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forre
02-12-2005, 21:05
Life goes on

Cardiologist Pim van Lommel did a monumental study of near-death experiences—which raises fascinating questions about life after death, DNA, the collective unconscious, and everyone’s karma.

When the The Lancet published his study of near-death experiences, Dutch cardiologist Pim van Lommel couldn’t have known it would make him into one of the world’s most-talked-about scientists. It seems everyone wants to know about the man who managed to get his study of this controversial topic published in one of the leading journals of medical research. Yet it’s not really surprising that its publication in 2001 created a stir. Never before had such a systematic study been conducted into the experiences of people who were declared dead and then came back to life. And never before have we seen such a clear illustration of how these people’s stories could affect our way of thinking about life and death.

Van Lommel, 63, isn’t one to seek name and fame. On this lovely summer day in his garden near the Dutch city of Arnhem, he displays more interest in what’s going on at Ode magazine than in his own story. That same deep curiosity was at work 35 years ago when Van Lommel, working as a physician’s assistant in a hospital, listened intently to a patient talk about her near-death experience. He was immediately fascinated. But it wasn’t until years later, as he read the book Return from Tomorrow in which the American doctor George Ritchie describes his own near-death experience in detail, that Van Lommel wondered if there were many other people who had undergone similar experiences.

Van Lommel decided from then on to ask all his patients whether they remembered anything that had happened during their cardiac arrests. “The answer was usually ‘no’ but sometimes ‘why?’ When I heard the latter, I extended the office visit.” Over two years he heard stories from 12 patients and his scientific curiosity was piqued. Those stories were the beginning of a years-long study.

"I was looking down at my own body from up above and saw doctors and nurses fighting for my life. I could hear what they were saying. Then I got a warm feeling and I was in a tunnel. At the end of that tunnel was a bright, warm, white, vibrating light. It was beautiful. It gave me a feeling of peace and confidence. I floated towards it. The warm feeling became stronger and stronger. I felt at home, loved, nearly ecstatic. I saw my life flash before me. Suddenly I felt the pain of the accident once again and shot back into my body. I was furious that the doctors had brought me back.!

Just about every description of a near-death experience is this beautiful. People feel connected and supported. They grasp how the universe works. They experience unconditional love. They feel free of the pressing concerns of earthly existence. Who wouldn’t want such an experience? “It sounds fantastic, doesn’t it?” Van Lommel laughs. “But it’s not always easy to deal with. When people come back, they often have the feeling they’re being imprisoned. And it can take years before they are able or have the courage to integrate the insights they’ve gained into their everyday life.”

Still, a majority of people who have had a near-death experience describe it as magnificent and say it enriched their lives. Van Lommel explains, “The most important thing people are left with is that they are no longer afraid of death. This is because they have experienced that their consciousness lives on, that there is continuity. Their life and their identity don’t end when the body dies. They simply have the feeling they’re taking off their coat.”

That may sound like it’s coming from someone who’s spent a little too much time hanging around New Age bookstores. But from what Van Lommel has seen, near-death experiences are not at all limited to members of the “spiritual” community. They are just as prevalent among people who were extremely skeptical about the topic beforehand.

"I became “detached” from the body and hovered within and around it. It was possible to see the surrounding bedroom and my body even though my eyes were closed. I was suddenly able to ‘think’ hundreds or thousands of times faster—and with greater clarity—than is humanly normal or possible. At this point I realized and accepted that I had died. It was time to move on. It was a feeling of total peace—completely without fear or pain, and didn’t involve any emotions at all."

The most remarkable thing, Van Lommel says, is that his patients have such consciousness-expanding experiences while their brains register no activity. But that’s impossible, according to the current level of medical knowledge. Because most scientists believe that consciousness occurs in the brain, this creates a mystery: How can people experience consciousness while they are unconscious during a cardiac arrest (a clinical death)?

After all those years of intensive study, Van Lommel still speaks with reverence about the miracle of the near-death experience. “At that moment these people are not only conscious; their consciousness is even more expansive than ever. They can think extremely clearly, have memories going back to their earliest childhood and experience an intense connection with everything and everyone around them. And yet the brain shows no activity at all!”

This has raised a number of large questions for Van Lommel: “What is consciousness and where is it located? What is my identity? Who is doing the observing when I see my body down there on the operating table? What is life? What is death?”

"The body I observed laying in bed was mine, but I knew it wasn’t time to leave. My time on earth wasn’t up yet; there was still a purpose."

In order to convince his colleagues of the validity of these new insights, Van Lommel first had to demonstrate that this expansion of the consciousness occurred, in fact, during the period of brain death. It was not difficult to prove. Patients were often able to describe precisely what had happened during their cardiac arrest. They knew, for example, exactly where the nurse put their dentures or what doctors and family members had said. How would someone whose brain wasn’t active know these things?

Nevertheless, some scientists continue to assert that these experiences must happen at a time when there is still some brain function going on. Van Lommel is crystal clear in his response: “When the heart stops beating, blood flow stops within a second. Then, 6.5 seconds later, EEG activity starts to change due to the shortage of oxygen. After 15 seconds there is a straight, flat line and the electrical activity in the cerebral cortex has disappeared completely. We cannot measure the brain stem, but testing on animals has demonstrated that activity has ceased there as well. Moreover, you can prove that the brain stem is no longer functioning because it regulates our basic reflexes, such as the pupil response and swallowing reflex, which no longer respond. So you can easily stick a tube down someone’s throat. The respiratory centre also shuts down. If the individual is not reanimated within five to 10 minutes, their brain cells are irreversibly damaged.” He is aware that his findings on consciousness fly in face of orthodox scientific thinking. It is remarkable that an authoritative science journal like The Lancet was willing to publish his article. But it wasn’t without a struggle. Van Lommel recalls with a smile, “It took months before I got the green light. And then they suddenly wanted it finished, within a day.”

Van Lommel’s work raises profound questions about what “death” actually means: “Up to now, ‘death’ simply meant the end of consciousness, of identity, of life,” he notes. But his study topples that concept, along with the prevailing medical myths about who has near-death experiences. “In the past, these experiences were attributed to physiological, psychological, pharmacological or religious reasons. So to a shortage of oxygen, the release of endorphins, receptor blockages, fear of death, hallucinations, religious expectations or a combination of all these factors. But our research indicates that none of these factors determine whether or not someone has a near-death experience.”

"This experience is a blessing for me, for now I know for sure that body and soul are separated, and that there is life after death. It has convinced me that consciousness lives on beyond the grave. Death is not death, but another form of life."

Van Lommel contends that the brain does not produce consciousness or store memories. He points out that American computer science expert Simon Berkovich and Dutch brain researcher Herms Romijn, working independently of one another, came to the same conclusion: that it is impossible for the brain to store everything you think and experience in your life. This would require a processing speed of 1024 bits per second. Simply watching an hour of television would already be too much for our brains. “If you want to store that amount of information—along with the associative thoughts produced—your brain would be pretty much full,” Van Lommel says. “Anatomically and functionally, it is simply impossible for the brain to have this level of speed.”

So this would mean that the brain is actually a receiver and transmitter of information. “You could compare the brain to a television set that tunes into specific electromagnetic waves and converts them into image and sound.

“Our waking consciousness, the consciousness we have during our daily activities,” Van Lommel continues, “reduces all the information there is to a single truth that we experience as ‘reality.’ During near-death experiences, however, people are not limited to their bodies or their waking consciousness, which means they experience many more realities.”

