PDA

View Full Version : Hurricane Katrina


madeldoe
02-09-2005, 22:03
Engineers knew levees were limited

By Pete Carey

KNIGHT RIDDER

The levee system that protected New Orleans from hurricane-caused surges along Lake Pontchartrain was never designed to survive a storm the size of Hurricane Katrina, the Army Corps of Engineers said Thursday.

The levees were built to withstand only a Category 3 storm, something projections suggested would strike New Orleans only once every two or three centuries, the commander of the corps, Lt. Gen. Carl A. Strock, told reporters in a conference call.

Katrina was a Category 4 storm.

"Unfortunately, that occurred in this case," Strock said.

Strock said that the levee system's design was settled on a quarter of a century ago, before the current numerical system of classifying storms was in widespread use.

He said that studies had begun recently on strengthening the system to protect against Category 4 and 5 hurricanes but hadn't progressed very far.

Strock added that despite a May report by the corps' Louisiana district that a lack of federal funding had slowed construction of hurricane protection, nothing the corps could have done recently would have prevented Katrina from flooding New Orleans.

"The levee projects that failed were at full project design and were not really going to be improved," Strock said.

Strock's comments drew immediate criticism from flood-protection advocates, who said that the corps' May report was a call for action and a complaint about insufficient funding, and that no action took place.

"The corps knew, everybody knew, that the levees had limited capability," said Joseph Suhayda, a retired director of the Louisiana State University's Water Resources and Research Institute.

"Because of exercises and simulations, we knew that the consequences of overtopping (water coming over the levees) would be disastrous. People were playing with matches in the fireworks factory and it went off."

Suhayda, an expert in coastal oceanography, said, "the fact the levee failed is not according to design. If it was overtopped, it's because it was lower in that spot than other spots. The fact that it was only designed for a Category 3 meant it was going to get overtopped. I knew that. They knew that. There were limits."

Some critics Thursday questioned the usefulness of levees, saying that all of them fail eventually.

"There are lots of ways for levees to fail. Overtopping is just one of them," said Michael Lindell, of Texas A&M University's Hazard Reduction and Recovery Center. "There's a lot of smokescreen about 'low probabilities.' Low probabilities just means 'Takes a long time.'"

Strock said that stopping the flow of water over the levees has proved to be "a very challenging effort."

Congress in 1999 authorized the corps to conduct a study costing up to $12 million to determine how much it would cost to protect New Orleans from a Category 5 hurricane, but the study isn't scheduled to get under way until 2006.

It was not clear why the study has taken so long to begin, though Congress has only provided in the range of $100,000 or $200,000 a year so far.

Al Naomi, senior project manager in the corps' New Orleans District, said it would cost as much as $2.5 billion to build such a system, which would likely include a massive system of gates to block the Gulf of Mexico from Lake Pontchartrain and additional levees.

If the project were fully funded and started immediately, Naomi said it could be completed in three to five years.

A project to build up the levees to withstand a Category 3 hurricane was launched in 1965 following Hurricane Betsy and was supposed to be completed in 10 years, but it remains incomplete because of a lack of funding.

In recent years, funding has dropped precipitously, which some officials attributed in part to the escalating costs of the Iraq war.

Funding for a drainage project in New Orleans went from $69 million in 2001 to $36.5 million in the current fiscal year, while funding for such hurricane-protection projects as levees around Lake Pontchartrain declined from $10 million in 2001 to $5.7 million this year, according to figures provided by the office of Sen. Mary Landrieu, D-La.

Funding for these projects has generally trended downward since at least the last years of the Clinton administration.

In Louisiana, Army Corps officials said they hoped that one break, in what's known as the 17th Street Canal, might be closed by the end of Thursday, but that a second break in the London Avenue canal is proving more intractable.

Short sections of the walls that protected the city from the waters of Lake Pontchartrain caved in under storm surges, including an area that recently had been strengthened.

Source: ContraCostaTimes.com



There is no such thing as a 'Natural Disaster' in the modern world, anymore.

madeldoe
03-09-2005, 10:12
just saw george bush try to adress the situation..he said more "UH's" than actual words :rolleyes:

freddie
03-09-2005, 14:22
This is the only disaster I won't donate money for. I gave money to UNICEF and Red Cross after the Tsunamis and famine in Niger, but not this time. It's not that I don't feel for people who've been left without anything. It's just that the US are rich as fuck. I can't understand how the wealthiest nation in the world does such a poor job at helping it's own. It's a disgrace really. :/

QueenBee
03-09-2005, 14:34
I agree with freddie. This is a horrible thing that happened, of course, but people are going waaay out of their minds. I've heard people comparing it with the tsunami, and that's just disgusting. This can absolutely not compare to the tsunami I think. The tsunami was a disaster and this is too, but somehow this seems more important and a bigger tragedy. Also, didn't everyone see it coming? I mean, weren't there any warnings beforehand?

I heard Bush speak also, and he just basically said what everyone wanted to hear.

USA is rich, I bet there will be no problem fixing this.
I hope everyone will be okay

kishkash
03-09-2005, 18:18
you know what...if i sound like a beyotch in this thread for my opinion then so be it...but i agree that these people dont' deserve a damn red cent [most of them].

You live in a place you KNOW will sink and this will happen to. Yet every time your place floods u just rebuild waiting for the next wave of disaster to hit? fucking MOVE u asshole. Its like refusing to abandon a sinking ship. Even the rats know to leave :D

Anyway that's not the reason i refuse to help these people. I can't get over the mentality of the new orleans crowd in that they ambush hospitals with guns to steal medical supplies from the critically ill. They don't allow relief helicopters to land and deliver food and supplies, so they have to drop them from a height. Then they're heard complaining on the news that they get stuff thrown at them from planes like people in third world countries. Well ur kind of ACTING like those people what do you expect.

I've never seen a city discintegrate so rapidly. Its like armageddon has hit them and the world is now chaos. When 9/11 hit, new york pretty much rallied TOGETHER to help each other. There was solidarity, the positive mob mentality. So u tell me...

marina
03-09-2005, 18:23
The US gives, rarely receives, and the most of the world hates them. Anything untrue there? The things I've often heard are that people don't hate America or Americans, they hate their leaders. Well, their leaders aren't located in New Orleans , but the attitudes about helping there either mean people in the rest of the world don't know geography or they're full of crap about not hating them.

thegurgi
03-09-2005, 18:23
yeah it's really sad to see what's happened to that city... and i could make some pretty racist statements about why (but i won't), but you have to notice which people were "left behind" ... so to speak.
The smart ones did leave and this is the result... looting and snipers? it's shameful

of course, you should hear some of the vanity of the northern states, all they care about is that most likely there won't be a Mardi Gras :rolleyes:

kishkash
03-09-2005, 18:36
The US gives, rarely receives, and the most of the world hates them
Completely true. I guess its a matter of guilt setting in for the US. They do CAUSE most of the damage, so of course they should hold the responsibility of cleaning up the shit they created.

dare2dream28
03-09-2005, 18:37
marina is absolutely right...We Americans give all the freaken time, but do we recieve? Of course not. And we're still hated. Hell, it's sad & pathetic that we help other country's people more than our own. All of the National Guard that SHOULD be here in America to help out fellow AMERICANS like their job designates them for, are in freaken IRAQ helping out the Iraqi people. Go figure.

As an American, I can't believe what's happening in N.O. First off, I know that it's crazy right now, but damn, they could at least attempt to come together like people did in New York and help each other. They have really turned into animals down there...it really is survival of the fittest right now.

I honestly think it's pointless to rebuild that city...the damage is just too much and why bother? It's just going to get flooded again in a matter of time. Plus, all the pollution there from water, chemical plants, human/animal waste/decomposing bodies, & all the other industrial pollution is going to just make it unbearable anyway.

It's a shame. I just feel bad because my uncle lived there & we haven't heard from him since before Katrina hit so we have no idea where he is or if he's even alive.

kishkash
03-09-2005, 18:41
dare2dream28 that's terrible about ur uncle i hope he is ok. And i agree with ur comments about the state of N.O it'd just become a toxic lake.

Ur statement i find funny about iraq. U don't think that coz america caused all the grief there they shouldn't stick around there sorting things out instead of just abandoning their responsibilities to help people that they can't help ANYWAY coz of snipers and looting?

Rachel
03-09-2005, 18:49
marina is absolutely right...We Americans give all the freaken time, but do we recieve? Of course not. You get back what you give to the world. And seeing as all America has ever given is pollution and death to other countries, maybe they should experience it first hand for once.

Yes, I know these are human beings and these are not the people who are the policy makers in America, but these are people are not helping themselves. They live in a state they KNOW is below sea level and even though there was warning of a hurricane coming they just sat on their butts and didn't move. Yeah, they're poor, I know. But have they never heard of walking? There was a lot of advance warning for the hurricane, if they had actually started moving as soon as the warnings started to come maybe they would be in a safe place right now. But no, what they seem to be doing is going to the nearest Walmarts to find guns so they can go around terrorising the people who are actually trying to HELP THEM!


First off, I know that it's crazy right now, but damn, they could at least attempt to come together like people did in New York and help each other. They have really turned into animals down there...it really is survival of the fittest right now. Don't you think when people behave the way they are currently doing they deserve it?

I honestly think it's pointless to rebuild that city...the damage is just too much and why bother? It's just going to get flooded again in a matter of time. Plus, all the pollution there from water, chemical plants, human/animal waste/decomposing bodies, & all the other industrial pollution is going to just make it unbearable anyway. Yeah, I agree with that - it'll just be a matter of time before the whole place is flooded again. The government needs to re-locate everyone. Expensive, I know, but American is supposed to be rich!

It's a shame. I just feel bad because my uncle lived there & we haven't heard from him since before Katrina hit so we have no idea where he is or if he's even alive.Hey I hope he's ok! :heart:

thegurgi
03-09-2005, 18:57
The sad thing about it is that N.O. had a good culture down there... it was a reknown city with a unique style and feel and all the traces of that city is gone, even with it it's own people... it's just amazing...

I think the whole thing about they should have gotten out because they know the city is under sea level... i wonder if the people in the netherlands and venice would leave in the complete risk that something would happen, i'm sure there would be people who'd stay. of course, they don't live with the risks of hurricanes)... none-the-less, i don't think it's a good rationale that they had advanced warning, in historical aspect people are stubborn especially about their homes. Besides, most of the people in this hurricane had already people been through a big hurricane before, no one was expecting this...

QueenBee
03-09-2005, 18:58
The fact that they didn't do shit when they got a warning about the hurricane is pretty stupid. I know I'd be running the fuck out of there as soon as possible. Still, natural catastrophes are always horrible, but we can only blame ourselves when we know of the risks.

Greg, I get your point also. Many have survived hurricanes before and some are even used to it, I guess it's better to be safe than sorry in these situations though. Never underestimate the power of mother nature...

I just feel bad because my uncle lived there & we haven't heard from him since before Katrina hit so we have no idea where he is or if he's even alive.
I hope your uncle is okay (and still alive...) :rose:

Kappa
03-09-2005, 19:39
Oy, I hope your uncle is okay, D2D.

All the comments in this thread remind me of one (yes, only one) comment taped by a journalist back in Mexico's great earthquake, in 1985. The city was close to destroyed, people were left without homes for over a year while rebuilding started, and many thought it was going to be useless to rebuild and start over (since like NO is on a hurricane route, Mexico is right smack on a tectonic plate :none: ) because there'd be more quakes.

And this american person only ever commented to the journalist, "They had it coming." Made my blood boil the first time I heard it, but I swear I'm trying hard not to hold the same attitude towards this very disaster.

Queenie, I survived one hurricane back when I was a kid and I wish it on nobody. :rolleyes: However, to have warnings several times before it began, and to sit on your ass waiting for shit to hit the fan is truly an irresponsible, lazy, not to mention DUMB attitude.

spyretto
03-09-2005, 20:16
Yeah, it strikes me too that they simply didn't evacuate the city. But as I don't watch television, I've seen and heard very little about this tragedy, in fact it didn't touch me at all. Sorry :bum:

thegurgi
03-09-2005, 20:20
i think the strange thing is that they DID evacuate the city... downtown N.O was evacuated..., they honestly weren't expecting the storm to go up the coast like it did...

I'm just realising something, we have a forum member from the area that was hit it's a good thing he moved...

csargen
03-09-2005, 20:21
Why do people live where there can be earthquakes? Why do people live where there can be bad weather? Why do people live on earth? Couldnt a comet hit it, how dangerous! Why do we live? To say people shouldn't live where they want to is just ridiculous... disaster will follow man whereever he goes.

As for the darkness present in New Orleans... yes it WAS a dark place, I have lived there for a year... I hear that the name Katrina means to Purify, dunno if that's true or not, but...

Also, America is like the man with the only moving car in a world of stalled cars... People will be jealous of course cause they are not moving. It doesn't make that man with the car bad, just lucky...

And also this disaster is on the level of the tsunami, you are not here to watch the local news constantly.. I live two hours from N.O. so do not speak of what you do not know.

forre
03-09-2005, 20:24
I hear that the name Katrina means to Purify.
They just start to name huricanes from A to Z by human names at the beginning of each ear on Earth. This one was number 11 major hurricaine and it got a code name on K.

thegurgi
03-09-2005, 20:25
And also this disaster is on the level of the tsunami, you are not here to watch the local news constantly.. I live two hours from N.O. so do not speak of what you do not know.
i dunno about that... this effected 4 states... in a concentrated area, the tsunami hit nearly 6 countries, countries with no way of dealing with it... the states have resourses to deal with this disaster, the tsunami hit areas didn't... they aren't comparable...

QueenBee
03-09-2005, 20:33
you are not here to watch the local news constantly..
Sadly, these days it doesn't really matter what you see on the local news, because they show you what they want you to see. In Iraq they showed people being murdered, decapitated and just awful torture, but I never heard anyone feeling sorry for their poor souls after seeing that, because no-one here actually saw it.

Like Greg said, taking a look at the statistics, the tsunami was worse (if I'm correct, but I don't see how this could be wrong), but then again people's lives aren't worth any more or less depending on what happened to you and how many. Both these are still tragedies.

The difference is that people actually knew about the hurricane beforehand...

csargen
03-09-2005, 20:45
Like Greg said, taking a look at the statistics, the tsunami was worse (if I'm correct, but I don't see how this could be wrong), but then again people's lives aren't worth any more or less depending on what happened to you and how many. Both these are still tragedies.


Maybe true, but I have personally been affected by one of these disasters and it has affected much more than just the few states hit by that storm.. the entire country has been affected in various ways... Tulane University where I attended has students from all over the world, they have all been displaced from school and work and their homes around campus had all of their things in them... luckily this is not a bad as death, but this will change ours lives forever.

volkotina
03-09-2005, 20:47
First, let me say that I am not attempting to argue with anyone here. My tone is that of calm but concerned. But I just felt like I had to respond to a few things. Again, I am not looking to get into an argument, just wanting to point out some things I feel have not been considered.

