thank you guys.

an example: the US isn't the only ones who are fucked up.

the US isn't the only ones who are fucked up. this is ridiculous. in the US people brand arabs, muslims, iraqs and other middle easterners to be terrorists but at least we don't tease their religion. publicly. in the form of a cartoon.
this is a small and probably moot point but the US isn't THAT bad. again, there is alot of tolerance and acceptance here. there is also ignorance and hatred but that is true of every country. this US is no exception but it is not all bad.

How can you even compare a cartoon to real life? I mean, in some cases people who look middle eastern aren't even allowed on planes because of fear of terrorism, even though they are completely innocent. What you just showed is a CARTOON. It's like saying it's unfair that comedians make jokes about celebrities, because celebrities are people too. All in all, many comedians (and cartoon drawers) make fun of anyone and anything.

But US isn't the only messed up country, of course not... I think the whole world could be labeled as fcuked up.

We Europeans love to point with our clean finger on others, at the same time brushing our own excrements under our meanwhile rather smelly carpet. Western Europe is a refuge of egoism, jealousness, chauvinism, spitefulness......

So we cannot see, that behind - better say - above all the "over the top", arrogance, disdain etc. there is a lot of generosity and helpfulness from the US - people and governmental organizations in all parts of the world, and we Europeans have profited from this quality more than anybody else. USA have bad habits and good one's but I doubt that we in Europe would prosper, like we do now, without the protection and friendship of our most reliable partner beyond the Atlantic.

Are we to understand that you support censorship and religious extremism?

Comedians, cartoonists, etc have the absolute right to caricature whoever and whatever they want, that's called freedom of speech and feedom of the press. They can freely caricature politicians, movie stars, singers, and yes, even religious personalities, i've seen caricatures of the pope or the Christian church in general countless times and that's perfectly ok, we are no longer in the Middle Ages when insulting the Church was a capital crime.

Freedom of speech and freedom of the press in Europe will not be limited by religious extremists.

amber,are we to understand that you support censorship of people who critisize media?

I think everybody has the right to say that in the case of the Danish cartoons the media have done something, that people should never do, be it freedom of speech or not, and this mainly for two reasons.

1. It's no fun to hirt peoples religious feelings. It did not hurt religious extremists alone. This shows only bad education and a complete lack of good manners

2. It comes near to hate campaign. Mohammed is a terrorist, so all muslims are terrorists. That speaks for itself.

BTW, if somebody shoots that idiot, I will say only 1:1 - draw!

No, because i did not threaten to kill Lux and her family because she posted an opinion i disagree with, see the difference?

Nice, with that logic we'll soon be back to executing journalists and comedians who criticize politicians.

this is getting off topic. america is not over the top. other countries are the same way. but in their own ways. i have no idea what we're arguing anymore.

There is a difference between making fun of celebrities and a religion. In this case, Islam is a religion that is practiced by one billion people. And it is well known fact that they strongly condems the depications of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH). Of course, it is offensive to depict the Prophet as a terrorist. Clearly, the journalist or cartoonist lacks knowledge if he hold these views.

*already aware of freedom of speech and press*

title: Developed Countries and Their Drawbacks: A Comparison

Oh come on!
It's freaking cartoons! Even if they were tasteless, I'm pretty sure that 1) They were made to inspire debate and 2) They, or some other publication, have made equally tasteless depictions of all four other religions.

That's more than what anyone can say about how Christianity and Judaism are depicted in the Middle East (whores and pigs, fyi), let alone Buddhism and Hinduism (not real religions at all!). Where are the Imams declaring fatwas and boycotts on that, eh?
I would honestly take the Muslims seriously if they weren't so freaking hypocritical.

Why the hell are we supposed to tip-toe around Muslims and Islam? Is any form of debate even allowed to exist in that religion?
We don't do that to any other religion. We scrutinize the shit out of them and eventually offend everybody, especially Christianity. Islam isn't special, not anymore special than any other religion. This has only exposed just how insecure Muslims really are.

Screw that shit, I totally applaud all of the European papers for reprinting those cartoons.

Maybe we should rename the thread to "Contemporary Islam is over the top."

