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Old 29-04-2007, 11:40   #60
simon simon is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: England
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Originally Posted by la aurora View Post
The war has an ugly face. Hatered, sorrow, revenge, hunger, fear, tiredness - all twisted by propaganda. Those people had their own excuses to commit crimes no excuse can justify. But it was happening in all armies, including Allies. Because the war is like that. And there were other stories with great sacrifices made, unbelievable acts of kindness and love to humanity. It's also true for all armies including German one. Just because western media is more interested in writing about one kind of aspects of the soviet army doesn't mean others never existed. I have no reasons not to believe the article you linked here. I just hope you realize that your view on story is pretty much one-sided due to having only western sources of information.
Actually, it doesn't work that way in the west. Unlike in the USSR and Putin's Russia, alternative viewpoints aren't suppressed by the state. There is a lot of self-criticism about things that were done in the past, such as colonialism. Many countries that were once ruled by Britain removed all the memorials the British put up. Britain doesn't do anything about that. British people don't get angry that people in those countries aren't grateful for having been colonised.

It's absurd to make out that what the western allies did is equivalent to what Stalin did in eastern Europe. Did the US and UK deport millions of people to their death in labour camps?

The western allies did do things that were wrong, but nothing they did was comparable with what Stalin or Hitler did. Stalin was as evil as Hitler and he killed a lot more people. For the Estonians, the Soviet occupation was at least as bad as the Nazi one.

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People in charge often make their decisions with reasoning that's quite far from human one. All governments had their interests and limitations. Everyone took what he wanted and what he was allowed to take. Authorities often have no right to be human when it comes to pushing the interests of their country. Idealizing someone in this war is just wrong. Yes USSR did use the opportunity to gain control over Eastern Europe. Because they could and no one said 'no' including USA that had nuclear monopoly back then. I'm personally against such kinds of actions but I'm also against one-sided view on the history.
So are you saying the US should have fought a war or used nuclear weapons to prevent Soviet occupation of eastern Europe? That it's their fault that Stalin murdered millions of people in the countries he occupied? The US didn't do that in the countries they liberated and nothing they ever did was anything like as bad as what Stalin did.

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Stalin's regime is something russians suffered from just as much as those people in Eastern Europe. It was unhuman in many ways. But people that fighted against Hitler and believed they are doing a good thing were human and importance of soviet army in that war shouldn't be understimated. History should be full and not twisted.
But people that fought against Stalin on the German side also believed they were doing a good thing. That doesn't mean there should be statues celebrating their heroism.

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They don't selebrate the Victory Day anymore. At least it's not as important as it was in USSR times. They decide to remove the monument for the soviet soldiers that died there because it reminds them of soviet regime and nationalists use it as a place for their meetings. But at the same exact time here in year 2007 they officially allow the celebration of the Day of Waffen SS Legioners. Now that doesn't bring up any painful memories and they politely ask nationalistic parties that plan demonstrations for the day to 'please behave and express their opinion (they have democratic rights for) in a civilized way'.
It's completely untrue that the Estonians officially celebrate the Waffen SS Legionnaires. Estonia is a democracy where people are allowed to hold demonstrations. It's not like Russia where anti-government demonstrations are violently broken up and the participants arrested, as happened in Moscow and St Petersburg recently. In a free, democratic country even people we don't agree with are allowed to hold demonstrations. It's scary that you don't understand that.

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I've recently had my ways crossed with ways of some young citizens of Poland. I don't remember what I said exactly but it was something innocent like us having a lot in common in our languages and cultures. The reaction was them furiously demanding for me to never never never use names Poland and Russia in one sentance. And it happened more than once in last year. Different people, all pretty young and not exactly stupid but full of hate. I wonder what they write in books nowadays.
And how about forbidding russian language in latvian schools? And have you heard what young Ukrainians feel towards Russia now with all those 'revolutions'?
As a Brit, I'll give you some advice. Don't expect people from countries that your country victimised to be grateful for it. I wouldn't dream of telling Irish people or West Indians, for example, that we have a lot in common in terms of language and culture. I know it would be an incredibly tactless thing to say because the strong British cultural influence is due to colonialism and oppression. A bit of contrition about what was done will go a long way. We do it, so you can do it too.

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There's something really fishy going on and I find it quite scary. Some countries are running full-speed into direction of democracy. But they use soviet-like propaganda to achieve the result. They twist history, deny the culture, raise up hate. It's not my idea of democracy and seeing this being praised by western media doesn't make this media any trustworthy in my eyes.
The Soviet-style propaganda is in the government-controlled Russian media. Russia needs to understand that it has to sincerely apologise for the crimes of the past like Germany did to the Jews and Britain did to Ireland. It's unreasonable to expect people in countries that experienced the horror of Soviet occupation, mass rape, mass murder and mass deportations not to feel bitter about it. Russians getting angry with them for being bitter about what was done just shows insensitivity.

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It's not about loosing satellites, it's not about believing that the war is about to start, it's not about being paranoid. It's us, civil citizens to 'like' or 'dislike', 'be afraid' or not. Military guys have no right to think this way. They must make sure that if something happens, the country won't find itself weak and helpless. It's their job. They can't rely on good will of current governments of other countries. This all can change in no time.

USA being the big military power they are, plan to put their bases close to our borders without asking for anyone's permission (not for the first time).
Actually, they did get the permission of the countries where those bases are to be located. It would have been more accurate to write: "The US plan to put bases in countries close to Russia that that have been occupied by Russia in the past and joined NATO for future protection. Those countries have the cheek to invite the US to put bases there without getting Russia's permission."

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Things add up, USA expands their military force. Those bases of course are not a big threat on their own but they are a part of a big military system and in case war happens, they will give USA just another advantage. Russian military guys can't pretend it's cool because they can't afford being not prepared for such situations even if they don't expect the war anytime soon.

Plus the more powerful strategically the country is, the louder its voice is on political and economical field, the easier it is to push its interests forward in many discussions that aren't military related, the more independent it is. We don't want to see the infamous World Arbitor to 'help' us in solving our inside problems one day. Of course with these bases or without, we still have the magic red button, multi-million population and a lot of military devices. But it's a step in direction that goes against our interests. That's why we do mind.
I see. If other countries that have previously been occupied by the USSR want the Americans to protect them that goes against Russia's interests. Well, of course! But try looking at it from the other person's perspective.

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Western Europe wasn't behaving agressively for quite a while now. I guess if USA was out of NATO, it would be much easier for us to get along. I don't really notice much paranoia when it comes to European countries. But your military systems can be used by USA and this country loves getting its nose in everyone's business lately without caring what the rest of the world thinks. You don't appear too peaceful and harmless when you are together.
The US isn't going to attack Russia. That's a fantasy. You have thousands of nuclear weapons. What Russia is really concerned about is that it won't be able to bully its neighbours as it's doing to Estonia right now.
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