I agree with freddie. This is a horrible thing that happened, of course, but people are going waaay out of their minds. I've heard people comparing it with the tsunami, and that's just disgusting. This can absolutely not compare to the tsunami I think. The tsunami was a disaster and this is too, but somehow this seems more important and a bigger tragedy. Also, didn't everyone see it coming? I mean, weren't there any warnings beforehand?

you know what...if i sound like a beyotch in this thread for my opinion then so be it...but i agree that these people dont' deserve a damn red cent [most of them].

You live in a place you KNOW will sink and this will happen to. Yet every time your place floods u just rebuild waiting for the next wave of disaster to hit? fucking MOVE u asshole. Its like refusing to abandon a sinking ship. Even the rats know to leave

On the point of living in an area that one knows is dangerous. Well, pretty much everywhere in the US as well as other parts of the world, natural disasters can happen. If it's not hurricanes/typhoons, it's earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, tsunamis, mudslides, volcanoes, droughts, forest fires, and the list goes on and on. Yes, New Orleans is below sea level. Yes, there should have been more done to protect the levees and make them stronger than to be able to survive a Level 3 hurricane. But in the face of tragedy, what is the point of assigning blame to those who have been devastated? I could argue (but I never would) that the victims of the tsunami should have not been living there. They live on islands out in the middle of the ocean...they have no or faulty warning systems for an event that is known to cause mass destruction and loss of lives. But do I feel that for one minute that any of it is their fault or they somehow hold part of the responsibility? Of course not.

As far as comparing tragedies...honestly, when in the midst of such great death and destruction, it truly is beyond me that people nitpick what is greater.

You get back what you give to the world. And seeing as all America has ever given is pollution and death to other countries, maybe they should experience it first hand for once.

Honestly, I realize that the US has stirred up a lot of negative feelings for itself, but to say this... To argue that all that the US has given is pollution and death is grossly wrong. Look throughout history with more of an opened mind and you will surely find more than one occasion that the US has done something to contribute to the betterment of the world. Also, there is no way this is a first for the US.

Yes, I know these are human beings and these are not the people who are the policy makers in America, but these are people are not helping themselves. They live in a state they KNOW is below sea level and even though there was warning of a hurricane coming they just sat on their butts and didn't move. Yeah, they're poor, I know. But have they never heard of walking? There was a lot of advance warning for the hurricane, if they had actually started moving as soon as the warnings started to come maybe they would be in a safe place right now. But no, what they seem to be doing is going to the nearest Walmarts to find guns so they can go around terrorising the people who are actually trying to HELP THEM!

Anyway that's not the reason i refuse to help these people. I can't get over the mentality of the new orleans crowd in that they ambush hospitals with guns to steal medical supplies from the critically ill. They don't allow relief helicopters to land and deliver food and supplies, so they have to drop them from a height. Then they're heard complaining on the news that they get stuff thrown at them from planes like people in third world countries. Well ur kind of ACTING like those people what do you expect.

Firstly, many people who were still in New Orleans are poor and I do not mean kind of poor but heart achingly poor. Walk out? How could these people who are old, disabled, very young, pregnant mothers, or infants possibly walk out? And if those people could not get out, would you expect their families that love and care for them to just leave them? And to add to the problem of walking out, to where? Most of these people have their entire families living with them in New Orleans. Where do they go once they walk out of this city? Where is shelter for them? Are they just going to stay on the side of the road while a hurricane passes through? What most people don’t realize is that these people had no options. It was sink or swim.

Secondly, it is not the crowds of people who are creating such a havoc with rescue efforts. It’s smaller bands of vile people who are stealing guns, shooting at rescue workers, hurting those around them and taking disgusting advantage of a horrible situation. Most of the people there are just trying to survive another day. There have been many, many stories of people helping those around them even while they themselves are suffering. A woman on the I-10 bridge gave all of the water and food she had received from the convoys to the elderly, young, and ill. She is in the same situation as the rest, but ignored her own hunger and thirst to provide for those at even greater risk. There are plenty more of these stories and on the whole reflect the compassion of those who are stranded there.

I've never seen a city discintegrate so rapidly. Its like armageddon has hit them and the world is now chaos. When 9/11 hit, new york pretty much rallied TOGETHER to help each other. There was solidarity, the positive mob mentality. So u tell me…

I have seen several people make this analogy. The major difference here is that as horrible as September 11th was, once it ended…it ended. People were able to get in and help. There was no flood that was covering the city. The flood that has covered 89% of the city of New Orleans is the big issue here. It has trapped people. Left them without food and put them in perilous situations. It is an ongoing tragedy. Besides, there have been people rallying together as best they can in the face of such horrors. It may not be as obvious as it was after September 11th, but as I pointed out in a story above, plenty of people have banded together to care for one another.

Just want to clarify that I know a lot of fingers can be pointed at this or that. It is an easy thing to do. I, myself, feel that the US is entirely too reactionary when it comes to issues like this but way too proactive when it comes to other things. At the moment though, I feel that there will be plenty of time to argue what should have been done. Right now I just want to focus on what I can do presently.

One last thing, it is entirely your decision whether or not to give to a charity to help those affected. But just remember, if your issue is with the people of New Orleans, there are other cities in Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama that have been devastated as well. Aid will also go to these places.

Oh, and if I am responding to statements made a bit ago….it has taken me quite a bit of time to write my reply. So apologies to anyone who may have said something I have.

ETA: It is easy to say what we all would have done. But I am sure there has been at least one time in each person's life that they have done something that wasn't the smartest. And when looking back, one thinks, "Boy, was I lucky!" Sometimes luck runs out.

csargen
03-09-2005, 20:54
Speaking of September 11, it is now common knowledge here that this hurricane is the worst disaster that the US has ever faced, maybe others have not been updated to this yet.

thegurgi
03-09-2005, 21:00
i dunno how we can speculate or even say which was the worst US disaster... Sept 11th was a tragedy because we had no clue it was going to happen... it's worse because of much it's cost in damage and lives but the events on Sept 11th have effected more people world wide than this.

kishkash
03-09-2005, 21:19
Also, America is like the man with the only moving car in a world of stalled cars... People will be jealous of course cause they are not moving. It doesn't make that man with the car bad, just lucky...
are u kidding me?! :rolleyes: u must be from america huh

cirrus
03-09-2005, 21:25
I don't know... :(

It's either about racism, poverty, pointing fingers, or finding someone to blame. It's ridiculous. New Orleans is mostly a very poor, black city that is built below sea level with nothing to protect it from flooding except some pretty shitty dikes. It seems like the last thing on everyone's mind is actually coming together and helping out. I think New Orleans will rebuild but as a poor city, I doubt it will get nearly as many funds as say New York, even though far more people have died in this hurricane. It's just a shame.

freddie
03-09-2005, 21:26
I agree with Volkotina about people being poor. I mean when you have a house you've probably saved all your life to own, a rusty old car... it's kinda hard to leave it behind knowing you'd never get enough money to start all over. At moments like this poeple tend to go down with their ship rather than jumping into the ocean full of insecurities.

Originally Posted by csargen
Also, America is like the man with the only moving car in a world of stalled cars... People will be jealous of course cause they are not moving. It doesn't make that man with the car bad, just lucky...

I know what you mean. You could also say America is like a gas-guzzling SUV, tearing down anything in sight, while other "drivers/nations" jealously look at them from their fuel-efficient and environment friendly Honda Civics. :p

*gets green with envy*

Bitty2002
03-09-2005, 21:35
You know, I almost want to cry. I may not be proud of some of the things my country has done...but the heartlessness that some of you have just displayed...and hypocrisy!

EDIT: to remove undeserved statement to Freddie.

These are people, humans. You heartless people. They aren’t just us citizens. They are the unfortunate. You say you don’t like what the us stands for. Well, you know what. These are the people the represent everything the US sucks at. Our poor, our hungry, our races that have fallen wayside. If you are so high and mighty, your ways so enlightened, prejudice and hate free, mistake free, THESE are the people you should want to embrace and protect.

To say that anyone one human deserves any harm to befall them because of your disagreement with their government…HOW DARE YOU!? HOW? How can you say this. You saying that shows you to be scourge of why this earth fucking sucks! You say that Bush is a retarded moron who is fucking up the world. I won’t argue. Well, guess what. It has taken how many days to get these people out. Maybe he’s fucking up here too. To say “we won’t help, they have money, they are a shitty country” as your excuse to scoff and turn your head on suffering HUMANS…when maybe they need you the most, because as you say, Bush sucks. Because we happen to be at the top of the totem pole, people who live here somehow deserve tragedy. Because I was born here, or my aunt, who happened to live in New Orleans, deserve to die, because you don’t like my countries policy? Are you fucking shitting me? I didn’t ask for my genetic material to mix and become one on this latitude and longitude. No one does.

So are you saying that any country where policy and culture is pathetic should be ignored? So what about countries that beat women and ignore it? Countries where corruption is obviously the policy? Etc. etc. I cold go on. Don’t tell me your country is so enlightened. Oh could I go through your histories and your present news and issues and expose all that you righteous bastards stand for. You know, I debated moving to another country, because mine seemed to be so hated. But thought, what’s the point? After talking to everyone internationally online, I’ve learned one thing. All countries fucking suck! The only difference is that the US is in the spotlight, on the top of the totem pole.

You say you all hate us, but you keep buying and relying on our shit, you hypocrites. The US is like pop music. Everyone bitches about it. Everyone says it sucks and it is stupid. And yet somehow, it manages to be one of the top industries, raking in billions. Those same grumblers are shelling out. You put us here just as you put Britney Spears on the charts. You made your bed now you lie in it.

And we all must remember how the US was founded. It was everything “enlightened” taken from all countries around the world. WE are YOU. These people are your people. So you hate the government that controls them…don’t hate the people who live under it. And to say the US has contributed nothing. I am sorry, but I beg to differ. We may be far from perfect, and we are, but we have given this world a philosophy of individual liberty. And to argue against that or to say that that wasn’t a good thing…is stupid.

So, this people were stupid, they should have left. Not everyone is so wise are you or has such forethought. Many people have been through this before, they thought they could again. Many people simply did not have the means. So we are the richest country? We still have extreme poverty, capitalism is a bitch. We reply so heavily on cars in the US that alternate means of transport are rare. ANY transportation costs money. You say, walk out. How far? Where do these people go then? Money for a hotel? Money for food? You know, if all you have and own in in four small walls, some people can’t let it out of their sights. Their entire livelihood depends on those few items. To walk away…to somewhere. Some people didn’t want to take the gamble. Some people, like everything, simply don’t think it could happen to them. And some people didn’t have fucking TV’s! They had 24 hours! And that isn’t even the point. Even if someone is stupid, brought it on themselves, do they deserve to suffer and die? Huh? Ask you perfect, enlightened humanitarian selves that!

And I am no patriot. I am speaking for man. And the heartlessness some of you have displayed in the face of suffering man. Fuck you, you disgraces. YOU make me lose faith in humanity. Ironic, no?

forre
03-09-2005, 21:40
Bitty2002 has a vew points here, so try to cool down. Try not to show your worse sides. Give us the best of you, ok?

I guess if US needs help, it will ask for it and there're resources to provide this help. Normally countries are good at helping if disaster happens.

freddie
03-09-2005, 21:46
Errr... I don't think I ever said they DESERVE anyhting like this, or that it isn't unfortunate that this happened to them. I'm even defending these people infront of those who say they should have moved from there. Anyway...

.. all I'm saying is that III won't give money for the relief effort, like I did for the Tsunamis or the Niger Famine, but not because I don't FEEL for the people who got hit, but because I think the US goverment has more than enough funds to handle the situation. I said NOTHING about the ideology or whatever. It's not even RELATED to this. It's just the fact that the country in question that was hit has enough money to help the relief effort all on their own. I'd say the same of France or Germany was hit. Those are all developed nations with well established infrastructure and releif-plans to handle the situations. All the viewpoints I might have towards the Bush administration are completely seperate issues from the fact these people need help and another fact that their goverment should have helped them by now.

Edit:
I looked back at my posts and I really don't see anywhere where I might have said anything that might triggered your response Bitty, since I was the one pointed out. I never said or implied anything which you expose in your post. I never said anything about the people deserving this tragedy either. No one deserves this.
Edit2:
Wait... you changed your post around a bit. Makes more sense now, yeah. Well... I explained my issue with funds. I just feel they have plenty to go around. Because they REALLY do. I'm sure what's happening right now isn't due to the lack of funds. They have my sympathies... no different than the tsunami victims... I just judged that those people who were living in near 3rd world countries wouldn't make it without international help, while I think New Orleans will.

csargen
03-09-2005, 21:46
I sympathize with your aunt Bitty...

I don't know what you mean by world wide Greg... There was NY and terrorists from other countries? How does that make it more world wide? NY has people from around the world, just as New Orleans does.

My college Tulane University in N.O. is ranked in the top 50 colleges in the WORLD...There are many international students who are now or were stranded in random US cities until the storm passed. They had homes around campus during school, those homes are now destroyed. New Orleans is known for being a VERY international place.

When the tsunami hit in the east, students at Tulane lost family in the area, my school responded by sending teams of people to help out in this disaster. We were very informed of that disasters extent simply from people at the school who CAME to study in New Orleans from those devestated areas...

These SAME students are now displaced throughout the US and are the ones in need now.They chose to live in New Orleans out of all the cities in the world for a reason. But now the rest of the world is not there?? It's ridiculous.. people's reactions are rooted in darkness.

You can be certain that no one anywhere, rich or poor, is safe from disaster and that the people here in the states DO take note of the world's reaction. America is loaded with money, and N.O. will be rebuilt quicker than anyone can imagine. Maybe this time, without so much of the darkness and crime that infected it before.

P.S. Lets not be Lyudi Invalidy.. I have a few friends from Russia who are now in Houston deciding whether they should go back home or try to find another college in the US.. Another friend of mine who has family in area that was hit by the tsunami in those dark times is now taking a fall semester at a college in NY...

QueenBee
03-09-2005, 21:51
droughts
Sorry for being non-English, but what's a drought? :confused:

nath
03-09-2005, 21:51
The US gives, rarely receives, and the most of the world hates them
I absolutely agree with that .
the positive mob mentality.
About Mob Mentality, I wonder why this expression is never attribuated to all those African Leaders who are systematically disturning the huge money/subventions that USA and Europe give to rescue the african peoples......they prefer to see their own people dying because they keep the money in their pockets and scream " America doesn't give a sh*t about us (My God!...how am I speaking since I'm on tatysite ! :eek: ;) )......they 'e right : it's a more mediatic, more fascionable.. !!!!! :D

Somebody asked me some times ago : "Why Africa is always so poor ?"......... :cool: ...just try to find a connection in looking into the systematical connection : their leaders/Corruption....

Sorry to be old fashion here....but I have more respect for the leaders of the States ...even if they have faults than for a lot of African leaders: because ...even if they kill...they have the decency to try to kill other peoples when African leaders.....sorry ....but have NO respect , NO decency for their own people....and have the speciallity to kill their own populations in priority!