I totally agree on that one PowerPuff Grrl. :D

On that note... it seems funny how most Arab countries would have absolutely no problem seeing a swastika painted over the star of David in a local newspaper. God knows no other country should have religious feelings or should dare get offended over someone mocking their religion. This is simply the mindset extremist Muslims have: other religions don't matter since Islam is the one TRUE religion. 3 words: ignorance, intolerance, hypocrisy.

Again, i totally agree.

All other religions are being mocked daily in Arab newspapers and media in general, and that's fine, that's freedom of expression, but they can certainly not complain that others are doing the same. The practice of other religions is actually most of the time banned or at least extremely oppressed in most Arab countries, so they have no lesson to give to anyone in terms of 'respect' of religions, because the first 'respect' to give to a religion is to actually allow people to practice freely the religion they want.

I would also mention what happened to the giant Buddhas in Afghanistan, just because those statues belonged to another faith, Muslims did not hesitate to simply blow them up and they destroyed a priceless historical monument! They bitch about a cartoon but they think they can blow up historical monuments of another faith? What would we hear if someone destroyed an historical Muslim monument, they would cry bloody murder. :rolleyes:

That being said, religions don't deserve any special status either and should be open to criticism and caricature just like everyone and everything else.

people can riot and ignore whatever they want. they also, can, say anything they want. and they will.

Offtop:
OR how greatly they value their religion.

Offtop:
How interesting. It is unimaginable for Arab media or any media (owned by the muslims) for that matter to mock or depict a negative image of Jesus, Adam, David, Joseph, Isaac and other prophets (P.B.U.T) because they also consider them as Prophets. Muslims MUST have high regards for the Bible and Torah.

Offtop:
You are mentioning the very people who considered themselves "good muslims" yet they went against everything that Islam stands for.

Offtop:
"The Babri Mosque was a mosque constructed by order of the first Mugal emperor of India, Babur, in Ayodhya in the 16th century. It was destroyed in a riot by hostile Hindu extremists on December 6, 1992."

Yeah,that's right.a few years ago I read a book which was about Islam rules.It made me really mad because the rules were against women.In Islam 2women=1man.
I'm muslim, but I personally dont believe in any religion.if I had a chance to choose it I would choose nothing.

How can you be a muslim if you don't believe in it? :spy:

My thought exactly.

I didnt choose it.If your parents are muslim then you are muslim too.

Really?

I thought you were a religion if you believed in it?

Surely you can't be a muslim if you don't believe in the beliefs?!

Hmmm...weird stuff.

Really.and I cant change it.If I was christian or whatever,I could be a muslim but if you are muslim you cant change it(in Iran).

Woah, I didn't know that! :bum:

Eeek! :eek:

One is religious when he/she believe it and practice it.

In your case, xmad, why you bother changing it since you don't believe in any religion anyway.

zelda05,I dont wanna change it.as I said before if I had a chance to choose I would choose nothing.

If you don't practice Islam. Then don't worry, you are not considered a muslim. To be a Muslim, you have to practice it.

worry for what?

Imo you don't have to practice religious rituals to be a member of a certain religion.

The people who value their religion are the same people who aren't representing the true nature of Islam, whatever that is. It is unfortunate that the people who make the biggest impressions from Islam are the people who completely tarnish its image. However, it isn't as unfortunate as that the fact that these people are the only people representing Islam. All moderate voices are kept absolutely shut. Whether they are willingly silenced or not is ambigious. Muslims that have dissented from the Fundamentalist's position are outcasted and are sent death threats; Salman Rushdie, Irshad Manji, that female Cleric who lead prayers in New York, etc. All form of dissent are squashed. It is believed that disagreeing with a fellow Muslim is "haram" (sinful). So Muslims would rather perceive cartoons is painting Islam badly than seeing that crazy fundementalists beheading random Western infidels isn't exactly good for their image either. There are moderates who disagree with this, there are plenty of them in fact, but they don't say shit publically. It took five years after 9/11 for Clerics to establish a Fatwa against terrorists, and those Clerics were in the West.

