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-   -   [Epilogue] Tatu In Podnebesnaya. Release from 14.03.04. [aka Ep. 14] (http://forum.tatysite.net/showthread.php?t=7002)

la aurora 15-03-2004 23:46

well... I don't think this last episode really meant anything. It's not like Mansky showed anything new here. Only things we knew already. This his last phrase “Today, group t.A.T.u. stopped their performances and the recording of their second album. Old songs remain with us.” Is a total bullshit. It sounded like a funeral speech. But 14th wasn't the day when everything stopped. It happened much earlier and we know it. The reason of this last title is pretty obvious. Mansky was working on this documentary and RS for how long already? 1-2 years? Quite a lot. It's something he devoted so much time and effort. But he realises that it's a film. Iven if a documentary one. But still a film... movie... whatever you call it. It should have the final point. And several month ago Mansky promissed this point will be set on the 14th March 2004. Sure that time he believed it was going to end with a second album. Alas! Things went the way they went and although nothing is clear now, Mansky just needed this final point. He's chosen the tragic one. He could say it all was going to change to the best and it would be as true as the claim 'TATU is over' at the moment. Just movies where main hero dies leave more emotions in viewers' hearts. So the guy decided to play this card. I won't write a full report this time as the whole episode consisted of videos mostly. But the last scenes are worth attention I think. Thing looked really touchy and could make a true fan really cry. But it's still was just a montage. Mansky used the phragment from Bonn concert where Yulia and Lena were saying a long good bye. It's was just good-bye for the ppl at concert but put in the contest of everything that goes on now, it sounded like a final good-bye from TATU. After girls said they were going to perform their very last song (for the concert), 'Ya budu' video appeared on the screen as that 'very last TATU song'. And the video for it seemed to suit the whole situation perfectly. Footage from their moments of fame mixed with Lena in metro and Yulia in the bus... and finally those few seconds without any background music where Yulia was standing in some dirty yard looking like a homeless kid. Everything staged and montaged perfectly to cause fans' tears. Look... they were TATU and now just 2 usuall girls... It's was just for the show, guys. Mansky's work is over, more likely, and he just needed to make an interesting ending for his work.

As for his words about TATU having no future... I see where his ideas come from. He said 'TATU have no future without Ivan'. But he didn't say TATU had any future WITH him. The point was 'the girls grew up. they are not those cute tiny schoolgirls that conquired the world claiming they love each other'. This is something that is gone forever. And no producer (Ivan included) can bring those times back. They can record new songs, do whatever they want. But it was THAT trick that worked. TATU weren't just about music and we all know it.

Edit: and staringelf... Mansky is not the only one who believes Ivan was the ONLY producer in Russia. He was the only one to breakthrough to the west and he is one of really few who's work doesn't make one sick. Shap is not the only one? Who else?

nasnedagoniat 15-03-2004 23:57

Thank you sunny poison. I really love you for your reports and for giving more hope to us English speakers about this situation. *kisses*

Rob 16-03-2004 00:03

Quote:

Originally posted by nasnedagoniat
Thank you sunny poison. I really love you for your reports and for giving more hope to us English speakers about this situation. *kisses*
Imagine a "Yeah That"-smiley here. :)

forre 16-03-2004 00:22

sunny poison, Thank you indeed. :rose:

Unplugged 16-03-2004 00:29

Quote:

Originally posted by sunny poison
Shap is not the only one? Who else?
KIPER! :yes:

la aurora 16-03-2004 00:40

You are all welcomed :D I just thought it's wrong to panic about something not worthy... we have more than enough true reasons to :gigi:

and staringelf, Kiper? Don't get me wrong. I like the girl and songs she writes. But PRODUCER? Producer is someone who 'produces' not just writes music. As far as I know Nichya is not even in russian charts. And many ppl know about the band only thanks for TATU. i know, they reached 11th place in Czech charts or something. But that's not enough to call her a great producer. May be she will be one day. But not now.

haku 16-03-2004 00:42

Thanks a lot for the report sunny poison :rose:

I know it's not easy to explain things to us. :D

Unplugged 16-03-2004 00:48

Quote:

Originally posted by sunny poison
and staringelf, Kiper? Don't get me wrong. I like the girl and songs she writes. But PRODUCER? Producer is someone who 'produces' not just writes music. As far as I know Nichya is not even in russian charts. And many ppl know about the band only thanks for TATU. i know, they reached 11th place in Czech charts or something. But that's not enough to call her a great producer. May be she will be one day. But not now.
She doesn't just write songs, she is also a producer for Nichya. So what if it's not on the charts? It's quality music with quality lyrics, and without any gimmicks. Maybe if she would take off her clothes in a video grabbing her crotch in the rain, it would be in the charts. But would that mean it would have more quality? :rolleyes:

I think Kiper is a very focused, talented songwriter and producer. It doesn't matter how much money you make, if you have quality. If she produced a new album for tATu, it would have quality guaranteed. Maybe it wouldn't be as successful because it wouldn't live on scandals, the project would then live on music - fine with me! :done:

Shap didn't get success by being a fabulous producer with the best music taste - it was the PR that brought him success, and THEN the music. Everybody knows that. Check out the other music produced by him (Katya, 7B, etc) - it's average stuff. He's not a great musician. Kiper is a lot better musician than he is, in my opinion.

la aurora 16-03-2004 01:08

staringelf, try to understand. I really like Nichya project. But we were talking about Mansky's words. And he was talking about the future of TATu and their futher commercial success. Success - producer's work. Good music - the work of songwriters. It doesn't matter HOW Ivan did what he did. But the main thing is that he made something that seemed impossible before - he made russian band world famous. Many famous producers tried that before. But it never worked. The day Nichya will reach at least half of fame TATU had will be the day I will call her a great 'producer'. Right now she's just a damn talented songwriter for me. May be she will do something worthy in future. She only began working in this field. And I'll be really glad for her in this case.
As for the sound... there are much better sound producers than Ivan here. But even they agree Ivan is the greatest producer in russian music history

forre 16-03-2004 01:24

sunny poison, Funny things we are discussing here, yes?
1. Interscope took YASSU, remade it to ATTSS and made the group worldwide famous. Their promotion.
2. The concept was Kiper's from the beginning.
3. Ivan developed it and went on with the attitudes and he chose the music. But t.A.T.u. is not only about music (your words).

What else concept can anyone suggest for t.A.T.u.? That was a combination and the link Y&L - Shap - Kiper - Interscope. That's it! The chain is broken. The concept is old. Shapovalov is not enough genious to come up with something else. If he was, he'd have recorded that goddamn second album a year ago.

Unplugged 16-03-2004 01:32

Quote:

The concept is old. Shapovalov is not enough genious to come up with something else. If he was, he'd have recorded that goddamn second album a year ago.
I totally agree with that. If he was "the greatest producer of all time", he would have made a new tATu album and make it as successful way before now. Instead, he just kept himself busy with scandals and other useless crap, letting the group's popularity go down.

coolasfcuk 16-03-2004 01:42

Thanks to all for all the reports :rose:

Quote:

Originally posted by forre
1. Interscope took YASSU, remade it to ATTSS and made the group worldwide. Their promotion.
2. The concept was Kiper's from the beginning.
3. Ivan developed it and went on with the attitudes and he chose the music. But t.A.T.u. is not only about music (your words).
:done:

Of course, by now it should be clear that it was not only Ivan ... and it was not only Kiper.... it was a group effort! Also... it was all just a lucky break in the right time and place :D ... thank god for Fucking Amal and Britney Spears in school girl uniform :laugh: ... so gathering ideas from here and there... little luck.. lotsa hard work... by a whole team... and we got the Great thing t.A.T.u. born and developed.

If it was only Ivan - 'the genius' - well... tatu wouldnt be dying/dead right now... :heh:

Life goes on.. lets see what happens next ... until then... lets keep singing: "all the things she said... all the things she said...." since that the only greatness left... the group effort... all else was cirrcus going downhill :)

forre 16-03-2004 01:47

One more thing only. Everyone is physically alive. So, theoretically, everything is possible. At the moment we don't have any release of the second album. At the moment we have Podnebesnaya projects, Documentary made by Mansky and a bunch of speculations.