QueenBee
03-09-2005, 21:59
even if they kill...they have the decency to try to kill other peoples when African leaders.....sorry ....but have NO respect , NO decency for their own people....and have the speciallity to kill their own populations in priority!
But, does it really matter *who* you kill? In my opinion, when it comes to killing it shouldn't be "our people" - "their people", because just because these people aren't part of your country, doesn't mean it's better to kill them than to kill your "own" people. The world is a big blob of dirt, rock and lava that has through time been split up in different pieces, but the humans, are humans.

Bitty2002
03-09-2005, 22:01
Errr... I don't think I ever said they DESERVE anyhting like this, or that it isn't unfortunate that this happened to them. I'm even defending these people infront of those who say they should have moved from there. Anyway...

I am not saying you said all of those things above. I was responding to the general feel. But I do know how you feel about the US, and do know there was some underlying feelings there. I just didn't want to read ANYTHING remotely like what some of these people have said to come from your mouth. It hurt. At that moment, you were one of them. I was mad and disappointed Freddie, sorry. EDIT: all be honest, I misread you a bit. I was emotional, still am.

My main point is that people just don't realize that they are displaying everything they hate about the US in how they are acting. They think they can turn their noses up to US policy, because they are better than. I think it is laughable, that these people, THESE people above think THEY are better than. After reading what they have written I would think they were American.

People need to face the music, look at themselves in the mirror and realize they are just as pathetic and have NO RIGHT to stand so tall and high, until they deserve it.


Queenbee - A drought is when it hasn't rained in a very long time and earth begins to scorch and food can no longer grow. It can destory entire farming communities. And entire countries that rely on those communities for food.

nath
03-09-2005, 22:09
But, does it really matter *who* you kill? In my opinion, when it comes to killing it shouldn't be "our people" - "their people", because just because these people aren't part of your country, doesn't mean it's better to kill them than to kill your "own" people. The world is a big blob of dirt, rock and lava that has through time been split up in different pieces, but the humans, are humans.
If you knew me a little more you'd know I use very often "black humour".....but indeed...there is a little difference....if you read on the newspapers "A woman has killed a children", you'd react by saying "Oh ! It's horrible!"....but if you 'd read "A woman has killed her own children"...you would find no words to express your emotion...

To resume...what I realy think is that a lot of people, instead of reading some news by this side and that side....should take the time to take a Good History Book (of course we can debate about what is a Good History Book.... :rolleyes: ) to get a Global Vision about history throught the centuries and the different civilizations....cause I'm really worried to see how people become more and more ignorant about history in general.

QueenBee
03-09-2005, 22:13
Kanye West's speech [about the hurricane]:

"I hate the way they portray us in the media. We see a black family that says they're looting. We see a white family that says they're looking for food & you know it's been five days because most of the people are black & even for me to complain about I would be a hyprocrite because I try to turn away from the TV because it's too hard to watch. I've even been shopping before even giving a donation, so now I'm calling my business manager right now to see what's the biggest amount that I can give. And just to imagine if I was down there, those are my people down there, so anybody out there that wants to do anything with the setup the way America is setup to help the poor, the black people, the less well off as slow as possible. I mean the Red Cross is doing everything they can. We already realize that a lot of the people that can help are at war right now fighting another way and they've given them permission to go down & shoot us."

At the end, he adds: "George Bush doesn't care about black people."
The look on Mike Myers' face is priceless.

---

KANYE WEST PISSES ME OFF.

Video:
http://s21.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2B7PGD5JPMB9K1IY0ZNVBGV96A
http://s33.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2O6ACRLNVNH712HYPCJJSZW58F
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=03J3DUVJ
http://rapidshare.de/files/4664387/kanye_no_rant.qt.html

I got this from a community on LiveJournal, I haven't seen the video myself though (downloading).

And of course, it's already funny:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8331709210

Nath, sorry to have not understood your post. :( I do understand what you mean about the difference of killing randomly and killing your own (I think the problem is here that leaders often don't seem to care about their own people... but that's a different story).

Queenbee - A drought is when it hasn't rained in a very long time and earth begins to scorch and food can no longer grow. It can destory entire farming communities. And entire countries that rely on those communities for food.
Ooooooh I get it now! I was trying to guess what it was, but I wasn't even close.. :bum:
Thanks for the explanation :rose:

csargen
03-09-2005, 22:26
Kanye West: Not my friend...

freddie
03-09-2005, 22:40
I am not saying you said all of those things above. I was responding to the general feel. But I do know how you feel about the US, and do know there was some underlying feelings there. I just didn't want to read ANYTHING remotely like what some of these people have said to come from your mouth. It hurt. At that moment, you were one of them. I was mad and disappointed Freddie, sorry. EDIT: all be honest, I misread you a bit. I was emotional, still am.

Yeah but you see... those underlying feelings might they exist or not have absolutely NOTHING in common with this thing that happened. At least with me. It's a natural disaster, which is by default removed from any kind of politic agenda. When it comes to hurt and suffering people are people. No Americans, Europeans, Orientals or whatever. And I think most of the people contributing to this thread feel the same, you know? All they really criticized was the inability of people to retreat on time (I gave my explanation why they didn't anyway). No one said they deserve this cause they're american.

EDIT:

Kanye West... well... that was a bit rash. It probably has some more to do with the social status of these people, rather than race. There are many poor people living in these regions. If it is an issue, I don't think it's strickly a racial one.

Bitty2002
03-09-2005, 22:48
As for the racial issue... I honestly think this is a class issue more than a race issue. Where racism comes in is that due to racism, more black people are in poverty. But in this case you see so many black people because one, a lot of black people live in New Orleans, and two, the upper class white folk had enough money to spare to take the gamble and get out. (by gamble I mean, spend what little money you have on the chance that you could be hit hard). Those that were poor, were left.


Queenbee - not to speak for Nath, I'm sure she can herself. But to add my perspective. Now, like you said, killing is killing, no difference. I agree. However, in this case, many people are saying hateful things because deep down they hate the US and its policies. This is a governmental issue. Governments are set up to create protections for its people. It allows society to function. We see right now what happens when structure disappears, small numbers of people begin mayhem for many. It is a government's duty to protect, stabilize society. It is shameful when a government actually attacks its own people because it is going against its very nature and purpose. Her analogy- a mother's duty is to protect her children, for her to kill her own children is not only killing, but also a failure to one's duty. It is a double offense.

Bitty2002
03-09-2005, 23:02
No Freddie, some people said or implied "we" as in the people who live in the US, got what we deserved, all we have contributed is pollution, yes? And, this is a common sentiment, not just on here. But I have found on here that many people think they are so righteous. I simply don't know where they get off.

As for you, well, I was disappointed. Maybe you had no intentions behind your words that were towards policy or malicious, and I believe that is probably true, you are a good person. However, you were one of the first to post and helped to set the tone (whether accidental or not) for this thread, and then proceeded not to argue with the hateful things people posted after you. Not your job to jump on people, you are not forum moral police, lol, but it still bothered me that it didn't bother you enough to stand up and say something.

And, just to argue your thinking, Mitja. On one hand you say that this country is messed up (not your words, I know) and on the other you say that we can take care of ourselves. How does that match? You think we are fucked, but capable? You say we don't know our butt from our face, but we can mobilize and help these people? It's been how many days, and people are being locked in the stadium? People are dying of heat and starvation in this country you think can take care of itself? Maybe you think too much of us while hating (yes a strong word, sorry my vocab is limited at the moment) us? It is funny... don't you think?

And I am sorry everyone. You can hide behind your innocence and words, but let's be honest. If this were another country and people were poor or made dumb decisions to stay, the reaction would be different. It is because it is the US, and the people HERE made stupid or helpless decisions. You cannot tell me that this country is the only country with warning systems and weather channels. You cannot tell me that other countries haven't had losses in natural disasters. Don’t hide behind technicalities. I can't put it into words, but there is something there that no one wants to face. Like prejudice, you use other excuses. It is like a racist saying, ‘now now, I'm not racist, I don't hate black people, I just don't want them moving in my neighborhood, because I don't like their music and clothes. ’

EDIT; and you do realize there were people taking advantage of the tsunami to sell children to slave rings, right?

Edit2: People were told to go to the super dome, that they would be safe there. Has anyone lives through a level 4 hurricane? Do you know what it is like? So, you know it will probably flood, it has flooded before, you just went upstairs, held on tight. I think it is clear that no one knew, truly knew, how bad it was going to be. Even with the warning. There have been warnings before. Let's give you a senario. You are sitting in your home, watching the news. SUddenly an alert comes up saying, a big hurrican is probably on its way. You look at the tv an go, hmm. Another hurricane, damn I hate what that does to the weather. You go back to your computer, or let's make you lower class poverty, you can back to your dirty chair, the only one you have, and btw, you are lucky you have a tv and cable to see the weather channel. A few more hours pass and the news is getting more insistent. Hmm, maybe this is a big hurricane. I'm scared. You start to box your few things up nd head up to the attic. It takes hours, but you think you've secured more things. You sit back to watch the news some more. It's getting closer now. Your kids are scared. You think about getting out...should I? You check your bank account, $50. That was going to pay for groceries. It may pay for a bus...for your kids too? (btw, airports were closed, buses stopped running, it was taking seven hours for people lucky enough to have cars to get out) What if this storm passes? What if I just spent my last few dollars for nothing, now Ihave no money for food and now I am in another city, where I don't know anyone and don't have the money for a hotel. What do I do with my kids. Well...I'll go to the super dome, take them there, we'll walk across town to there. They say it will be safe. The storm hits, everything you owned is destroyed, but you huddle together with your family at the dome...days have passed, you have no air, no food, no water. They said I'd be safe here.

Maybe they should have known better. It is their fault they were in this situation. Why didn't they get out? Those are great questions after the fact. But it is just that, after the fact.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Have I effectively killed this thread?

simon
04-09-2005, 00:51
Why do people hate the United States so much? It has many faults, but it hasn't given the world "nothing but pollution and death". It gave the modern world the idea of representative democracy, which probably would otherwise have died out after the failure of the French Revolution. It saved Europe from German domination in World War I, from Nazi tyranny in World War II and Soviet tyranny in the Cold War. America has often failed to live up to its own ideals, not least in that it didn't extend democracy to blacks in the Southern states until 1965, but it least it has ideals.

1.3 million people lived in the New Orleans metroplitan area, 600,000 of them in New Orleans itself. It's estimated that about 100,000 people didn't evacuate, nearly all of them in New Orleans itself (other parts of the metropolitan area have been fllooded, but the population had left). The reason, as Bitty2002 explained, was that they couldn't. Evacuation was possible for people with cars, but not for those without. There wasn't anything like enough public transport provided for the over 100,000 people without access to cars.

New Orleans is one of the least wealthy cities in the US. 63% of the population was black. The people who got left behind were mostly the poorest and well over 90% black. Other groups that got left behind were the very old, the disabled, the ill and tourists.

I don't think people should have lived in New Orleans, it was a disaster waiting to happen, but I'm not going to blame them for doing so. As Bitty2002 said, people don't choose where they get born.

When the evacuation order was given, Katrina was a category 5 hurricane headed straight for New Orleans. It was estimated that 50,000 people would die because a direct hit by a category 5 would have destroyed nearly all the buildings and caused the levees to fail catastrophically, flooding the city in minutes. I have to say that anyone who remained in their home and if they couldn't leave the city didn't try to go to the Superdome or the Convention Center was either hopelessly ill-informed or stupid. At the last minute, a wind diverted the centre of the hurricane to Gulfport and weakened it to a category 4. (As it happens, the roof of the Superdome nearly came off, so it wasn't as safe as thought - if a category 5 had hit, it would have come off and casualties in New Orleans would have been well above 50,000.)

The people who have suffered most are those at the bottom of American society. It's quite true that a lot of criminals took advantage of the breakdown of law to loot, rape and murder. But saying that the victims don't deserve help because a relatively small number have behaved in that way is appalling. A lot of people are at the bottom of society just because of their race and circumstances. They are the victims of the criminals. Blaming the victim is a common psychological reaction, but it's not fair.

Unfortunately that does seem to have been the attitude of the authorities. The US is normally fairly efficient at dealing with disasters, so it's incredible that it took 5 days to send food and water to the people at the Superdome and the Convention Center. It's also incredible that 1500 people were plucked from rooftops by helicopters, but then abandoned in a field with no food, no water and no shelter. Over a hundred of them have died. The state and federal authorities have both been extremely negligent. It's clear that Louisiana didn't have a plan for how to deal with this predictable emergency and didn't care to improvise one afterwards. It's also clear that the director of the Federal Emergency Management Administration and President Bush were extremely complacent, saying that everything was being done when in fact very little was being done.

Kappa
04-09-2005, 01:24
Why do people hate the United States so much?

While I can say I don't hate the States at all, I do look at them with a very cynical eye. You can blame it on my country's president having his head firmly embeded up Bush's ass. Mexico has been under the thumb of USA's leaders since before I was born, while it could be a perfectly self sufficient country were it not just south of the States.

I strongly wish for all the people who lost it all, from white to black people, from rich to poor, from young to old, to recover and be relocated happily to another state. I however, have my own country's constant disasters and need for help to worry about. I don't think anybody from America (or anywhere else) gave a shit that the VERY SAME storm that did this to NO, along with two more tropical storms, have been wrecking total havok on Mexico. There's complete towns gone to hell down here, towns with an equivalent index of poverty and the same amount of indigenous population (as compared to black population) NO had. These people have no National Guard to relocate them, hell, most of them don't even have the means of communication to be warned about an oncoming flood.

You don't hear about them in the news because it's not important to anyone. Figures, people all over the world die of hunger, of disease, of natural disasters, and the States "come over and make it all okay" (MY SKINNY WHITE SLAVIC RUMP, they do). But the States get hit by ONE of these totally unexpected natural disasters, a town is gone, and the rest of the world is a villain for refusing to cooperate. What does it take for people to realize that we don't hate Americans, but what the "great American nation" does to our countries in exchange for help that most of the time rarely gets there anyway?

Sob. Whine. End of story. If you're gonna cooperate, cooperate, if you're not gonna, then don't. People died and people have lost it all, show some sympathy regardless of their goddamn nationality.

Bitty2002
04-09-2005, 02:05
Darje - You are missing a huge point. There is a double/reverse prejudice here. You speak as if the US people are spouting off demanding help, then turning their back to other tragedy. I personally haven't spouted off demanding help. Help who you want. However, when someone says, good riddance, or they got what they deserved, that is different than simply not reacting or not helping.

What you are saying is the mentality that only hurts humanity. If I am being dragged down, I will drag you down with me. Or because my country gets neglected, your country should get neglected. What is happening in Mexico and around the world is HORRIBLE. But that doesn't mean that what happened here wasn't horrible.

You know, the country that brought tears to my eyes yesterday? Sri Lanka offerred help. Those that were still trying to recover from their own enormous disaster, put out a helping hand. Why can't life be more like that everywhere? Why can't sympathies go out to everyone, to any pain equally. Believe, Darje, I do understand what you are saying. I HATE when american news reports a bombing in another country saying, 100 people died, 2 were American. As if those two are somehow more important. Believe me, I understand. But it doesn't make it right to want suffering to be equal. That just because this doesn't happen everyday, that tragedies here aren't worth the pain people feel, or worth helping.

