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Lux
01-02-2006, 14:56
thank you guys.

an example: the US isn't the only ones who are fucked up.

the US isn't the only ones who are fucked up. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4669360.stm) this is ridiculous. in the US people brand arabs, muslims, iraqs and other middle easterners to be terrorists but at least we don't tease their religion. publicly. in the form of a cartoon.
this is a small and probably moot point but the US isn't THAT bad. again, there is alot of tolerance and acceptance here. there is also ignorance and hatred but that is true of every country. this US is no exception but it is not all bad.

QueenBee
01-02-2006, 15:12
How can you even compare a cartoon to real life? I mean, in some cases people who look middle eastern aren't even allowed on planes because of fear of terrorism, even though they are completely innocent. What you just showed is a CARTOON. It's like saying it's unfair that comedians make jokes about celebrities, because celebrities are people too. All in all, many comedians (and cartoon drawers) make fun of anyone and anything.

But US isn't the only messed up country, of course not... I think the whole world could be labeled as fcuked up.

Argos
01-02-2006, 15:44
We Europeans love to point with our clean finger on others, at the same time brushing our own excrements under our meanwhile rather smelly carpet. Western Europe is a refuge of egoism, jealousness, chauvinism, spitefulness......

So we cannot see, that behind - better say - above all the "over the top", arrogance, disdain etc. there is a lot of generosity and helpfulness from the US - people and governmental organizations in all parts of the world, and we Europeans have profited from this quality more than anybody else. USA have bad habits and good one's but I doubt that we in Europe would prosper, like we do now, without the protection and friendship of our most reliable partner beyond the Atlantic.

haku
01-02-2006, 16:35
the US isn't the only ones who are fucked up. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4669360.stm) this is ridiculous. in the US people brand arabs, muslims, iraqs and other middle easterners to be terrorists but at least we don't tease their religion. publicly. in the form of a cartoon.
Are we to understand that you support censorship and religious extremism?

Comedians, cartoonists, etc have the absolute right to caricature whoever and whatever they want, that's called freedom of speech and feedom of the press. They can freely caricature politicians, movie stars, singers, and yes, even religious personalities, i've seen caricatures of the pope or the Christian church in general countless times and that's perfectly ok, we are no longer in the Middle Ages when insulting the Church was a capital crime.

Freedom of speech and freedom of the press in Europe will not be limited by religious extremists.

Argos
01-02-2006, 19:20
amber,are we to understand that you support censorship of people who critisize media?

I think everybody has the right to say that in the case of the Danish cartoons the media have done something, that people should never do, be it freedom of speech or not, and this mainly for two reasons.

1. It's no fun to hirt peoples religious feelings. It did not hurt religious extremists alone. This shows only bad education and a complete lack of good manners

2. It comes near to hate campaign. Mohammed is a terrorist, so all muslims are terrorists. That speaks for itself.

BTW, if somebody shoots that idiot, I will say only 1:1 - draw!

haku
01-02-2006, 20:55
amber,are we to understand that you support censorship of people who critisize media?No, because i did not threaten to kill Lux and her family because she posted an opinion i disagree with, see the difference?

if somebody shoots that idiot, I will say only 1:1 - draw!Nice, with that logic we'll soon be back to executing journalists and comedians who criticize politicians.

Lux
02-02-2006, 01:52
this is getting off topic. america is not over the top. other countries are the same way. but in their own ways. i have no idea what we're arguing anymore.

Rachel
02-02-2006, 07:49
this is getting off topic. I'll chance the thread title then if it's too off-topic for your liking ;)Just say the word ;)

zelda05
02-02-2006, 11:04
It's like saying it's unfair that comedians make jokes about celebrities, because celebrities are people too.
There is a difference between making fun of celebrities and a religion. In this case, Islam is a religion that is practiced by one billion people. And it is well known fact that they strongly condems the depications of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH). Of course, it is offensive to depict the Prophet as a terrorist. Clearly, the journalist or cartoonist lacks knowledge if he hold these views.

*already aware of freedom of speech and press*

Lux
02-02-2006, 11:40
title: Developed Countries and Their Drawbacks: A Comparison

Rachel
02-02-2006, 11:50
Ermmmm...whaaaaaat?!

PowerPuff Grrl
02-02-2006, 17:06
Oh come on!
It's freaking cartoons! Even if they were tasteless, I'm pretty sure that 1) They were made to inspire debate and 2) They, or some other publication, have made equally tasteless depictions of all four other religions.

That's more than what anyone can say about how Christianity and Judaism are depicted in the Middle East (whores and pigs, fyi), let alone Buddhism and Hinduism (not real religions at all!). Where are the Imams declaring fatwas and boycotts on that, eh?
I would honestly take the Muslims seriously if they weren't so freaking hypocritical.

Why the hell are we supposed to tip-toe around Muslims and Islam? Is any form of debate even allowed to exist in that religion?
We don't do that to any other religion. We scrutinize the shit out of them and eventually offend everybody, especially Christianity. Islam isn't special, not anymore special than any other religion. This has only exposed just how insecure Muslims really are.

Screw that shit, I totally applaud all of the European papers for reprinting those cartoons.

Maybe we should rename the thread to "Contemporary Islam is over the top."

haku
02-02-2006, 17:28
I totally agree on that one PowerPuff Grrl. :D

freddie
02-02-2006, 19:08
On that note... it seems funny how most Arab countries would have absolutely no problem seeing a swastika painted over the star of David in a local newspaper. God knows no other country should have religious feelings or should dare get offended over someone mocking their religion. This is simply the mindset extremist Muslims have: other religions don't matter since Islam is the one TRUE religion. 3 words: ignorance, intolerance, hypocrisy.

haku
02-02-2006, 19:33
On that note... it seems funny how most Arab countries would have absolutely no problem seeing a swastika painted over the star of David in a local newspaper. God knows no other country should have religious feelings or should dare get offended over someone mocking their religion. This is simply the mindset extremist Muslims have: other religions don't matter since Islam is the one TRUE religion. 3 words: ignorance, intolerance, hypocrisy.
Again, i totally agree.

All other religions are being mocked daily in Arab newspapers and media in general, and that's fine, that's freedom of expression, but they can certainly not complain that others are doing the same. The practice of other religions is actually most of the time banned or at least extremely oppressed in most Arab countries, so they have no lesson to give to anyone in terms of 'respect' of religions, because the first 'respect' to give to a religion is to actually allow people to practice freely the religion they want.

I would also mention what happened to the giant Buddhas in Afghanistan, just because those statues belonged to another faith, Muslims did not hesitate to simply blow them up and they destroyed a priceless historical monument! They bitch about a cartoon but they think they can blow up historical monuments of another faith? What would we hear if someone destroyed an historical Muslim monument, they would cry bloody murder. :rolleyes:

That being said, religions don't deserve any special status either and should be open to criticism and caricature just like everyone and everything else.

Lux
03-02-2006, 01:09
people can riot and ignore whatever they want. they also, can, say anything they want. and they will.

zelda05
04-02-2006, 10:18
This has only exposed just how insecure Muslims really are
OR how greatly they value their religion.

All other religions are being mocked daily in Arab newspapers and media in general, and that's fine, that's freedom of expression
How interesting. It is unimaginable for Arab media or any media (owned by the muslims) for that matter to mock or depict a negative image of Jesus, Adam, David, Joseph, Isaac and other prophets (P.B.U.T) because they also consider them as Prophets. Muslims MUST have high regards for the Bible and Torah.

I would also mention what happened to the giant Buddhas in Afghanistan, just because those statues belonged to another faith, Muslims did not hesitate to simply blow them up and they destroyed a priceless historical monument!
You are mentioning the very people who considered themselves "good muslims" yet they went against everything that Islam stands for.

What would we hear if someone destroyed an historical Muslim monument, they would cry bloody murder. :rolleyes:
"The Babri Mosque was a mosque constructed by order of the first Mugal emperor of India, Babur, in Ayodhya in the 16th century. It was destroyed in a riot by hostile Hindu extremists on December 6, 1992."

xmad
04-02-2006, 10:50
Islam is the one TRUE religion. 3 words: ignorance, intolerance, hypocrisy.
Yeah,that's right.a few years ago I read a book which was about Islam rules.It made me really mad because the rules were against women.In Islam 2women=1man.
I'm muslim, but I personally dont believe in any religion.if I had a chance to choose it I would choose nothing.

Rachel
04-02-2006, 10:52
I'm muslim, but I personally dont believe in any religion.How can you be a muslim if you don't believe in it? :spy:

zelda05
04-02-2006, 10:55
My thought exactly.

xmad
04-02-2006, 10:56
How can you be a muslim if you don't believe in it?
I didnt choose it.If your parents are muslim then you are muslim too.

Rachel
04-02-2006, 11:12
Really?

I thought you were a religion if you believed in it?

Surely you can't be a muslim if you don't believe in the beliefs?!

Hmmm...weird stuff.

xmad
04-02-2006, 11:20
Really?
Really.and I cant change it.If I was christian or whatever,I could be a muslim but if you are muslim you cant change it(in Iran).

Rachel
04-02-2006, 11:21
Woah, I didn't know that! :bum:

Eeek! :eek:

zelda05
04-02-2006, 11:24
One is religious when he/she believe it and practice it.

In your case, xmad, why you bother changing it since you don't believe in any religion anyway.

xmad
04-02-2006, 11:30
zelda05,I dont wanna change it.as I said before if I had a chance to choose I would choose nothing.

zelda05
04-02-2006, 11:35
If you don't practice Islam. Then don't worry, you are not considered a muslim. To be a Muslim, you have to practice it.

xmad
04-02-2006, 11:43
worry for what?

zelda05
04-02-2006, 12:01
it was figure of speech.

freddie
04-02-2006, 13:54
If you don't practice Islam. Then don't worry, you are not considered a muslim. To be a Muslim, you have to practice it.

Imo you don't have to practice religious rituals to be a member of a certain religion.

PowerPuff Grrl
04-02-2006, 15:13
OR how greatly they value their religion.

You are mentioning the very people who considered themselves "good muslims" yet they went against everything that Islam stands for.

The people who value their religion are the same people who aren't representing the true nature of Islam, whatever that is. It is unfortunate that the people who make the biggest impressions from Islam are the people who completely tarnish its image. However, it isn't as unfortunate as that the fact that these people are the only people representing Islam. All moderate voices are kept absolutely shut. Whether they are willingly silenced or not is ambigious. Muslims that have dissented from the Fundamentalist's position are outcasted and are sent death threats; Salman Rushdie, Irshad Manji, that female Cleric who lead prayers in New York, etc. All form of dissent are squashed. It is believed that disagreeing with a fellow Muslim is "haram" (sinful). So Muslims would rather perceive cartoons is painting Islam badly than seeing that crazy fundementalists beheading random Western infidels isn't exactly good for their image either. There are moderates who disagree with this, there are plenty of them in fact, but they don't say shit publically. It took five years after 9/11 for Clerics to establish a Fatwa against terrorists, and those Clerics were in the West.

Nobody is asking Muslims to not get offended by the cartoons, even Westerners were offended. They even started off alright with the boycott and that got them an apology. By the level of violence that was created from all of this, and other stupid events like Miss World, is absurd. This isn't the reaction of people who value their religion. This is the reaction of people who truly believe that beauty pagaents and cartoons can undermine one of the biggest religions in the world... there is no reason or logic behind that, it is simply born out of insecurity.

How interesting. It is unimaginable for Arab media or any media (owned by the muslims) for that matter to mock or depict a negative image of Jesus, Adam, David, Joseph, Isaac and other prophets (P.B.U.T) because they also consider them as Prophets. Muslims MUST have high regards for the Bible and Torah.
They can't mock any of them because they are all in the Quran. Technically Islam only recognizes religions that worship the God of Abraham, very limiting. Even so, Muslims still critisize Christians through gross misinterpretations; e.g. They see the phrase "Holy Trinity" and think Christians worship three Gods, thus making Christianity invalid. Furthermore, they believe the Bible has been tampered with (something Christians speculated) and is therefore completely false. Not to mention that in their eyes, both the Bible and the Torah are outdated.
And that's just Judaism and Christianity.
It's unbelieveable what they think of Buddhism and Hinduism.


"The Babri Mosque was a mosque constructed by order of the first Mugal emperor of India, Babur, in Ayodhya in the 16th century. It was destroyed in a riot by hostile Hindu extremists on December 6, 1992."
Though as horrible as that, you cannot say that it was an isolated incidence. This was part of one giant violent clash between Hindus and Muslims ever since Partition. Both Hindus and Muslims have committed equally atrocious acts against one another. That doesn't even compare to how Arab Christians are treated in the Middle East, who (with the exception of the Lebanese) have done nothing to Muslims other than exist, which I guess offends them:
-December 16, 2001, a newly built church was destroyed in Al-Ubor City by the mayor of the city (Mr. Galal Sayed Al-Ahl )and his police forces. They used the same excuse that the church was illegally built, even though the church had the proper permission. The Egyptian government did not investigate the mayor, who was appointed by President Mubarak, for wrong doing.
-February 25, 2001, over 1000 policeman, several Lieutenants and Generals stormed the Church of St. Bola located in Shobra Elkhaima (Qalyubia) with 5 bulldozers. They destroyed the 5-story building and threatened the life of its priest. The order to destroy the church came from the governor of Qalyubia, who is appointed by President Mubarak. The church had all proper construction permission. The Egyptian government did not investigate the governor for wrong doing.
-August 28, 2000, over 500 Moslems attacked and destroyed a small church at the village of Kaser Rashwan, in the city of Tamyah, El Fayoum province. The rioters also destroyed 7 homes owned by Christians and injured 4 Christians with serious injuries in the village. No one was arrested or tried for any crimes.
-July 27, 2000, an Egyptian Christian Copt was shot dead and three others were injured in clashes with their Moslem neighbors over the construction of a church. Fakhri Ayyad Mus'ad, 38, was killed in the gun battle that broke out when Moslem farmers discovered that unlicensed construction work by a Copt in a nearby field was a church. No one was arrested or tried for this crime.
-April 12, 2000, Egyptian police surrounded the Church of "Ezbet Al Akbat" on the outskirts of Cairo, after three Coptic Orthodox priests and over 400 Copts from the village of 'Ezbet El Akbat', opened the doors of the church which was closed for over 10 years for no obvious reason. The standoff ended after three days and the church is still closed.
-February 28, 2000, hours after Pope John Paul II left Mount Sinai, Egypt, heavily armed forces of the Egyptian police stormed the only Coptic Church in Al-Tor city (south of Sinai) and destroyed the altar of the church. After destroying the altar, members of the police confiscated the altar’s sacred vessels as well as consecrated priest and deacons clothing. The police arrested the local Bishop (Bishop Makary) for three hours and accused him of building a church without permission. No investigation of the matter was open by the Egyptian government.
-January 1, 2000, hundreds of Muslims attacked a predominantly Christians village killing 21 Christians and burning a church. No one was arrested, charged or convicted of the murder of the 21 Christians.
-February 13, 1997, gunmen attacked St. George in Abu Qurkas, in El-Minia killing 11 Christian youth during a youth meeting. No one was arrested or tried for any crimes.

And Egypt is a secular nation that allows Christians to worship.

Really.and I cant change it.If I was christian or whatever,I could be a muslim but if you are muslim you cant change it(in Iran).
I freaking hate it when religions have this claim over your faith like, "I don't care what you say, you're..."
Catholics also have that, once you're baptised Catholic your Catholic for life. But really if you're born Muslim and you convert to Catholicism, Catholics would recognize you as being Catholic and visa versa. Who the hell cares what the religion you left thinks of you. In the end you are whatever you define yourself as.

PS: Yo, seriously we should take this to another thread if we continue discussing about Islam. Just a suggestion.
Agreed

QueenBee
04-02-2006, 15:56
How interesting. It is unimaginable for Arab media or any media (owned by the muslims) for that matter to mock or depict a negative image of Jesus, Adam, David, Joseph, Isaac and other prophets (P.B.U.T) because they also consider them as Prophets. Muslims MUST have high regards for the Bible and Torah.
Newspapers that joke about religion have joked about Jesus for a while now, and the muslims never reacted to that. Only when it came to Mohammed. Which shows that they otherwise don't give a shit (even though in theory they should).

freddie
04-02-2006, 18:08
I agree about Islam extremists giving the whole religion a bad name. The ironic part is that they're probably not ever TRUE believers. Allah and all Islam stands for is just a neat tool of politics and manipulation for them. I doubt Osama Bin Laden is really religious. I doubt the Taliban scholars were really religious. I doubt Abu Massad Al-Zakawi is religious. But that's just my personal opinon.