This explains why people who have a near-death experience sometimes have great difficulty functioning in their daily lives afterwards. They retain the sensitivity that enables them to tune into different channels simultaneously, making a cocktail party or bus ride an overwhelming experience as all the information from people around them comes in on all channels.

"I saw a man who looked at me lovingly, but whom I did not know. At my mother’s deathbed, she confessed to me that I had been borne out of an extramarital relationship, my father being a Jewish man who had been deported and killed during the Second World War, and my mother showed me his picture. The unknown man that I had seen years before during my near-death experience turned out to be my biological father."

According to Van Lommel, near-death experiences can only be explained if you assume that consciousness, along with all our experiences and memories, is located outside the brain. When asked where that consciousness is located, Van Lommel can only speculate. “I suspect there is a dimension where this information is stored—a kind of collective consciousness we tune into to gain access to our identity and our memories.”

By means of this collective information field, we are not only connected to our own information, but also that of others and even the information from the past and future. “There are people who see the future during a near-death experience,” Van Lommel says. “For example, there was a man who saw his future family. Years later, he found himself in a situation he had already seen during his near-death experience. I suspect this is also the way déjà vu works.” According to Van Lommel’s research, during a near-death experience, people can also make contact with the dead, even if they don’t know them.

But how does the brain “know” what information to tune into? How can someone tune into his own memories and not those of other people? Van Lommel’s answer is surprisingly short and simple: “DNA. And primarily the so-called ‘junk DNA,’ which accounts for around 95 percent of the total, whose function we don’t understand.” He suspects that the DNA, unique to every person and every organism, works like a receptor mechanism, a kind of simultaneous translator between the information fields and the organism.

The idea that DNA works as a receptor mechanism to attune people to their specific consciousness fields sheds new light on the discussion of organ transplantation. Imagine you get a new heart. The DNA of that heart will gear itself to the consciousness field of the donor, not the recipient. Does this mean you suddenly get different information? Yes, Van Lommel says: “There are stories of people who developed radically different desires and lifestyles after an organ transplant. For example, there’s a story of a ballet dancer who suddenly wanted to drive a motorcycle and eat junk food.”

I perceived not only what I had done, but even in what way it had influenced others.

The cliché is true: People see their lives flash before them at the time of death. And people gain insight into the consequences of their actions. They might see themselves as at 4 years old, taking away their sister’s toys, and feel her pain. Van Lommel comments, “At that moment it’s as if you have the thoughts of someone else inside you. You are given insight into the impact of your thoughts, words and deeds on yourself and others. So it appears that every thought we have is a form of energy that continues to exist forever.”

People who have experienced such a “life review” say it’s not so much about what you do as the intention behind it. “It is extremely intense to experience that everything that goes around comes around.” Van Lommel leans forward to be sure his words come across. “No one avoids the consequences of their thoughts. That’s very confrontational. Some people discover there’s something they can never put right. Others come back and immediately start calling people to apologize for something they did 20 years ago.”

So is there a Last Judgment after all? Van Lommel is clear: “Absolutely not. No one is judged. It’s an insight experience. Most people go through this flashback in the presence of a being made of light. That being is entirely loving, absolutely accepting, without judgment, but has complete insight. The flashback changes people’s understanding of life. They adopt other values. They feel they are one with nature and the planet. There is no longer any difference between themselves and others. It’s not about power, appearance, nice cars, clothes, a young body. It’s about completely different things: love for yourself, for nature, for your fellow human beings. The message is as old as time, but now they’ve experienced it themselves and they have to live by it.”

Then, after a short silence, he says, thoughtfully: “It’s almost scary to realize that every thought has a consequence. If you let that sink in…every thought we have, positive or negative, has an impact on us, each other and nature.”

Do you have to nearly die to learn these life lessons? No, says Van Lommel, who has never had a near-death experience himself. Thanks to his research, he learned so many valuable lessons that he decided to abandon his career in cardiology in 1992 and dedicate himself fully to further research, publishing and lecturing on the subject of near-death experiences. He founded the Merkawah Foundation in the Hague, the Dutch department for the International Association for Near-Death Studies, which offers information and guidance to Dutch people who have had near-death experiences.

“Working with it and being open to it have changed my life,” Van Lommel says. “I now see that everything stems from consciousness. I better understand that you create your own reality based on the consciousness you have and the intention from which you live. I understand that consciousness is the basis of life, and that life is principally about compassion, empathy and love.”


The italicized segments of this article were taken from interviews Pim van Lommel and his research team conducted with people who have had a near-death experience.

More information on International Association for Near-Death Studies: http://www.iands.org/

By Tijn Touber
Source: Ode Magazine #29

marina
03-12-2005, 03:11
maybe he should lay off meth and chill ?












;)

forre
03-12-2005, 03:18
Dunno. The brain receiver/transmitter function sounds probable. I had my own theory which is similar to the one mentioned above without any near-death games. We do live in a physical world and even our "soul" or consciousness have physical parameters. What are the units? Waves? Which ones? Electromagnetic? Who knows! One thing is more or less clear is that modern science is in its stone age period.

xmad
03-12-2005, 15:13
Yes,body and soul are seperated.cuz I've seen mine.I wasnt ill or something.I had a really weird experience.If you want I can say it.
We have lots of abilities that we are not aware of.I think we can detach our soul without dying.

nath
03-12-2005, 15:23
yes explain to us xmad. What is strange is that people who had this kind of expeience often speak about a "tunnel" with a lot of light at the extremity.

xmad
03-12-2005, 15:48
Ok,I will. but it will take me time to write it cuz as you know my English is terrible so I will do my best to make it understandable.I didnt saw any light or something maybe they were really about to die and me not.Thats why I said "I think we can detach our soul without dying"

forre
03-12-2005, 16:01
xmad, Take your time and write please if you wish to share. I'm sure it will be valuable information on this matter. Cool! :done:

KillaQueen
03-12-2005, 16:36
i can only remind you of those buddhist and yoga practitioners who claim they go into trances and detach from their physical selves. now technically, our spirit might reach another dimension after death and there's psychics who claim that, but you can't tell if they are for real or not. same goes for the people who claim they've been abducted by aliens. there's just some things that the world cannot explain, and that's why we label them as "paranormal". as much as we'd like to believe that we are the centre of the universe, we really aren't. there's stuff both outside and inside of us that's beyond our sense of comprehension. just like, for example, a dog has a larger hearing range than a human, there's stuff that our brain is not programmed to understand, whether we're scientists or not.

forre
03-12-2005, 17:06
a dog has a larger hearing range than a human, there's stuff that our brain is not programmed to understand, whether we're scientists or not.
We have built machines those measure, catch and generate a far wider range of sounds than any living creature is able to percept. Out brains are good enough to create theories which occasionally prove to be true. Understanding our own structure is just a matter of time.

xmad
03-12-2005, 22:32
Deleted.

KillaQueen
03-12-2005, 22:32
We have built machines those measure, catch and generate a far wider range of sounds than any living creature is able to percept.
no, i didn't mean that literally. i just made a comparison to underline the fact that our brain is unable to understand some things. we are not masters of the universe and we are not even our own masters, for that matter. we can't know everything. we can't fully understand our own body, and i don't think that our physical abilities, our material selves - as we know them today - will be able to perceive what's before and after life. we don't know what's there or if there's something there and we're only relying on other people to tell us (just like this cardiologist has made his experiments - on humans). and, again, humans are limited: if they ever got to "the other side" and came back to tell the tale, they wouldn't know where they were and couldn't fully explain their experience. for them, it's sort of like trying to define time, if you will. you know it's there, but you wouldn't know how to define it, where does it come from or how it functions. it's the same with those people. if they really get a glimpse of life after death, they cannot define it. so scientists as much as they try, they can never prove this "other dimension" simply because they don't know where it is or how it looks like or how it functions. and is it really visible? how does one perceive it once one's there? through a sixth sense? no one can put a finger on it. unless, of course, some hundreds of thousands of years go by and, just like we've developed from neanderthals to what we are today*, our brains will enhance their capabilities. that if we don't perish in the meanwhile what with our (self)destructive nature.