Nobody is asking Muslims to not get offended by the cartoons, even Westerners were offended. They even started off alright with the boycott and that got them an apology. By the level of violence that was created from all of this, and other stupid events like Miss World, is absurd. This isn't the reaction of people who value their religion. This is the reaction of people who truly believe that beauty pagaents and cartoons can undermine one of the biggest religions in the world... there is no reason or logic behind that, it is simply born out of insecurity.

They can't mock any of them because they are all in the Quran. Technically Islam only recognizes religions that worship the God of Abraham, very limiting. Even so, Muslims still critisize Christians through gross misinterpretations; e.g. They see the phrase "Holy Trinity" and think Christians worship three Gods, thus making Christianity invalid. Furthermore, they believe the Bible has been tampered with (something Christians speculated) and is therefore completely false. Not to mention that in their eyes, both the Bible and the Torah are outdated.
And that's just Judaism and Christianity.
It's unbelieveable what they think of Buddhism and Hinduism.


Though as horrible as that, you cannot say that it was an isolated incidence. This was part of one giant violent clash between Hindus and Muslims ever since Partition. Both Hindus and Muslims have committed equally atrocious acts against one another. That doesn't even compare to how Arab Christians are treated in the Middle East, who (with the exception of the Lebanese) have done nothing to Muslims other than exist, which I guess offends them:
-December 16, 2001, a newly built church was destroyed in Al-Ubor City by the mayor of the city (Mr. Galal Sayed Al-Ahl )and his police forces. They used the same excuse that the church was illegally built, even though the church had the proper permission. The Egyptian government did not investigate the mayor, who was appointed by President Mubarak, for wrong doing.
-February 25, 2001, over 1000 policeman, several Lieutenants and Generals stormed the Church of St. Bola located in Shobra Elkhaima (Qalyubia) with 5 bulldozers. They destroyed the 5-story building and threatened the life of its priest. The order to destroy the church came from the governor of Qalyubia, who is appointed by President Mubarak. The church had all proper construction permission. The Egyptian government did not investigate the governor for wrong doing.
-August 28, 2000, over 500 Moslems attacked and destroyed a small church at the village of Kaser Rashwan, in the city of Tamyah, El Fayoum province. The rioters also destroyed 7 homes owned by Christians and injured 4 Christians with serious injuries in the village. No one was arrested or tried for any crimes.
-July 27, 2000, an Egyptian Christian Copt was shot dead and three others were injured in clashes with their Moslem neighbors over the construction of a church. Fakhri Ayyad Mus'ad, 38, was killed in the gun battle that broke out when Moslem farmers discovered that unlicensed construction work by a Copt in a nearby field was a church. No one was arrested or tried for this crime.
-April 12, 2000, Egyptian police surrounded the Church of "Ezbet Al Akbat" on the outskirts of Cairo, after three Coptic Orthodox priests and over 400 Copts from the village of 'Ezbet El Akbat', opened the doors of the church which was closed for over 10 years for no obvious reason. The standoff ended after three days and the church is still closed.
-February 28, 2000, hours after Pope John Paul II left Mount Sinai, Egypt, heavily armed forces of the Egyptian police stormed the only Coptic Church in Al-Tor city (south of Sinai) and destroyed the altar of the church. After destroying the altar, members of the police confiscated the altar’s sacred vessels as well as consecrated priest and deacons clothing. The police arrested the local Bishop (Bishop Makary) for three hours and accused him of building a church without permission. No investigation of the matter was open by the Egyptian government.
-January 1, 2000, hundreds of Muslims attacked a predominantly Christians village killing 21 Christians and burning a church. No one was arrested, charged or convicted of the murder of the 21 Christians.
-February 13, 1997, gunmen attacked St. George in Abu Qurkas, in El-Minia killing 11 Christian youth during a youth meeting. No one was arrested or tried for any crimes.

And Egypt is a secular nation that allows Christians to worship.

I freaking hate it when religions have this claim over your faith like, "I don't care what you say, you're..."
Catholics also have that, once you're baptised Catholic your Catholic for life. But really if you're born Muslim and you convert to Catholicism, Catholics would recognize you as being Catholic and visa versa. Who the hell cares what the religion you left thinks of you. In the end you are whatever you define yourself as.

