. it was/is neurotic obsession, but it was the wrong kind. An exercise in making oneself feel better, I'd say.

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

well said Haku. Like I said earlier I've never been tp Europe, so I don't really have a clue what it's like... but Your comments on inherited responsibility are so true. I do not in any way blame modern Germany for the crimes committed against my family. That is absolutely ridiculous, I also think it ridiculous that German media goes so far to make people feel gulity about something that their forefathers did. It would be like blaming me for the bombing of Hamburg and Dresden because my grandfather made the bombs.

Of course. Don't get me wrong. I'm not pointing a finger at anyone or suggesting modern Germans should feel guilty about something their grandfathers did. The opposite... I'd rather see their accepting it as something that doesn't need tobe swept under the rug. Something that doesn't need to be made illegal, because I'm sure that has an opposite effect to what the legislator expected.

Originally Posted by spyretto

I don't see your point either freddie. What are they supposed to do, revel in the darkest era of their history? Pretend they are "ok" with it? discuss it in what level, these things happened 60-70 years ago, the new-generations of Germans are as relevant as we are with them ( only that they carry the guilt of their forefathers. )

None of the above. Pretending they're okay with it? Why pretending? Why not BE okay with it... be okay in the sense of accepting it and not reating it as a secret satanic cult that needs to be abolished. Like Haku said... neurotic obsession... but I may add that obsession is more about making themselves feel better and distant rather than REALLY being okay with it.

Originally Posted by spyretto

I've known a few Germans, and yes, the subject of the Nazi and the Holocaust is an ambarassing topic for them but I havn't sensed complete aversion. You should try to approach the topic in a carefree way, if possible. Yes, they'd rather avoid discussing it if they could and I would do the same if I were a younger generation German.

I on the other had HAVE sensed complete aversion. There's no way of going about it... once you mention the topic it's considered as somekind of a personal offence. That's kind of understandable up to an extent, since most people will get all defensive around the topic since they sense you're pointing the finger at them. Which doesn't neccesarily have to be the case... but in this case it almost always is.