But the main cancerous wound that's inflicted on this religion is not extremist themselves (God knows there were for instance enough jewish extemists as well). Like PPG said it's the fact that everyday moderate muslims are so reluctant to actively condemn these all acts of terorism and denounce it once and for all. Terorism would never be so strong in this part of the world if it didn't have mass subtle support of the locals. That's my only resentment towards the Arab people - they're letting a bunch of extremists rape their religion infont of their eyes and they fail to do anything about it.

kishkash
04-02-2006, 20:26
thank you guys.

an example: the US isn't the only ones who are fucked up.

the US isn't the only ones who are fucked up. this is ridiculous. in the US people brand arabs, muslims, iraqs and other middle easterners to be terrorists but at least we don't tease their religion. publicly. in the form of a cartoon.
this is a small and probably moot point but the US isn't THAT bad. again, there is alot of tolerance and acceptance here. there is also ignorance and hatred but that is true of every country. this US is no exception but it is not all bad.

There's a MASSIVE difference between freedom of speech and media/press and being publicly racist and revoking human rights.

The argument with america isn't the fact that the people there have their reservations about arabs its the fact that they discriminate based on appearance. Its like the south has bled all over america and segregation has come back in as a mainstay. As Queenie said...a cartoon isn't nearly as bad as revoking a persons human rights by giving THEM special treatment when travelling and not others. Cartoons mocking things have existed for a long time - and its known as a form of freedom of press. The muslim world has it, so does the rest of the world. You can't even compare the fact that there was a cartoon with muhammed in it to america and its extended racism.

Its hardly a valid argument.

haku
04-02-2006, 21:30
The Babri Mosque was a mosque constructed by order of the first Mugal emperor of India, Babur, in Ayodhya in the 16th century. It was destroyed in a riot by hostile Hindu extremists on December 6, 1992.
You missed my point, i was not saying that no Muslim monument was ever destroyed in human history (of course all kinds of monuments from all religions/cultures/civilizations have been destroyed at some point), i was comparing the way people reacted to it.

When the giant Buddhas were destroyed, we didn't see any Buddhist leaders yelling like mad men on TV and calling to the murder of all Muslims around the world to avenge this 'sacrilege', or to take another example, after the bombings in Madrid and London, we didn't see Spanish and British people roaming the streets to burn flags and lynch any Muslim they could meet even though dozens of their compatriots had just been blown up to bloody pieces for no reason by Muslims.

On the other hand, just because of a *drawing*, we're seeing thousands of Muslims running around in the streets, burning flags, attacking Western embassies, looking out for Westerners to lynch, and dozens of Muslim leaders have sentenced Danish people to death… Overreacting much?

Muslims need to learn the meaning of the word 'moderation', the Middle Ages are over for crying out loud, they need to realize that their religion is not worth more than any other, they need to realize that they may actually be wrong since there are so many different beliefs in the world, and they need to realize that freedom of expression always comes first and can't be limited in any way by any religion.

Like a Jordan newspaper said, how come Muslims find it perfectly acceptable to see a Western hostage being decapitated with a knife live on their television, but find it absolutely unacceptable that Western media publishes some caricatures?
What is outrageous is not to see Western media exercising their right to freedom of expression, what is truly outrageous is the deafening silence of the supposedly 'moderate' Muslims leaders who have let an extreme fringe totally take control of their religion and turn it into a violent intolerant fanatical faith.

teeny
05-02-2006, 11:00
this is a small and probably moot point but the US isn't THAT bad. again, there is alot of tolerance and acceptance hereNo this is a point that shows that some don't understand how danish humour works. And yes the topic could have been better chosen, but to Danes nothing is beyond a joke.
Do we make fun with other religions only? no - an example (http://home20.inet.tele.dk/blyat1/files/5528.gif) (buttomline: the stylists thoughts before crucifiction (spelled how?))

Trouble with showing the drawing only is that it's taken out of context. If one lives in Denmark then the humour will be understood. If it makes it right I don't know, but bad humour is no reason to burn down buildings..

xmad
05-02-2006, 11:51
"I don't care what you say, you're..."
What do you mean by that? ::confused:

I have a question?If you know muslims and their reactions so why do you make a caricature of Muhammad ? Are you seriously looking for trouble?

teeny
05-02-2006, 13:35
If you know muslims and their reactions so why do you make a caricature of Muhammad ?1. danes make fun of everything 2. we have a sarcastic humour 3. I doubt the reactions were known in advange..

Are you seriously looking for trouble?in one word: no. I have no idea why the drawings were printed in the first place, but trouble wasn't the purpose I'm sure.

Other than that, why o why should the queen stand forward and say she's sorry when she didn't even have anything to do with the drawings in the first place? The newspaper wrote an official note, and that should be it.

xmad
05-02-2006, 13:39
danes make fun of everything
Therefore it was a good lessen that not to make fun of everything. ;)

teeny
05-02-2006, 13:47
Therefore it was a good lessen that not to make fun of everythingthat's not the lesson to be learned no. The lesson to be learned is tolerance, and that goes all the way around. If all share the gift of knowing how to laugh certain things off, then we wouldn't be in this mess

Argos
05-02-2006, 13:53
Muslims need to learn the meaning of the word 'moderation', the Middle Ages are over ... there are so many different beliefs in the world, and they need to realize that freedom of expression always comes first and can't be limited in any way by any religion ... how come Muslims find it perfectly acceptable to see a Western hostage being decapitated with a knife live on their television, but find it absolutely unacceptable that Western media publishes some caricatures?...


Totally agreed on that, but we have to remember that since the Middle Ages we had Humanism, Reformation, Enlightenment, the French Revolution, Socialism, Female Rights and the establishment of democracy in almost all European countries, for the latter one a few countries needed more than one try. I am no expert in islamic culture, but I don't think that they have experiences with comparable impact on society. Our society has many pillars, religion being only one of them, in wide parts of the islamic world from northern Africa to the Middle East there seems to be only dictatorship and religion as fundaments of society, religion being the only source of at least some form of stability, security, welfare and justice. That should explain sufficiently, why muslims react so oversensitive to attacks on religion. To understand them we have to learn to think a little bit more in their way and not only in our's.

xmad
05-02-2006, 14:16
that's not the lesson to be learned no. The lesson to be learned is tolerance, and that goes all the way around. If all share the gift of knowing how to laugh certain things off, then we wouldn't be in this mess
I dont agree with that.Making laugh about everything isnt good at all and as you see some people cant take it.
Dont get me wrong I'm not saying that muslims reaction was right.that reaction is such a big shame.
But Im sure everyone more or less knew how extremist muslims would react about that caricature.I just dont know what was the logic behind drawing that caricature.

freddie
05-02-2006, 14:23
What do you mean by that? ::confused:

I have a question?If you know muslims and their reactions so why do you make a caricature of Muhammad ? Are you seriously looking for trouble?

That almost sounded like a threat... "...don't mess with the uber-sensitive muslims if you know what's good for you, cause they'll definitely fuck you up..."

Seriously, when did Islam get this holy right to be more sensitive than other religions about such trivial things? And why should European tradition of provocative caricature that's been going on for more than 300 years and with it the freedom of speach bow down to a bunch of religious fanatics? There's much more at stake here than just the right to publish a bunch of silly caricatures in a newspaper most Arabs haven't even heard of. It's about the right of expression. The right to an opinion without being persecuted or threatened for it. This reaction is probably the way Catolic Church would respond in the 15th century. The middle east has to wake the fuck up. The Islam would itself, has to wake the fuck up. These are not the middle ages. This is the 21st century. Adapt! We're all sharing the same planet.

teeny
05-02-2006, 14:29
logic has little to do with the whole situation. My thought in the matter is that the drawings have little to do with the situation. Or at least that the whole thing about asking for an apoligy is one big illussion. There is no way saying "sorry" is going to clear up what have now started. Someone are adding fuel to the fire and refuse to stop doing so. Why bring the drawings to extreme groups in the first place? They were printed in Denmark - let them stay there and react in Denmark instead. There would have been posted an apoligy months ago if some felt they needed one. Instead it was brought to other countries and no further explanation was provided it seems (interview with one of the messengers yesterday in danish tv). He said the drawings speaks on their own. And no they certainly do not.
Rumours started about burning of the Coran in demonstations - and no they did not burn flags or anything. In fact people got arrested BEFORE real troubles started. Like things should go. And riots start because of the rumours..

zelda05
05-02-2006, 14:48
However, it isn't as unfortunate as that the fact that these people are the only people representing Islam.
It would be sad if anyone actually believes that the terrorists (idiots) are representing Islam when in fact, they are tarnishing it.

It took five years after 9/11 for Clerics to establish a Fatwa against terrorists, and those Clerics were in the West.
That is probably one thing that I may never understand. They should have denounced terrorists the very day (9/11) they killed thousands of innocent civilians.

Even so, Muslims still critisize Christians through gross misinterpretations; e.g. They see the phrase "Holy Trinity" and think Christians worship three Gods, thus making Christianity invalid.
I don't know how the Muslims perceive the phrase "Holy Trinity". But I do know that they believe Jesus (PBUH) is a Prophet. Therefore, they disagree with the Christians who believe otherwise.

Not to mention that in their eyes, both the Bible and the Torah are outdated.
It would be ignorant on their part to hold such view.

I agree about Islam extremists giving the whole religion a bad name. The ironic part is that they're probably not ever TRUE believers. Allah and all Islam stands for is just a neat tool of politics and manipulation for them. I doubt Osama Bin Laden is really religious. I doubt the Taliban scholars were really religious. I doubt Abu Massad Al-Zakawi is religious. But that's just my personal opinon.
I agree with everything you have mentioned including your personal opinion. :D

On the other hand, just because of a *drawing*, we're seeing thousands of Muslims running around in the streets, burning flags, attacking Western embassies, looking out for Westerners to lynch, and dozens of Muslim leaders have sentenced Danish people to death… Overreacting much?
The way these muslims are protesting is just plain horrible! :bum:
someone should remind them of the words: peaceful demonstration.

teeny
05-02-2006, 14:57
on a slightly different note: does anyone know why Norwegian flags and buildings are being burnt aswell? :spy: Is it because the flags are similar? :ithink:

Rachel
05-02-2006, 15:02
I presume they're ruining anything they associate with the so called evil west...but I'm probably wrong.

zelda05
05-02-2006, 15:04
Rachel, I think you are right.

Rachel
05-02-2006, 15:22
I think they need to realise doing this (http://img156.imageshack.us/my.php?image=567436734xv.jpg) is not the smart thing to do, the more they do this, the more sympathy they are going to lose. They need to realise they are not more important than anyone else in the world.

I could respect them if they were having peaceful demonstrations, but what they are doing is STUPID! They are turning into their own worst enemies.

I'm starting to think for every building they burn of everyone elses, we should burn one of theirs! See how they feel!!! :bebebe: But of course that isn't smart...and more destruction certainly isn't gonna help things :none:

zelda05
05-02-2006, 15:31
I could respect them if they were having peaceful demonstrations, but what they are doing is STUPID! They are turning into their own worst enemies.
Apparently, the term "Peaceful demonstrations" doesn't exists in their dictionary. I don't think stupid is even the word to describe what they are doing. Bunch of ignorants!

freddie
05-02-2006, 15:41
on a slightly different note: does anyone know why Norwegian flags and buildings are being burnt aswell? :spy: Is it because the flags are similar? :ithink:

Probably a Scandinavian thing? :p

xmad
05-02-2006, 15:41
I don't think stupid is even the word to describe what they are doing. Bunch of ignorants!
ignorant people do STUPID THINGS but wise people do BIG MISTAKES.
Which one is more dangerous?

freddie
05-02-2006, 15:50
ignorant people do STUPID THINGS but wise people do BIG MISTAKES.
Which one is more dangerous?

And sometimes it's wise power-hungry people who know how to work the crowd and manipulate public opinion by evoking people's religious feelings. Which is what happened here, imo.

QueenBee
05-02-2006, 16:02
The majority of the people in the very religious arab countries have been massmanipulated since forever. An opinion isn't a valid opinion unless it's "I love god".

Thankfully that is wearing off now and more and more people are highly educated and don't mind expressing their own opinion.

xmad
05-02-2006, 16:04
And sometimes it's wise power-hungry people who know how to work the crowd and manipulate public opinion by evoking people's religious feelings
Yes,that's right.
Which is what happened here, imo.
And that's why I said"what's the logic behind this" who is playing with who?and why?

QueenBee
05-02-2006, 16:04
teeny, apparently Norway and Finland (?) are being attacked too, maybe because they're part of Scandinavia or something. Are they neutral when it comes to USA? I mean, are they with them or against them? I know that we (Sweden) are neutral and that could be a reason to why no-one gives a crap about us. It's just a matter of time, though.

Rachel
05-02-2006, 16:05
Thankfully that is wearing off now and more and more people are highly educated and don't mind expressing their own opinion.I don't see anything changing right now. :none:

QueenBee
05-02-2006, 16:06
Rachel, not in general, but many people from these countries have been interview by Swedish TV (and aired here, obviously) and they go against their countries. Strangely enough there were many women who said this, which really surprised me as they are usually not ... you know, worth that much. Now they're getting educations and trying to change their countries (HAHAHAHA good luck).

Rachel
05-02-2006, 16:07
(HAHAHAHA good luck).Indeed...they're gonna need it!

PowerPuff Grrl
05-02-2006, 16:18
I have a question?If you know muslims and their reactions so why do you make a caricature of Muhammad ? Are you seriously looking for trouble?
So let me get this straight, Muslims are allowed to get away with degrading Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and Buddhism because they know that believers of these religions won't get that upset?


on a slightly different note: does anyone know why Norwegian flags and buildings are being burnt aswell? Is it because the flags are similar?
Norway was the second country that had papers reprint the cartoons, as well they shared their embassy with Denamark. Chile also had their embassy in the same building, now that has got to suck.

Lesson learned; don't share shit with Denmark.
:D

Rachel
05-02-2006, 16:25
So let me get this straight, Muslims are allowed to get away with degrading Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and Buddhism because they know that believers of these religions won't get that upset?Well, like I said, it seems these people protesting seem to think they are more important people than anyone else, and that anyone who isn't Muslim is trash.

Of course these people were totally brainwashed since birth to think this way, and then they pass this mentality onto their kids, who pass it onto their kids... :rolleyes:

teeny
05-02-2006, 16:36
Lesson learned; don't share shit with Denmark.:laugh: And we don't want to share things to begin with anyway..

marina
05-02-2006, 17:08
And we don't want to share things

have you ever considered the Word of our saviour the Lord: Jesus Christ? :D

teeny
05-02-2006, 17:14
have you ever considered the Word of our saviour the Lord: Jesus Christ?I remember the term "forgive them for they know not what they do" or something in that direction.. :p

marina
05-02-2006, 17:16
I been thinking about the other thing but it's even better ! :done:

freddie
05-02-2006, 18:27
And that's why I said"what's the logic behind this" who is playing with who?and why?

Islamic extremists. Why? Power. In the eternal words of Bruce Springsteen: "Poor men wanna be rich, rich men wanna be kings, and a king ain’t satisfied till he rules everything."

This (http://balkansnet.org/strelnikoff.jpg) was an album cover a Slovene band put out back in 1997. Slovene priests were outraged. They claimed the cover insulted catolic christians. They wanted to ban it through legal means. They failed. They gave up. No machine-guns were fired. No houses were burned. Think about it ...

haku
05-02-2006, 18:28
I think they need to realise doing this (http://img156.imageshack.us/my.php?image=567436734xv.jpg) is not the smart thing to doAll they are doing is showing the world that they are indeed acting like the caricatures they are protesting against, which is of course the most stupid thing they could do.