* i could have, of course, expanded the period and say "homo habilis" instead of "neanderthal", but i want to be optimistic and believe it would only take some 200.000 years and not 2.000.000 in order for humans to start understanding what we today call "paranormal phenomena".

spyretto
03-12-2005, 23:16
All those findings are based on the concept of faith and not science. Scientifically they're totally unsubstantianted. A near life experience can be perceived as a dream and in dreams the sense of floating, the idea of meeting lost relatives etc are very common. Even in cardiac arrest the brain still functions.
So a near life-experience doesn't prove there is an afterlife, no matter how much we want to believe in it.

forre
03-12-2005, 23:20
It will remain a theory until they put more studies into the subject. At least now, they try to measure something, etc. To say that it will always be something that we won't be able to understand is to say nothing. We didn't believe that Earth was just another planet until they mathematically figured it out and then built a telescope and then made a space trip. It's all just a matter of time. Everything starts with a theory.

xmad
03-12-2005, 23:57
So spyretto dont you believe in soul?

Rachel
03-12-2005, 23:59
I dunno about him, but I don't. :lalala:

xmad
04-12-2005, 00:10
You believe what you see,but do we really see everything?

Rachel
04-12-2005, 00:13
Maybe, maybe not. But as we'll never know no point in spending sleepless nights thinking about it :p

My philosophy - if I don't see it with my own eyes there is no proof, so for now I'll be content in the belief there is no soul :p

Mossopp
04-12-2005, 00:14
I try not to think about mortality too much cos I don't feel the need to be perpetually depressed anymore. We're all gonna die some day. We should just enjoy life while it lasts. It's too fucking short and it can be taken away from you in the blink of an eye.
Don't take it for granted.

KillaQueen
04-12-2005, 00:24
We didn't believe that Earth was just another planet until they mathematically figured it out and then built a telescope and then made a space trip.
yes, you are totally right, yet, you see, the soul is not tangible. it's not made of matter. or, better said, it's not made of earthly matter. it's something way beyond our limit of perception and comprehension. of course, we did explain and understand some things which are not palpable. BUT when it comes to the soul or its existence, we still don't have the slightest clue. we can't build machines to try to 'capture' it because we wouldn't know where to start. i doubt we'll get results by analyzing brain waves or thin air.

forre
04-12-2005, 00:28
yes, you are totally right, yet, you see, the soul is not tangible. it's not made of matter. or, better said, it's not made of earthly matter.
How do you know that? It's not any fact. Maybe what we call "a soul" is just a bunch of particles those are able to carry certain information and those make our personality. Who knows!

KillaQueen
04-12-2005, 00:31
well, because i think we would have discovered it by now if it were like that. but yeah well, who knows..

xmad
04-12-2005, 00:45
I really believe in soul,because I cant deny what I saw.

forre
04-12-2005, 00:48
I really believe in soul,because I cant deny what I saw.
I don't deny there isn't either. What I say is that it might have physical nature. Radio waves have physical nature, haven't they? We can't catch them with our brains but we have a receiver that transforms the waves into a sound.

xmad
04-12-2005, 01:00
What I say is that it might have physical nature
Yes,what you say sounds right.
And I think we can control it until the moment our body is not died.

freddie
04-12-2005, 01:35
There are some things I disagree on with the article so let me mention those first:
First: the brain storage area... we don't really understand how the brain stores data yet. We only have a general idea how neuron networks form a certain patern that actually represents stored "data" - memories. (just like a hard disk drive makes a patern on a magnetic platter, which a special read-head can interpret as data). How much data such a system is capable of storing is still a total unknown (understandable since we don't even understand the system in which it stores data yet). So saying that a brain couldn't store as much data as is required for an average life-time is (IMO) a bit rash.
- a feeling of floating in a dark tunnel, with a bright light at the end of it is explainable with dying (or severe shock) of the brain. A sudden rush of neurons causes this special effect (arguably to make a creature's final hours more bearable, maybe even peaceful). The same effect (on a lesser scale) can be observed when we hit our heads against an object. We see bright flashing in front of our eyes (we even have an expression in slovene (dunno if it's present in other langauges) - hitting your head so hard you see "stars". There you go - a sudden rush of neurons as a result of trauma. Of course that effect is emphasized severely during an NDE and in the final stages the dying brain is known to produce "the tunnel effect", as well.
- out of body experiences - though unusual and unexplainable - still aren't a conclusive proof of life after death. It's known that the brain produces a chemical similar to LSD when dying. LSD is known to cause out of body experiences, with people reporting floating around the rooms of the buildings they were lying in stoned and passed out, describing the surroundings with enormous accuracy.
-scientists argue how long the brain actually stays functioning, eventhough the machines show no more electric impulses. Maybe there still are, but not powerful enough to be picked up by machinery? Even a flat EEG and EKG don't always mark a definite end to biological consciousness.

On the other hand...

... I believe nothing ever dies. I don't know why, but somehow it just always seemed common sense to me. It's just one of those things, you know? Like we know we can't touch the sky or how a new born instinctively knows how to swim. It's just... instinct. Who knows. Maybe it's just wishful thinking.

I totally agree on the television comparison. though: our brains are receptors, collecting electromagnetic waves from the environment, decoding it and processing it into presentable data (for example sound waves into noise, light waves into eye-sight etc.) and thus creating our reality - a reality which exists independantly of us, but the brain presents it as subjective experience. Now the big question is... can this subjective experience which defines our self-awareness exist on it's own. Do NDEs prove it? IMO - no. They're too inconclusive to have real scientific value. Does this mean they're absolutely false? No way. It just means we don't have a clue whether they are or not. To argue it either way as the ultimate truth is in my opinon - idiotic. I doubt any serious scientist would totally disregard the possibility of continuation of subjective awareness after death, as well as I don't think anyone can claim that life after death is completely proven. So speaking of it scientifically is futile. For now.

This is the way I see it...
The brain is a biological manifestation of consciousness - consciousness that exists independantly of the brain itself, but which needs a brain to manifest itself in the "real" world. When I say "real" world I don't want to imply other worlds/dimensions/universes are any less real than ours is. I'd label our world as a "Universe which is ruled by 4 universal forces - electro-magnetism, gravity, weak nucleal force and strong nuclear force. Those 4 forces are in essence a manifestation of one single force that's called "the superforce" (the scientists are still arguing if all 4 are infact the same force, but it's a fact that electromagnetism and gravity are indeed the same force, as well as weak and strong nuclear forces are also the same). So anyway, without getting buried to much into physics, lets point out that those 4 forces are actually the building blocks of our whole universe and indirectly every biological structure out there including "life" as we know it - animals, plants and even people. We are a manifestation of those 4 forces. Or at least our earthly selves are a manifestation of them. The whole universe from it's start to it's end, every galaxy, every star, every planet, asteroid and every possible form of organic matter can be explained as those 4 forces manifesting themselves in a certain time and space. In our "real world". The subjective consciousness can only "appear in the role" of a protagonist in this universe run by 4 physical forces, through a certain medium. A medium through which it can manifest itself. The brain and the whole body is that medium. Think of it like this: we see data on a computer screen - the screen is the interface through which the whole computer communicates - it gives it essence and meaning for us - human beings. But this doesn't mean the screen actually IS the computer itself. The screen is plugged in to a graphic card through a VGA or DYI cable, which is then plugged in to a motherboard through a AGP or PCI Express port, while the motherboard is commanded by the CPU that's bedded in the middle of it. See? There's a whole system that makes a comp run - lastly commanded by a small cube hidden under a fan on the mother-board, called a CPU. Yet all we actually see is the end product - picture on the screen. Not the whole technology behind it, nor do (most of us) understand how it works. Think of the brain and the entire body as a computer screen. The end product of a whole system of works, that's operating from the background (from a universe which isn't neccesarily limited by our 4 physical forces, but possibly some others) - a system which is as impossible to understand as it would be impossible for a layman to grasp the actual binary commands of an average Pentium 4, as well as all the periphal devices working inside a PC.