Kiper, "You can take the shots and put it in any context, cut where you want to reach the desireable effect." <= Think about it.

la aurora 16-03-2004 01:56

forre, I didn't say Ivan was a geniuos. But he was one of the most luckiest producers for sure. And he was always looking for 'different ways' in producing. Freshness... or at least a wierd combination of re-worked old ideas - this is what made TATU so successful. Ivan just felt the right way. This is something much more professional producers fail to do. They just follow the stream.
1. TATY had to record the first album and cause a real BOOM in russian show-biz to be noticed by Interscope. They made it to East Europe with their russian songs. You can't say it was only Interscope who made them so big. Tho Trevorn Horn is one of the best things that happened to TATU for sure.
2. Although I highly believe Kiper's role in the project was understimated, no need to jump on the opposites. She was as lucky as Ivan. Just one line that came to her head isn't enough to claim she was the one behind the idea. Her idea was a bit different from what TATU finally became (may be hers was better, we'll never know). Besides... well... the fact that Ivan was dating right girls and finding right authors he could screw so easily later only adds to his image of a good producer. To be in the right place and in the right time... yeah?
3. TATU is not only about music. If same song were sang by some other artists and had no gimmick behind, they wouldn't be so popular. Many much better songs were written even in Russia alone. It was the combination of gimmick, Y&L personalities, fine lyrics and nice arragements that made TATU so popular. Take one part away and the thing just wouldn't work. But the music wasn't actually the main thing Ivan did for TATU. He knows few about it actually. The main thing was that he picked right girls, made them look and sound as they do now, thought out the attitudes and story... he also picked the perfect combination of simplicity and deep meaning... simple music harmonies... choruses consisting of 2-3 words... easy to remember even if u are dancing hard along the techno bit. This is all we should give him credit for. Besides, the guy bothered to read a couple of useful books to lean manipulating with minds of the audience.

I wish the guy didn't earn enough money for future living, I wish he didn't get bored with the only real project of his life, I wish he had no money for all those joints coz they changed him in one year. Ivan once had some energy and life in his eyes. Now it's all gone. He looks like a zomby. I don't know if he's like this coz he failed to record 2nd album or he failed to record 2nd album coz he's like this now. Doesn't really matter now. Unfortunately.

Edit: as for his other projects - it was clear from the beginning: the guy is stuck with TATU. He was the perfect producer for THEM only.

freddie 16-03-2004 02:01

Quote:

Originally posted by forre
sunny poison, Funny things we are discussing here, yes?
1. Interscope took YASSU, remade it to ATTSS and made the group worldwide famous. Their promotion.
2. The concept was Kiper's from the beginning.
3. Ivan developed it and went on with the attitudes and he chose the music. But t.A.T.u. is not only about music (your words).

What else concept can anyone suggest for t.A.T.u.? That was a combination and the link Y&L - Shap - Kiper - Interscope. That's it! The chain is broken. The concept is old. Shapovalov is not enough genious to come up with something else. If he was, he'd have recorded that goddamn second album a year ago.

OK, maybe they didn't have a future anymore. Maybe it was an old concept. But what pisses me off what that Ivan didn't even TRY. He might as well perpetuate this old image for another year or two with good music. But he did the worse thing possible... he just let it fade all out into obscurity. New image? Why shouldn't new songs be just enough for starters?? He should at least TRY.

It'll be funny how Universal Music will take all this in... will they just stand by and watch how their investment turns into dust? I mean there must have been some money that was given in advance to the girls (and most to Ivan probably), some money for the actual recording of the album that never happened... I mean... we're probably talking millions here. This will not end well for somebody, I'm sure. :/

nasnedagoniat 16-03-2004 02:03

Quote:

Originally posted by sunny poison
Besides, the guy bothered to read a couple of useful books to lean manipulating with minds of the audience.
[HINT]You don't appreciate what you've got until you don't have it anymore. If you're lucky enough to get it back, you love it more than ever before. - Mass Manipulation Rule #13[/HINT]

*Runs straight out the door and into the street. Gets hit by a passing bus before any sense is made out of what was said.*

forre 16-03-2004 02:04

sunny poison, Ivan & Kiper made t.A.T.u. and t.A.T.u. made Ivan and Kiper producers. Before that the girls were singing kiddies, Ivan is an advert script writer and Kiper a telejournalist. So, the combination brought them a success. Kiper didn't only write the line in ATTSS, she gave the initial idea taken from Fucking Amal. Ivan never said it was his idea and never objected Kiper's statements.