Anyway, i wonder if any of those people has ever seen South Park for example, here's a show that has made fun of absolutely everything and everyone in 9 years, and not in a gentle way. :laugh:
Right in the last episode 'Bloody Mary', it's the Christian church that is the target, some priests discover that their statue of the Virgin Mary is bleeding out of her ass (http://norambre.free.fr/tatysite/southpark1.png) and think it's a miracle, thousands of Christians travel to see the miracle and be healed by the blood of the Virgin Mary, the Pope himself (http://norambre.free.fr/tatysite/southpark2.png) comes to see the holly manifestation, he takes a close look (http://norambre.free.fr/tatysite/southpark3.png), and gets an eyeful of the miracle (http://norambre.free.fr/tatysite/southpark4.png), but after examining the statue closely, the Pope declared to the shocked worshippers that it was actually not a miracle because the blood was coming out of her vagina and not her ass and i quote (http://norambre.free.fr/tatysite/southpark5.png)… :lol:

This episode of South Park caused no riots, Comedy Central buildings were not burned down, and the authors of South Park were not threatened to be killed. :rolleyes:

haku
06-02-2006, 00:55
More Muslims making fools of themselves in a protest in London (http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/story_pages/news/news3.shtml) yesterday. :rolleyes:

Rachel
06-02-2006, 00:57
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/images/homepage/n3_03.jpg

The answer?! :rolleyes: Yeah, riiiiiight, we wanna be fun little supressed people who have to cover our full bodies in ugly cloth and spend 90% of the day praying. Sounds like fun to me! :rolleyes:

Linda16
06-02-2006, 02:18
It's a "clash of civilizations" (Huntington). The Western world and the Islamic world are speaking totally different languages. And it seems that the dialogue and the understanding of each other becomes less and less possible. I really don't know where it all will lead. It's a shame, beause actually the Danes were fighting against the politically correct hypocricy. Now they are victims themselves...

xmad
06-02-2006, 08:21
Islamic extremists. Why? Power. In the eternal words of Bruce Springsteen: "Poor men wanna be rich, rich men wanna be kings, and a king ain’t satisfied till he rules everything."
Islamic extremists??I dont think so.look at the situation from different aspects.this situation isnt benefitial for Islamic extremists.

freddie
06-02-2006, 12:08
It's a "clash of civilizations" (Huntington). The Western world and the Islamic world are speaking totally different languages.

I actually don't think these two langauges are seperate. Europe spoke the same langauge of intolerance, extremism and religious bigotry 500 years ago. It's called evolution and adapting to modern environment. Something a few people still fail to grasp.

Islamic extremists??I dont think so.look at the situation from different aspects.this situation isnt benefitial for Islamic extremists.

How do you figure?

haku
06-02-2006, 18:03
One of the very few occasions where i actually agree with The Sun (http://images.thesun.co.uk/picture/0,,2006060061,00.jpg). :D

Rachel
06-02-2006, 18:04
Arghhhh I hate how the police are totally ignoring this shit! :nunu: :nunu: :nunu:

QueenBee
06-02-2006, 19:05
LOL that comic made me laugh out loud because it reflects the situation of the whole world so wonderfully.

Lesson learned: The world sucks!

PS. I think my signature fits in here very nicely. :p

teeny
06-02-2006, 21:01
PS. I think my signature fits in here very nicely.and what a lovely quote it is.. makes one put on Se7en right away :yes:

fanoff
06-02-2006, 22:05
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/images/homepage/n3_03.jpg

The answer?! :rolleyes: Yeah, riiiiiight, we wanna be fun little supressed people who have to cover our full bodies in ugly cloth and spend 90% of the day praying. Sounds like fun to me! :rolleyes:
you better not talk about the things you dont even know a word of,and i recommed you shutting your moth up forever.if today things like these happen,you better think about who has the crime in the first time.if only i spent my 90% of my day for being forgiven about what i did in this mortal world.its far better than sitting all day,walking around and get drunk.what are you doing not to go to the hell?im saying it for your goodness.you must pray at least once a day,and not insult millions of people's world by some disgusting words.

haku
06-02-2006, 22:32
i recommed you shutting your moth up forever.Is that a threat?
That's how Muslims treat women isn't it? 'Shut your mouth or else…' :rolleyes:

Fortunately Rachel lives in Europe, a place where she can do and say whatever she wants, that's call 'freedom of expression', look it up if you're not familiar with the concept.

if today things like these happen,you better think about who has the crime in the first time.Freedom of expression is an absolute right, it's not a 'crime', but decapitating westerners or burning embassies just because you disagree with their opinion *are* crimes.

if only i spent my 90% of my day for being forgiven about what i did in this mortal world.its far better than sitting all day,walking around and get drunk.what are you doing not to go to the hell?Most people in Europe don't believe in hell, try to understand that at least.

you must pray at least once a dayYou *must* ?! What gives you the right to order people to pray? What gives you the right to impose your religious beliefs on others? People follow many different religions, and many people don't believe in any religion at all, people who wish to pray can do it as much as they want, but there is no *must*, anyone is free to do whatever they want.

and not insult millions of people's world by some disgusting words.Again, that's called freedom of expression.

Rachel
06-02-2006, 23:26
LMAOOOOOOO :lol:

fanoff, get a fucking life!!! :p

Oh btw, look at this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4684652.stm).

Friendly bunch you muslims, hey? :rolleyes:

xmad
07-02-2006, 00:39
Lesson learned: The world sucks!
Yeah,that's right.
That's how Muslims treat women isn't it? 'Shut your mouth or else…'
How did you get this conclusion?
Most people in Europe don't believe in hell, try to understand that at least.
I dont believe it either.but it isnt bad if someone really believes in it.

QueenBee
07-02-2006, 05:25
fanoff, get a fucking life!!!
LOL I totally agree with that! You are ridiculous, fanoff! :lol:

Not ALL muslims are like that. I'm guessing the shia (?) muslims are more conservative, it's usually shia (? again, lol) women who wear cloths over their whole bodies, also convering their eyes. But the sunni muslims are less.. eh.. I don't know how to explain it, but from what I've learned they're basically a *bit* more open-minded, where the women have more rights (and are actually allowed to drive etc.). At least that's what I've learned from my muslim friends who are all sunni.

(Besides the politics and history of course, I know nothing about that! Just the 'modern' muslims)

Most of them don't pray, they don't even know how to pray, haha, but yes some of them do sometimes. One of them does it 5 times a day I believe.

I don't mean to offend, but I'm glad I'm not a muslim. Glad I'm not a christian either. Don't really see the point of being part of a religion as they're all corrupted and have slipped away from their original goals (peace on earth, love, equality).

marina
07-02-2006, 05:42
One of the very few occasions where i actually agree with

See , Amber , that is exactly what I have been thinking yesterday myself and wanted to write about . But then I thought better not , because, you know ,it might offend someone here ... My point is -- send them packing ! They come to the country in hordes , suck on benefits and dole and health service , education and so on . and all those arranged marriages just to bring more and more relatives (is it a surprise that 16 y.o. girls pushed to marry who knows who from homeland?) . And then they have cheek to go on a street to protest and threatened people like that ! Why not to go back home, eh ?
But they never do ! Because they know only too well that they never have in a million years such a life at home . Could you picture them standing on the street back home ,protesting something and a few feets away the police busy with the parking lot??
And as for UK police ...what do you want them to do ? Honestly ? Beat them ? gas them ? lock them in prison ? That is not a police fault that country is too soft and kind, to give bread and roof and better chance in life and then being bitten on a hand which feed them !
Send them packing I say !

haku
07-02-2006, 07:05
And then they have cheek to go on a street to protest and threatened people like that !Yes, they fail to understand that the freedom that gives them the right to protest is the same freedom that gives a cartoonist the right to caricature, you can't allow one and not the other, freedom of expression is absolute, a simple concept that totally elude them.

Could you picture them standing on the street back home ,protesting something and a few feets away the police busy with the parking lot??And imagine if a group of Europeans were to protest in an Arab capital holding signs saying things like 'Arabs are scum', 'Death to all Arabs', 'Islam is a cancer'… What would the Arab onlookers and the police do? Would they just look and move on? No of course, those European protesters would be beaten to a bloody pulp and a few probably lynched on the spot, because that's how they deal with 'freedom of expression' over there.

Send them packing I say !I agree with that. Like i said in another thread, it was a mistake to allow so many people from Africa and the Middle East to immigrate to Europe, they don't share our values, we don't share theirs, the cohabitation has proved to be impossible and that kind of riots emphasizes that fact.
Europeans who visit or go to work in Muslim countries are required to respect Islamic rules to the letter, but Muslims living in Europe not only refuse to understand and respect our values and laws but they actually want to impose Islamic rules to all Europeans by limiting our freedom of expression in areas that they consider 'sacred', which is of course absolutely unacceptable for Europeans.
Europeans have fought hard to acquire that freedom, we have fought against absolute monarchies, the Christian church, and all kinds of fascist regimes, and we are not about to let another religion take that away and dictate what we should or should not do, should or should not say in our own countries.
And if Muslims living in Europe really can't stand to live in countries where freedom of expression exists and where religion can be criticized because it doesn't hold any special status, then they can simply go back to Muslim countries where Islamic rule prevails and freedom is inexistent, and have a happy life over there.

zelda05
07-02-2006, 07:31
if only i spent my 90% of my day for being forgiven about what i did in this mortal world.
if they spent 90% of their time praying. who are protesting then? :spy: :laugh:

you must pray at least once a day...
Must? eeek. :bum:

And imagine if a group of Europeans were to protest in an Arab capital holding signs saying things like 'Arabs are scum', 'Death to all Arabs', 'Islam is a cancer'… What would the Arab onlookers and the police do? Would they just look and move on? No of course, those European protesters would be beaten to a bloody pulp and a few probably lynched on the spot, because that's how they deal with 'freedom of expression' over there.
Good point! :) The violence and holding offensive signs (such as "Europe is cancer.." etc) is utterly unacceptable.

teeny
07-02-2006, 09:26
ts far better than sitting all day,walking around and get drunk.what are you doing not to go to the hell?if doing things you enjoy is against your beliefs, then why would one enjoy heaven in the first place? Wouldn't it be better at least to enjoy time on earth and then see what the hell happens afterwards? Live now - worry later I'd say..

I should really stop opening the pictures in this thread :lalala:

freddie
07-02-2006, 14:19
I do believe there are loads of tolerant Muslims out there - in Arab countries as well as in the West. The problem though is in the fact, they're too lethargic when their religion is REALLY being mocked - like when extremists take to the streets holding up banners carrying racial slurs pointend against anything non-Muslim. THAT'S the real mockery. Anyone who trully believes in Islam should distance themselves from ignorant people like that.

I also believe that European leaders condemning these cartoons as well as network stations like CNN censoring them, when shown on the screen, is a huge mistake. They're giving up on the freedom of speech - a value we treasure in Europe for centuries - too easily. And who are they giving it up for? Moderate, reasonable Muslims? Nope. Extremists. Madmen. I find that extremely sad. We'd trade one of our basic rights because of fear.

fanoff
07-02-2006, 15:36
Is that a threat?
That's how Muslims treat women isn't it? 'Shut your mouth or else…' :rolleyes:
you better not talk about the thing you dont know a word of.what is Islam?answer thiis question in your mind and then answer me

Fortunately Rachel lives in Europe, a place where she can do and say whatever she wants, that's call 'freedom of expression', look it up if you're not familiar with the concept.shame i dont live in europe and can say whatever i want too.and i wonder if she can say "What Will I Do When(and after) I Die?"

Freedom of expression is an absolute right, it's not a 'crime', but decapitating westerners or burning embassies just because you disagree with their opinion *are* crimes.What are they expressing by insulting Muslim Messenger and muslim people?what expression does it give?

Most people in Europe don't believe in hell, try to understand that at least.
See them in the hell!

You *must* ?! What gives you the right to order people to pray? What gives you the right to impose your religious beliefs on others? People follow many different religions, and many people don't believe in any religion at all, people who wish to pray can do it as much as they want, but there is no *must*, anyone is free to do whatever they want.
i am not orderin anybody,i dont even are about what she does,i did say it for her goodness but if she isnt smart enough to understand this,i dont care about it too.you dont have the right to turn things just according to your benefit.

Again, that's called freedom of expression.
you are fucking wrong,man.its called absoulte insult.they should have thought before they did wirte something.God didnt give us brains just not to think.

xmad
07-02-2006, 15:38
I'm guessing the shia (?) muslims are more conservative, it's usually shia
If I wasnt a muslim(and shia) and if I didnt live in a muslim country then I would believe what you said.(I dont believe in any relegion but Im muslim and I dont deny this.)
women who wear cloths over their whole bodies, also convering their eyes.
Most people in Iran are muslim and most of them are shia but in whole my life I've only 2/3 times seen a woman like that.and the reason that I remember it is that I shocked because these things isnt common at all. But the sunni muslims are less.. eh.. I don't know how to explain it, but from what I've learned they're basically a *bit* more open-minded, where the women have more rights (and are actually allowed to drive etc.). Oh my God who said that.if you were right then in Iran we wouldnt allowed to drive.Well,all I can say is that WHAT A BIG LIE.(maybe that's right about arab countries but not about Iran)

QueenBee
07-02-2006, 15:43
"What Will I Do When(and after) I Die?"
LOL who gives a FUCK?!

Have YOU thought about it? ;) What if NOTHING happens? That's gonna be fun for you, who wasted your whole life praying 90% of the time. :laugh:

Rachel
07-02-2006, 15:44
LMAOOOOOOOO Queenie!! :laugh:

Oh so true!!! :coctail:

fanoff
07-02-2006, 15:54
LOL who gives a FUCK?!

Have YOU thought about it? What if NOTHING happens? That's gonna be fun for you, who wasted your whole life praying 90% of the time.

im not spending my time like that.i said i wished to do like that.and yes,i have thought about it so many times(im sure i did it more than you did)and decided that there is heaven and hell also.What would you do if theres something like that?have you thought about it?if there is,its not gonna be fun for you!

you all better try to respect my and millions of people's beliefs and not misunderstand me.i used to respect your choices(do you understand?if not,i can tell it),and i am waiting the same from you

haku
07-02-2006, 15:59
fanoff, give it a rest, you're just making a fool of yourself and looking like a total fanatic.

Obviously for you Islam is the only religion and the only truth, and you are totally intolerant of anything else, you're not even willing one second to consider that there are people with other beliefs and that some people don't believe in any gods, your comment that people who do not believe will go to hell speak for itself.
So much intolerance in someone that young, that's just sad.

what expression does it give?
Freedom of expression, the right for anyone to express freely their opinion without any fear of persecution, that's the cornerstone of the European civilization, a simple concept that you obviously fail to understand (which is additional evidence that Turkey should never be allowed to join the EU as it is obvious that you people do not understand at all the basic principles of individual freedom which is the foundation of the European civilization.)

rosh
07-02-2006, 16:01
personally, i dont agree with the cartoons. i believe whoever published them knew it would incite the sort of chaos thats now happening.

i dont agree with muslims issuing death threats and causing as much damage as they are in retaliation. in fact all theyre doing is proving the morons who published the cartoons in the first place, right about islam and muslims. this is sad. islam is a religion of peace. too bad about the way its being portrayed by some groups of people.

for the record, my feeling is that islam is still a younger religion than christianity for example. but some pockets of muslims are not the only ones being stupid in the name of religion. it happens in other religions too. think about doctors who perform abortions who then get killed by fanatical christian anti-abortionists. its not limited to one religion. and hey, thats done in the name of god too. and yes, thats also horrible and misguided.

i found the cartoons pointless, unless all they were trying to do was incite a few riots cause hey, all muslims are the same arent they ? :rolleyes:

well newsflash, all of us muslims arent the same. i believe in constitutional rights and everything else but if i wanted to get really childish, i could say the riots and burning of buildings is just another form of freedom of expression.

im not going to be childish though. i think both sides are wrong.

fanoff
07-02-2006, 16:12
fanoff, give it a rest, you're just making a fool of yourself and looking like a total fanatic.

Obviously for you Islam is the only religion and the only truth, and you are totally intolerant of anything else, you're not even willing one second to consider that there are people with other beliefs and that some people don't believe in any gods, your comment that people who do not believe will go to hell speak for itself.
So much intolerance in someone that young, that's just sad.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fanoff
what expression does it give?