Lets not forget our reality is also limited by time and space. Just wrap your mind around the idea of a higher dimension where there is no time... where all time is the eternal "now" - all the past and all the future is actually the present and everything is happening at that one instant... If such a dimension exists our whole lifes are nothing but a mosaic of things that are eternally happening now and forever while we were just artificially brought to a lower dimension that has a skewed version of comprehension of time (as in that the time actually progresses in a linear fashion). Only so we'd learn the skill of gradual progression and learning.

And thus... I continue to be an agnostic. It's just to complicated to grasp it. But one thing I'm absolutely sure of - I think coincidences do happen, but only as events. There are no coincidences in meeting people who're close to us in this particular life. Every such person is a part of our basic cluster of souls, that's been together since eternity (at least eternity as we know it). But that's already a part of another theory which I won't bore you with. :p

ps: (sorry about the huge post btw :lalala: )

pps: oh.. one of my points was this: there is no such thing as supernatural. I'm quite sure everything can be explained in a scientific manner if someone broke it down to us in a simplistic way so we'd be able to comprehend it with our limited earthly inteligence. By the current definities singlularity point (a point that has a volume of 0 cubic metres and yet it has a mass) in the centres of black-holes are supernatural as well, since all the physical calculations show that they DO exist but they SHOULDN'T exist in the physical world. We just don't understand certain factors of a giant squeeze caused by gravitation, which makes it apper to us as "impossible". Same with the supernatural - it's only a name for a natural event that has yet to be explained by the current science.

ppps: for KQ... I know what you mean about a soul not being something tangible. But here's my thought: there are new subatomic particles discovered every day - some of them have absolutely no mass. The only trace of their existance is a slight electric charge. A nevrino is such a particle for instance. There's a debate on whether gravity is actually caused by small, unmeasurable particles called gravitons. The only possible clue of their existence is s trace they leave on other subatomic particles (usually inside a nuclear accelerator). There are ideas of millions of such untracable and unmeansurable basic particles which from our mindset don't even exist (since they don't have a mass, while some don't even have an electronic charge... one would wonder what makes them exist and effect other particles around them, then?). The science of subatomic particles is very intriguing indeed imo. There's a lot of promise there for this science to fill some holes in our current knowledge in the future.

forre
04-12-2005, 04:02
4 forces manifesting themselves in a certain time and space.
One of the biggest mistakes of human science is definition of time and space. There are simply no such things. There's only dynamism where matter moves. They say that at high speeds, time slows down. It's not time that slows down but the dynamism, which changes. Space is as good as time. Space is a matter correlation. All we got here instead of time and space is a moving matter.

Interesting points on subatomic particles and a questionable belief on coincidence. We could speak here about a universal system of balance for instance.

nath
04-12-2005, 08:36
My philosophy - if I don't see it with my own eyes there is no proof, so for now I'll be content in the belief there is no soul
i understand what you feel Rach but just see: you have a notebook without cable(wi-fi system)....you download a movie....
Of course at the end you can look at your movie on your computer , but You NEVER SEE the movie travelling into your computer....:ithink:

For my own part , if a computer is able to send and receive and decode some waves , I think our brain has similar powers....which could explain , for exemple, some kind of possible communications between some persons....
With some brains more used to catch some waves than others.....with some brains which are able to decode the same frequencies.

In another part, I'm very prudent about the imagination possibility of our brains....
When I was at the lycée, I had too a mathematics teacher who was a very serious guy, who was explaining about the fact he has experimented himself several times this phenomen when you separate your "soul" from your body and you see your "envelopp" while your "soul" is flying above.....

But such expeimentations need a LOT of concentration most of the time...so at the end i don't know if this "phenomen" is the "reallity" or the product of " a concentration of the brain on a specific idea"...so the brain creates itself this sensation , this thought it was real....

I'm very prudent with these phenomens too, cause as I've said it before, I've lived with a girl who was , before me and at the beginning of our commun life, "communicating with death people"....
I've never assisted to that myself but you can observe that all the person energy is concentrated with this aspect.....so when you concentrate all your energy on that, indeed you pass beside the "real all days life"...
She is out of all that now....doesnt even touch a card to "see" the future.....cause you become tooo dependant of those "paranormal "phenomens...and i'm happy for her that she left all that behind her...

That's why i'm very prudent with all that ....the brain can adapt itself very quickly to its environment.....
KillaQueen , you speak about the things that dogs can hear and not nowdays men....but does it mean that man has never heard them?
Perhaps the "homo habilis" or "neanderthal man" had a larger hearing range than our present dogs??? just because it was so important for his survey in this time...
Perhaps the civilization and a more protected life has influenced our brain to the priorities , it has to place in first?

All that to conclude that I don't say NO and i don't say YES....cause I don't know.
I'm happy that other persons make these experimentations instead of me....if it could make improve our understanding of "how we are , how we work, how the universe works, what is life, wat is death..."...

I think too that we have a lootttt , a looott of surprizing things to discover in the future.....but in the same time.....i'm an "instinct" person...(bad i know in such discussion)...so I can believe to unvisible waves communications between some persons...I can believe to the possibility to "travel" quickly by this phenomen of waves...BUT i don't "feel" -for the present time- something after life...that's why, in the doubt, I prefer, in a very egoïstic way , profit of my present moments of life than to concentrate my brain into extra simple daily life....

But I'm happy that a lot of persons don't react like me and experiment and search :)

Just I don't know.
I'd label our world as a "Universe which is ruled by 4 universal forces - electro-magnetism, gravity, weak nucleal force and strong nuclear force. Those 4 forces are in essence a manifestation of one single force that's called "the superforce" (the scientists are still arguing if all 4 are infact the same force, but it's a fact that electromagnetism and gravity are indeed the same force, as well as weak and strong nuclear forces are also the same). So anyway, without getting buried to much into physics, lets point out that those 4 forces are actually the building blocks of our whole universe and indirectly every biological structure out there including "life" as we know it - animals, plants and even people. We are a manifestation of those 4 forces. Or at least our earthly selves are a manifestation of them. The whole universe from it's start to it's end, every galaxy, every star, every planet, asteroid and every possible form of organic matter can be explained as those 4 forces manifesting themselves in a certain time and space.
One of the biggest mistakes of human science is definition of time and space. There are simply no such things. There's only dynamism where matter moves. They say that at high speeds, time slows down. It's not time that slows down but the dynamism, which changes. Space is as good as time. Space is a matter correlation. All we got here instead of time and space is a moving matter.