But you know... maybe one day terrorists will bomb the US, or nuclear war will break out, or a dumbass president will destroy our economy, or a sly little Hitler will work his way into our government and bring the US down. Then everyone will be happy that we are suffering. Maybe we can have more tragedies and the countries we have estranged and made bitter will turn their backs on us, and we wallow in pain, our cries unheard, like the cries in Mexico go unheard, etc. Our pain will be like your pain and everyone will be at peace that at least the pain is equal. While that scares me, and I would hate to lose all the nice luxuries and freedoms I have been afforded in this life for being lucky enough to be born here...at least it will make other people happier. At least it will make the bitterness go away. Maybe some day...we only have to wait. I am sure US won't be on top forever. I've heard China's working its way up. But, then again, it would be nice if no one was on top, but that is how the world seems to work. Maybe China or other will do a better job, have better ideals, provide better philosophies, forms of government and economy. Maybe someday life will be better.

Kappa
04-09-2005, 02:11
I'm not happy there's people suffering, Bitty. A great many of my friends live in the States, and I'm not happy that they're unhappy with their economy as well. My point was more about having people stop complaining that since they don't support the way the US have behaved, they also don't care about the suffering of people. It's horrible when an event of this magnitude becomes a wah-fest.

madeldoe
04-09-2005, 03:16
although i think its a little heartless that so many people wouldnt open their wallets. i honestly dont blame them. people knew that the levee's were shit and they knew that where they were living was very dangerous, why didn't anyone do anything? i think we all know the answer to that.

all im saying is, if there was an 8.0 earhquake here in SF [which is bound to happen VERY soon] i would like to think that there are people out there willing to help. so i gave in my weeks paycheck. its not much, but i know it'll help someone out.

right now tho, all of my anger is directed at the gov [once again :rolleyes: ] everyone was so up there ass in Homeland Security that they cut funding for FEMA [Federal Emergency Management Agency] or actually completely dispersed of it to make room for all the Homeland Security shit that we just had to have. so with BILLIONS spent on Homeland Security, why did it take so damn long for gov. help? because all the help [national guard] is in iraq. *sigh* if there is anyone to chastise in this case,it is george bush and his administration.


about kanye west. i agree with him. if you see the news right now, all the people that they show still stranded are mostly black people. guess who's taking up the hospital and shelter space? its sad really.

another thing that is pissing me off lately are all the stupid telethons by all the celebrities. why waste the time on a telethon when all of these stupid celebrities could just donate 5% of their income. IDIOTS!

PowerPuff Grrl
04-09-2005, 03:28
The hell?

I don't think Americans are crying to the world to pay attention to this. In fact, I heard George Bush say no to over 20 countries offering help, of course, God forbid Bush shows weakness. News stations aren't having people from other countries giving their condolenses, Americans couldn't a give a shit what other people have to say right now, and rightfully so.
But turning on the tv all I hear from Americans is "why haven't our Gov't responded quickly." Is it wrong for Americans to care about their own people? Just because they don't normally care about others they shouldn't care whatsoever about their own?

It is one thing for the gov't to warn people to evacuate the city, but to offer no means to actually leave for the people most vulnerable is genuinely despicable. When asked why he couldn't leave in time a man said that he tried but all of the rental car agenies were out of service,and the airports were closed. Considering practically 100,000 people in NO have no cars the gov't pretty much abandoned them.

As much as I hate Kanye West for being a self centred, lattern shaped head asswipe I totally agree with his comments. Aside from being from the US totally being unprepared, the media's disproportionate amount of coverage of looting is disgusting. When people haven't eaten in five days and there is no clue of help coming in, taking food from grocery stores is NOT LOOTING. When you have been waiting patiently for five days without food or water sitting on your roof, signalling helicopters with flags only to find ever single one pass on over you shooting up in the air and not at the helicopters to get the pilot's attention does not mean you're a sniper shooter, it means you are fucking desparate. No helicopter was shot down.

I just hope to God that this will be the shit that will bring down the Republican party's support in the South... oh, who am I kidding?

dare2dream28
04-09-2005, 03:48
Ur statement i find funny about iraq. U don't think that coz america caused all the grief there they shouldn't stick around there sorting things out instead of just abandoning their responsibilities to help people that they can't help ANYWAY coz of snipers and looting?

Oh I totally believe that if we cause shit, we need to clean it up. I'm just mad that we caused it. LOL However, regardless of what people say, there were reasons behind Saddam's capture, even if we don't know the whole truth behind it (and NO I am not 100% supporting Bush! For the love of pete, I don't like that man!)

You get back what you give to the world. And seeing as all America has ever given is pollution and death to other countries, maybe they should experience it first hand for once.

Oh come on now, that's a little much. You have to admit that America has done at least some good for other countries by donating lots and lots of money, food, etc. We're not all bad.

But I totally agree with you Ice_Cream when you say the people should have moved...they knew I think 3 days in advance. They should have started walking. And no, they're not helping themselves by acting like animals. I totally agree.

Anyways, thanks everyone for your regards to my uncle. :) :rose: Thankfully, we heard from him today. He made it on a bus to San Antonio, Texas. He lost everything, but at least he's alive.

Bitty2002
04-09-2005, 04:16
I hope everyone knows I am not thinking people should open their wallets. I just don't think hateful people should open their mouths. Just wanted to make that clear.

And just to defend celebrities a bit. I think they could give more. But a lot of celebrities do give 5% of their income to things like this. They also give their time and fame to make that amount even higher. But yes, there are plenty of famous people out there that don't give a cent.

PowerPuff_Grrl - I heard George Bush say no to over 20 countries offering help Just to say...they haven't, unless it was in the last few minutes, rejected any offers of help. They haven't accepted them yet either. At the moment, while inept, I think we have things covered. I think, at the moment, it is more of an issue of what help will with need and what we will be able to use, and it will probably be used at that time. Does that make sense? Believe me, I certainly hope it is not pride.

And I do think America cares about other countries. Maybe their ideologies and methods are to be abhorred and uninvited, but I think the intention is often good.

And the whole Iraq situation shouldn't be AT ALL related to this tragedy. And those who like to belabor that, over and over, what do you want? I hate it too. But you have two options, shit and shit. No one else was helping the people of Iraq. Let the corruption continue? Maybe we aren't making it a land of greatness and freedom, but what was the alternative, truly? Talk about a rock and a hard place. Either way, the situation is shit. Maybe these countries that have better ideologies and methods should have stepped in a long time ago.

And not everyone in New Orleans is acting like animals. Some stupid f***kers that should be shot are. Don't lump all the victims into one group of animals.

And Ice_Cream, I didn't want to respond to you, but every time I read your hateful words...I cannot believe my eyes. I have to say your comment was the shittiest of them all. Governments suck and are corrupt, you don't have to be. What has your country given to the world? Does Europe not pollute and bring death? Do Europeans not have corruption in government? Do they not have prejudices, high ideals that fall short? So we have SUV's, which I think should be banned, and Europeans drive beaters that don't have up-to-date emission standards. Are you really so perfectly righteous as to think you don't bring pollution and death to this world? You know, all countries bring pollution and death because all countries are run by humans--the ultimate parasite. So really, if your reasoning stands, no humans should be helped, no disasters aided, because all disaster is deserved because all humans bring death and pollution. So, is that the way you propose we live? Who says what you said in the face of so much death? I am appalled. Shame on you. You should examine yourself

madeldoe
04-09-2005, 04:42
And the whole Iraq situation shouldn't be AT ALL related to this tragedy. And those who like to belabor that, over and over, what do you want? I hate it too. But you have two options, shit and shit. No one else was helping the people of Iraq. Let the corruption continue? Maybe we aren't making it a land of greatness and freedom, but what was the alternative, truly? Talk about a rock and a hard place. Either way, the situation is shit. Maybe these countries that have ideologies and methods should have stepped in a long time ago.




i think it is alot related to this situation because all the money thats gone to the so called "War in Terror" and Homeland Security could have gone to FEMA, which once was a powerful independent agency focused solely on responding to earthquakes, floods, hurricanes and other natural disasters. The Department of Homeland Security sends $1.1 billion each year to states to combat terrorism, but just $180 million to help prepare for disasters such as Katrina. Imagine what that money could do now?

"There are no emergency managers at any level in the Department of Homeland Security. It's all law enforcement," said George Haddow, former FEMA deputy chief of staff. "It doesn't look like anyone's in charge to me because the system has been deconstructed."

Bitty2002
04-09-2005, 06:09
i think it is alot related to this situation because all the money thats gone to the so called "War in Terror" and Homeland Security could have gone to FEMA, which once was a powerful independent agency focused solely on responding to earthquakes, floods, hurricanes and other natural disasters. The Department of Homeland Security sends $1.1 billion each year to states to combat terrorism, but just $180 million to help prepare for disasters such as Katrina. Imagine what that money could do now?

"There are no emergency managers at any level in the Department of Homeland Security. It's all law enforcement," said George Haddow, former FEMA deputy chief of staff. "It doesn't look like anyone's in charge to me because the system has been deconstructed."


Hindsight is 20/20. I don't support this stupid ass war. I hate Bush. The government should have done a lot of things better. But apparently, because our government made some stupid choices, it is okay that the people in NO are suffering? And I know you aren't saying that, it was rhetorical.


Btw, people keep saying people should have walked. HELLO! Do you know how long the bridge outta there is? It alone is about 30 miles long. Where the hell are these poor people supposed to go once they cross that long-ass bridge? Cause it isn't any safer on the other side. You'd have to keep on walking. With your four month old baby, elderly grandma, and your six year old? Just keep walking, about 40-100 miles? Really? You up for that? The first notice you got of a hurricane coming, and mind you, when you live on the Gulf, you get A LOT of warnings, would you pack up a suitcase, leave everything, your job, stuff, etc. to start on a numerous day hike to god knows were? Then when you finally get there, where do you spend the night?

Please people stop saying they should have walked out, I will pull out my hair and scream.

As for people shouldn't live there, it was inviting danger. Please. Everywhere has its issues. I live by two mountains that supposedly are quiet, but any day could erupt. Half of CA could fall off one day. The people in the tsunami region should have known that would happen and not lived there?

Now, should our governments prepare for things better? YES! But that is a governmental issue, not to be blamed on these unfortunates!

spyretto
04-09-2005, 12:06
Well, if you're being bombarded daily about the tragedy in the end you get anesthetised
about it. If that happened in the third world it would have maybe occupied the media for a few days. But it happened in the U.S so you can multiply that by 20 times, and then you're beginning to get a grasp of the media attention. :rolleyes:
So as this wasn't caused by any human hand and it was a natural catastrophy, If people want to donate money to the poor it's very welcome but I don't see why this should be considered so much more impotant than tragedies that occured all over the world, because it happened to be in the U.S.A.
Maybe some of the Hollywood stars who're making ridiculous amounts of money can get together and donate some for the tragedy. Or the U.S. government itself who has quite the recources to sort out moments of crisis can do the same. Yeah people who are on the minimum wage will probably do so as well but I'd expect that the wealth and powerful get to it first - so I basically agree to everything that freddie said before.
And hello, how does this relate to the U.S foreign policy at all? Or was it yet another opportunity for people to rekindle the tired argument again?
As to why people hate the United States so much maybe the Americans who are so wound up about this should ask the same question to themselves. There's a Greek saying that goes by the words of "do the good thing and throw it in the ocean"; it means do something good and don't expect to get something in return. If the Americans think that because they help around the world as the wealthiest and strongest country that they are they can basically do whatever they want in their own way without giving a damn about the consequences or what anybody else would think just because it is "righteous" in their own way of thinking, they shouldn't expect that it'd go down very well with the rest. This arrogance and narrowmindedness is basically the cause of the antipathy that people who have not invested interests in the U.S. have towards them. "You're either with us or without us" is quite an exemplification of that arrogance.
And don't start telling me that you've changed because you haven't. The U.S. government was behind that failed coup d'etat in Venezuela, wasn't it. So they're basically trying to do the same things again and nothing has changed, only now thay've got a firm and more tangible rationale to justify their actions. If I were an American I'd be very concerned about the way my government continues to conduct its foreign policy; even more so, if I were a supporter of George W. Bush. :bum:

Rachel
04-09-2005, 14:24
And Ice_Cream, I didn't want to respond to you, but every time I read your hateful words...I cannot believe my eyes.What have I said that's been any difference to anyone else?!


I have to say your comment was the shittiest of them all. Governments suck and are corrupt, you don't have to be.Erm....what the fuck about me is corrupt?!! I think you're looking for something that isn't there!


What has your country given to the world? Does Europe not pollute and bring death?Does the G8 ring any bells?!! Your leader does not give a FUCKING SHIT about what damage pollution is doing to the world!! He only cares that immoral business men are getting a few extra bucks!!! :bebebe:


Are you really so perfectly righteous as to think you don't bring pollution and death to this world? Which country was in charge of going to Iraq?! The only reason we were that was because our prime minister is so far up George Bush's slimy ass so we didn't have a choice. Only 10% of British people actually agreed to the war in Iraq. *A LOT* more Americans agreed with it because the majority of them are dumb enough to believe the propaganda and hysteria George Bush shits out of his mouth.


You know, all countries bring pollution and death because all countries are run by humans--the ultimate parasite.Yeah, but at least some countries try!

I remember around the time of Live 8 there was some reporter going around New York asking everyone whether they thought the Africans should be helped. The reporter asked about 20 people, only 2 people said something should be done. The problem is the majority of Americans only care about themselves. They're only happy if they're stomachs are full and they're driving around in their big trucks. :bebebe:


So really, if your reasoning stands, no humans should be helped, no disasters aided, because all disaster is deserved because all humans bring death and pollution.If you think I seriously said that there's no point even replying to you because you are twisting my fucking words!

So, is that the way you propose we live?I propose for Americans to become more humane, coz until the majority of them do I'm certainly not putting my hand in my pocket for some ignorant Americans that thought nothing could beat them so they sat on their fat asses and didn't move. Nothing but stupidity!!!


I am appalled. Shame on you. You should examine yourselfWow...Bitty is appalled by me...*commits suicide* LMAO I don't give a shit what you think!!

Wooaahhh, time to flame Rachel! :p

spyretto
04-09-2005, 14:38
I think you're getting a bit out of hand people and that's understandable as talking about politics can create that effect... but where is forre?? foreeeeeeee! put some order in here. pleeeeease!

Rachel
04-09-2005, 14:54
I think you're getting a bit out of hand people and that's understandable as talking about politics can create that effect... You can't expect me not to react when there's a post directed at me!

spyretto
04-09-2005, 14:59
You can't expect me not to react when there's a post directed at me!