Freedom of expression, the right for anyone to express freely their opinion without any fear of persecution, that's the cornerstone of the European civilization, a simple concept that you obviously fail to understand (which is additional evidence that Turkey should never be allowed to join the EU as it is obvious that you people do not understand at all the basic principles of individual freedom which is the foundation of the European civilization.)

you are still turning the things to your benefit.Now its the Eu thing.what would you do if someone called you gay in an insulting way and youre not gay?to you,its the freedom of expression(dont get me wrong,just an example)

im explainin it for the first time.one time i decided that theres no god but tried to think objectively,then understood the truth by myself.noone told me what to do.i said i dont care about people's beliefs or anything else.i learned to be tolerant to people but if they are using this against me,its the point that i get mad.and youre intoleant to me(about The Eu thing)you dont see how Turkey's changing.just say what you think,by not realising the truth

rosh
07-02-2006, 16:20
I agree with that. Like i said in another thread, it was a mistake to allow so many people from Africa and the Middle East to immigrate to Europe, they don't share our values, we don't share theirs, the cohabitation has proved to be impossible and that kind of riots emphasizes that fact.


i have a few problems with this statement. a lot of these people wouldnt have bothered immigrating had imperialist europeans not taken it upon themselves to invade their countries to rob, rape and pillage :rolleyes:

i do wish different cultures would try to integrate more. its happened here in cape town where you have huge groups of different cultures intermingling, not keeping to themselves and actually just integrating so well that lots of people just get along. you still get the ones who refuse to try, but theyre in the minority.

i think the viewpoint of the people emigrating to different european countries is that "this is the country that took so much away from my country by force, i will go there for a better life, while clinging desperately to a way of life that has been a part of my family and culture for generations"

they want better lives, but they want it on their terms. but yes, integration is key if we're all gonna try and get along with each other.

xmad
07-02-2006, 16:31
rosh,good point!!:done:

Rachel
07-02-2006, 16:33
you are still turning the things to your benefit.Now its the Eu thing.what would you do if someone called you gay in an insulting way and youre not gay?to you,its the freedom of expression(dont get me wrong,just an example)That just proves what an intollerant little boy you are.

Being called gay is not an insult, just as being called straight isn't.

Fucking grow up!!!

QueenBee
07-02-2006, 16:37
(im sure i did it more than you did)
How can you be sure of that? You have no idea of who I am, and you don't know what I'm thinking about (and how often).

and decided that there is heaven and hell also.What would you do if theres something like that?have you thought about it
You see, YOU decided that there is a heaven and hell. And you HAVE thought that there might not be. But in the long run, you decided that there is.

I decided that there is not. And yes I have thought about it, too. ;)

you all better try to respect my and millions of people's beliefs and not misunderstand me.i used to respect your choices(do you understand?if not,i can tell it),and i am waiting the same from you
How did I not respect it? I think I respected yours and you respected mine back. I just basically repeated what you said, except I said the opposite. It was still an opinion.

fanoff
07-02-2006, 16:37
isnt it intolerant?do i know wrong?intollerant,not sure about it.i know its not an insult,i think theres a misunderstanding here,i said called you gay in an insulting way?i hope you did understand.

xmad
07-02-2006, 16:38
That just proves what an intollerant little boy you are.
How did it prove that he is intollerant??:confused:
He doesnt seem intollerant.:)

Rachel
07-02-2006, 16:43
i said called you gay in an insulting way?i hope you did understand.THERE IS NO FUCKING INSULTING WAY!!!

I'm gay as well as millions of other people in the world, GAY, GAY, GAY, GAY, GAY...It's not an insult and never should be!

How did it prove that he is intollerant??:confused:
He doesnt seem intollerant.:)The fact that he believes that by calling someone gay it's an insult.

marina
07-02-2006, 16:47
they want better lives, but they want it on their terms.

And their terms are ?
Not hearing the muslim cartoons around or they blow up everything possible ?
No , not everything boils down to the past , at least not so simply . If you give me spare room in your home , if you nurse me when I'm sick , feed me , I have to live by your house rules . You may tolerate my little strange things , like my way of dressing , eating , music , but if I start to insult and threaten you , you have all the rights to kick me out . No matter what your Grand x10 time father did or didn't to my grand10xparents.

xmad
07-02-2006, 16:50
The fact that he believes that by calling someone gay it's an insult.
No,it never proves that.
I know what he is trying to say.There are sooooo many people who are not gay and they would be mad if someone called them GAY.

fanoff
07-02-2006, 16:50
i dont think its an insult!
WHAT MORE TIME WILL I SAY THAT?
some people may find it needless and expresses it by insulting.
do you like it?(thATs what amber calls freedom of expression,which i have the same opinion with you)
and i dont like how my beliefs are being insulted in the same way!

Rachel
07-02-2006, 16:53
There are sooooo many people who are not gay and they would be mad if someone called them GAY.But the point is they fucking shouldn't be!

xmad
07-02-2006, 17:05
But the point is they fucking shouldn't be!
If you ask me,well I'd say they shouldnt but the fact is that they dont like it and we can not change it.

rosh
07-02-2006, 17:14
And their terms are ?
Not hearing the muslim cartoons around or they blow up everything possible ?
No , not everything boils down to the past , at least not so simply . If you give me spare room in your home , if you nurse me when I'm sick , feed me , I have to live by your house rules . You may tolerate my little strange things , like my way of dressing , eating , music , but if I start to insult and threaten you , you have all the rights to kick me out . No matter what your Grand x10 time father did or didn't to my grand10xparents.

you quoted part of what i said rather than the entire sentence. at the end i said, but yes integration is key. of course things arent as simplistic as black and white, and my great grandparents stole your greatgrandparents gold or somesuch.

i think countries and cultures and communities need to do more to promote tolerance and awareness of each other. its one good step towards some sort of harmony. when i was at school i had christianity rammed down my throat even though i am not a christian. yet i saw christians and muslims living next door to each other, many of my friends were of different religions and because we grew up in this way, we learned about each others religious beliefs and cultures. friends of mine who were not muslim would ask questions about my religion. this is how i ended up not resenting the constant propaganda and endless scripture classes i had to sit through. i listened and i learned. i ended up learning that muslims and christians [and later on jews] actually had a lot in common. and yes i think im well aware of the differences. but we must also remember that cultural differences will play a huge role regardless of someones religion. my family for example is indian.yet ive never been forced into an arranged marriage since my parents dont believe in arranged marriages. unfortunately for some of my cousins though with more hardline parents, they were forced into arranged marriages.

my parents taught me to respect other peoples beliefs because they have the right their own beliefs and that i should never try to change that.

i think ill get off my soapbox for a bit

forre
07-02-2006, 17:20
I understand that Islamic world got offended by a Danish paper. Whos fault is that? The Danish paper editor. One guy who thought it isn't against any laws, except Islamic moral laws and Koran. So, is it a reason to start a global uproar, burning embassies and flags? Those people behave as a bunch of bulls - a crowd of wild prehistoric people. They are told that some one offended their belief and they throw themselves into a crusade. Agaisnt who? What are their demands?

I fear another thing - it is the beginning of a World War III. I don't exaggerate or overreact here, and I'm certainly not kidding.

xmad
07-02-2006, 17:22
I fear another thing - it is the beginning of a World War III. I don't exaggerate or overreacting and certainly not kidding.
Totally agree.that's exactly what I wanted to say.
A question :Isnt all this a really wise game to convience everyone that muslims are ignorant and wild or whatever to make it right to start a war against Iran for its necluear facilities??

marina
07-02-2006, 17:30
rosh , I see your point and it's a pleasure to talk to you . In fact it set me thinking that if someone from the *offended part * , some muslim cleric or ...I don't know who else , could say it to the world , to the media : how sick and shallow those cartoons are to the muslim -- there will be more sense! In civilised way.... By doing what they are doing now -- they would never get any sympathy .

Argos
07-02-2006, 17:39
Muslims burning Danish flags ( if they are their own property) - freedom of expression.
Saying, that Europe is a cancer - freedom of expression. It's my opinion, too, but for completely different reasons.
Why do you want to deny them their freedom to express their annoyance? :confused:


Freedom of expression, the right for anyone to express freely their opinion without any fear of persecution, that's the cornerstone of the European civilization...

When I run on the streets and shout "Sieg Heil!" I find myself in jail.
An Austrian member of the Federal Council has a trial, because he said: "It has to be proved, that the Nazis killed 6 mio. Jews."
You don't even have the right to make a fool of yourself, at least in some European countries.
So , what I have to say: One measure for all and everything, or no measure at all!

Finally, yes Olga, you are completely right, except one thing, WW III has already begun!

haku
07-02-2006, 17:39
i have a few problems with this statement. a lot of these people wouldnt have bothered immigrating had imperialist europeans not taken it upon themselves to invade their countries to rob, rape and pillage
Arabs invaded Europe through the strait of Gibraltar in 711, they quickly occupied the Iberian peninsula and had the intention of conquering the entire European continent, they were fortunately (for us Europeans) defeated in North-Western France at the Battle of Tours in 732, stopping their expansion there.
However, Arabs remained in control of the Iberian peninsula for several centuries and kept launching attacks on European kingdoms until the peninsula was finally fully liberated in 1492.

Ottomans invaded Europe through the strait of Bosporus in 1453 (invasion of Constantinople) and occupied the Balkan region for several centuries until the fall of the Ottoman empire during WWI. Most of the occupied European territories were then freed from the Ottoman occupation except for Constantinople itself and its surroundings which were never given back to Greeks.

I believe that the Arab and Ottoman invasions involved some robbing, raping, and pillaging as well and were not just about distributing flowers to European woman.

And all of that happened before the colonization by Europeans. Historically, it's Muslims who invaded Europe first and presented themselves as mortal enemies of everything the European civillization stands for, and they continue today.

rosh
07-02-2006, 18:12
And all of that happened before the colonization by Europeans. Historically, it's Muslims who invaded Europe first and presented themselves as mortal enemies of everything the European civillization stands for, and they continue today.

noted, but draw a distinction please. arab muslims, unless you can continue the interesting history lesson and tell me whether indians and africans did the same ? [oh, also, i am not being sarcastic in the least, so please do not take me the wrong way] because [and perhaps you can correct me here too if i am wrong] but i believe that most muslim immigrants to europe tend to come from africa / the indian subcontinent ?

your post quotes what arab muslims did in the name of islam. and thats fine, i should have been more specific that i was thinking of africans and indians/pakistanis/bangladeshis.

i dont believe it makes more sense for each of us to remain in our little pockets of the world and never venture out, and therefore i dont agree with you that people shouldnt be emigrating to europe to use your example. we need to learn about each other. and through knowledge also learn acceptance or at the very least tolerance. yes i know im an idealist.

rosh , I see your point and it's a pleasure to talk to you . In fact it set me thinking that if someone from the *offended part * , some muslim cleric or ...I don't know who else , could say it to the world , to the media : how sick and shallow those cartoons are to the muslim -- there will be more sense! In civilised way.... By doing what they are doing now -- they would never get any sympathy .


thank you marina. i agree with you completely there. i honestly wish that muslim leaders would get out into a secular place and actually just try to explain why muslims would find these cartoons so offensive. but moreover, explain to their congregations that the countries theyre living in promote certain freedoms and that as much as anyone has to respect someones right to practise the religion of their choice, muslims must respect that there are people who choose to express themselves, even in unsavoury ways.

argos : very valid points too.

forre
07-02-2006, 18:12
Finally, yes Olga, you are completely right, except one thing, WW III has already begun!
When? I spoke mostly as of a trigger.

This situation is a lot different from everything else that we had before during the past 50 years. There're no victims of unfair attacks. This time it's a religious issue only. Almost no religious twist so far was solved without a war. This time it's not about a certain country either. It already caused a chain reaction through out the world.

Linda16
07-02-2006, 18:24
I fear another thing - it is the beginning of a World War III. I don't exaggerate or overreact here, and I'm certainly not kidding.

I'm afraid that you are right. The opposition and misunderstanding of each other is growing and growing. Even this discussion here is not just a simple "discussion". There is hate in it. And from both sides. It's awful. I'm feeling really sorry for it.

QueenBee
07-02-2006, 18:26
The end of the world is obviously near.

Argos
07-02-2006, 18:32
This time it's a religious issue only. Almost no religious twist so far was solved without a war. This time it's not about a certain country either. It already caused a chain reaction through out the world.

Absolutely true. To sum up: A war between our western world and islamic fundamentalism, trying to reconquer the world against the "unmoral" western world, the muslim extremists speak of "Jihad", Bush speaks of "crusade" (later corrected to "war") against Islamic terror. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the numerous terror attack in USA, Europe and touristic centres all around the world, measures to reduce freedom of people in the US to protect the people against the enemy, and a death toll of civilians of much more than 10.000 people, that are all signs of a war, that has already begun.

forre
07-02-2006, 19:42
Btw, anyone got hold on those controversial cartoons? Internet is a powerful thing I guess. Time for extremists to burn IBM high quarters and CERN maybe..

For the curious ones (http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/)

haku
07-02-2006, 20:21
i believe that most muslim immigrants to europe tend to come from africa / the indian subcontinent ?Most Muslim immigrants in Europe are Arabs from North Africa and the Middle East, there are also many Turks in Germany, Britain is a notable exception with many immigrants from the Indian subcontinent (for obvious historical reasons) but you won't find many or them anywhere else in Europe.

For the curious onesThanks for the link forre, interesting to see that there has been representation of Mohammed in Persian art, and that caricatures have been there for decades.

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/sp_mohammed.gif
Haha, yeah, i remember that episode of South Park that featured Mohammed and all other religious figures, hillarious stuff (and it caused no riots :rolleyes: ).

The one about heaven running out of virgins is pretty good since this is apparently the main goal of suicide bombers, killing a bunch of random westerners sends you directly to heaven and you get 12 virgins.

And i didn't know that Mohammed had a 6 year old bride, no comment.

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/20060204.gif
This one is really good because it shows the hypocrisy of all this.

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/Legohammed.jpg
Oh damn, Lego is a Danish company, we can expect anti-Lego riots now. :rolleyes:

nath
07-02-2006, 20:29
Specially for Pat:
Last week, the Lebanon Prime Minister has suggested that as France has a high raise of Muslim persons in its population, it should be logical to include some parts of the Charia in the French constitution....:D


The director of the french newspaper "France Soir" was fired cause he has published the caricatures.
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/02/02/france.cartoon.ap/index.html
Think I will soon ask for the Swedish Nationality, here... ;)

fanoff
07-02-2006, 20:35
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/02/02/cartoons.wrap/index.html

check the poll of cnn out and find out what people think.then decide if i am intolerant

rosh
07-02-2006, 20:42
And i didn't know that Mohammed had a 6 year old bride, no comment.




he didnt

depending on who you choose to believe of course. having studied my religion, his 3rd bride who youre talking about, was b/t the ages of 15-20 when they married.

im sure if you google for this youll find loads of articles claiming she was a 6 yr old bride with evidence. you will also find loads of articles claiming she was a teenager, with evidence.

you can believe whichever suits your purpose.

Argos
07-02-2006, 20:43
Think I will soon ask for the Swedish Nationality, here... ;)

Better here ...

In the cosmos we are free
there's no atmosphere and no obsession...

I think muslim extremists will not reach space that soon...

haku
07-02-2006, 20:48
Last week, the Lebanon Prime Minister has suggested that as France has a high raise of Muslim persons in its population, it should be logical to include some parts of the Charia in the French constitution....:D
Haha, i'm not surprised. :D Obviously he missed the point that the French constitution is strictly laic and therefore totally free of any religious reference of any kind.

That's the problem with Muslim immigrants, they don't want to integrate into the hosting country, but they want to impose their own beliefs and laws on the entire population.
But our ancestors fought the Christian church in 1789 during the French revolution to free the people from the clerical oppression and we are not going to let another clergy oppress us.

rosh
07-02-2006, 20:52
That's the problem with Muslim immigrants, they don't want to integrate into the hosting country, but they want to impose their own beliefs and laws on the entire population.
But our ancestors fought the Christian church in 1789 during the French revolution to free the people from the clerical oppression and we are not going to let another clergy oppress us.

ill never understand why muslim immigrants try and force sharia law wherever they go. when i got my islamic education i was specifically taught to tolerate and accept all other religions as they were religions of the same god. also, its against the teachings of islam [and i dont mean the flavour fundamentalists choose to try and spread] to force your religious beliefs on someone else.

islam is a religion of tolerance. many muslims just dont happen to be tolerant.

haku
07-02-2006, 20:55
you can believe whichever suits your purpose.I have no interest in believing or not believing this particular detail, for me all religions are myths anyway, fictions, so it doesn't matter what they say.