Freddie, sometimes I wonder if it's not you who should be married with my wifie...:ithink:

xmad
04-12-2005, 11:02
Well,here comes a question:
Does the soul have the power of doing something when its detached?or it just flies?

Well,no one has answered the question so let me answer.
My answer is :Yes.

KillaQueen
04-12-2005, 12:03
very interesting post, freds. i like it how you compared our physical selves with a computer screen. the brain itself could also be an interface which allows us to manifest in this earthly environment.

just to make it clear, i'm not saying i don't believe in "souls" or some other dimension, i'm just saying it is impossible for us to understand it and it will be for a long time to come. there could be a superior dimension (or maybe it's a full circular system of other dimensions). the first comparison that comes to mind in order to make my point is that mankind is like a hamster trapped in a cage. now when you put the hamster there, it takes a while for him to discover where to get food, where to get water, how to run on that spinning wheel thing... of course, it's not the most proper comparison, but maybe, roughly like that hamster, we are trapped in the solar system (or in a larger system for that matter). it takes a while for us to discover all things. of course, on another level: assuming the hamster doesn't try to figure out how the food and water gets into its cage and how come he never advances when he runs on that spinning thing. we, as humans, try to find out how things work, try do discover the dimension in which we live according to our limits (because we do have limits).

think of it as layers of existence: we, humans, exist on our layer, each species of animals exist on their layers, plants exist on their particular layers and so on. man, possessing a superior level of inteliigence, makes sure those animals and plants exist between some limits (there is, of course, an interaction between man and the other earthly species, but the former has the upper hand, if you will). now suppose there is another layer of existence, of life above us (and another, and another, and another). who's to say we'll ever discover it or learn how it works? who's to say it wants to be discovered? who's to say it doesn't influence us? maybe just like our physical bodies disintegrate after death, our "souls" go back to where they actually came from. maybe the "souls" are indeed of a physical nature as well or just maybe they are something beyond our level of comprehension (which is what i think). just because we have a higher intelligence, doesn't mean that we don't have our limits. and i don't know why, but i think this "other dimension" thing is our limit. maybe because, as much as we look for it here, on earth, in air, in the ground and maybe even in space, i don't think it exists in the environment as we know it.

spyretto
04-12-2005, 12:17
So spyretto dont you believe in soul?

I do want to believe in it but that doesn't mean we have scientific proof that it exists. Then science is supposed to be surpassed and cancelled out in matters of faith. The word "believe" implies a certain degree of faith it itself so nobody can say with certainty that it exists. So I think that even those atheists or agnostics can't be absolutely sure of what they believe in but the same goes for the deeply regilious people. But in any case I don't think that whether you believe or not can have an impact on the deeds of your earthly life.

forre
04-12-2005, 15:53
Spy, we all stated here that science begins with observation, analysis and theories. What we have here is the same pattern. We don't prove anything scientifically as we don't have tools but we do posses knowledge which makes us to doubt earlier postulates.

They made opinion surveys in USA and UK on whom people would like to clone:
1. Albert Einstein
2. Jesus
3. Mozart
See, people's thirst of science is bigger than of believes.

zelda05
04-12-2005, 16:56
What is strange is that people who had this kind of expeience often speak about a "tunnel" with a lot of light
It is quite interesting you have pointed this out. In fact, I was speaking with my supervisor (at work) who had an unforunate car accident few years ago. As a result, he is unfortunately paralyzed. Anyway, I asked about his car accident and he mentioned he was in the coma for one or two weeks. I inquired if he had experienced anything during his coma such as "going toward the tunnel, etc," as a lot people often speak of such things. He said when he was in a coma, his "soul was in the room" while his body laid in the bed. Moreover, he mentioned that he couldn't hear his family when they were talking to him; however, he did see his family being around in the room. Furthuremore, he stated that he did went to some place, a tunnel i would presume, where he saw people but couldn't see their faces as they were covered with cloths.

Did I believe him?... hmmm, well I just took his words for it and nothing more. As Rachel mentioned there is "no point in spending sleepless nights thinking about it." :)

Rachel
04-12-2005, 17:29
i understand what you feel Rach but just see: you have a notebook without cable(wi-fi system)....you download a movie....
Of course at the end you can look at your movie on your computer , but You NEVER SEE the movie travelling into your computer....:ithink: Of course you don't see the signal but you see tbe end result which means you see something - you see the proof. You don't see any proof of a soul.

People believe in a soul because they are scared of death and the thought that there is nothing once you die and it's the end.

forre
04-12-2005, 17:32
As Rachel mentioned there is "no point in spending sleepless nights thinking about it."
The paradox is that people who "have seen" don't spend sleepless nights as they state to find peace of their mind because they are not afraid of death any longer.

Linda16
04-12-2005, 20:12
It is quite interesting you have pointed this out. In fact, I was speaking with my supervisor (at work) who had an unforunate car accident few years ago. As a result, he is unfortunately paralyzed. Anyway, I asked about his car accident and he mentioned he was in the coma for one or two weeks. I inquired if he had experienced anything during his coma such as "going toward the tunnel, etc," as a lot people often speak of such things. He said when he was in a coma, his "soul was in the room" while his body laid in the bed. Moreover, he mentioned that he couldn't hear his family when they were talking to him; however, he did see his family being around in the room. Furthuremore, he stated that he did went to some place, a tunnel i would presume, where he saw people but couldn't see their faces as they were covered with cloths.

That's very interesting experience you are describing. It coincides with other experiences of people who have survived from coma.

I belive that if here on the board are persons who have seen other people dying, they agree that there is a dichotomy between mind (soul?) and body. The body may be already on the other side, not functioning anymore, but the soul is still here, aware and active.

I have explained the phenomenon like that (not scientifically, but personally, just for me :)) When people are dying, the gates between the two worlds - our world and the other world - are open. Therefore also the living ones are feeling the cold wind from the world of the dead :) The ordinary rules are are not legitimite any more, strange things may happen, the worlds mix. When everything is over, the gates get closed and everything turns back to normal. :) It may sound like a horror-movie or science fiction, but I have had some experiences and I believe that such kind of things could happen :)

KillaQueen
04-12-2005, 20:16
The paradox is that people who "have seen" don't spend sleepless nights as they state to find peace of their mind because they are not afraid of death any longer.
and that could be explained with the things freds has pointed out. as it shuts down its functions, the brain releases some drug-like chemical which supposedly gives you the feeling of peace and so on, but hey! this makes me think of something. now leaving aside what the brain does during the (near) death experience, maybe it's about what the brain doesn't do. we said it shuts down - that could be a gradual process. first some functions turn off, then others. maybe thats why people have said before dying that they feel no pain anymore, and a sense of peace - because their brain was shutting off its centres. and maybe the feeling of being weightless and of floating comes from the fact that (some of) their five senses were being shut down. they didn't feel they were 'held down' by gravity.

forre
04-12-2005, 20:43
KillaQueen, It leaves us with so-called sixth sense then. ;)
You can become fearless of death by studying the subject and convince yourself that there's life after death. No drugs or automotive shut down is needed then. Pretty the same nature. That's what I spoke about.

nath
04-12-2005, 21:57
You can become fearless of death by studying the subject and convince yourself that there's life after death.
If you have a curious mind, life after death could be very interesting and exciting.....but for an old bear as me....life after death without the people whom I love on earth has no interest....

I'm surely a narrow mind but ....i'm born like that.....with my marks which belong to the world where I live...I love to touch , I love to smell, I love to kiss, I love to look at the people I love...