PS: Yo, seriously we should take this to another thread if we continue discussing about Islam. Just a suggestion.
freddie: Agreed

I agree about Islam extremists giving the whole religion a bad name. The ironic part is that they're probably not ever TRUE believers. Allah and all Islam stands for is just a neat tool of politics and manipulation for them. I doubt Osama Bin Laden is really religious. I doubt the Taliban scholars were really religious. I doubt Abu Massad Al-Zakawi is religious. But that's just my personal opinon.

But the main cancerous wound that's inflicted on this religion is not extremist themselves (God knows there were for instance enough jewish extemists as well). Like PPG said it's the fact that everyday moderate muslims are so reluctant to actively condemn these all acts of terorism and denounce it once and for all. Terorism would never be so strong in this part of the world if it didn't have mass subtle support of the locals. That's my only resentment towards the Arab people - they're letting a bunch of extremists rape their religion infont of their eyes and they fail to do anything about it.

There's a MASSIVE difference between freedom of speech and media/press and being publicly racist and revoking human rights.

The argument with america isn't the fact that the people there have their reservations about arabs its the fact that they discriminate based on appearance. Its like the south has bled all over america and segregation has come back in as a mainstay. As Queenie said...a cartoon isn't nearly as bad as revoking a persons human rights by giving THEM special treatment when travelling and not others. Cartoons mocking things have existed for a long time - and its known as a form of freedom of press. The muslim world has it, so does the rest of the world. You can't even compare the fact that there was a cartoon with muhammed in it to america and its extended racism.

Its hardly a valid argument.

You missed my point, i was not saying that no Muslim monument was ever destroyed in human history (of course all kinds of monuments from all religions/cultures/civilizations have been destroyed at some point), i was comparing the way people reacted to it.

When the giant Buddhas were destroyed, we didn't see any Buddhist leaders yelling like mad men on TV and calling to the murder of all Muslims around the world to avenge this 'sacrilege', or to take another example, after the bombings in Madrid and London, we didn't see Spanish and British people roaming the streets to burn flags and lynch any Muslim they could meet even though dozens of their compatriots had just been blown up to bloody pieces for no reason by Muslims.

On the other hand, just because of a *drawing*, we're seeing thousands of Muslims running around in the streets, burning flags, attacking Western embassies, looking out for Westerners to lynch, and dozens of Muslim leaders have sentenced Danish people to death… Overreacting much?

Muslims need to learn the meaning of the word 'moderation', the Middle Ages are over for crying out loud, they need to realize that their religion is not worth more than any other, they need to realize that they may actually be wrong since there are so many different beliefs in the world, and they need to realize that freedom of expression always comes first and can't be limited in any way by any religion.

Like a Jordan newspaper said, how come Muslims find it perfectly acceptable to see a Western hostage being decapitated with a knife live on their television, but find it absolutely unacceptable that Western media publishes some caricatures?
What is outrageous is not to see Western media exercising their right to freedom of expression, what is truly outrageous is the deafening silence of the supposedly 'moderate' Muslims leaders who have let an extreme fringe totally take control of their religion and turn it into a violent intolerant fanatical faith.

No this is a point that shows that some don't understand how danish humour works. And yes the topic could have been better chosen, but to Danes nothing is beyond a joke.
Do we make fun with other religions only? no - an example (buttomline: the stylists thoughts before crucifiction (spelled how?))

Trouble with showing the drawing only is that it's taken out of context. If one lives in Denmark then the humour will be understood. If it makes it right I don't know, but bad humour is no reason to burn down buildings..

What do you mean by that? ::confused:

I have a question?If you know muslims and their reactions so why do you make a caricature of Muhammad ? Are you seriously looking for trouble?

1. danes make fun of everything 2. we have a sarcastic humour 3. I doubt the reactions were known in advange..

in one word: no. I have no idea why the drawings were printed in the first place, but trouble wasn't the purpose I'm sure.

Other than that, why o why should the queen stand forward and say she's sorry when she didn't even have anything to do with the drawings in the first place? The newspaper wrote an official note, and that should be it.

Therefore it was a good lessen that not to make fun of everything. ;)

that's not the lesson to be learned no. The lesson to be learned is tolerance, and that goes all the way around. If all share the gift of knowing how to laugh certain things off, then we wouldn't be in this mess