Well, you have reacted now, better not continue like that :eek:

marina
04-09-2005, 15:26
Why I try to avoid the political threads like a plague is that they usually get twisted to the heck!
Now ..see we are already talking that the US shouldn't expect to get something in return if they helped before ( even with a little bit of Greek poetry :) .
America never asked for help to start with !
The reason people are dying in not because there are not enough people or money for that matter. They are dying because damage to the infrastructure won't let people get there to help . The US is a big country with lot of money -- they can fix it in the end , even without international help . But .....that attitude * I don't care , it's all their fault , Bush is moron ,Iraq , global warming, we are better looking than them..etc :rolleyes:
In threads like that it's better to say some words of sympathy and ask if our americam forumates and their loved ones are safe and well.

forre
04-09-2005, 15:34
Oh-la-la, babies got out of line here. :eek:

Okay, guys, we'll close the thread for a few hours. Any objections?

freddie
04-09-2005, 16:29
No Freddie, some people said or implied "we" as in the people who live in the US, got what we deserved, all we have contributed is pollution, yes? And, this is a common sentiment, not just on here. But I have found on here that many people think they are so righteous. I simply don't know where they get off.

As for you, well, I was disappointed. Maybe you had no intentions behind your words that were towards policy or malicious, and I believe that is probably true, you are a good person. However, you were one of the first to post and helped to set the tone (whether accidental or not) for this thread, and then proceeded not to argue with the hateful things people posted after you. Not your job to jump on people, you are not forum moral police, lol, but it still bothered me that it didn't bother you enough to stand up and say something.



Who said that? I never got an impression replies were about people getting elated, cause this happened. Hence I didn't reply to any of it. Most people only argued that people should get out, sicne they were warned beforehand. And this had nothing to do with nationality or politics. At least I didn't percieve it that way. And I DID reply to that, stating possible reasons why they maybe couldn't get out.


And, just to argue your thinking, Mitja. On one hand you say that this country is messed up (not your words, I know) and on the other you say that we can take care of ourselves. How does that match? You think we are fucked, but capable? You say we don't know our butt from our face, but we can mobilize and help these people? It's been how many days, and people are being locked in the stadium? People are dying of heat and starvation in this country you think can take care of itself? Maybe you think too much of us while hating (yes a strong word, sorry my vocab is limited at the moment) us? It is funny... don't you think?

I never said any of that. I don't even think I commented on ANYTHING american at least. I simply stated that you have enough resources in Washington to pull through this ALONE. This has got nothing to do with people's mentalities, foreign policies (I gather this is whta other people were criticizing?) or anything else - it's just a cold hard fact you have enough money to pull through it. And that's what you need in a time of crisis like this. Me saying I won't donate money wasn't at all a critique of America. It was a compliment, rather.

Oh-la-la, babies got out of line here. :eek:

Okay, guys, we'll close the thread for a few hours. Any objections?

Eh. I'd suggest you leave it opened for a while. Better an angry thread than permanent resentments, I'd say.

Bitty2002
04-09-2005, 22:21
This shouldn’t be about politics, because we are talking about human lives and suffering in the face of a natural disaster…but by your statement, you brought politics into this and I will reply in kind.

What have I said that's been any difference to anyone else?!

You get back what you give to the world. And seeing as all America has ever given is pollution and death to other countries, maybe they should experience it first hand for once.

If you can't see where the above quote isn't hateful...then you have issues. You get back what you give? That we SHOULD experience this? You are basically saying that the tragedy that occurred should have occurred. Maybe you really believe this, maybe you really do think people should die because you disagree with US policy. I don't and can't.



Does the G8 ring any bells?!! Your leader does not give a FUCKING SHIT about what damage pollution is doing to the world!! He only cares that immoral business men are getting a few extra bucks!!! :bebebe:

I'm sorry, Ice Cream, but the whole world is run by the almighty dollar, euro, yen, etc. I don't know where you have been living to think that man acts out of the greatness of his heart and love of nature. Man is selfish and self-serving. And I love how you say that our leader doesn't give a shit as your basis for condemning the entire country. You do realize that most people think that the elections were tampered? That Bush is not the most popular person in this country. The hate for him here is tangible.

Which country was in charge of going to Iraq?! The only reason we were that was because our prime minister is so far up George Bush's slimy ass so we didn't have a choice.

I would say that is fairly corrupt then. So the only reason you are there is because of your leader? I could say the same, why can't you see that? Because our leader has his head shoved so far up his own slimy ass.


because the majority of them are dumb enough to believe the propaganda and hysteria George Bush shits out of his mouth.

At this point, I don't agree with that. In the beginning, people were more inclined to support the president, because our country is build on high ideals of liberty. People wanted to believe and have faith in their leader. But don't say that the majority of people support Bush. And you know, people make mistakes. As you said, they are misled by propaganda. Now it is too late, we are over there, and now need to clean up our mess. So, I'm sorry, Ice_Cream. I am sorry my countries leaders decided to go into a war that was uninvited without giving us the details. I am sorry that many Americans had faith in our president upholding our high ideals. I'm sorry we let you down. But those people suffering in New Orleans have NOTHING to do with your hatred towards Bush and the people who supported Bush. You realize 80%+ people down there are black and most blacks are democrats, thus NOT Bush supporters. That most of these people are in poverty, which means they are not the big white man who, as you say, only "cares that immoral business and getting a few extra bucks." These people represent nothing that you hate, if anything, they represent everything your supposedly humane self should pity and protect.


Yeah, but at least some countries try!

For you to even attempt to say that the US doesn't try is ridiculous. So our leader doesn’t care enough for your taste. He is one man in a high position of power. He does not represent the feeling of America. Environment has always been a high ideal of American citizens, something we have worked very hard to balance with our capitalistic nature. Yeah it sucks that we are capitalistic money hungry bastards. But don't tell me your country isn't or that we are more deserving of tragedy because of it.

"Washington -- On the eve of the Group of Eight (G8) Summit, where Africa is slated to be a major focus, President Bush has reaffirmed the commitment of the United States to partner with African countries to respond to their economic, political and health challenges. He also announced three new initiatives to be presented at the summit in Gleneagles, Scotland, that are designed to help eradicate poverty in Africa through broader education, enhanced justice for women and a more robust fight against the continent’s leading killer, malaria."

You know around my town there is a recycling bin on every corner? One for paper, one for plastic, one for glass, one for cardboard, etc. etc. You know we enforce emissions testing? My school’s focus is environmental law.
Just to list a few: National Environmental Policy Act of 1969 (NEPA); Chemical Safety Information, Site Security and Fuels Regulatory Relief Act; The Clean Air Act (CAA); The Clean Water Act; Comprehensive Environmental Response, Compensation, and
Liability Act; The Emergency Planning & Community Right-To-Know Act; The Endangered Species Act; Federal Insecticide, Fungicide and Rodenticide Act; Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act; The Oil Pollution Act of 1990; The Pollution Prevention Act; The Resource Conservation and Recovery Act; The Safe Drinking Water Act; The Toxic Substances Control Act; 1965 Shoreline Erosion Protection Act; 1972 Coastal Zone Management Act; 1972 Marine Protection, Research, and Sanctuaries Act.

I could go on and on, the list is a mile long and those are only federal level statutes. We aren’t even talking about state level laws (which are in the millions) and international programs we are a part of. You only list G8, please support your side more. You see, I only have the burden of showing we “at least try”, you have the burden of proving we don’t try, which is impossible, because it is clear from above, we do.

So from the one event at Live 8, you can glean that all Americans are stupid bastards who only care about themselves… Are you blind, do you simply only see what you want to see? We are often times the first to respond with aid to foreign countries. Our country comes together and raises money and support and gathers people to go over to other countries ALL THE FUCKING TIME. We have USAID, American Red Cross, god, the list goes on and on. I can’t believe you can sit yourself up so high and think that maybe this country should feel what it feels like to suffer when you live in England…the Imperial king of the world. So you aren’t top dog now, where do you think the US got its ideology from?

I propose for Americans to become more humane, coz until the majority of them do I'm certainly not putting my hand in my pocket for some ignorant Americans that thought nothing could beat them so they sat on their fat asses and didn't move. Nothing but stupidity!!!

I think what is so ironic is that you’ve just exposed yourself as being the most inhumane one here. I find the pot is calling the kettle black. Show me some humanity before condemning those poor people down in NO to pay for the injustices the world has suffered under Bush. I propose you become more humane.

And we aren’t asking for your money. Never have been. I don’t expect you to even show your emotional support. However, you crossed the line of decency and humanity when you said that maybe this should have happened. That the ONLY thing (which is an grievously overstated remark) we give to the world is death and pollution, there by implying that because we bring those negatives we somehow deserve our suffering. I argue back saying that EVERYONE brings death and pollution, thus, should no one ever be helped. Would that be a better, more humane world? I think not.

If you think I seriously said that there's no point even replying to you because you are twisting my fucking words!

But you still felt the need to reply. And I don't think any twisting happened. I think the implication of your words was pretty clear. If that wasn't your intention to be callous and heartless and inhumane, then maybe you need to think before you speak. That is all I was saying.

I don't give a shit what you think!!

I know, and that is what is so sad. (Edited because it undermines my philosophy, *sigh*) You’ve exposed yourself as being everything that you hate.

Kappa
04-09-2005, 23:46
This hollier than thou attitude from EVERYONE in here is pissing me off. People, Copernicus called, and he said you're not the center of the universe. How about you stop giving each other a reason to be angry at the other, and focus on what's important to you? If you're not interested in helping for the victims, then don't. If you are, then by all means give with all your heart, be it money, effort, shelter, etc. The attitude everyone's getting from this thread is absolutely not helping anyone, regardless on whatever country you live in.

madeldoe
05-09-2005, 00:32
You realize 80%+ people down there are black and most blacks are democrats, thus NOT Bush supporters.


actually its flipped flopped. most african americans are christian/catholic, and although they may not be exclusively republican, they agreed with many of Bush's policies [which was based on his religion] which is what won the election. The election was not tampered. Bush won it clean and fair both times.

This hollier than thou attitude from EVERYONE in here is pissing me off.
i agree. no one is better than anyone else. but i do believe that once you take away someone elses humanity, you take away your own.


ANother problem that I'd like to bring up is the person who was put in charge of FEMA, Michael Brown. ANyone wanna take a stab at what his previous job was? His job was to ensure that horse-show judges followed the rules and to investigate allegations against those suspected of cheating. :rolleyes: No seriously thats what he did. Guess who appointed him? Joe Allbaugh, Bush's 2000 campaign manager who also happens to be an old friend of Brown's . Funny how it all sorta works out huh?




btw. thanks for the vid qb! kanye west is freakin hilarious! :laugh:

Bitty2002
05-09-2005, 01:01
I am not saying I am better than. Certain people are basically saying the US is worse than. Why doesn't any get this? Because you all agree? Well, fine, think the US sucks, I do too. But my POINT, which maybe one day will be understood, is that just because the US has its faults, bad policy, crappy president, or because the people in NO didn't walk 100 miles to safety, does not mean that those people are somehow deserving of what happened to them or that the suffering they are now experiencing is warranted and to be ignored.

And you all say, I wasn't saying they were deserving, what were you saying then? When you say, they should have gotten out...what follows that reasoning? Since they didn't get out, what? They are to blame for their own misery? Then what? What are you saying? Because they are to blame, I feel no obligation to care or help?

I find that callous reasoning, but think what you will. However, to think that the US maybe should have tragedy befall it so that it can experience the pain other countries feel, that is horrible philosophy, I am sorry. Feel free to disagree.

And I also hope people realizing that I do not think the US is the center of the universe and that a tragedy here is somehow worse. I am not comparing tragedies. I hurt for the people in China who were hit by a typhoon the other day. I hurt for the people in Mexico. There is no comparison, pain is pain. I am not expecting people to show sympathy or compassion for US more so than any compassion they would show for any suffering.

actually its flipped flopped. most african americans are christian/catholic, and although they may not be exclusively republican, they agreed with many of Bush's policies [which was based on his religion] which is what won the election. The election was not tampered. Bush won it clean and fair both times.

And you are positive it wasn't tampered how? I am just curious how you know this? I have ample reason to think it was. How do you know it wasn't? You state it as fact.

WASHINGTON -- March 31 -- Officially, President Bush won November's election by 2.5%, yet exit polls showed Kerry winning by 3%[1]. According to a report to be released today by a group of university statisticians, the odds of a discrepancy this large between the national exit poll and election results happening by accident are close to 1 in a million.
In other words, by random chance alone, it could not have happened. But it did.
Two alternatives remain. Either something was wrong with the exit polling, or something was wrong with the vote count.
Exit polls have been used to verify the integrity of elections in the Ukraine, in Latin America, in Germany, and elsewhere. Yet in November 2004, the U.S. exit poll discrepancy was much more than normal exit poll error (and similar to that of the invalid Ukraine election.

I'm not the only one who finds the 2004 election, and 2000 for that matter, suspect: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/2004votefraud.html

As for black people supporting Bush, Bush only got %16 of the Black vote. Bush got 51% of the American vote. Wow, a huge landslide. that means half of the US didn't support Bush. That isn't even counting the countless numbers who didn't vote, because what's the fucking point when both options suck ass? You know, we have two people to choose from. Two people. I hated both my choices. What are you supposed to do? Even if the majority of black people voted for Bush, what does that matter? Because of their affiliation, because they are conservative and Bush was the only conservative representative, these people are somehow less than? Because they support him, they maybe need to feel some of the pain their support of Bush has brought upon other nations? Is that really what people think? Cause if not, what exactly are people trying to say here?

I don't think people are seeing the issue. No one is arguing that the US has corruption. No one is arguing that the war is a good thing. No one is arguing that Bush sucks. No one is arguing that FEMA should not have been given more money. No one is arguing that NO should have been better prepared for this.

The point is that is wasn't. Why blame the people hurt by this ineptness? Or hell, to think that this same inept government is capable of handling it, thus you don’t need to show your support? And let me reiterate that I am not talking money. I am not even saying people should show support. But do not show hatred or insensitivity in the face of such tragedy. People's lives were lost. I do not want to read, while wondering if my loved one is alive, how he/she brought it upon him/herself, and how maybe we need to feel this pain. That is heartless. Even if you think you are fully justified, have a heart and shut your mouth. Wait for a better time than in the wake of death and sadness. Is civility too much to ask for?

madeldoe
05-09-2005, 01:24
And you are positive it wasn't tampered how? I am just curious how you know this? I have ample reason to think it was. How do you know it wasn't? You state it as fact.


no one can really be positive about anything. but lemme just make it clear [if i havent already lol] that i abhor bush and his administration. this is my theory. George Bush won because of his religion. And because of his stance on Religion, he was able to bring more Republicans to the polls than Democrats. Plain and Simple. I mean i could go more in depth, but this isnt the thread for it.



The point is that is wasn't. Why blame the people hurt by this ineptness? Or hell, think that this same inept government is capable of handling it, thus you don’t need to show your support?

exactly.

Bitty2002
05-09-2005, 01:46
no one can really be positive about anything. but lemme just make it clear [if i havent already lol] that i abhor bush and his administration. this is my theory. George Bush won because of his religion. And because of his stance on Religion, he was able to bring more Republicans to the polls than Democrats. Plain and Simple. I mean i could go more in depth, but this isnt the thread for it.

Sorry for my previous tone. I thought you were on the offensive, my mistake and misreading.