If it exists something somewhere...it would be surely fabulous but I'm not sure I would find there the "things" , the persons for whom I live.

I HATE death. Not because I'm afraid to die. Not about my own body.
But because I Hate the idea to not see anymore the ones I love. I'm sad about that only.

forre
04-12-2005, 22:03
I HATE death. Not because I'm afraid to die. Not about my own body.
But because I Hate the idea to not see anymore the ones I love. I'm sad about that only.
You should be in bed now, hi-hi.
Well, that's what would keep us wanting to live even when we scientifically prove that there's life after death. I mean, basically, the science will dismiss religious teachings and similar tales but it won't make this life any less meaningful.

KillaQueen
04-12-2005, 22:12
damn: "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to nath again." :bebebe:

don't say you're narrow minded, because at the end of the day - or better said at the end of life - what you just said is what really matters. in the moment of dying, i think no one stops to analyze the process or the sensations... what they must feel is a huge feeling of loneliness, of longing, of yearning for one more, just one more breath of air.. i have tears in my eyes when posting this because i have witnessed the death of a very dear person to my heart and obviously i still cannot get over it. it was my grandmother. she tried to say something, she was struggling to say it just before it happened, but her words never came out... and i can't imagine what she felt.. really wanting to say something.. maybe to say goodbye.. and she never got to say it.. sorry, i'm just going to stop now.

xmad
04-12-2005, 22:51
KillaQueen,that's so sad.I'm so sorry for that.

Opposite to nath I love death cuz I cant take losing the ones I love.I mean I hope I'll die before them and I hope there's no life after death.

KillaQueen
04-12-2005, 23:18
KillaQueen,that's so sad.I'm so sorry for that.
thank you.
Opposite to nath I love death cuz I cant take losing the ones I love.I mean I hope I'll die before them and I hope there's no life after death.
yeah, wanting to die before the ones you love is wanting to take the easy way out. it's also a selfish thought. and i don't mean that with an evil tone. not at all. i guess we're all tempted to say that we want to die first so we don't suffer the loss of our beloved. but this makes me think of something a romanian actor said to his wife at some point: "i love you so much that i hope i die after you." made me think.. anyway, this thread got to such a depressive point.

anyone care to share his/her beliefs on the subject?

forre
05-12-2005, 02:50
anyone care to share his/her beliefs on the subject?
Personal attitude? We do live as if we were immortal. It's a sort of in our nature or better to say a psychological protection. This way of thinking is a complete bull and we know that but still... Yes, we like fairy tales and they often keep us alive and give us strength to go on even if things look black.

Do I like death? Nope. Do I want to live for ever? Nope. Death is a fact for me. The same fact as it'll be surely -15 and ice in winter. I don't even want to think about it but when the time comes, I make best out of it.

When people die, I often feel peace but anger because they left me. No, I don't want my loved ones to leave me. Yes, a human approach here. It's normal.

nath
05-12-2005, 07:11
I wrote what I felt but of course I agree that science is a great thing and has to be delopped and encouraged.
I have a lot of respect for all those men and woman who search when their purpose is the improvement of life.

KillaQueen
05-12-2005, 17:53
it would be interesting to know also Amber's opinion on this whole thing. her posts are always so pleasant to read. :lady:

Rachel
05-12-2005, 19:50
Amber doesn't believe in a soul either :p

Khartoun2004
05-12-2005, 20:26
don't say you're narrow minded, because at the end of the day - or better said at the end of life - what you just said is what really matters. in the moment of dying, i think no one stops to analyze the process or the sensations... what they must feel is a huge feeling of loneliness, of longing, of yearning for one more, just one more breath of air.. i have tears in my eyes when posting this because i have witnessed the death of a very dear person to my heart and obviously i still cannot get over it. it was my grandmother. she tried to say something, she was struggling to say it just before it happened, but her words never came out... and i can't imagine what she felt.. really wanting to say something.. maybe to say goodbye.. and she never got to say it.. sorry, i'm just going to stop now.

I'm sorry Killa. That is awful

I Think Killa's post brings up an excellent point. No matter what you believe happens after a person dies, they are dead. Gone from this dimension/plain, what ever you wanna call it and unless Vampires are real, 99.9% of the time, they don't come back. It sucks, believe me I know. I've had to deal with a lot of death in my short life, especially recently. But that's the cycle of Life.

I think we can all agree on that. Further more, it is insinct that drives even the lowest of spieces to struggle for LIFE. Even at the very end, life is the driving force behind every breath, every heart beat... Why care about what happens when you die, now? Does it really matter? When you are gone from this life you are gone from it. Why not focus on extending your current life and the lives of those you love instead of worrying about what everyone is going to do in the next life? Why not worry about it when you are dead?

xmad
05-12-2005, 20:46
Why not focus on extending your current life and the lives of those you love instead of worrying about what everyone is going to do in the next life? Why not worry about it when you are dead?

Mankind is curious so wants and needs to discover everything.

spyretto
05-12-2005, 21:57
How do you know that? It's not any fact. Maybe what we call "a soul" is just a bunch of particles those are able to carry certain information and those make our personality. Who knows!

Or even linked to matter itself as according to the rpg metaphysical theory, as the matter adds to the earth's energy ( Gaea )
the spirit itself transmutes into a defensive mechanism that keeps the balance of the earth and protects the living. :D

forre
05-12-2005, 21:57
Mankind is curious so wants and needs to discover everything.
Yep, it's in our nature. Another instinct.

freddie
06-12-2005, 02:44
First of all we need to seperate 2 things here: brain's reaction to a traumatic events (which might as well contribute to many of the phenomena described - tunnel & light vision for sure... plus some others) and actual philosophic discussion about life after death. Yes, most of the things we experience at death can be explained with a dying brain projecting nice images to us. But is that the ultimate proof there is no life after death? I don't think so. It's just a diversion. IMO we shouldn't really be looking at these side-effect things. If you really want to go about it scientifically there's really not much you can to with the reality as we know it (I totally agree with Killa's agnostic point of view on this... my idea here includes the theory of paralel universes, maybe a universes with different rules of physics (no 4 forces), but in reality it's completely beyond my comprehension.) So first things first: lets forget those damn tunnel vision side effects. LOL (Okay, though I have to admit I'm really curious why people feel at peace and calmed down, with no fear of dying after NDEs... I'm not saying it isn't a side-effect of the brain, but it's still interesting - drugs couldn't really recreate that feeling. Drugs usually lead to severe paranoia, violent nightmare-ish hallucinations and other unpleasent feelings in the long run rather than this soothing feeling people are describing.) Other than that - regarding what's been said already I agree with forre and killa completely.

These are my ... I shouldn't say beliefs... just my best guesses. I guess. :p

First of all let me point out that I have no evidence for these guesses. It's just my personal view-point on life the universe and everything.™ My beliefs are influenced by reading a few books, philosophic discussions, books on meditation plus various articles and reports. But ultimately it's what I "feel". It's just one of those things, where you feel something's right. Call it 6th sense or whatever.