My only purpose is to be free from any religious oppression, i am a typical French republican in that regard, i am strictly laic and i do not recognize any authority to any religious organization.

rosh
07-02-2006, 21:27
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4690224.stm

Controversial Muslim cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri has been jailed for seven years after being found guilty of inciting murder and race hate.

finally. been waiting for this to happen for a while. my hope is that this sends out a message to other people [not just extremist muslims] who preach hate speech

teeny
07-02-2006, 21:31
thanks for the link Forre.. first time I got to see the drawings fully. I like the one with the text where the one guy try to calm down the upset people by saying it's only a drawing after all

PowerPuff Grrl
07-02-2006, 21:50
Let's not start preaching anti-immigration nationalism here because that precisiely plays into the hands of anti-immigration nationalists and Islamic extremists. You can't possibly paint all Muslims with the same brush because most are moderate. The problem is with the image of Islam. The West keeps hearing "Islam is about peace" but we aren't actually seeing it. Sure you can say that Islam is a young religion and that 500 years ago Christianity was even worse. But Islam in the dark ages was enlightened, they weren't crazy like Europeans. Jews were proctected under Muslims. Ancient phliosophies of Aristotle, Plato and Socrates were preserved because of the Muslims. Algebra was invented by Muslims. Christians were to busy buring down libraries, Orthodox Churches, Jews, Women, and inventing racism to give a fuck.
We know what happened with Christianity later on.
But what the fuck happened with Islam?

Yes technically I know what happened (the Empire crumbled and reverted back to its Bedouin culture). But how the hell did moderates let this happen? How can they still let this happen?
You can't blame the West for having a distorted view of Islam when the most prominent leaders of Islam are Osmam Bin Laden, Al-Zaqarwi, Al-Zawari, Mohammed Ahmadenijad (sp?), etc...
Christians have their crazy leaders too; Pat Robertson, Fred Phelps, but we have good leaders to counteract that; Rev. Martin Luther King, every nameless Christian that helps out in every single disaster.
There are no good, tolerant, influential Muslim leaders to counteract the crazy fundamentalists. (Grand Ayatollah Ali Al-Sistani seems likely but he's too content living in a small village in Iraq, and he's Shiite).

I fear there'll be a tipping point soon. Something will happen on the scale of the Fundamentalist's reaction to the cartoons and 9/11, something that will really shake up the West to react to the Muslim world in the same ferocity of the Fundamentalists. This can actually lead to a Holy War which is what these crazy fucks want. We can't let that happen. We can't let our protectionist instincts view all Muslims as a threat, then act on that threat, especially when they aren't all a threat. And we all know that nobody, nobody can survive the wrath of crazy Christians.

Our frustrations should not be towards the crazy fundamentalists because there are crazy fundamentalists everywhere (imagine Christianity ruled by Fred Phelps). Our frustrations should be trageted towards moderate Muslims who won't stand up against this bullshit and therefore let the crazies gain so much authority.


Specially for Pat:
Last week, the Lebanon Prime Minister has suggested that as France has a high raise of Muslim persons in its population, it should be logical to include some parts of the Charia in the French constitution....:D

The director of the french newspaper "France Soir" was fired cause he has published the caricatures.
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/02/02/france.cartoon.ap/index.html
Think I will soon ask for the Swedish Nationality, here... ;)

The editor of the Jordanian newspaper that published the photos and called for moderation was arrested and charge on counts of Blasphemy. Considering that Jordan is pretty tolerant, I'm guessing that the gov't is protecting from worse punishment from fundamentalists.

Concerning Sharia Law; Muslim clerics proposed both the Provincial Government of Quebec and Ontario to adopt Sharia law for family cases since the Christians and Jews can do so. Sounds reasonable but while the Christian and Jewish family mediators parallel Canadian Family Law, Sharia of course favours the men moreso than the women in family conflict.
Guess who opposed the proposal?
No really guess?
Muslims... unanimoulsy.

So Amber don't tell me that Muslims cannot integrate well into Western society when they do so everywhere else. That shit is a European problem with the fault mostly on European hands.

Oh and Queenbee; it's the Shia's that are relatively tolerant and the Sunni's that are not. Sunni dominated countries: Saudi Arabia (full covering of a woman's body, ban on women driving), Afghanistan Taliban-era (need I say more). Shia dominated countries: Iraq (women allowed to drive) and Iran (25% of film directors are women and the women wear hijabs like Grace Kelly :D ).

Also take into account that Sunnis hate Shia's and think they are all going to hell. They sometimes even bomb their Mosques and have terrorist attacks on them during religious holidays as you see in Iraq. Never the other way around.

zelda05
07-02-2006, 22:59
Sunni dominated countries: Saudi Arabia (full covering of a woman's body, ban on women driving)...
ban on women driving? Gas prices too high?! :rolleyes: :laugh:

haku
07-02-2006, 23:35
Concerning Sharia Law; Muslim clerics proposed both the Provincial Government of Quebec and Ontario to adopt Sharia law for family cases since the Christians and Jews can do so. Sounds reasonable but while the Christian and Jewish family mediators parallel Canadian Family Law, Sharia of course favours the men moreso than the women in family conflict.
Guess who opposed the proposal?
No really guess?
Muslims... unanimoulsy.Well, here we don't have special laws depending on your religion, it's the same law for everyone.
But Muslims indeed want the Sharia to be adopted in France, and not just for them but for everyone, they want the legalization of polygamy, they want the right to 'discipline' their women, several young women born on French soil but of Arab origin have actually been seriously beaten up (or burned alive with gasoline, or disfigured with acid to their faces) by their own families because they had become 'French whores' (understand normal women who do what any other western woman do), they want the right to force teenage girls to marry men from their 'homeland' (they won't ever allow a marriage with a French person), generally the young girl (12 to 16 years old) is sent on "vacation" to the "homeland" where she'll discover that she's actually there to get married to a man she has never seen, she'll get raped during the wedding night (but of course that's not a rape according to them, forcing a rebellious bride is a cultural tradition that must be respected, it's like taming a horse apparently or something), and then she'll get back from "vacation" with her new husband who will be allowed a visa since they are now husband and wife, basically they want our country to become exactly like their country, whether we like it or not.

That shit is a European problem with the fault mostly on European hands.That's a bit easy, Muslims are the ones doing the violence, but it's our fault, Muslims are the ones blowing up bombs in our cities killing hundreds of civilians, but it's our fault, Mulsims are the ones decapitating western hostages, but it's our fault, Muslims are the ones stuck with a mentality belonging to the Middle Ages, but it's our fault.
It's great to be a Muslim, whatever you do, it's never your fault.

PowerPuff Grrl
08-02-2006, 00:18
That's a bit easy, Muslims are the ones doing the violence, but it's our fault, Muslims are the ones blowing up bombs in our cities killing hundreds of civilians, but it's our fault, Mulsims are the ones decapitating western hostages, but it's our fault, Muslims are the ones stuck with a mentality belonging to the Middle Ages, but it's our fault.
It's great to be a Muslim, whatever you do, it's never your fault.

Muslims and other immigrants get constantly discriminated when applying for jobs (NBBR?), Muslims live in the shittiest of living conditions, Muslims have no protection from actual law enforcement but rather from Muslim fundamentalists who have no qualifications whatsoever do that sort of thing at the Government's approval... but it doesn't matter, it isn't a "European" problem.

Muslims are offered welfare to make up for having absolutley no way of moving up in society. They are constantly reminded that they aren't European, and never will be and that the only reason why they get to live in Europe it because of the "charity" of kind Europeans.

Europe created a bubble for Muslims to rot under, making them ripe for Islamic fundamentalists.
So no, it may not be all your fault, but you sure as shit aren't all that innocent either.

freddie
08-02-2006, 01:16
The problem is quite clear: the appaling condition most muslims live in, especially in the Middle East makes them more prone to be influenced and manipulated. We're talking about generations and generations living in a constant existencial crisis and poverty. All they have is a religion that offers them salvation and the end of all earthly suffering. OF COURSE they'll grab on to it with both hands... and of course there'll be people who'll try to exploit this, turning regular people into cannon fodder for their terrotorial/political claims. Just as Christianity was massively popular among the slaves of the Roman Empire, since it promised them an after-life where they wouldn't suffer anymore. What could be more appealing than that? All Roman paganism offered them was a life of slavery. People need hope. A way out - even if it's completely ridiculous and unplausable. Same thing with Islam. All these "after-life" religions were a product of suffering and lure of the possible salvation. And there were always people perfectly capable of exploiting that human trait.

I agree with the point how moderate Muslims are the key in this difficult times - only they can stand up and say enough is enough, renouncing violence once and forever (and when I say moderate I don't mean the inbetween ones, like a certain member of this forum - the ones that throw up ignorance and spite without really knowing what the hell they're saying). If Islam is really a religion of peace then fucking SHOW it. Passively watching their offended peers burning down foreign embassies, while only commenting on these unfortunate cartoons, is almost like quiet affirmation... there's a saying in roman law: "He who doesn't speak about the matter is considered to be approving." It's called tacita consensus. That's exactly what moderate Muslims are doing at the moment.

haku
08-02-2006, 03:16
Muslims and other immigrants get constantly discriminated when applying for jobs (NBBR?), Muslims live in the shittiest of living conditions, Muslims have no protection from actual law enforcement but rather from Muslim fundamentalists who have no qualifications whatsoever do that sort of thing at the Government's approval... but it doesn't matter, it isn't a "European" problem.

Muslims are offered welfare to make up for having absolutley no way of moving up in society. They are constantly reminded that they aren't European, and never will be and that the only reason why they get to live in Europe it because of the "charity" of kind Europeans.Like every year, we allowed about 1.7 million migrants to settle in the EU in 2005, we are *so* evil, we truly deserve to get our throats cut.

Europe created a bubble for Muslims to rot under, making them ripe for Islamic fundamentalists.
So no, it may not be all your fault, but you sure as shit aren't all that innocent either.Yeah, yeah, everything is our fault, i get your point. Well, rejoice, after the bombings in Madrid and London, it is obvious that Muslims will launch even more massive attacks on European soil that will cause the death of thousands of people, you'll get to see many evil Europeans paying for their crimes against Allah.


In related news:
A European priest was murdered (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4688518.stm) by a Muslim in Turkey in the name of Allah, probably because of the Mohammed cartoons, but maybe just because he was European which is reason enough to be murdered anyway (we are infidel pigs you know).

A Iranian newspaper is launching an 'hollocaust caricature contest' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4688466.stm) in retaliation to the Mohammed caricatures. See? Muslims *can* understand the concept of freedom of expression… as long as it involves making fun of the jews of course.

PowerPuff Grrl
08-02-2006, 06:56
That's precisely it, Amber.
I'm glad you can finally see light.
:rolleyes:

nath
08-02-2006, 07:25
Muslims and other immigrants get constantly discriminated when applying for jobs (NBBR?), Muslims live in the shittiest of living conditions, Muslims have no protection from actual law enforcement but rather from Muslim fundamentalists who have no qualifications whatsoever do that sort of thing at the Government's approval... but it doesn't matter, it isn't a "European" problem.
Just live in France as the majority of Muslim immigrants live, here, and you will be richer than I am.

Sorry to tell you that but your vision of Muslim Immigrant way of life in France (I don't know for other European countries...) is a little a kind of ...."carricature"....

Some Asian people live in France often in worse conditions but they work as crazy, they don't call you as "Racist" just when you ask them how is the weather today and they don't cry in all the newspapers how they are so unhappy and treated as dogs in France.

The problem isn't as you seem to think the colour of the skin...the problem is the MENTALITY....

Some of Muslim immigrants are integrated in the French society and you don't even hear about them in the newspapers....
Some others don't even try to integrate but want to impose their own rules at their host country...
They are often the same who complain and who exploit the society, in knowing perfectly how worse it is in their own country. That's why it becomes unbearable for some French people.

We've had a strong immigration wave of Pollack or Portuguese People in France...but we've never had these kinds of problems with them....

Sorry to tell you that but one of the characteristic of Muslim people is the "strong aggressive attitude" against their host country. A dominant you don't find in Asian or Portuguese or Pollack communities which were immigrants just as them.

They have a kind of inferiority complex that they translate by a strong aggressive attitude.
People are patient but at the end it becomes boring and irritating.

teeny
08-02-2006, 08:53
just live in France as the majority of Muslim immigrants live, here, and you will be richer than I am.It's the same in denmark. Richer than most at least

zelda05
08-02-2006, 13:03
I'm gay as well as millions of other people in the world, GAY, GAY, GAY, GAY, GAY...It's not an insult and never should be!
I strongly agree! :yes: Being called gay shouldn't be an insult, but unfortunately we live in a world in which people are easily offended.

A Iranian newspaper is launching an 'hollocaust caricature contest'
This is just fucking ridiculous! The media has the responsibility to calm the situation, but apparently they fueling more ill feeling. As we see it, there is no hope that the violence will be subsiding any time soon. :bum:

freddie
08-02-2006, 15:50
Uh-oh. We're straying away from teh topic here. How Muslims live TODAY (whether be good or bad) is still no excuse for them not to stand up for their religion being portrayed in a violent, fanatical way. If they're true believers it's their job to do so.

EDIT: LOL (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L06153755.htm)

PowerPuff Grrl
09-02-2006, 07:57
Uh-oh. We're straying away from teh topic here. How Muslims live TODAY (whether be good or bad) is still no excuse for them not to stand up for their religion being portrayed in a violent, fanatical way. If they're true believers it's their job to do so.

EDIT: LOL (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L06153755.htm)
But are they even true believers? Because even the moderate ones get me thinking.

Anyhoo, that link is hilarious, such a pity that the guy lives in Gaza, If he were American he'd be a gazillionaire. You have to admire that kind of capitalist ingenuity.

Sorry to tell you that but your vision of Muslim Immigrant way of life in France (I don't know for other European countries...) is a little a kind of ...."carricature"....

Some Asian people live in France often in worse conditions but they work as crazy, they don't call you as "Racist" just when you ask them how is the weather today and they don't cry in all the newspapers how they are so unhappy and treated as dogs in France.
But they should! (Not the racist part, unless it holds some truth)
Just because they are docile doesn't mean they are better citizens. I'm no trying to say that France is the only country that treats its immigrants like shit. To a lesser degree so does the US and Canada but at least the second generation of immigrants have just as many opportunities offered to them as non-immigrant people. Honestly can you say that the people rioting last fall had access to those opportunities?
I'm really asking here, because everywhere else in the world (N. America and Australia/NewZealand) its always the second generation immigrants that are well integrated to society. I just can't see why it's the immigrants that are different from all other immigrants and not the host country. I think we have just scratched the surface in this whole issue, if you could tell me or send links that would explain in-depth exactly why Muslim find it sooo hard to integrate into France.


Some of Muslim immigrants are integrated in the French society and you don't even hear about them in the newspapers....
Some others don't even try to integrate but want to impose their own rules at their host country...
They are often the same who complain and who exploit the society, in knowing perfectly how worse it is in their own country. That's why it becomes unbearable for some French people.
Trust me, you don't have to explain to me why the French are starting to dislike Muslims. I may not have visited France to experience what you are talking about but I have lived in the Middle East. You haven't seen them in their own society. This would explain my utter indifference to the cartoons and the Australian riots (it takes one brand of stupidity to cancel out the other).
Hell even here in Canada they made some unwarranted grieveances. Two Christmas's ago some conservative Muslims wanted Canadians to stop publically celebrating Christmas. Seriously. They argued that all the decorations displayed throughout cities offended them.
Now keep in mind that:
1) Canadians are not religious whatsoever. Christmas being the one time we celebrate something remotely religious in public.
2) Canadians even took the liberty, before the whole debacle, to wish everybody "Happy Holidays" regardless of religion. This started thirteen years ago, even public schools stopped having Christmas pagaents.
3) Places where Muslims worked always accomodated for Ramadan.

What happened is that with the support of the Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, and some Muslim communities (though not most, of course) were all very vocal about how much they appreciated the aesthetics of Christmas, Canadians basically gave a giant Fuck-off to those Muslims. Canada. Canada. Big giant tundra of tolerance, Canada.

I can understand that the tendency Muslims have to command authority they didn't earn gets pretty fucking aggravating. I just don't understand why some people can let that give them license to assume the worse for all Muslims and to a greater extent all immigrants.