Ivan screwed the team and didn't find a proper replacement. That's his failure.

haku 16-03-2004 02:13

Quote:

Originally posted by freddie
It'll be funny how Universal Music will take all this in... will they just stand by and watch how their investment turns into dust? I mean there must have been some money that was given in advance to the girls (and most to Ivan probably), some money for the actual recording of the album that never happened... I mean... we're probably talking millions here. This will not end well for somebody, I'm sure.
If i remember correctly Universal signed Tatu for 3 albums in English. The matter is probably already in their lawyers hands.

la aurora 16-03-2004 02:19

forre, I'm not trying to argue with you actually. I completely agree that this was the success of the whole team. Just from ur 1,2,3 it seemed u gave Ivan a bit less credits than he deserved. I was him to even think about creating the project and it was him to shoot those videos that made TATU so popular. Kiper could make the whole idea (wich i still doubt. even from her own words, HER TATU vision was a bit different) but without YSSU video TATU would be no ones now.

Quote:

Ivan screw the team and didn't find a proper replacement. That's his failure.
well... it looks like a failure for us... but is it for him? :gigi: He did what he wanted to do. He got loads of money for that and he screwed everything when got bored. He never claimed to be a professional producer. It's wrong to see him this way and expect anything he never planned to give us. The guy just wanted to shoot videos and play with ppl's mind. He did.

And what goes on now is just another project - the breaking up of TATU. It's as intense as their rising was. And we can't even guess what it will end like. As for Ivan - he doesn't seem to care. He just enjoyes the view. Whatever happens is for good as far as they don't froze at one point.

Unplugged 16-03-2004 02:23

Quote:

Kiper didn't only write the line in ATTSS, she gave the initial idea taken from Fucking Amal. Ivan never said it was his idea and never objected Kiper's statements.
Yeah, he didn't say it was his idea, but I think he is very ungrateful to Kiper, making it sound like the only thing she did that was successful for the project was to write the line "Ya Soshla S Uma" - she did WAY more than THAT!

Kiper and Polienko were very special and determinant elements in this project.

forre 16-03-2004 02:42

sunny poison, Not arguing. Of course not. Debating here, as usual.

The problem is - t.A.T.u. is a brand that sells and not Shapovalov. Oh! Both he and Kiper want to stand in the spotlight and receive the awards! Ooooops! It's the artist's job. The producer will always remain in the shadow. Greed and ignorance ruined him. Oh! Maybe he doesn't care. Here we speak about t.A.T.u. and not Shapovalov's future projects. He'll be as successful as Nichya.

Yes, t.A.T.u. showed that Russia "is able" too. Unfortunatelly, it's a one-hit wonder in the West. Nothing more. Next time a Russian artist makes its way to the charts, Western promotors will think twice whether to work with this artist or not. Many companies not only earned money on t.A.T.u. but lost them too. So, it's not about the group at the end, it's about the nation.

Enough politics. We'll follow the girls for a while now and see where we end up. There are a few recorded songs, those will be released for sure. That's good.

la aurora 16-03-2004 02:55

well... Ivan was one of those few producers who managed to put himself in the sportlight... :rolleyes: And it was him who made the brand TATU so well-selling. But it went too far. You are right here... now t.A.T.u costs much more then Ivan and his ideas. TATU is not Ivan anymore. But unfortunately, Ivan is TATU. And he won't be anything else no matter how hard he tries.

As for the effect TATU had on Russian show-biz, well... I don't regret what happened. TATU showed not only western promoters that Russia 'is able', but russian artists too. Now they aren't afraid to try. The situation doesn't look so hopeless anymore. And some producers already said that TATU's success helped them a lot in getting nice contracts. Ivan didn't harm much. It will be enough for other russians to give real garantees and show some will to work to convince western promoters to try one more time. At least now russians can expect some attention.