As I mentioned before I don't believe there are coincidences regarding people we meet (and love) during our life-times. There are clusters of souls that stay together during many life-times and take on different roles, but always in mutual agreement. A cluster can be as small as just a 100 of souls to as big as millions. Reincarnation exists, but it's much more complicated than we could even imagine it to be. Everything needs to fit. A drunkard needs to live his current life so another mate from it's soul-cluster would meet him and would be influenced by his tragedy... now imagine billions of fates meeting up like that in a seemingly coincidental manner). A cluster of souls contains many souls that have been together since the begining of time (their perception of time is still linear, but we'll get to that later). The more lives individual souls of a specific cluster lead on Earth the more experience and knowledge they gain. Which leads towards greater unity of a cluster itself with the universal unity of souls, which exists on yet another level. Maybe this would be what we'd call "God", yet it's just a unity of inteligence, warmth and wisdom... a clusters that have moved on in it's wisdom from eternal cycles of reincarnation and learning to a higher dimension, where time and space no longer exist and where TRUE multidimensional living actually begins. We could call that the actual start of "existance"... without the illusion that time and space are a limited and linear. As I'll mention later this is not actually where souls are heading towards, btu also where they initially came from.

The universe itself in all it's glory - all the billions of galaxies and all the billions of stars those galaxies contain, along with billions of billions of planets that harbour inteligent life - is a fabulous testing ground for individual souls, soul clusters they belong to and soul groups in a wider sense of the word (like the groups of souls that inhabits the planet Earth specifically... as opposed to another group which for instance inhabits a planet revolving around Alpha Centauri). Rocky planets that revolve around the sun are like huge libraries of knowladge where a young restless soul is able to come to terms with who it is, what it's doing and where it's going. It's all about self-development in the purest sense of the word. When a cluster of souls evolves enough and reincarnations become redundant they can either choose to join the great unified entity in a higher dimension or decide (in solidarity with every individual soul inside the cluster), that they still have stuff to learn and take a leap into the great unknown - probably leaving Earth and heading towards another solar system and another planet (preferably with higher life-forms than on the former planet), to venture into another cycle of educational reincarnation process. While there's another cluster somewhere else on a different planet, who decided they learned enough on a planet inhabited with creatures who have the inteligence of early man and decide to look for pastures new, on Earth - thus taking the place of a cluster which just left to "settle" a planet inhabited by creatured of higher inteligence, or towards the great unified entity...

The greatest philosophic dilemma regarding reicarnation was this: since Earth's population is rising gradualy (from around 20-60 million 2000 years ago, to around 5000 million now), one would wonder where all the "new" souls come from to fill in bodies that are being born on Earth. The answer is... Universe is an (almost) endless mass of souls... there are more souls than there are stars, and as we know there are billions of billions of stars. They inhabit countless planets and move around from one solar system to another to start processes of reincarnation cycles. I know it sounds like a terrible logistical problem, but we shouldn't look at this from our limited earthly stand-points. It's all ran by a huge inteligence standing in the background of events - the before mentioned unified entity of higher evolved souls - a place where all of us will inevitably end. But not yet at death...

When we die, we just go back to our basic cluster - where other peers greet us and eagerly await to share the experience and knowledge we gained in the we just ended. After a soul spends a certain undefined amount of time in the astral world it's time to reincarnate into another life again. It's never a decision forced upon a soul. It always decides on it's own when the rest is over and it's time to go back again - I'd imagine it's quite a traumatic experience for a soul to leave it's bellowed cluster where it feels loved and protected, to go back to a vicious place called Earth, where it'd as well be surrounded by incarnated members of it's own cluster, but they'd artificially appear as complete strangers to them in the new life to come.

So basically I'd say there are 3 levels of reality:
1) our reality - physical world, time is linear, space is defined and limits us greatly...
2) reality of souls and their respective soul clusters - another dimension, but pretty similar to ours, time is linear, but runs differently from the one in our reality, space is defined but doesn't limit souls... this reality seems to be very closely connected to the universe we live in and it's just plausable it follows the basic rules of physics as well (at least the law of 4 forces, which probably define both dimensions)
3) reality of the great unity of highly evolved souls - no time, no space...or rather... all the time in the world. In this dimension everything is happening NOW... the past and the future are all part of the present - everything that did happen is happening now and everything that will happen is happening now as well... the only thing that still glues this dimension to the other two is the basic rule of 4 physical forces - they apparently represent tapistry of which the whole existence is made of. Other than that, this dimension seems to share little similarity to other two and requires a really enlightened soul-cluster to actually enter this realm, since a young and inexperienced souls would have problems comprehending it's wonderous nature.

Where did the souls initially come from? This is just an educated guess, but I'd say at certain point in time (or should I say at all points in time), the before mentioned unity of highly evolves souls, which was once probably just one super-inteligent entity decided to split into many pieces like a jig-saw puzzle and some pieces willingly submerged into lower dimensions in which they're limited by space and time, just so each piece of this giant puzzle would find it's way back to the original unity - while learning something in the process in the "lower" dimensions. This would actually be the initial reason for teh great collective unity to split - natural urge for knowledge and understanding. And what better training-ground to learn about itself than lower dimensions, like the realm of the souls and realm of the actual physical universe? So one migth ask then, where did the initial unified inteligence come from. The answer is... it's just been there forever. Don't forget the realm of the unified inteligence knows no time. The time in this dimension is always "forever" - all the moments happen at once and in every place of it's existence (no space limits). It's hard to really explain these mysterious, eternal properties of this dimension. Not even our souls (who already have - in Earthly terms - endless inteligence) can really grasp the wonders of it fully. Of course I wouldn't rule out there are more unified entities like this. Dosens, thousands, millions, billions? Each of those could submerge it's pieces into the great unknown of the dimensions limited by time and space... possibilities are absolutely fabulous and completely endless. But I'll tell you this much...

On a very bright night look up to the skies full of stars... notice that endless sea of twinkles emerging from the darkness of be background. Doesn't it feel like the universe is absolutely packed with all sorts of life all over the place? Doesn't it feel like it's like a busy metropolis bustling with activity? And futhermore don't you get that calming feeling like there's there some sorts of an unimaginable inteligence behind it? Something outrageously spectacuar and grand? I do.

marina
06-12-2005, 11:32
We have to die. That’s clear. And Earth will die , as a separate planet , when the sun becomes a red giant . In five billion years or so. It will swallow the Earth , with Mercury and Venus , and throw them out in a halo of gas , and the gas may condense into stars again……..but all the time , we’ll be losing energy .
In the end , the whole universe will run down.... It will expand too far, it will thin to nothing , nothing but endless dark and cold.
But there’s another possibility. Astronomers say so , and we can hope…....At some point of expansion , the universe will rush together again . Over billion of years , time will run backwards , until all matter shrinks to a singularity . And then the Big Bang will happen again and everything will emerge again , utterly different but still in motion . And in some sense we shall still be there ( forre , and nath , and Amber , and freddie , Killa ,and Rachel and fudge…..) and I , as energy , completely transformed.
We were stardust once. We could be stars again.
Somehow we shall shine for other living things . Others will look for a meaning in us.

Shameless rip-off from wonderful Maggie Gee *Light Years*

spyretto
06-12-2005, 12:29
I'd imagine it's quite a traumatic experience for a soul to leave it's bellowed cluster where it feels loved and protected, to go back to a vicious place called Earth, where it'd as well be surrounded by incarnated members of it's own cluster, but they'd artificially appear as complete strangers to them in the new life to come.

Why just Earth? If there are other species in other populated planets our souls can reincarnate into I don't see why I should limit ourselves. I could be an orc, an elf or a dwarf, extraterrestrial in any case!

freddie
06-12-2005, 13:42
We have to die. That’s clear. And Earth will die , as a separate planet , when the sun becomes a red giant . In five billion years or so. It will swallow the Earth , with Mercury and Venus , and throw them out in a halo of gas , and the gas may condense into stars again……..but all the time , we’ll be losing energy .
In the end , the whole universe will run down.... It will expand too far, it will thin to nothing , nothing but endless dark and cold.
But there’s another possibility. Astronomers say so , and we can hope…....At some point of expansion , the universe will rush together again . Over billion of years , time will run backwards , until all matter shrinks to a singularity . And then the Big Bang will happen again and everything will emerge again , utterly different but still in motion . And in some sense we shall still be there ( forre , and nath , and Amber , and freddie , Killa ,and Rachel and fudge…..) and I , as energy , completely transformed.
We were stardust once. We could be stars again.
Somehow we shall shine for other living things . Others will look for a meaning in us.