We've had a strong immigration wave of Pollack or Portuguese People in France...but we've never had these kinds of problems with them...
Though I'm fully aware that Europe has all sorts of schisms between countries, I'm sorry but you can't possibly compare Polish and Portuguese immigrants with Non-European ones. Geographically speaking, you live just two doors down from each other on either end and historically believe in the same faith. I know that these immigrants first experienced some mega-hardships when first living in France but eventually their children were able to exceed. See where I'm getting at here? The second generation of immigrants are supposed to exceed, regardless of where they are from. Why isn't this happening with the Muslims, particularly in Europe (excluding the UK, and possibly Ireland)? Why is it happening in other places but in Europe?

Amber, nath and anybody else who'd like to contribute; I'd love to hear what you guys think.

nath
09-02-2006, 08:43
I have to go downtown so I will reply longer later.....just i can leave without replying to that ...
I was travelling near Christmas so I've lost a little the conversation...But i will reply longer in your other thread
Honestly can you say that the people rioting last fall had access to those opportunities?
When will you understand that the people who have made riot belong to GANGS!!! Mob!!!

You say we don't treat well strangers? I just want to tell you something .....in other countries, all these "riotmen" would be in JAIL!!! Long time before the big riots.....cause they are just "banditos".....

Now if you perfer to believe them, instead of me when I tell you that , do it.....

You know I'm a teacher in a school in the middle of the habitation of immigrated population. In my school I think the proportion might be of 80% of kiddies from immigration (even if a lot of them have french nationality).
I wpork in this same school for 13 years.

May be 5 years ago we had new teachers who arrived there....I love them...I mean they are my friends....so they won't be I think if I was a pure "fascist, Racist, closed-mind" person.
When they arrived they were full of enthusiasm and were claining "The poors: it's the fault of society which treats them badly...." -as you seem to think it-....when I explained my ideas about this point , they were looking at me with big eyes, saying "Oh you are a little too hard"....
So I smiled as I often do it in tatysite, cause I know Time changes a lot in the vieaw of people.
And I've observed them.

2 weeks agao, before the Cartoons things, they spoke about that again....and now ....these young persons who are from pure left wing told me "You were right. We are absolutely disgusted cause they abuse at the maximum of the society....really France is too laxist/cool!!"
And they are became worse than me in their judgement!!...cause they were disappointed and have realised it.

So please, don't tell it's because we treat them badly!!!
Cause it's wrong.
In France, if you want you can live without working....just if you manage to explain how poor you are.....you have a lot of money which is given to you...education is FREE......you even get money to go to University if you are poor.....

So , of course , you will never rach the University if you prefer to use all your energy in dealing in the street since you are 10 years old, instead of trying to study.

It's a question of CHOICE.
Why do Asian people integrate in keeping their own culture? Cause they chose to STUDY....they want to success for getting a future job.

and don't tell me it's a question of langage: cause most of the time , Asian kiddies have their parents who don't speak French langage....instead of Muslim people . They often speak french without problem.

Just the mentatlity is different. And the RULES, the LAWS are different. I'm not sure that in Canada, they could do all the unlawed, illicite things they can do in France without having big problems!!!!

The problem in France is the Laxism!
As I've said previously , when you are in a country, you have Rights and Duties.
One of the main problem here is that people claim for the rights (and believe me , get them) but refuse the duties.
One of this Duty is just to Obey to the Law.

So please don't mix Gangsters with Immgration problem!

BUSINESS IS BUSINESS :D
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L06153755.htm

haku
09-02-2006, 21:23
I'm no trying to say that France is the only country that treats its immigrants like shit.

France does not treat its immigrants like shit, they immediately get most of the rights of any French citizen (social security, unemployment benefits, free education, etc.), and obtaining citizenship is extremely easy (way too easy if you ask me), it only takes 5 years of residency in France for an immigrant to obtain full citizenship and any child born on French soil (even if both parents are not French) is French by birth.
And let's remind here that obtaining citizenship in any EU country makes you by definition an EU citizen and gives you full access to the 25 member states.

Honestly can you say that the people rioting last fall had access to those opportunities?

Like nath already said, those riots were not racially or religiously motivated, it was a gang response to a stricter security policy put in place by Nicolas Sarkozy (Minister of Interior), those rioters were of all backgrounds and had no demands other than "Let us steal, deal and racket as much as we want".
And i don't know how those riots were portrayed abroad, but i'll remind that nobody was killed or even seriously injured (it's in times like these that it's a good thing to be in a country where guns are banned), it was mostly small groups setting fire to random properties at night, physical violence was rare.

why Muslim find it sooo hard to integrate into France.

Because most of them don't want to integrate, or are only willing to integrate if France became a Muslim state.

The core of the problem is that France is a strictly laic republic, people must remember that the French revolution was done against the aristocracy *and* the clergy because at the time they were oppressing the people hand in hand, therefore both were removed from power and were equally considered a threat to freedom that had to be rooted out.
The French constitution guarantees that anyone is free to believe in any religion or not believe at all, but it also clearly states that religious beliefs have to be kept in the private sphere and are not allowed in the public sphere, that means that religion has to be kept out of politics and public institutions in general (justice, police, education, etc.).
No French politician would ever mention their religion or their beliefs publicly, in the US everyone knows the particular beliefs of any given politician for example, in France we don't care and we don't want to know, no French politician would ever mention 'god' in a speech, they would be immediately considered a religious fanatic (which is why many French people think Bush is a Christian fanatic, because he mentions god all the time in his political declaration which is totally unthinkable in France).

And that's the main problem, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Buddhists, Shintoists, Atheists, whatever, they *all* understand the principles of the French republic to keep religion strictly in the private sphere, but Muslims don't. They push their religion in our faces all the time and they want to impose their beliefs to the entire population, they get offended because we eat pork, they get offended because we drink alcohol, they get offended because French women show quite a lot of skin in Summer, they get offended because we have nudity in the media, and as we've seen recently, they get offended because we allow freedom of expression and criticism of religion. They don't respect our culture, they don't want to integrate the nation, they refuse to embrace our values, in many aspects they still have the same mentality as the Muslim warriors who invaded Europe in the 8th century and tried to convert all of us to Islam, they think that they are holding the only truth: *Islam*, and that all of us should adopt *their* beliefs.
Maybe it has also something to do with the geographical proximity with the countries of origin, most of those Muslim immigrants go back over there every year on vacation, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation it doesn't matter, they all go back regularly and whatever adaptation to European culture they may have undergone while in Europe, it's quickly wiped away during their stay in their countries of origin and they come back as if they were fresh new immigrants, making integration nearly impossible.

Most Muslims are here to use and take, not to integrate and be a part of, they want the benefits without the duties. Recently a rap band (with Muslim members) released a song that quite sum up the way they see things, basically the song was saying "France is a whore, fuck her, use her, do what you want."
Or to show another aspect of that attitude, last year a documentary about young French Muslims was shown on TV, it had been made after a Muslim teenage girl had been burned alive by Muslim teenage boys (basically because she had become "too French", a "whore"). Those Muslim boys were asked if they ever socialized with non Muslim girls and they all answered something like this "Sure, if we want to get laid we're going to go see some French sluts, French girls are easy lays, they're all whores, Muslim girls have to remain pure virgins until marriage so that's why we go to French whores to have fun, but we'd never marry one of those whores, we'll only marry good Muslim virgins." Of course by 'whore' they don't mean actual prostitutes, they just mean any French woman who's not Muslim.
And whens asked "What would you do if you discovered that your sister had sex before marriage?", they answered "I would beat her up, a good Muslim girl must remain pure, if she's not a virgin at marriage she brings shame on the whole family", and when asked "And if boys have sex before marriage it does not bring shame?", they answered "No, no, it's different for boys, it's only for girls."
And notice that in that same neighborhood, non Muslim women were regularly harassed and insulted by those same boys if they had the audacity to wear a skirt or show a bit of cleavage. And those boys were 3rd generation, French by birth, and yet their whole mentality was like they had come from Saudi Arabia that very morning, a blatant refusal to integrate French society.

And i wanted to add that integration is no guarantee against Muslim violence anyway, the Muslims who made the attacks in London's subway were fully integrated, educated middle class British citizens and yet they still hated European culture and wanted to kill random Europeans in the name of god.

fanoff
09-02-2006, 22:32
why you always say it as muslim violence?do you think all the muslim people are violent?which one of us intolerant to the other?isnt there any christians who kill muslims?and do you think thats ok but the opposite is wrong?(i think the both are nonsense)there must be questions for those(it isnt an order,freedom of expression)

crni
09-02-2006, 23:38
a croatian weekly paper has shown muhamed's pic also and a huge riot happened yesterday in sarajevo (bosnia)... of course, they burned croatian flag, but also danish and french... :rolleyes:

some crazy sh*t!! :lol:

spyretto
10-02-2006, 00:33
Yeah, I agree that muslim fundamentalists are pretty fucked up but of course the western press would fan the flames a bit more in defense of the "freedom of speech".
This whole issue has blown completely out of proportion..lets see where the new nonsense will lead us. Do people have to die over this?

nath
10-02-2006, 04:43
why you always say it as muslim violence?do you think all the muslim people are violent?which one of us intolerant to the other?isnt there any christians who kill muslims?and do you think thats ok but the opposite is wrong?(i think the both are nonsense)there must be questions for those(it isnt an order,freedom of expression)
We have just replied to explain that the origine of the violence which was in France wasn't because France treats badly its immigrants, as this is so, so easy to say.

PowerPuff Grrl
10-02-2006, 07:26
When will you understand that the people who have made riot belong to GANGS!!! Mob!!!

You say we don't treat well strangers? I just want to tell you something .....in other countries, all these "riotmen" would be in JAIL!!! Long time before the big riots.....cause they are just "banditos".....

Now if you perfer to believe them, instead of me when I tell you that , do it.....
Hey chill out! I believe you. :D
For me it's not hard to believe that a lot of these immigrants aren't exactly "model citizens," to put it lightly. It's just hard to believe that they have always been like that, ever since they first stepped into France.

What I'm wondering is what came first? Are these shifts in attitudes in France all reactionary?
Did the French Muslims start becoming menacing as a reaction to discrimination in France or did the French natives react negatively to Muslim immigrants as a result to Muslim aggression (assuming that Muslims were initially aggressive)?

I mean you may say that France doesn't discriminate but it's kind of hard to believe when you hear stories like this (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/14/AR2006011401103_pf.html) and take into account that North Africans started emigrating to France around the 60s and that Islamic fundamentalism didn't really kick off until the 80s. Back then it was more about nationalism, a Pan-Arabian movement if you will.

I get the impression that Muslims weren't always like this, but then I didn't in France back then so I obviously I can't really say.

Maybe it has also something to do with the geographical proximity with the countries of origin, most of those Muslim immigrants go back over there every year on vacation, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation it doesn't matter, they all go back regularly and whatever adaptation to European culture they may have undergone while in Europe, it's quickly wiped away during their stay in their countries of origin and they come back as if they were fresh new immigrants, making integration nearly impossible.
...
And i wanted to add that integration is no guarantee against Muslim violence anyway, the Muslims who made the attacks in London's subway were fully integrated, educated middle class British citizens and yet they still hated European culture and wanted to kill random Europeans in the name of god.
I think you touched on something really important here. The tendency for Muslims to go back to Muslim countries and return completely different is something not entirely foriegn to me. My Father has always told me that Eritrea never had any schisms between Christians and Muslims and that Muslims considered themselves first as Eritrean, then Muslim. In other words, they were, and are, extremely moderate.
The only exception, I find, would be those who at one point stayed in Saudi Arabia. Gorgeous women who would flaunt their good looks and flirt with any guy suddenly appear docile and in hijabs and stay away from all men within a 10 metre radius. Men distancing themselves away from Christian Eritreans forming their own cliques, or merging with other Muslims cliques. Moreover, and this is what genuinely got to me, they would claim that Eritrea is not part of Africa but rather the Middle East, that they aren't African but rather Arab, and they pledge more of an allegiance with any Muslim (even an Ethiopian!!!) than an Eritrean.
All this right after being in Saudi Arabia.
And it reminds me, isn't that what people said about the first terrorist bombers in London. Friends said that before their parents sent them off to madrassas (sp?) in Pakistan they were extremely friendly and outgoing and were like any other "British lad."

The problem in France is the Laxism!
As I've said previously , when you are in a country, you have Rights and Duties.
One of the main problem here is that people claim for the rights (and believe me , get them) but refuse the duties.
One of this Duty is just to Obey to the Law.

Hmmm...
As Amber has mentioned before with the rampant gang rapes of any women not wearing hijabs something I have heard in the past, it never surprises that these people rape, their monsters and that is what monsters do. Instead, it surprises me that the people who do the rape, and other serious crimes, are rarely ever caught. Like you said nath, France is lax. Why the hell was law never really enforced when it came to governing Muslim immigrants, until now? The impressions I get is that you can pretty much get away with murder if it is done in a French ghetto.

Perhaps this lax law enforcement combined with the emergence of Islamic extremism produced the predicament you're going through now. It would certainly explain why Muslims specifically, and not other immigrants, resist integration so often.
I don't know... what are you're thoughts?


PS: Though it upset me that an obscure country like Eritrea had to be brought into the international spotlight through terrorism it did, however, make me laugh that those bastards failed to kill anybody, refused to kill themselves over it and that their Fathers helped out with their arrests.
Because that is honestly so typically African! :p

nath
10-02-2006, 14:38
Patrick, if you could make a resume of this info , please cause I haven't found it in english.
France-info is a very serious radio of information.
http://www.radiofrance.fr/chaines/france-info/depeches/detail.php?depeche_id=060210122221.1dga153p
And what is said there is no surprising at all. But may be you could resume it too, PowerPuff Grrl, if you live at Canada.

I don't escape your question...will answer to you....may be even a part of the answer is in this article....just I need to go out to appreciate a little my holidays.
See you soon :)

forre
10-02-2006, 14:39
"CNN is not showing the negative caricatures of the likeness of the Prophet Mohammed because the network believes its role is to cover the events surrounding the publication of the cartoons while not unnecessarily adding fuel to the controversy itself."

CNN.com

haku
10-02-2006, 20:47
All this right after being in Saudi Arabia.Saudi Arabia is definitely the main source of the problem, it is the one country which has access to trillions of dollars from the petrol and use them to finance terrorism worldwide but also the 're-education' of Muslims everywhere. Saudi Arabian Islamic leaders have never hidden that they consider that Muslims living in Europe have been 'corrupted' and 'perverted', they have sent radical imams everywhere in the Arab world and Europe to 're-educate' Muslims to a much 'purer' form of Islam that happens to be extremely aggressive toward everything that is not Islamic. They also organize trips for young European Muslims to Saudi Arabia where they are brainwashed and reprogrammed as radical Muslims, and when they come back they are full of hate and intolerance, and imams also trained in Saudi Arabia are there to keep them in that spirit.
As far as i know, European Muslims were actually better integrated 30 to 50 years ago, it's the new generation (3rd or even 4th generation being born in the host country) that is causing trouble, and not because they are mistreated or rejected, but because they have become so radical and intolerant that integration in European society is no longer possible.
The result is people like Pim Fortuyn, Theo van Gogh, and dozens of random citizens in Madrid and London being brutally murdered by intolerant Muslims right on European soil, showing that integration of Muslims in Europe has not only failed but has become a threat to our security.

it surprises me that the people who do the rape, and other serious crimes, are rarely ever caught.Gang rapes to punish a 'bad Muslim girl' (generally just because she was acting a bit 'too European' which is of course extremely bad) are unfortunately not rare (i don't know how gang raping a 14 year old girl makes you a good Muslim but whatever).
However, it's extremely hard for the police to do anything, first of all because generally they don't even know the gang rape happened because the girl is rarely brought to an hospital, and second because even when they hear about it, nobody will press charges, believe or not, none of the families see anything wrong with the gang rape, neither the family of the victim or the families of the boys who raped her, they all blame only the girl and consider that she 'tempted' the boys with her evil female charms and was rightfully punished for acting like a European whore.