And yeah, lets wait for new songs and see what happens in the next episode of TATU soap opera. :gigi:

Uf... ok... 5 am... have to get up at 8. Phewww!! Hate it!!
*is off to sleep*

forre 16-03-2004 03:05

Quote:

Originally posted by sunny poison
well... Ivan was one of those few producers who managed to put himself in the sportlight... :rolleyes:

Uf... ok... 5 am... have to get up at 8. Phewww!! Hate it!!
*is off to sleep*

For what? :ill:

Sweet dreams! :rose:

Lena410 16-03-2004 07:00

thanks sunny poison for clearing that up!
I really enjoy your reports. ^^

RowerB 16-03-2004 07:08

Thanks for your report and your views sunny poison.

freddie 16-03-2004 08:22

Quote:

Originally posted by sunny poison


As for the effect TATU had on Russian show-biz, well... I don't regret what happened. TATU showed not only western promoters that Russia 'is able', but russian artists too. Now they aren't afraid to try. The situation doesn't look so hopeless anymore. And some producers already said that TATU's success helped them a lot in getting nice contracts. Ivan didn't harm much. It will be enough for other russians to give real garantees and show some will to work to convince western promoters to try one more time. At least now russians can expect some attention.

Some nice effects really, but frankly also some bad ones as well. What will the westerners think about russia's sense for show business, russian arogance, lack of organizing skills, un-professionalism etc. They ceratainly helped in perpetuating a lot of "eastern" stereotypes... all about how people were SUPPOSED to be behind the former iron curtain. And I'm not happy about that at all :|
On the other hand we can't dismiss all the good things of course. But I can't help but wonder what all this could STILL become if it was jsut managed properly. :/

Lena410 16-03-2004 15:17

freddie, I don't think that they themselves were in any way supporting those stereotypes. They didn't behave differently than some of the western stars do. I'm more appalled at seeing how deeply rooted those stereotypes are.
I don't really think that there was a way in which tatu could have behaved without being bashed. That's the thing that makes me sad. :\

and I agree that they still have a chance if they would be managed properly from now on.

coolasfcuk 16-03-2004 18:23

freds,
Quote:

What will the westerners think about russia's sense for show business, russian arogance, lack of organizing skills, un-professionalism etc. They ceratainly helped in perpetuating a lot of "eastern" stereotypes...
What can I say....the sad part is.... usually those things are true... sad... but yeah. There is a reason why some of those Eastern Countries arent getting in the E.U. quite just yet for example (Russia being one of them) and its because.... the stereoptypes are a bit true :none:
arogance, unprofessionalism, lack of skills (still usually), greediness, LAZINESS ... etc...etc... moving slowly toward the change.. but.... still crawling hihi.

Same with t.A.T.u. ... perfect example how those world collapsed - the east ways didnt go too far when it came to the west

Bottom line is - there are still places where people still function with their old mentality of: being lazy, but wanting everything at the same time ..just like THAT.... without wanting to move too many muscles....:laugh: ask me for examples and ill give you LOTS from my country ;)

Mossopp 16-03-2004 19:30

Why has noone considered the idea of Trevor Horn being tATu's new producer? He did contribute heavily to '200KM/H' and, in case anyone is forgetting, it was Horn who produced the girls most sucessful song to date! The production on the English album is far, far superior to that of the Russian debut.
Of course, I think the chances of Horn taking Shap's place full-time are about a million to one but it just strikes me as odd why none of you have mentioned him. :ithink:

Ruivelle 16-03-2004 19:35

Quote:

Originally posted by nasnedagoniat
[HINT]You don't appreciate what you've got until you don't have it anymore. If you're lucky enough to get it back, you love it more than ever before. - Mass Manipulation Rule #13[/HINT]


... that hint is kinda ...... true .... :none: :eek: :bum: .... anyway , thanks for all the report guys :) .... TATU is still there or not , i'll stick with Yulia and Lena :D :D

Ningyo 17-03-2004 08:12

Quote:

Originally posted by sunny poison
It was the combination of gimmick, Y&L personalities, fine lyrics and nice arragements that made TATU so popular. Take one part away and the thing just wouldn't work.
Amen! On the few times I've expressed my opinion about Tatu (not here, though), it's always been something like this.

Things could be better or they could be worse, but I'd never be the same.


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