I personally think there is room to believe it was tampered. Tampered completely? No. I mean people still voted for him. As said, supposedly Kerry was winning by 3% according to exit polls. Then Bush won by 2.5%. I wonder if votes wer swapped. That would still mean over 40% of people probably voted for Bush and I, like you, am positive those people were highly influenced by his reactionary conservativism. But do I think he legally and rightfully won the presidency? No

marina
05-09-2005, 05:53
I hurt for the people in China who were hit by a typhoon the other day. I

Thanks , Bitty2000 .
Typhoon did not pound Shanghai after all , instead heading westwards to the neighbouring province. We been pre-warned about winds (well....i didn't go away :rolleyes: ) but the typhoon changed track.

By the time it hit us , typhoon had weakened to a tropical storm, drenching the area . We plunged into darkness when power lines went down , had lots of uprooted trees, fallen billboards and water...water ...water.
Fortunately , we were able to come back to normal life in 2 -3 days . Even the car survived thou not everyone was that lucky -- there were plenty flood damaged cars around.

QueenBee
05-09-2005, 09:50
I don't think anyone is actually saying that the people deserved this, just that the USA sucks.

spyretto
05-09-2005, 11:35
I don't see how you can bring politics into this when countries like Cuba and Venezuela are sending help too. This has nothing to do with politics, it's a humanitarian thing.

I don't think anyone is actually saying that the people deserved this, just that the USA sucks.

Well, to be fair to them they used to be one of the most loved counties before :eek:

Rachel
05-09-2005, 13:12
I'm not even gonna reply to your post Bitty coz we are getting no where. :none:

I am not saying people deserve to die. I am trying to point out that recently there seems to have been a lot of "natural" disasters, surely climate change as a result from global warming is somewhere to blame? And as the environment isn't one of Bush's priorities then that is maybe why some of this is happening?

I don't understand the man - he claims to be religious and uses religion as a tool againt gay marriage, yet it seems his biggest priority in life is money - I thought money was the root of all evil? :rolleyes: He picks and chooses his beliefs to suit him.

The UK has now sent 500,000 ration packs to the US, I don't see why America can't sort it out? Look at this - http://www.aneki.com/richest.html - surely America can afford it?!

Anyway, that is my last post on the matter. :bum:

spyretto
05-09-2005, 15:30
It's not the greenhouse effect per se, the climate changes were going to happen anyway - scientists knew about them years ago - it's just that the greenhouse effect can escalate them further.
The ozon layer is now as big as the size of Europe. :rolleyes:

ypsidan04
05-09-2005, 16:31
Someone forwarded this to me. Right on the mark.


Dear Mr. Bush:

Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag.

Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with?

Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her!

I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike?

And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!

On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.

There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.

No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!

You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.



Yours,



Michael Moore

Also (http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/090305Y.shtml)

Uhaku
05-09-2005, 17:24
Recap of the Tsunamis
UN : This is emergency!
Bush : Mm’kay, 35 bucks, there you go. Now, let’s go back to Middle East!
There are more people to kill and oil to dig up!
UN : Stingy!
US government : Our apology! The president forgot to add seven digits of zero after 35!
Bush : Are you guys nuts? Those third world countries don’t cost anything!
They don’t even own anything from the start! But, hell, you guys are the ones to make
decisions because I don’t know how. Bleh!


2 weeks before Katrina
Bush : Huh, mm’kay. Let me enjoy my vacation, will ya? I work so damn hard
to send all of the US troops to Iraq!
New Orleans : Pain is temporary. Pride is forever. We are not leaving. (We
can’t afford to leave. We don’t have a car!)


2 days before Katrina
Mayor : Ok. Let’s move people out. It’s a bit late, but that’s okay. It can’t be
that bad because God has always blessed America.


2 days AFTER Katrina
Bush : Katrina is a disaster all right! It’s even worse than the Tsunamis because
my vacation is cut short!
Dickhead vice president : Chill out, Gorge. Let those people starve. We don’t
need their votes anymore anyway. (I’m still on my vacation).
Bush : There’s more, Dickie! We lost a city! All the polluted water will be
dumped into the Gulf of Mexico, polluting it for the next ten years! Katrina had just
destroyed one third of the sources of oil the US uses!
Dickhead :AND after we spent all of the soldiers’ lives in Iraq, we don’t
even get their oil! That’s why I need longer vacation!
Poor US citizens : OUCH.

--------------------------------------

Reality? The US has helped the rest of the world in many occasions, but don’t
be so naïve to think that their motive in going to war with Iraq is to help those poor
people from the ex-dictator. CNN is owned by the Republican. Brainwash.
Brainwash. Image. Image. Oil. Oil. The US government got a big slap in its face now
that they can’t even control the oil in Iraq, while they let their own people suffer. The
world is so sad, indeed.

In case you haven't heard, please visit http://www.democracynow.org/
It is the source of news that lives on by donation. It isn't owned by a corp. :done:

Celtic Jobber
06-09-2005, 04:20
Hey everyone...

I was in South Mississippi with my family during Hurricane Katrina. The first floor of our house was flooded, most of my clothes, and almost everthing my familiy owns was destroyed. We were trapped upstairs for two days with flood water downstairs. I really thought I was going to die.

And to make matters worse, I also have a kidney infection. Our power was out for a week (its been really hot) which means no air conditioning which made it even more miserable. But its good to finally let some of my friends know I am atleast still alive...

This was by far the worst week of my life. And the scary thing is, there's a new storm starting where Katrina formed... :(

Kappa
06-09-2005, 04:45
Heya, Celtic Jobber... I'm sorry to hear you went through so much misery. I'm praying for you to get better of your kidney infection soon, and for the health and welfare of your family. :rose: I'm glad to know you're alive. :)

Celtic Jobber
06-09-2005, 06:39
Thanks darje, it means alot. :)

YLuelniaa
07-09-2005, 18:02
well my parents and I are going to be doing are part. The house that i grew up in..we no longer live in...my parents moved to the country...So we decided we are going to invite a few families to live in the house...

Its the least we can do ...its not much but it something...to give them a chance to start over...

simon
07-09-2005, 18:40
Hey everyone...

I was in South Mississippi with my family during Hurricane Katrina. The first floor of our house was flooded, most of my clothes, and almost everthing my familiy owns was destroyed. We were trapped upstairs for two days with flood water downstairs. I really thought I was going to die.

And to make matters worse, I also have a kidney infection. Our power was out for a week (its been really hot) which means no air conditioning which made it even more miserable. But its good to finally let some of my friends know I am atleast still alive...

This was by far the worst week of my life. And the scary thing is, there's a new storm starting where Katrina formed... :(
So we have Katrina victim among our number. I'm sorry to hear about your misfortune. I wonder if people are now going to call Celtic Jobber the names they called the other Katrina victims...

madeldoe
07-09-2005, 20:18
Hey everyone...

I was in South Mississippi with my family during Hurricane Katrina. The first floor of our house was flooded, most of my clothes, and almost everthing my familiy owns was destroyed. We were trapped upstairs for two days with flood water downstairs. I really thought I was going to die.

And to make matters worse, I also have a kidney infection. Our power was out for a week (its been really hot) which means no air conditioning which made it even more miserable. But its good to finally let some of my friends know I am atleast still alive...

This was by far the worst week of my life. And the scary thing is, there's a new storm starting where Katrina formed... :(


Im happy to hear your okay Celtic! Please keep up us updated on your situation and if there is anything that I can do, I'll be glad to help! :rose:




well my parents and I are going to be doing are part. The house that i grew up in..we no longer live in...my parents moved to the country...So we decided we are going to invite a few families to live in the house...

Its the least we can do ...its not much but it something...to give them a chance to start over...

I salute you. I wish I could be doing something thats hands on. Sending money isn't even close to enough..

Kappa
07-09-2005, 22:31
So we have Katrina victim among our number. I'm sorry to hear about your misfortune. I wonder if people are now going to call Celtic Jobber the names they called the other Katrina victims...

*rolls eyes* Thank you for kicking that dead horse. What names, might I ask? I don't remember anyone calling the victims of this disaster anything.

QueenBee
08-09-2005, 00:36
I am trying to point out that recently there seems to have been a lot of "natural" disasters, surely climate change as a result from global warming is somewhere to blame? And as the environment isn't one of Bush's priorities then that is maybe why some of this is happening?
Yeah (I know this has prolly nothing to do with it, but here's a little comment on pollution), Bush didn't want anything to do with the Kyoto Protocol (is that spelling correct?) and if I remember correctly, USA is the most responsible. :rolleyes:

Celtic Jobber, oh wow I'm so sorry to hear about that! I'm glad you got through it though.. Seems like the *worst* is over :rose: I wish you all the best.

simon
08-09-2005, 00:39
Examples:

You get back what you give to the world. And seeing as all America has ever given is pollution and death to other countries, maybe they should experience it first hand for once...

even though there was warning of a hurricane coming they just sat on their butts and didn't move
The fact that they didn't do shit when they got a warning about the hurricane is pretty stupid. I know I'd be running the fuck out of there as soon as possible. Still, natural catastrophes are always horrible, but we can only blame ourselves when we know of the risks.

QueenBee
08-09-2005, 00:43
simon, I don't see any name-calling in those post (one of those is mine.)...

simon
08-09-2005, 00:45
'they just sat on their butts'? 'pretty stupid'? You don't think that's name calling?

QueenBee
08-09-2005, 00:47
simon, oh in that case I misunderstood... I thought name calling in the English language was directly saying.. for example "Idiots", or something like that.

simon
08-09-2005, 00:53
It would have been more precise if I'd written 'derogatory characterisations' instead, but I think it still counts as name calling - it was calling the victims lazy and stupid.

Rachel
08-09-2005, 01:38
Some of the people are still refusing to move. You call that intelligent?

Kappa
08-09-2005, 02:16
It would have been more precise if I'd written 'derogatory characterisations' instead, but I think it still counts as name calling - it was calling the victims lazy and stupid.

There's people driving their own rescuers away with guns. There's people that are dying of hunger, but refuse to leave their houses. There's looters all over the place, and YOU are offended because there's people calling them out on their obvious mistakes and faults? Victimacy doesn't automatically exclude you from stupidity.

Nor we are calling all victims "stupid" or "lazy" as you hallucinate we are, nor all victims refused to leave the city. There's people that died trying to get to safety.

shizzo
08-09-2005, 05:56
Anne Rice comments on the disaster (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/04/opinion/04rice.html?ei=5090&en=ce2f33f8719dba9c&ex=1283486400&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=print)

Celine Dion gets emotional (http://edition.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/bestoftv/2005/09/03/lkl.celine.dion.cnn)

simon
08-09-2005, 11:51
Some of the people are still refusing to move. You call that intelligent?
There's people driving their own rescuers away with guns. There's people that are dying of hunger, but refuse to leave their houses. There's looters all over the place, and YOU are offended because there's people calling them out on their obvious mistakes and faults? Victimacy doesn't automatically exclude you from stupidity.

Nor we are calling all victims "stupid" or "lazy" as you hallucinate we are, nor all victims refused to leave the city. There's people that died trying to get to safety.
The examples I quoted were of people calling those who failed to get out of the path of the hurricane stupid or lazy. Now those remarks are being defended on the grounds that some of the victims are stupid. Of course some of the hurricane victims are stupid, but that doesn't make it correct to label them all lazy or stupid. It's not very intelligent to condemn all the victims because a small minority had been looting and a handful of people had shot at the rescuers. I had even said in a post of my own that the ones left behind in New Orleans who hadn't tried to go to the shelters had been ill-informed or stupid - but that's quite different from condemning all of them as lazy or stupid. It had already been explained that people left behind had not had the means to leave, which was met with this thoughtful response:

They live in a state they KNOW is below sea level and even though there was warning of a hurricane coming they just sat on their butts and didn't move. Yeah, they're poor, I know. But have they never heard of walking? There was a lot of advance warning for the hurricane, if they had actually started moving as soon as the warnings started to come maybe they would be in a safe place right now. But no, what they seem to be doing is going to the nearest Walmarts to find guns so they can go around terrorising the people who are actually trying to HELP THEM!

Kappa
08-09-2005, 15:07
That's your own imagination considering we're condeming ALL and EVERY victim lazy or stupid. I wish people would stop assuming we're out to have the heads of the hurricane victims just because we're not american ourselves.

simon
08-09-2005, 19:02
The fact that they didn't do shit when they got a warning about the hurricane is pretty stupid. I know I'd be running the fuck out of there as soon as possible. Still, natural catastrophes are always horrible, but we can only blame ourselves when we know of the risks.

They live in a state they KNOW is below sea level and even though there was warning of a hurricane coming they just sat on their butts and didn't move. Yeah, they're poor, I know. But have they never heard of walking? There was a lot of advance warning for the hurricane, if they had actually started moving as soon as the warnings started to come maybe they would be in a safe place right now.
Those statements are pretty sweeping, darje. I don't see any provisos that they were only condemning some of the people who were stuck in the path of the hurricane.

I wish people would stop assuming we're out to have the heads of the hurricane victims just because we're not american ourselves.
I certainly don't assume that everyone who's not American is anti-American. I'm not American either.

Rachel
08-09-2005, 19:05
Simon, are you some secret American? :spy:

simon
08-09-2005, 19:12
Simon, are you some secret American? :spy:
No, I'm British! It isn't necessary to be American not to hate them.

Kappa
08-09-2005, 19:26
Oh, so if I condemn you to be pedant and constantly misunderstanding, am I condemning every british born member of the forum to be the same? Seriously, climb off your cloud of righteousness; everyone will have their opinion and there's nothing more awful than someone trying to singlehandedly convince everyone that they're wrong.

haku
08-09-2005, 19:48
From what i've seen, many countries are sending help to the US (which i do think is ridiculous because sending help to the US is like donating money to Bill Gates), but from i've seen, US mainstream media are not mentioning this fact at all (probably because they think it's shameful to receive foreign help) and US authorities are not using or even refusing this help, which shows that foreign help is unnecessary and unwanted by American people themselves.

Some people have compared this hurricane to the tsunami in south-east Asia, personally i think the tsunami was much worse, much more people died and it happened in countries with much less financial resources than the US, however this hurricane will cost much more money than the tsunami.
Like an American trader said when asked if the tsunami would have an impact on Wall Street "The tsunami won't have a serious financial impact, many people died and many infrastructures were destroyed but none of those were insured so it won't cost anything to insurance companies, the impact on the market will be minimal, it could even be positive since the reconstruction will open up many business opportunities for our companies".

Anyway, the climate is changing and natural catastrophes are going to increase all over the planet, we will all be hit by something at some point.

Kappa
08-09-2005, 19:55
There is a mexican convoy of 50 eight wheelers in it's way to the US, with food, water, clothes, and resources for portable home construction, and our biggest war boat, the Papaloapan, will be arriving at the site of disaster next week with just as many medical aid as our country could give up.

I honestly would find it disgraceful if a nation's pride makes it unable to accept help.

volkotina
08-09-2005, 20:24
From what i've seen, many countries are sending help to the US (which i do think is ridiculous because sending help to the US is like donating money to Bill Gates), but from i've seen, US mainstream media are not mentioning this fact at all (probably because they think it's shameful to receive foreign help) and US authorities are not using or even refusing this help, which shows that foreign help is unnecessary and unwanted by American people themselves.