Patrick, if you could make a resume of this info , please cause I haven't found it in english.
France-info is a very serious radio of information.Yeah, the article is basically saying (well, was, the link has changed, i don't know why) that the whole cartoon controversy was orchestrated by imams living in Denmark, they took some caricatures and photos (some fake actually) and brought them to some Islamic leaders in the Middle East to create an uproar and anti-European riots. Those imams added much more to the story than there really was to cause even more controversy, for example they told in the Middle East that Europeans were burning Korans in the streets and were making fun of the prophet dressed like pigs, as proof of that they showed in the Middle East a picture of a man wearing fake pig ears and nose and said it was supposed to be Mohammed, but in reality this picture had been taken at a pork festival and the guy was just a mascot or something and it had nothing to do with religion at all (but who knows, maybe even a pork festival in Europe is enough to offend Muslims these days and make them wanna blow us up).

freddie
10-02-2006, 21:57
But are they even true believers? Because even the moderate ones get me thinking.

Anyhoo, that link is hilarious, such a pity that the guy lives in Gaza, If he were American he'd be a gazillionaire. You have to admire that kind of capitalist ingenuity.

At least I HOPE they're some who truly believe. As in... believe and understand Islam the way it's futily been preached: as a religion of peace. What's the point otherwise, seriously? To not believe in moderates who actually have some common sense is the same as proclaiming the whole religion as a gathering of savages who dwell upon thoughts of segregating eachother from other infidels who'll go to hell anyway.

Though I'm fully aware that Europe has all sorts of schisms between countries, I'm sorry but you can't possibly compare Polish and Portuguese immigrants with Non-European ones. Geographically speaking, you live just two doors down from each other on either end and historically believe in the same faith. I know that these immigrants first experienced some mega-hardships when first living in France but eventually their children were able to exceed. See where I'm getting at here? The second generation of immigrants are supposed to exceed, regardless of where they are from. Why isn't this happening with the Muslims, particularly in Europe (excluding the UK, and possibly Ireland)? Why is it happening in other places but in Europe?

Clash of the titans. European tradition and pride versus an entirely different (and to us extremely foreign) tradition of Islam. I think it's all in the way liberalism was fought for in Europe. Liberal ideals had to be enforced and power stripped away from organized religion. It makes an average European inherently suspicious when it comes to a religion so deeply fundamental and uncompromising. Even more so than christianity and we all know most enlightened scholars roll their eyes seeing a narrow-minded, homophobic conservative leading the roman catholic church. Islam is that times hundred and twenty-five. That leads to mutual distrust. Which leads to fear. Which leads to people being unable to coexist in harmony.

Not to mention things get even worse in these trubled times, since there's a huge cultural gap about the West and Islam as it is. Being needlessly provoked further by Bush's mindless chatter of war against terror being the new crusades.

"CNN is not showing the negative caricatures of the likeness of the Prophet Mohammed because the network believes its role is to cover the events surrounding the publication of the cartoons while not unnecessarily adding fuel to the controversy itself."
In other words... they chickened out. :p

"Saudi Arabia is definitely the main source of the problem, it is the one country which has access to trillions of dollars from the petrol and use them to finance terrorism worldwide but also the 're-education' of Muslims everywhere.

So all shall be well as soon as oil-wells dry out. But seriously... I don't consider those imams gathering new recrites as any more harmful than those ridiculous mormon boys from Utah, traveling all over the world, trying to turn people towards the REAL religion. People of sound mind still have their own ideas of what's right and what's wrong. Whether they'd be Muslim, Christian, Jewish or atheist. This shouldn't be the real cause behind all the extremes we've been witnessing. Those Saudi preachers are just exploiting a problem that's been here to begin with.

haku
10-02-2006, 22:20
Oh and it hasn't been mentioned here yet, but French satirical newspaper Charlie Hebdo has released a special "Mohammed" issue this week, LOL, it has sold twice more copies than usual. Charlie Hebdo is an extremey famous newspaper here, a real institution.

They even talk about it on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo) (bottom of the page, 2006 paragraph)…
On the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4695292.stm)…
And here's some scans (http://permanent.nouvelobs.com/medias/20060208.OBS5607.html), i haven't been able to find bigger ones.

And Charlie Hebdo is not "anti Muslim", it's a satirical newspaper that has been around since the 1960s and hits everyone and everything to expose hypocrisy and stupidity wherever it may be.

marina
11-02-2006, 05:21
i'm ashamed to ask , so it's going to be very small and white:D....what exactly is wikipedia? a couple of years back i never heard of this ...and now , in China , i'm not able to open any page of this.

haku
11-02-2006, 05:48
i'm ashamed to ask , so it's going to be very small and white:D....what exactly is wikipedia? a couple of years back i never heard of this ...and now , in China , i'm not able to open any page of this.
Well, wikipedia has a page on… wikipedia, lol, so here's the definition it gives of itself. :D
Wikipedia is a multilingual Web-based free-content encyclopedia wiki service. Wikipedia is written collaboratively by volunteers, allowing most articles to be changed by anyone with access to a web browser. The project began on January 15, 2001, as a complement to the expert-written Nupedia and is now operated by the non-profit Wikimedia Foundation. Wikipedia has more than 3,380,000 articles, including more than 964,000 in the English-language version, and as of February 2006 it has more than 910,000 registered users.I hope that helps. :) It's a shame that you don't have access to it, it's a very useful site and a quick way to find practically anything about anything.

nath
11-02-2006, 07:44
Oh Marina! Do you have a bigger pic of My Cheburaska like that, please?!!!.....
I LOVE him......Is it the new "mascott" of Russia for Winter Games???
Me I want it.......Could you find an adress for I buy it please?...
Spassibo to my favourite "Marina Russian Google" ...hihi.... :D

marina
11-02-2006, 09:54
Amber , thank you very much !:rose:
nath , yes , it's a new white *Cheburashka* for russian team in Torino2006
I saw it this morning in here (http://lenta.ru/news/2006/02/10/open/) and made an avatar for myself. I don't really know where to buy a toy like this ...but i will keep looking :)

freddie
11-02-2006, 14:08
I hope that helps. :) It's a shame that you don't have access to it, it's a very useful site and a quick way to find practically anything about anything.

Yes but you need to remain critical of the contents. It's greatest strenght is at the same time it's greates weakness: anyone can add information, which causes many articles to have some severe errors. I still love it, though. :)

PowerPuff Grrl
11-02-2006, 22:07
As far as i know, European Muslims were actually better integrated 30 to 50 years ago, it's the new generation (3rd or even 4th generation being born in the host country) that is causing trouble, and not because they are mistreated or rejected, but because they have become so radical and intolerant that integration in European society is no longer possible.
The result is people like Pim Fortuyn, Theo van Gogh, and dozens of random citizens in Madrid and London being brutally murdered by intolerant Muslims right on European soil, showing that integration of Muslims in Europe has not only failed but has become a threat to our security.
So shouldn't it be this fanatical Islam that you should be frustrated at and not just Muslim immigrants. Of course, I don't want to tell you what you should be angry at but it seems that you feelings kind of displaced. Like, because of these people you feel that integration of anyone anywhere can never work.

Or at least that is what I get from you.

I don't escape your question...will answer to you....may be even a part of the answer is in this article....just I need to go out to appreciate a little my holidays

Take your time. Enjoy the weekend.:cool:
And thank you, nath, Amber and freddie for taking the time to inform me about this, I definitely got a clearer picture from all of what guys have told me.

At least I HOPE they're some who truly believe. As in... believe and understand Islam the way it's futily been preached: as a religion of peace. What's the point otherwise, seriously? To not believe in moderates who actually have some common sense is the same as proclaiming the whole religion as a gathering of savages who dwell upon thoughts of segregating eachother from other infidels who'll go to hell anyway.
It isn't so much that I don't even trust the moderates or the truly faithful. But the religion itself, the way it is being followed has me thinking. There's this undercurrent of Arab imperialism at work, I find.
They say that Allah is all encompassing and infinite, mighty and powerful; Allah is everywhere. So why pray specifically towards Mecca? Why can't the Qur'an be translated in other languages without having its meaning watered down? If Allah's words are universal then surely it can stand translation. Why do Muslim's have to dress like an Arab in order to devout Muslims? Why are mosques design after Arab architecture? Why do devout Muslims call themselves Arabs when they aren't? Why do Arab Muslims often look down on non-Arab Muslims? Why is pre-Islamic history in Muslim countries not discussed among the people of that country? Just because Arabs don't consider anything worth mentioning in their pre-Islamic history doesn't mean they have to enforce it to other nationalities. Why is Arab affairs always the primary concern of all Muslims but non-Arab Muslim affairs get no attention among Muslims?

etc, etc, etc...

I'm not saying that this is what Islam is all about, just that this is what Islam has become in my eyes. As I stated earlier Islam used to be a religion of intellect, devout Muslims of the past knew that there was knowledge outside of the Qur'an, they sought after it and preserved it for further use. Even the Dome of the Rock in Israel was originally designed by Orthodox Christians. Now, that kind of mentality is pretty much non-existent. Muslim extremists would never admit that there are valuable things to learn outside of their religion.

In other words... they chickened out.
The entire Western hemisphere chickened out. Fucking cowards. Since when do we listen, let down bend over for a bunch of maniacs burning down embassies. We sent a bad message to those fanatics; "burn down an embassy and we'll do whatever you tell us to do."

nath
11-02-2006, 22:34
PowerPuff Grrl, Just some little words to tell you that I have no negative view about the Coran, about this Religion "at the origine" (even if the religion doesn't evolve with the society..but it's the case and the limitation of all the religions).
I just have a problem with those who disturn the Coran for personnal, political and powerful reasons.

If you know a lot of Muslims, just check the number of those who know really know their own religion....and if yourself know it enough , you will be surprised by the huge number of people who, indeed, know so little about their religion.....that's where is the danger.

For example, the sourates, they are know them "by heart"(as Christians when the offices were said in Latin langage)..i don't know how to say that in english....they are learnt with the sounds....some people know the general meaning but very few could translate them word by word....
Indeed , not all Arabic people know the "Litteral Arab Langage"...so not so much have a direct access to those texts....

So it's so easy to deform them and to orientate people into a direction which is , indeed, very far from the original text which is a message of Tolerance.

I think it's sad. This manipulation is sad. I'm against this manipulation and its effects. That's all. :(l

rosh
12-02-2006, 10:40
i think nath is trying to say the surats [chapters of the quran] are memorised by heart by lots of muslims who will learn the exact inflection of every letter tied to every word, but dont even know what they are memorising. just as an aside, people who memorise the quran are termed haafiz [hufaaz is the plural] and it literally means "protector", since someone who memorises all of the quran is thought to be protecting it in this way as well.

xmad
12-02-2006, 11:59
Why can't the Qur'an be translated in other languages without having its meaning watered down?
No,it can be translated.I saw it in persian.The original one and its translation both of them were together.I read afew pages of that and it was nice.
Why do devout Muslims call themselves Arabs when they aren't?
No,they dont.I've seen afew of them in Iran and they never said we are Arabs.

PowerPuff Grrl
13-02-2006, 05:35
PowerPuff Grrl, Just some little words to tell you that I have no negative view about the Coran, about this Religion "at the origine" (even if the religion doesn't evolve with the society..but it's the case and the limitation of all the religions).
I just have a problem with those who disturn the Coran for personnal, political and powerful reasons.
I know. I'm just stating my inquiries about Islam, of course, not the rilgion itself but how it is being followed today.

No,it can be translated.I saw it in persian.The original one and its translation both of them were together.I read afew pages of that and it was nice.
Yeah, there are translations of it, I've seen a couple of English ones in my library. However, those don't have the religious approval of most Imams and those are meant mainly for non-Muslims with a keen interest in Islam. People who are sent off to learn Islam in medrassas (sp?) learn it in the "original" Arab text and they recite it, as rosh stated, without knowing what they are reading/saying.

just as an aside, people who memorise the quran are termed haafiz [hufaaz is the plural] and it literally means "protector", since someone who memorises all of the quran is thought to be protecting it in this way as well.
Protecting from what though? Other cultures?
I know that the intention is to prevent the loss of meaning when it comes down to translation but we're talking about the word of God here. God is universal, or at least that is what I was taught. So it doesn't make sense that God's words are limited of the confines of the Arabic language. This only leads to Islamic scholars refusing to properly translate the texts for all to see. Which means that people have to conform to the Arabic language/culture in order to be fully Muslim.

No,they dont.I've seen afew of them in Iran and they never said we are Arabs.
And although Persians are the exception to the rule of claiming Arab heritage (your country's nationalism is far too strong, some would even slit your throat if you mistaken them for Arabs) a lot of Muslims claim to being Arab. Case in point; the genocide in Sudan is often reported as being between the North Eastern "Arabs" and Western Sudanese. The North Easterners aren't Arab. They are black people who very much resemble Ethiopians/Eritreans/Djiboutians/Somalians. Somalians often tell me that East Africans (where a lot of Muslims are) are descendants of Arabs. Pakistanis also often say they are Arab, though admittedly there are quite a few with some sense to say otherwise. The Nation of Islam (that is, Black American Muslims) say that their true religion before slavery was Islam and that Arabic is the "Latin" of Africa.

And so on and so forth...

rosh
13-02-2006, 12:18
Protecting from what though? Other cultures?
I know that the intention is to prevent the loss of meaning when it comes down to translation but we're talking about the word of God here. God is universal, or at least that is what I was taught. So it doesn't make sense that God's words are limited of the confines of the Arabic language. This only leads to Islamic scholars refusing to properly translate the texts for all to see. Which means that people have to conform to the Arabic language/culture in order to be fully Muslim.



to answer more fully, protecting it from being changed. through the ages, muslims believe that the word of god has been distorted and changed by people to suit their own ends. im not saying people dont do that with the translations of the quran or when they extract a sentence from a paragraph and twist it to mean what they want it to mean though because ive seen this before and debated it with other people before as well. however the point here is that the quran is still in its original arabic form, with nothing changed. the implied meaning and translations and commentaries will vary from scholar to scholar, but the actual arabic sentences and paragraphs and chapters are as they have always been for the past +1400 odd years.

there is no block on translating the arabic text to any other language though. im not sure where this misconception has crept in. in fact muslims are encouraged to pray in whatever language they are most comfortable with since to pray in a language you do not understand is quite meaningless. and the five daily prayers consist in part of reciting parts of the quran. whether you recite these in arabic, urdu, faarsi, english, afrikaans, swahili etc etc it doesnt matter, as long as you understand what youre saying.

PowerPuff Grrl
16-02-2006, 08:57
Thank you for answering my questions, I genuinely appreciate it.
You're right, there may not be a official ban on translating the Quran or anything, however my impression is that the translations of the Quran do not fare as well as a Quran written in Arabic because something may have been lost in translation or changed or whatever. So like the Arab version of the Quran will always be superior to all else.

It isn't that I think that Islam is all about Arabic and Arab culture, it is just that Muslims I have encountered have always reinforced this notion. I have never heard the Somali version of "Salam Aleikim" (sp?), or the Udru, the Malaysian, the Persian, Tigrinia versian, etc... It is always said it Arabic, same with "Allah wu Akbar" (I really suck with spelling). As well as this yearning to learn Arabic, like it is a necessity.

Actual Arab Muslims I have met frequently say that Arabs are the true Muslims and everybody else are just derivatives, especially true when considering how non-Arab Mulsims are treated like shit in the Middle East. Of course, not all think this way but they were too many incidents like this that it is really hard to dismiss it.

xmad
16-02-2006, 09:35
It isn't that I think that Islam is all about Arabic and Arab culture, it is just that Muslims I have encountered have always reinforced this notion. I have never heard the Somali version of "Salam Aleikim" (sp?), or the Udru, the Malaysian, the Persian, Tigrinia versian, etc... It is always said it Arabic, same with "Allah wu Akbar" (I really suck with spelling). As well as this yearning to learn Arabic, like it is a necessity.
Sorry but I cannot understand your point.
Those 2 words that you mentioned are 2 Arabic words."Salam Aleikim" means Hello
"Allah u Akbar" "Allah=God" and Akbar=Big/huge

PowerPuff Grrl
17-02-2006, 23:20
I know those are Arabic. The fact that these words aren't said in Ebo, Somali or Urdu, etc. is what gets me. I have never heard a non-Arab devout Muslim greet another person of the same nationality in their own language.

This in itself is pretty harmless, but I think it is an example of how Arabic is becoming synonymous with Islam.

In other news, $25,000 bounty put on head of Danish cartoonist (http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=52&story_id=27757&name=%2425%2C000+bounty+put+on+head+of+Danish+cart oonist):

The reward "will encourage people to kill the blasphemer," Qureshi said, adding that he hoped that many other people would come up with more such announcements.