Shameless rip-off from wonderful Maggie Gee *Light Years*
There are still those 2 theories about our universe, yes. Endless expanssion untill there's nothing left but fundamental bits and radiation floating around empty space, or a reversal of the expanssion we're been experiencing for the last 15 bilion years and merger of all the material of the Universe into one single point in time and space. This second idea could be named the theory of a self-maintained universe. I'd mean the energy in THIS universe is ever present and works in constant cycles.
But we can't forget one fact, when we're talking about these two theories: they limit themselves on this universe and this dimension inside this one particular universe. There are no reasons currently that would deny existence of countless other universes and countless dimensions within them. Our particular universe, along with it's 4 fundamental forces and defined (linear) time and space is just one layer of reality. The only one we can comprehend as mortal creatures.

[i] Why just Earth? If there are other species in other populated planets our souls can reincarnate into I don't see why I should limit ourselves. I could be an orc, an elf or a dwarf, extraterrestrial in any case!
Of course. I only mentioned Earth as an example. As I said IMO, souls move from solar system to solar system, but only in cluster, with mutual agreement of every individual within a cluster.


In response to Nath and all of you who say that life after death is not really LIFE as we know it anymore and you'd miss the touching, kissing, holding people you love etc. I completely understand you. It's not a very appealing thought to me either - I'd never want to lose my earhly self, if it was on me to decide. But at the same instance I recognize a possibility of something grander out there. Something beyond my comprehension, yet just as satisfying as hugging someone we love. We don't really like change - at least not up to an extent of our physical body being gone. We can't imagine interaction without touching and feeling with our physical selves. I'd say our view-point is limited to what we know and feel comfortable with. Like caged animals, who've never experienced the wild... or rather in our case - have experienced it but have since forgotten temporarily.
The way I figure things: all the emotions we feel here on earth, that manifest themselves through our central nervous system are a manifestation of our REAL emotions, we feel as a soul - the nervous system and the brain is mimicking and trying to convey what the soul feels in it's pure form - when not trapped inside a body in one of the reincarnation cycles. But the problem is - what we feel through our physical bodies is just a good proximity of feelings in their pure original form. I'd imagine that what a soul feels is basically the same, yet thousand times more intense. Some people who narrowly escaped death reported experiencing emotions like that in their pure form - reports like that are imo the most interestin of all NDEs. These people said they only realized how true love feels when they were completely submerged and bathed with love of all it's soul peers, who they're close to in the astral world and only learned about the true horror of sorrow and regret when they actually felt everything they've done wrong to people in their life-times. On this point I actually agree with the article that the bad part of death is actually us self-evaluating ourselves in agony of guilt and pain that can last for quite a while. If anyone read Jean Paul Sartre's Behind Closed Doors - there's an interesting thought expressed in that novel - Hell doesn't consist of chains, eternal fires, sulphur lakes and Lucifer trying to stick a hot chilly pepper inside your orifice of choice. Every person creates a hell of its own. Hell is people we hurt, fears we never overcame and short-comings we have as human beings.

nath
07-12-2005, 00:46
Freddie.....I think I "know" what you mean more than you imagine about the "superiority" of the intensity of the "Soul" compared to physical things.....more than you could never imagine... ;)

Just to Love everybody isn't my cup of tea...Bad here I know..... :(

These people said they only realized how true love feels when they were completely submerged and bathed with love of all it's soul peers, who they're close to in the astral world and only learned about the true horror of sorrow and regret when they actually felt everything they've done wrong to people in their life-times.
Just a thought which crossed my mind here....no provocation at all....
Do you realize that ....if we didn't know you.....what you wrote above is just so close to .....religious words..... I'm serious...not the way the Religion was exploited and used for personal proficts...but the Original Essence, Meaning, Message of Religion?...:confused:

By the way I don't like Sartre and I absolutely DISLIKE him as a person.... ;)

freddie
07-12-2005, 13:58
Just a thought which crossed my mind here....no provocation at all....
Do you realize that ....if we didn't know you.....what you wrote above is just so close to .....religious words..... I'm serious...not the way the Religion was exploited and used for personal proficts...but the Original Essence, Meaning, Message of Religion?...:confused:

Exactly right. The essence of many religions from the start was something in the proximity of those words, but got scewed somewhere along the line, obviously to be exploited for personal gain. BUt even if you look beyond the exploitation of religious worldwide... I think even deeply religions people use those words as a sort of kitch a statement - something disposable and shallow. Just like svastika (as an ancient good luck charm and symbol of the sun) got ruined by the Nazis. That's what I call inadvertent exploitation. In the long run it made it into something corny and ridiculous. But imo that's just because it's impossible to explain with words - in the end it comes out like a bad babblefish translation. It takes "another language" to get it. Do I get it myself? No way. I only see subtle glances, while I can't even begin to comprehend what's behind them.

forre
07-12-2005, 22:27
I don't think Universe is as complicated as we might imagine. Why to have several dimensions? What's the purpose of having several instead of one? Why to dig through super-booper force that rules everything in the Universe including our souls? Albert spoke about cosmic Constanta which balances everything. Sounds pretty sane to me. If not that but definitely a pleasant theory. Nothing ever dies. It's just one structure is being transformed into another. One condition into another one.

freddie
08-12-2005, 18:53
I don't think we can comprehend some things that happen around us - we're limited creatures, yet space is by it's definition unlimited... our own limitations makes infinite dimensions uncomprehendable to our brain. Same with time - we're swiming in this ocean of linear time, and can't even imagine it as anything else then an eternal constant. Eternity? Beyond our comprehension. Don't get me wrong though. It's only complicated to US. In the grand scheme of things it's probably all very simple and I don't doubt the ultimate meaning of existance is very straight forward and ordinary.

forre
08-12-2005, 22:40
freddie, We are learning and learning fast. 600 years ago people thought Earth was flat. It's just an example. 600 years is nothing in comparison with the age of human evolution. I'd say nothing about our limits of comprehension. We were smart enough to comprehend that there's something else than us only. Existence of religions is the best proof of it. Of course, it's all conclusive but still...

xmad
09-12-2005, 08:23
We are learning and learning fast. 600 years ago people thought Earth was flat.
I agree with that.

How can we talk about our limitations when we are not aware of our abilities?
We're limiting ourself by accepting so many things.accepting is the worst and the easiest way.

freddie
09-12-2005, 22:35
Agnostics tend to think the real secret behind life's meaning isn't reachable to human understanding, while critics of these beliefs point out how mankind evolved in these 2 millenia and how it (probably) has almost infinite time ahead of it, to advance further - it's mindboggling what human race could achieve in a million years (providing we still exist by then), we could evolve into something unthinkable to a human living today. Just like a prehistoric man couldn't imagine what today's man would look like, or how it would evolve.

Me? I dunno. I'm split both ways. I partially agree with both sides, but in the end... I just don't know. :p
Which makes me an agnostic, by definition.

Amy_Lee_Rocks
25-02-2006, 20:47
Humans will soon be extinc