As far as the reporting of offers of help, those actually have been widely reported by the American news media outlets in both print and television. Bitty2002 previously mentioned the report about Sri Lanka's incredibly moving offer. Along with that report, we both have heard about the numerous countries who have offered their condolences, compassion, and aid. The US has requested help from NATO (ETA: link (http://www.nato.int/docu/update/2005/09-september/e0904a.htm)) and is responding to offers from foreign countries. As mentioned before, a lot of the aid that is being offered is being reviewed and will be accepted or declined based on specific needs. Of course, with bureaucracy one can never be sure what is truly going on and what will come of everything.

As far as I am concerned, I am grateful for the outpouring of compassion exhibited by foreign countries and their citizens. I also know a lot of other Americans are as well.

I honestly would find it disgraceful if a nation's pride makes it unable to accept help.

And that is going to be an issue I am sure. For every person who finds that the US is acting in a disgraceful manner by not accepting aid, another person will find it equally disgraceful if a country as rich as we are does accept. It truly is a no win situation.

ETA: Celtic Jobber and marina, both Bitty and I hope you and your loved ones are well. :rose: Take care.

simon
08-09-2005, 21:16
I agree it's ridiculous to send aid to the United States. I think it's being offered not because countries think they really need it, but for political reasons, to show gratitude from countries that have recieved American aid, or to make a point, particularly in the case of Cuba's offer of aid. The aid offers haven't been ignored by the American media - a quick Google News search showed that it has been reported by CBS, CNN, USA Today, the International Herald Tribune, the Los Angeles Times, the Chicago Sun-Times, the Boston Globe, the Miami Herald, the Seattle Post Intelligencer and the San Jose Mercury News among others.

Oh, so if I condemn you to be pedant and constantly misunderstanding, am I condemning every british born member of the forum to be the same? Seriously, climb off your cloud of righteousness; everyone will have their opinion and there's nothing more awful than someone trying to singlehandedly convince everyone that they're wrong.
You seem to be saying that I'm the only one who thought that what was written about the hurricane victims was unfair. What about the others who complained? Or do they not count because they are Americans? You condemn me as righteous; surely that's better than being judgemental and callous?

haku
08-09-2005, 21:52
I agree it's ridiculous to send aid to the United States. I think it's being offered not because countries think they really need it, but for political reasonsMost probably, i heard today that the US congress is allocating $10.5 billion to the hurricane relief and that $40 billion will be added later, so that's a total of $50.5 billion that the US is dedicating to that catastrophe... When after that you hear that an extremely poor country like Angola is giving $400,000 to the US, it sounds rather obscene.

Kappa
08-09-2005, 21:58
You seem to be saying that I'm the only one who thought that what was written about the hurricane victims was unfair. What about the others who complained? Or do they not count because they are Americans? You condemn me as righteous; surely that's better than being judgemental and callous?

I condemn you as righteous because you're mounting on an attitude that helps no one, although you believe you do. You seem to believe that we were taking each and every victim of the hurricane and tagging them as stupid and lazy, which, FOR THE LAST EFFING TIME, is not the case. People are suffering, and most of us can't do much more than donate to the relief effort, which have been disclosed as useless anyway because the States won't take help. What I cannot stand is to see the effort of those who can be at the disaster site, lending a hand and risking their own lives, WASTED by those who are truly stupid and lazy: people who have been threatening rescuers out of their houses with guns, and refusing to be relocated. Victimacy status does not automatically make you exempt of stupidity. I understand that grieving can be a cause of madness, but it in no way gives you the right to point a gun at someone you're just trying to help.

simon
08-09-2005, 22:39
You seem to believe that we were taking each and every victim of the hurricane and tagging them as stupid and lazy, which, FOR THE LAST EFFING TIME, is not the case.
You haven't said that they were. I was quoting from posts by other people that criticised the victims generally, not just some of them, calling them lazy or stupid because they didn't leave. The people who wrote those posts haven't said that they had been misunderstood. They have stood by those comments so far.

Victimacy status does not automatically make you exempt of stupidity.
I've written twice before in this thread that some of the victims are stupid. What annoyed me was the way some people blamed the victims generally. I studied social psychology and I know that victim blaming is a very common reaction to the misfortunes of others - if we can say that their misfortunes are their own fault it makes us feel better, less guilty and not having to face up to the reality that life is deeply unfair.

People who had the means to leave but didn't were ill-informed or stupid. People who didn't have access to transport can't reasonably be blamed for not having walked out of the way of the hurricane. It was an absurd thing to write. People who have hindered the rescuers are bad or stupid, but it is absurd to imply that they represent a significant proportion of the hurricane victims.

Kappa
08-09-2005, 23:16
I don't imply that at all, nor mean to. I'm sad for these people who weren't bad or stupid or for that matter even above average, who have lost their whole patrimony. Having said this, I'll stop posting in this thread, it just puts me in an awful mood.

Lux
08-09-2005, 23:17
i just ran into a friend's friend at school where he was trying to get supplies for his friend at Tulane University..this kid lost everything, comp, clothes, phone, everything. and he's like "i'm taking all kinds of donations...this kid doesnt even have cigs!!" lmao@that

madeldoe
09-09-2005, 05:36
guess who got the non-bid contract to rebuild NO?

one hint: they got the same contract to rebuild iraq.


TAKE A GUESS.

spyretto
10-09-2005, 00:28
Dick's company?? :D

madeldoe
10-09-2005, 00:42
DING! DING! DING! Thats right! HALLIBURTON. :rolleyes:


FINALLY they got rid of Micheal Brown and got someone who actually knew what the hell they are doing.

freddie
10-09-2005, 14:31
That Dick Chainey dude... I don't know but looking at him he looks PURE evil. I mean maybe the title isn't even deserved, he's probably just a fat greedy little fuck, but looking at him he looks like a complete demon's seed. :p

haku
11-09-2005, 21:12
I was watching the news earlier and apparently the estimated death toll has been considerably lowered, now it's oficially of about 300 dead but they don't expect it to go much higher than a thousand in the worst case scenario, which is of course good news.

That being said, when you think that some people were saying that this catastrophe was at the same level as the tsunami in south east Asia... 1 to 2 thousand American dead on one side, 150 to 200 thousand Asian dead on the other side... Yeah, same level.


I'm also amazed to hear that the city is actually going to be rebuilt, this is madness. With the climate change, sea levels are going to rise significantly during this century and the next one. New Orleans *will* be flooded again, it's a certainty, rebuilding a city on a land that is going to end up under water in a few decades is just crazy.

Rachel
11-09-2005, 22:03
...rebuilding a city on a land that is going to end up under water in a few decades is just crazy.An expensive mistake :hmmm:

Lux
11-09-2005, 22:07
i read somewhere that a local tribes people had this ancient stream of wisdom that goes, "if you see the ocean in the far distance begin to recede, away from shore, run. drop everything and run inland, as fast as possible." so when the people saw the sea go away from shore way in the distance, that's what they did. and..30 mins later, the stunami hit. they all survived. neat, eh?

simon
13-09-2005, 12:51
I'm also amazed to hear that the city is actually going to be rebuilt, this is madness. With the climate change, sea levels are going to rise significantly during this century and the next one. New Orleans *will* be flooded again, it's a certainty, rebuilding a city on a land that is going to end up under water in a few decades is just crazy.
Bush promised to rebuild New Orleans and it would be typical of him to do so, following the idea that you don't accept the existence of limits on your ability to do what you want (e.g. global warming, Iraq). But this article from the LA Times (requires registration) says that they are only planning to rebuild part of the city. Large areas will never be rebuilt.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-na-rebuild11sep11,1,2845954.story?coll=la-headlines-frontpage

csargen
13-09-2005, 22:04
The stupidity and darkness being shown in this thread is unbearable. Your logic for the reason this city should not be rebuilt is down right DUMB. To speak in such a way brings to light your inner state which is obviously one of high damage & no chance of being repaired...

Most likely you haven't ever been there! YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT NEW ORLEANS! New Orleans was never some tiny nothing city and half of it at this moment isn't flooded, isn't badly damaged, and even has power. The water purifaction plants are All running and it will be 90 days before the water in these undamaged areas is drinkable.

Everyone speaks greenly of how wealthy the U.S. is...duhhh. There's no "expensive mistake". The U.S. can clean up the not so lucky parts of New Orleans 20 times over if it wanted to. Get a grip... and a life!

haku
13-09-2005, 22:26
Most likely you haven't ever been there! YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT NEW ORLEANS! New Orleans was never some tiny nothing city and half of it at this moment isn't flooded, isn't badly damaged, and even has power. The water purifaction plants are All running and it will be 90 days before the water in these undamaged areas is drinkable.
Everyone speaks greenly of how wealthy the U.S. is...duhhh. There's no "expensive mistake". The U.S. can clean up the not so lucky parts of New Orleans 20 times over if it wanted to.
Oh so now it's no big deal and the US could clean 20 hurricanes Katrina in no time if they wanted to?

So why did you say at the beginning of this thread that it was a disaster comparable to the tsunami in south east Asia if the hurricane is such a benign incident for the US now?

csargen
13-09-2005, 23:03
So why did you say at the beginning of this thread that it was a disaster comparable to the tsunami in south east Asia if the hurricane is such a benign incident for the US now?

First of all, the hurricane is much like the tsunami disaster and second, being a disaster in America, of course it won't be as difficult as it was in Asia to clean up...

The American government just issued debit cards of $2000 each to evacuee families & there is much money going towards repairs in New Orleans (Bush just gave 5 BILLION dollars to the affected areas). The entire downtown area of New Orleans that defined the city is totally fine and the state is letting business owners back in at this moment to assess any damages to their properties and begin to fix up the area.

If you were actually in America to see, you would know that many wealthier Americans are stepping up and offering new homes & cars & thousands of dollars to individual hurricane victims.

And for all of the US citizens on this forum trying to take up the slack for anything the president or country may have done, you need to stop it, because that is not your place. I am almost sure that you would rather live in the US than any of these other places that think America is such a horrible place. You should not lower yourselves to anyone of these people who have No Idea what it is like to be American, especially when you do not know what people in these other countries face. From actually having visited these places and living amongst people who go over seas on the weekend simply for shopping, I know that I would much rather live in America than anywhere else in the world.

Kappa
13-09-2005, 23:08
Because, same as us, he knew next to nothing about the disaster's true proportions? That's my take. I could be wrong.

Kappa
13-09-2005, 23:12
And for all of the US citizens on this forum trying to take up the slack for anything the president or country may have done, you need to stop it, because that is not your place. I am almost sure that you would rather live in the US than any of these other places that think America is such a horrible place. You should not lower yourselves to anyone of these people who have No Idea what it is like to be American, especially when you do not know what people in these other countries face. From actually having visited these places and living amongst people who go over seas on the weekend simply for shopping, I know that I would much rather live in America than anywhere else in the world.

Excuse me while I... AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. *Sends the national rofflecopters in csargen's direction.*

[ Edited because I'm hotheaded and I stumbled into the thread while bored. ]

Sorry, mods.

csargen
13-09-2005, 23:16
Excuse me .... your big redneck american throat.


Shameless.... {EDITED} :p

Sorry mods... :p

Kappa
13-09-2005, 23:20
So I got caught saying a fact. And...? :rolleyes:

csargen
13-09-2005, 23:26
So I got caught saying a fact. And...? :rolleyes:

And... you don't even know me... I suggest you reread your very own post in the Personal Forum... and reflect. :rolleyes:

Kappa
13-09-2005, 23:37
In cases when people make it a fact that Americans seem to believe the rest of the world is "jealous of us, our money and power and whateverelseyouthinkisyours", I make an exception to not insulting anybody. Truly, yes, I hate Mexico City at times when what I posted in the Personal Forum happens, but after years of thought I've come to realize that moving to the States would probably mean I'm jumping from the pan into the fire.

Besides, who are YOU to talk about people not knowing New Orleans? I can ask you the same thing about all the towns (ex. Acapulco, that takes hurricanes like a kick in the balls every time they happen, or Cancun, very much an "american" spring break place, that's had had to rebuild twice from the beggining thanks to similar disasters) that get pretty much turned upside down when a disaster of this category happens. Do you know them? Have you seen the Mexican troops or the presidents say "This was worse than the last time, but we're powerful so we'll rebuild" and five minutes later go "Oops, it wasn't so awful. My bad."? No. I'm quite honestly sick of this disaster (and this thread, and you) because when their own are in need, the very Americans that are "helping others" in a country that NEVER ASKED FOR THEIR DAMN HELP are unable to withdraw and rebuild.

I don't need to know you to know that nobody else in this forum would ever say "my country's better than yours even if we can't help ourselves", which is what you just did.

madeldoe
14-09-2005, 18:21
I'm also amazed to hear that the city is actually going to be rebuilt, this is madness. With the climate change, sea levels are going to rise significantly during this century and the next one. New Orleans *will* be flooded again, it's a certainty, rebuilding a city on a land that is going to end up under water in a few decades is just crazy.


NO is WAAAAAAY too important to NOT rebuild. NO is the port to international ships and provides finance for MANY caribbean countries. and lets not forget the music, lord the music :(

Uhaku
20-09-2005, 11:31
The Rev. Jesse Jackson spoke Saturday night in New York City at an event with
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.

Monday, September 19th, 2005

JESSE JACKSON: President Chavez, we met just a few weeks ago in Caracas and there
we met with African-Venezuelans and African-Cubans, and African-Colombians and Peruvians
and African-Mexicans. Between Mexico down to Brazil, one hundred and eighty million African
people, more than in North America who got there first. All the missions of President Chavez
to pull together the great African Diaspora in South, Central and Latin America that we met.
While we're meeting and I was able to speak to the Parliament, the governing body of that
country, I was struck by the impact of hurricane Katrina.

What did Katrina do? There was devastation and homelessness. We saw an infrastructure
collapse. Levees that we refused to invest in the last twenty-five years. And when the
hurricane struck and the waters rose because of global warming, which is no longer academic
and in the margins, as we unleash carcinogens in the atmosphere and burn off the ozone
layer, as we melt the glaciers and the waters rise and become hotter, we'll have more
hurricanes in the four, five and six level. As we attack the earth, the earth fights back to
protect its own integrity. And so we saw this massive storm on the way. And while it in many
ways damaged the city and killed some people, it also washed away the facade. It washed
away the cover, the dirty little secret of race and poverty and class.

President Bush said that many Americans saw for the first time on television the dreadful
intractable impact of race and poverty and class. When the storm did come, there was
warning but there was no preparation. We looked for helicopters and national guardsmen,
and they were in Iraq trying to fortify Baghdad and leaving New Orleans exposed. There are so many ways, like putting an inner tube in a bucket of water. You see the bubbles come up.
You see where there are holes in the inner tube, the impact of tax cuts for the wealthy,
going offshore, avoiding paying taxes and getting no-bid contracts, the impact of ignoring our
own infrastructure, the impact of a war of choice in Iraq, spending $5 billion a month, losing
lives and money and honor. We found ourselves trapped in our own foolishness as the
hurricane came. We were warned, but had no defense.