"If they can put a bounty on Muslims, why not we. He (the cartoonist) is a terrorist for us," the cleric said.

President of Goldsmiths' association, Israr Ahmed Khan, said his organization would fix the amount on Saturday. "We will definitely announce (the reward money) and it will be in dollars," Khan said.

"It will be in dollars," I like that. Damn the West all you can but in the end its their shit that you need.

haku
18-02-2006, 02:15
So shouldn't it be this fanatical Islam that you should be frustrated at and not just Muslim immigrants. Of course, I don't want to tell you what you should be angry at but it seems that you feelings kind of displaced. Like, because of these people you feel that integration of anyone anywhere can never work.You have to put that in a more general opinion that i have on the subject anyway, basically i want external EU borders to be closed to immigration for the time being.
For the first time in their history, European nations are working on continental unification *peacefully*, several attempts to unify the continent were made in the past, but each time it was through war, this time it's through peaceful negotiations.
However, the construction of the EU is a difficult and slow process, the abolition of EU internal borders and the creation of an EU citizenship has caused tremendous changes in member states, people from any member state can work and live freely in any other member state, companies from any member state can offer their products and services in any other member state and compete with each other.
Those changes have put a lot of stress on European populations, they have to get used to seeing people and companies move freely within the EU as if it was one big country instead of having closed national borders like 50 years ago, it's a big change.
And adding external immigration and unregulated globalization to an already stressful process of continental unification (which is a situation unique to Europe) is simply too much, many people are getting anxious, scared, and that kind of feelings never lead to anything good, signs of resurgence of nationalism are clearly visible.
For me the construction of the EU must be the priority for the decades to come, which is why i am in favor of closing external EU borders until the populations of member states get used to the new landscape they live in. There is a limit to the amount of changes people can take at a time.

And i am not at all convinced that multicultural societies can work anyway, i think it's possible when those multiple cultures are relatively close, like various European cultures, or various Chinese cultures, but mixing cultures from totally different civilizations does not really work in my opinion, the gap between 2 civilizations is just too big. And i'm not even sure that multicultural societies are something to aim for, i see nothing wrong with China keeping its Chinese cultures or Europe keeping its European cultures.

The entire Western hemisphere chickened out. Fucking cowards. Since when do we listen, let down bend over for a bunch of maniacs burning down embassies. We sent a bad message to those fanatics; "burn down an embassy and we'll do whatever you tell us to do."The situation is similar to the 1930s in Europe, leaders of democratic nations can feel the wind of war, they can feel it coming, they are doing what they can to delay the inevitable as long as possible but they know that they are only buying time because whatever you do, you can't achieve peace with people who want war… It's just as useless to talk peace with Muslim leaders now as it was with leaders of the Axis in the 1930s, because they actually want war and will seize any excuse to cause it.

In other news, $25,000 bounty put on head of Danish cartoonist:That was to be expected, Muslims won't be satisfied until they see some more Europeans decapitated, a lot more… crazy barbarians.

rosh
18-02-2006, 10:31
That was to be expected, Muslims won't be satisfied until they see some more Europeans decapitated, a lot more… crazy barbarians.

thanks

we're not all barbarians you know :(

freddie
19-02-2006, 13:13
It isn't so much that I don't even trust the moderates or the truly faithful. But the religion itself, the way it is being followed has me thinking. There's this undercurrent of Arab imperialism at work, I find.
They say that Allah is all encompassing and infinite, mighty and powerful; Allah is everywhere. So why pray specifically towards Mecca? Why can't the Qur'an be translated in other languages without having its meaning watered down? If Allah's words are universal then surely it can stand translation. Why do Muslim's have to dress like an Arab in order to devout Muslims? Why are mosques design after Arab architecture? Why do devout Muslims call themselves Arabs when they aren't? Why do Arab Muslims often look down on non-Arab Muslims? Why is pre-Islamic history in Muslim countries not discussed among the people of that country? Just because Arabs don't consider anything worth mentioning in their pre-Islamic history doesn't mean they have to enforce it to other nationalities. Why is Arab affairs always the primary concern of all Muslims but non-Arab Muslim affairs get no attention among Muslims?

That's a good point. If christianity was at that stage right now, a mass would still be conducted in latin or better yet - hebrew. One of the bases for success of christianity was the bible being translated into vulgaric latin dialects and later in other indo-european langauges. Christianity should also be wrapped around that basic idea of "the chosen people" getting their holy land - after all that's exactly what Jesus was fighting for as a jewish rabi - his words were aimed at the suffering of ancient jewish people, rather than people in general. Islam really does have it's roots in Arabic cultures and for now it still seems to (mostly) be an all-arab-affair... I have no idea how Persians in Iran or Indonesian mulsims to name a few can take that so lightly. It's almost like another culture being impossed on them and they take it with open arms.

And i am not at all convinced that multicultural societies can work anyway, i think it's possible when those multiple cultures are relatively close, like various European cultures, or various Chinese cultures, but mixing cultures from totally different civilizations does not really work in my opinion, the gap between 2 civilizations is just too big. And i'm not even sure that multicultural societies are something to aim for, i see nothing wrong with China keeping its Chinese cultures or Europe keeping its European cultures.

I think places like Canada are a proof enough how different cultures can blend together well and coexist peacefully given the right conditions.

That was to be expected, Muslims won't be satisfied until they see some more Europeans decapitated, a lot more… crazy barbarians.

Trust me... every culture has the potential to be like that given the right conditions. Look at Scandianvians. We all see them as these bland, peaceful, yet somehwhat cold and boring people these daysy eventhough they were fearless Wikings centuries back. Wikings started out as Pirates and they were just as vicious as their Mediteranean pirate peers. And lets not forget what happened to the good people of Germany in WW2.

haku
19-02-2006, 18:07
I think places like Canada are a proof enough how different cultures can blend together well and coexist peacefully given the right conditions.Possibly, but Canada is 10 million km2 with only 30 million people and an history that doesn't go very far back, the EU is 4 million km2 with 460 million people and 3000 years of history behind them, we'll see how Canada is doing when it has 1 billion inhabitants.
And coexistence has not been perfect in Canada either anyway, French Canadians have always been oppressed, thousands of French Canadian families were even deported at some point (see Acadian history), families were separated by force, their children taken away from their parents and placed in English-speaking families to be submitted to forced assimilation. Not that peaceful.

freddie
20-02-2006, 00:59
From what I know french canadian families have it pretty well in Canada now - figuring from the fact french is considered as a 2nd langauge eventhough the majority population aren't of french descendancy.

And regarding the other point... most of Canada's population is bunched up in major cities though - those 10 million km2 can be wastly empty except for major urban centers which are just as populated as any region in Europe is. And the fact they don't have any history and we do should work to OUR advantage rather then theirs - there were seeds & ideas of democracy on our continent when Canada or the USA didn't even exist yet. We should be masters at tolerance and coexistance by now.

PowerPuff Grrl
20-02-2006, 02:31
I think freddie was referring to the--so far--very smooth integration of peoples from Eastern and Western cultures. To point to the English/French divide would only refer to a last remnant of European rivalry which has nothing to do with the supposed East/West divide.

Considering that 50% of the pop. in Toronto are first generation immigrants born outside of the N. America and Europe its pretty impressive that so far, in the twenty years that they ahve been here nothing has happened and it doesn't seem like anything will happen anytime soon. It is honestly hard to find a racially homogeneous couple in places like Toronto, Montreal (even moreso, imho), and Vancouver. So I think we are doing ok, but you're right. Canada in itself is pretty young and we'll never find 1 billion people willing to live in these insane weather conditions, however I don't think its fair to dismiss Canada's example by pointing these things out.

ETA: Woops, at bit too late there, sorry.

freddie
21-02-2006, 11:58
I think freddie was referring to the--so far--very smooth integration of peoples from Eastern and Western cultures. To point to the English/French divide would only refer to a last remnant of European rivalry which has nothing to do with the supposed East/West divide.

Yarr. This is true. The East/West divide is important here since we're talking about the so called clash of the civilizations. French and british cultures are relatively similar compared to semitic or oriental ones. The divide between the french and british however was caused by exactly the same style of thinking that Amber has, but pointed towards british (or french in the case of the british), rather than some even more distant culture.

haku
16-10-2006, 05:15
The headscarf battle continues, Tunisia is launching a campaign against the Islamic veil (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6053380.stm). Headscarfs have already been prohibited in Tunisia (in schools and public places) for many years, but religious extremists are pushing more and more women to disobey the law so the Tunisian government has decided to enforce the ban more actively.

The move is welcomed by France where religious signs are also prohibited in schools and public places, and since there are many French people of Tunisian origin, it's helpful to have the same ban enforced on both sides of the Mediterranean.

QueenBee
16-10-2006, 05:20
The move is welcomed by France where religious signs are also prohibited in schools and public places
Do you mean that people aren't allowed to wear headscarves in schools? (Just checking, because here in Sweden such a ban would be completely unacceptable)

haku
16-10-2006, 05:36
Do you mean that people aren't allowed to wear headscarves in schools?Absolutely, that's totally prohibited, and it's not just headscarves, all religious signs (Muslim veil, Christian crosses, stars of David, etc) are strictly prohibited in schools and public buildings.

It's not new, it's been like that since the French revolution of 1789, the French republic is strictly secular, religion is considered a private matter and is not allowed in the public sphere.
This short article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3325285.stm) explains the French secular principles pretty well.

QueenBee
16-10-2006, 05:48
haku, thank you for the article, I had no idea... :lalala: Shows you how much I know about the world. :p

haku
26-10-2006, 21:33
Australia's top Muslim cleric is causing some outrage after saying that women are to be blamed for rape. His take on women and rape:
If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside... and the cats come and eat it... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat?

The uncovered meat is the problem.

If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred.
BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6086374.stm)

haku
13-11-2006, 01:33
Elton John calls for a ban of organized religions (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6140710.stm). Now that's a good idea, go Elton!

Rachel
13-11-2006, 01:36
Elton John calls for a ban of organized religions (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6140710.stm). Now that's a good idea, go Elton!I saw a link for that earlier on the BBC news website when I was at Hayley's. Best thing I've read in weeks :laugh:

haku
06-12-2006, 01:08
Fully veiled woman (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6210324.stm) (Taliban style) to give Christmas speech on Channel 4… WTF?

Welcome to the 21st century United… Kaliphate? :rolleyes:

Rachel
06-12-2006, 01:28
WTF. This is political correctness gone MAD.

This fucking country is screwed up.

QueenOfLesbania
06-12-2006, 16:16
strikes me as being rather odd to be honest.. if you don't want people to see your face, don't go on tv... there's always radio ;) screw pc

freddie
07-12-2006, 01:50
Meh. I always considered women's veils as opressive, but hey... they (muslim women) want it as well, so I can't really argue about habits of a culture I don't really know. Other than that I'm all for cultural diversity and celebration of world's heritage and if they want to express it this way, more power to them. If we (westerners) condemn acts like this we'll be no less intolerant than muslim extremists are. We are the ones that need to teach Islam about a certain level of tolerance which they are more often than not. If we just go: "You're intolerant towards our culture so we'll be intolerant towards yours back..." we'll do nothing but spin around a vicious cycle.

haku
07-12-2006, 18:48
Yeah, but it's a case of tollerating intolerance, what's the point of fighting Talibans in Afghanistan if it's to let them push their extremist agenda in Europe itself. We do have to tollerate intolerance within certain limits but not to that extent. Those fully vieled women are basically asking for the right to be oppressed, it's like a group of black people asking for the right to be enslaved or a group of young children asking for the right to have sex with adults.
Western societies have decided a long time ago that even when people are "concenting", there are limits to what can be done to them, we do not allow human sacrifice, we do not allow enslavement, we do not allow assisted suicide, we do not allow polygamy, we do not allow female circumcision or any other kind of body mutilation (but we do allow male circumcision, which is a shame and should be illegal as well), the list goes on, and the full viel should be in that list.
Most importantly, those fully vieled women are making a joke out of the women's rights movement which hasn't achieved complete equality yet even in Europe. Only 90 years ago, the sufragettes were fighting for the right of women to vote, some of those women died in that fight, and they must be rolling in their graves when they see the damage those muslim women are doing to the cause of gender equality.
We can't allow people to bring back medieval obscurantism in our societies, whether it's in the name of "religion" or "tradition", and if those muslim women really can't live according to the rules of western societies, there are a number of islamic countries where they can immigrate and live happily under the sharia, but the sharia has no place in Europe.

freddie
08-12-2006, 04:30
We can't allow people to bring back medieval obscurantism in our societies, whether it's in the name of "religion" or "tradition", and if those muslim women really can't live according to the rules of western societies, there are a number of islamic countries where they can immigrate and live happily under the sharia, but the sharia has no place in Europe.
That's a but extreme, isn't it? In that case we should simply burn down all the mosks and buddhist temples all over Europe and maybe even churches while we're at it, since we can't alow "medievil obscurantism in our society".

I mean I understand your point up to an extent. I'm an agnostic and everything concerning religion seems terribly amusing (almost ridiculous) in my eyes. But I only tend to look at it as tradition. Liek Oktoberfest is a tradition and no one looks down on those Germans for getting pissed out of their minds every year. Like all traditions... I try to accept it. Supposedly that's what our liberal society is supposed to be good at.

And from what I've heard those muslim women who wear it don't consider themselves as being "oppressed". I'm sure that has something to do with how they were brought up, but still... who are we to tell them their ways are wrong. One consequence of running an open-minded secular society is also to be tolerant of religions and their practices.

freddie
06-01-2007, 19:42
The difference between extremist islam and modern civilization (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sL54rHPwqA)

dradeel
06-01-2007, 20:55
In that case we should simply burn down all [...] churches while we're at it
That has been known to happen in Norway. There actually were a wave of such happenings in the mid 90s. I dunno how many churches and chapels that were burnt down. There were many... and there were even arsons that failed where churches just got lightly damaged.

But I'm not a fan of those things... even tho I'm taking part in the "society" who's members were guilty for these action back then. I'll use words and a pen instead of a lighter and gasoline. :)

The difference between extremist islam and modern civilization
I really liked listening to this. It examplifies a good difference between extremist muslims and western civilization. :) But I think it's important to say that far from all muslims are like the ones she mentions tho...

Sabeena
07-01-2007, 17:23
my dad's a muslim, so his side of the family is really islamic, my mum converted into Islam, but she was originally Christian and so her side of the family are all christians.
I had this loooong lecture with my dad the other day about this topic, it lasted 3 hours!!!

Rachel, not in general, but many people from these countries have been interview by Swedish TV (and aired here, obviously) and they go against their countries. Strangely enough there were many women who said this, which really surprised me as they are usually not ... you know, worth that much. Now they're getting educations and trying to change their countries (HAHAHAHA good luck).
Thats kind of what im trying to do but not really, i would LIKE to change the way in which Muslims are portrayed by te media, and how women are viewed in the muslim society.

PowerPuff Grrl
08-01-2007, 16:35
Thats kind of what im trying to do but not really, i would LIKE to change the way in which Muslims are portrayed by te media, and how women are viewed in the muslim society.
Humour has always been a good way to start. (http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/tv/la-et-canadatv3jan03,1,680957.story?coll=la-headlines-entnews&track=crosspromo)

rosh
09-01-2007, 10:50
Humour has always been a good way to start. (http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/tv/la-et-canadatv3jan03,1,680957.story?coll=la-headlines-entnews&track=crosspromo)


i would actually love to see this show. amongst my friends who are also muslim we're always ripping off muslim culture and tradition and well, we think its funny :)

haku
05-04-2007, 00:14
Priest rapes and kills Polish student in church and hides her body under the floor (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6525893.stm)

Joan of Arc "relics" are Egyptian mummy and cat remains (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6527105.stm)

The great Roman Catholic Church and its scams. :lol:

QueenBee
05-04-2007, 00:26
Priests really creep me out for some reason. They just seem so calm and pure, I really doubt that a human being can be perfectly "flawless", I always expect them to be hiding horrible secrets :bum: Either that or I expect them to just go mad one day after years of hiding their lust and anger

Talyubittu
05-04-2007, 03:32
Priests really creep me out for some reason. They just seem so calm and pure, I really doubt that a human being can be perfectly "flawless", I always expect them to be hiding horrible secrets :bum: Either that or I expect them to just go mad one day after years of hiding their lust and anger


Or have an obesession with 10 year old boys, can't forget that!

:D