I urged President Chavez to come to America at this season because we believe in the politics
of civility and dialogue, not assassination. So come on to America. When Katrina struck, while
Mr. Bush was somewhere between riding motorcycles and dodging Cindy Sheehan in his front
yard, the Secretary of State shopping for Ferragamo shoes, the waters were rising. As he
delayed within two days – we got food and water to Indonesia but not to New Orleans. And
two days after 9/11 President Bush came to ground zero, held the arms of policemen and
firemen and the mayor in that city as he should have done. He never went to ground zero in
New Orleans. No member of his Cabinet went to ground zero in New Orleans. The Red Cross
did not go to ground zero in New Orleans.

Now we saw this mass of humanity, even as they suffered, removing the facade that now
can no longer be avoided. There was no mass preparation for rescue so people suffered
before the eyes of the world. During the demonstrations, you might recall, Sister Belafonte, in
Chicago in 1968, police were beating demonstrators. Somewhere out of the crowd emerged
a saying, a phrase. "The whole world is watching." The whole world is watching. The whole
world is watching. As people swam and died in New Orleans. The whole world was watching.
Still without food and water, the whole world was watching. As the president failed to exercise his obligations to American citizens and the media called citizens refugees, the whole
world was watching.

So while that was happening, President Chavez made an offer to America. He offered to send
two planes, eighteen power generators for the dark of New Orleans. The police had no light,
no communications. I went down there on ten different missions. They had no lights. He
offered eighteen water purifiers. He offered $1 million in money for down payment. He
offered two mobile hospital units. As people lay dying on the streets and babies dying in
mother's arms from dehydration and starvation, he offered 20 tons of water and 50 tons of
food! The planes are still on the runway in Caracas. It was turned away, and people suffered
and died. Even tonight, one hundred and fifty thousand citizens are in rescue camps, two
thousand children separated from their families, the dead yet uncounted. No plan for massive
rescue. No plan for acceptance or relief. No plan for relocation. Why couldn't tax-paying
citizens in Louisiana go North in their own state for housing? And use unused military bases
and state parks? Why were they turned away and left to suffer in the South of their own
state? So tonight, my brothers and my sisters, we meet the cause. We seek friends. We seek
to be friendly. No master plan for rescue. No relief, no relocation, no family reunification.

Then came finally “reconstruction.” Whenever the President sticks his hand out, there's
always something up his sleeve. Now he said, I will give $50 billion, but I want to suspend
David Bacon I want to suspend prevailing wages. So people can come in and work beneath
fair wages without health insurance. I want to suspend minority businesses and small
businesses, and so Halliburton got the first contract and Bechtel and Fluor Daniels. First $100
million no-bid contracts while corruption expanded and exploded. Somebody said “I’ll offer you
water. I’ll offer you food. I'll offer you medicine. A friendly hand is extended by this president.

There's a scripture that says, Reverend and Sister Collins, “How will we get peace?” On face
value it seems to be a rather simplistic solution in a sense it's biblical. What is the message
behind the language? The Bible says, “There will be peace in the valley, and lion lie down with
the lamb. In other words, when extremes – ferocious lions meet lambs, the big, the little, the
white, the black, the brown, the well, the sick find common ground. Who will get peace in
the valley? Well, what would make a lion cut a deal with a lamb? Lion's strong and powerful
and self-sufficient. Who will make a lamb trust a lion? Who will make lions and lambs lie
together? Well, you lie together when you find that you have something in common. What
do lions and lambs have in common? Neither wants the forest to catch on fire. Neither wants
acid rain on their backs. Neither wants a flood in the forest. Surely, if lions and lambs can lie
together, so can America and Venezuela. After all, why should we not lie together? We're
neighbors. We're in the same hemisphere. Venezuela is not back door, Venezuela is next
door. There was a Caracas before there was New York. It's not backdoor, it's next door.

How must we get along because we need each other. Venezuela needs America's market.
America needs Venezuela's product. How must we get along because Venezuela sends to
America a million and a half barrels of oil every day. The largest reserve of crude oil in
Venezuela and in the world. How must we get along? A shipment of oil comes from
Venezuela to America in four days, from Saudi Arabia in four weeks. How must we get along,
because we’re neighbors. How must we get along because Venezuela shares 13,000 miles of
border with Colombia, without Venezuela we cannot fight the drug war, cause we fight the
drug war, the energy war. We also can learn something from each other, why is it you are
paying $5 for a gallon of gas, in Venezuela they are paying $.15 cents a gallon. Because the
government’s priority is to invest in the people. They subsidize oil, gas, health care and
education, and that’s civil. We cannot subsidize our oil and education because we’re investing
in tax cuts for the wealthy and a war that does not make sense in Iraq. We need new values,
we need to go another way.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

source: www.democracynow.org

PowerPuff Grrl
21-09-2005, 21:33
If you haven't heard already there's another hurricane, Hurricane Rita.
It has now been upgraded to a level 5 hurricane and is headed straight for Texas.

I just wonder what the Christian extremists will say this time. According to Pat Robertson 9/11 was caused by the lesbians and "feminazi's." :blabla:
Hurricane Katrina, by crime, corruption, and sexual promiscuity of New Orleans.
Hurricane Rita...

What do you guys think?
Why does God hate Texas?
:rolleyes:

freddie
21-09-2005, 22:44
Dixie Chicks. ;)

Kappa
21-09-2005, 22:50
Or it might just be because it saw George Bush be born and grow.

madeldoe
22-09-2005, 08:24
good lord i nearly had a heart attack when i read about the hurrican hitting texas. my pregnant sister was going to do some training there for her job, and i thought she left already. thank god her training isnt until oct :bum:

simon
22-09-2005, 20:26
Earlier today Rita was the third most powerful hurricane ever recorded, but it's fallen back to a Category Four. On its way across the Gulf, Katrina had been the third (now fourth) most powerful hurricane ever recorded. Maybe this is a message to the Americans about global warming.

Meanwhile, I'm posting this article from the US magazine The New Republic, arguing that New Orleans shouldn't be rebuilt. An argument is misses is that future global warming is going to intensify hurricanes significantly, making a Big One even more likely to hit New Orleans.

Sunken Cost
by Adam B. Kushner

Post date 09.22.05 | Issue date 10.03.05

Americans do not capitulate easily to adversity, which is why President Bush's elegy last week--and his stirring promise to rebuild--comforted us. "Americans want the Gulf Coast not just to survive, but to thrive; not just to cope, but to overcome," he said, standing in front of the St. Louis Cathedral in New Orleans, my hometown. "We want evacuees to come home for the best of reasons--because they have a real chance at a better life in a place they love." It sounds uplifting. But, sadly, it is wrong. New Orleans should not be remade. Not the way it was.

Dennis Hastert made the point first, three days after the storm, telling the Daily Herald, a suburban Chicago newspaper, that rebuilding "doesn't make sense to me. ... A lot of that place could be bulldozed." He was shouted down as an insensitive defeatist. Jack Shafer soon explained in Slate that poverty, public school failures, the placid acceptance of urban crime, the insurance debacle, and the challenge of protecting a city built in a ten-foot hole would vitiate any settlement there. All fine reasons not to replicate pre-Katrina New Orleans, but none of them truly compelling, because they are secondary.

The primary case against restoring New Orleans isn't technocratic; it is moral. Eventually, the "Big One"--the Category Five killer scientists have warned residents to expect for 40 years--will make Katrina look tame. And, if we cannot see that major tracts of New Orleans are still unsafe, it will kill many more people. Those areas should be closed to development. Officials were negligent enough in not preparing for a storm of Katrina's power; why should they let New Orleanians return to harm's way?

Although Katrina destroyed much of New Orleans, it was not the Big One. It weakened and passed 30 miles to the east. And, although New Orleans flooded, the cause was not a storm surge that "overtopped" levees--which the Cassandras have always predicted would drown the city--but rather levee collapses along the canals that link the river with Lake Pontchartrain, which empties into the Gulf of Mexico. Those breaches allowed the lake's storm surge (rather than the river's) to flood directly into town. Now New Orleanians are likely to think the worst has come and gone.

Not so. When the Big One finally creeps up the Mississippi River delta, it will push a wall of water with it that spills over even the highest river levee. And New Orleans is only becoming more vulnerable, because the wetlands and barrier islands of southern Louisiana--the ones that have always borne the direct onslaught of storms--are eroding at the rate of one acre every 24 minutes, leaving little ground to sap hurricane surges. That makes the Mississippi levee system the only bulwark against the water, which it was never intended to be. In the wake of Katrina, there's talk of raising the levees to prevent overtopping. But the higher the Army Corps builds them, the faster they will sink into the soft terrain. And, as Columbia University geophysicist Klaus Jacob wrote in The Washington Post, "The higher the defenses, the deeper the floods that will inevitably follow."

Idealistic officials think they can devise better evacuation plans. But meteorologists cannot know until just before landfall where a storm will hit, and unnecessary evacuations have a Chicken Little effect, increasing the likelihood that residents will ignore the emergency order when the Big One really does arrive. That's why the mayor didn't evacuate New Orleans until just 21 hours before the storm landed. Furthermore, there is no way to shepherd away the 100,000 New Orleanians who don't own cars in so little time. Pundits have flayed the local, state, and federal governments for not caravanning these people to safety, but there will never be time to conjure 2,500 buses and 2,500 drivers in the tiny window between the knowledge of a storm's path and its arrival. Many New Orleanians survived Katrina on the lucky break that the flooding began only after the storm had passed. They won't be so fortunate again.

Nor can other schemes stop the Big One's surge, at least not during the current cycle of vicious hurricane seasons, which is supposed to last another 20 years. The best strategy for reconstituting the prophylactic wetlands is called Coast 2050, because that's the year planners expect it to be done. It calls for rerouting entire estuaries of the Mississippi delta. One civil engineer suggested a Dutch-style network of dams and dykes, but Holland's modern system covers 1,560 miles and was 50 years in the making. Plus, its seawalls do not need to sit in beds of pliant silt or withstand 175-mph squalls. Jacob actually suggested rebuilding New Orleans on a Venetian network of bridges and platforms. These people are fooling themselves, and the obstacle is not cash: Nature simply will not be cowed so easily or so soon.

True, not all of New Orleans is in jeopardy, and residents on high ground should not be barred from their homes. The real threat is to the lowest neighborhoods, such as the Ninth Ward and New Orleans East; they are unlike other disaster zones, where structural modifications and insurance policies can mitigate the damage. These neighborhoods are also the poorest and the blackest in the city. It is here that the moral case against consigning imperiled residents to their deaths is strongest. And yet New Orleans cannot exist without workers for the tourism and food-service industries, the ports, and the casinos. So, if there's no safe place to put the city's poor, there's no moral way to rebuild a viable economy. Some talk of relocating the poor nearby--perhaps across the river--and erecting a vast infrastructure of housing and transportation, enabling them to work in the city if they want. But Katrina's legacy shouldn't be a rich, white New Orleans mirrored by a poor, black shantytown. Cruelly, the storm gave the people with the fewest choices no choice at all; the government must resettle them elsewhere and force those living on high ground to endure the diminished economy or leave.

Millions of Americans live in dangerous places, and major cities often undertake risks knowingly. But it is one thing to know of a danger and argue that a fully developed, fully functional place like San Francisco should move away from a fault line; it is something else entirely to face the facts about a city now largely in ruins. It is no easy thing to wish your birthplace out of existence for its own good; the American habit, like with any challenge, is to fight back. But, in the end, demonstrations of perseverance aren't worth nearly as much as the lives they are meant to uplift.

Adam B. Kushner is assistant managing editor at TNR.

simon
15-10-2005, 13:47
An interesting article in today's Independent about the truth behind the stories of mayhem in New Orleans during the flood.

New Orleans: After the flood, the hard truths

Sharks in Canal Street? Snipers on rooftops? Terror in the Superdome? David Usborne sorts the reality from the myth to find out what really happened when Hurricane Katrina hit the Big Easy
Published: 15 October 2005

There was a fridge lying on a pavement of the French Quarter a couple of days ago. There are scrapped fridges everywhere in New Orleans right now, their doors taped shut to keep foul odours from seeping out. This one had writing scrawled across it. "Voodoo Party Tonight", it said in marker pen, giving a time and place.

Today, taking a break in a Bourbon Street bar, the talk turns to the same fridge. What was that all about? somebody asks. "Oh," replies another patron. "That was bullshit. Some freaky old man with a shopping trolley wrote that. I saw him do it." There was no voodoo party. (Or was there?)

Rumour and myth were always common currency in New Orleans. Black magic and ghost tours were touted to tourists, while the city's hanging moss and above-ground cemeteries inspired its once-resident celebrity author Anne Rice to write her vampire books. The image was deliberately cultivated of a metropolis that was not quite normal - a little out there - as well as vaguely scurrilous and irresponsible.

No wonder, perhaps, that just days after Hurricane Katrina roared across the Louisiana coastline weird and unlikely tales began to emerge. Remember the crocodiles roaming the Ninth Ward? Pictures of them were even posted on the internet, but it turned out they were taken years ago in Congo. There was also something about sharks cruising down Canal Street - ghoulish and obviously absurd.

Questions are now urgently being asked about some of the other stories that were circulating in the first days of the tragedy, which together created a picture of a city in outright anarchy, succumbing not just to Katrina but also to humankind's basest instincts. There were rapes and murders in the Superdome, bodies piled high in the basement of the Convention Centre and snipers firing on rescue helicopters.

Six weeks later, it seems many of the claims that were trafficked in New Orleans and amplified by the media had little or no evidence to support them. As manifold investigations into the storm and its aftermath get under way in the months ahead, both at the state and federal levels, part of the spotlight will be on finding out how much of what was reported was legend and how much was truth.

Whether anyone will be able fairly to apportion blame, however, is another thing. Was it the media that ran amok in the frenzy of those first post-Katrina days? Or were some of the evacuees themselves at fault for getting carried away, especially when put before a television camera? Or were local officials most guilty of exaggeration? Wasn't it 10,000 bodies that Mayor Ray Nagin said would be found when the waters receded? How come the latest death toll is just over 1,000, a tenth of his early estimate?

And wasn't it Mayor Nagin who went on national television three days after the storm and declared that the crowds left behind in New Orleans were somehow degenerating into an "almost animalistic state"? He said on The Oprah Winfrey Show that people left behind in the Superdome had for days been "watching dead bodies, watching hooligans killing people, raping people."

Leading the effort now to separate fact from fiction has been the New Orleans hometown newspaper, the Times-Picayune, which just last week was able to return from exile in Baton Rouge, an hour to the west, and re-inhabit its former headquarters.

"Few of the widely reported atrocities have been backed with evidence," was the conclusion of a recent investigation in the paper. "The piles of bodies never materialised, and soldiers, police officers and rescue personnel on the front lines say that although anarchy reigned at times and people suffered unimaginable indignities, most of the worst crimes reported at the time didn't happen."

To the best anyone can find out, there were six deaths inside the Superdome before the last evacuee was eventually shipped out by bus. Four of those seemingly were from natural causes and a fifth from a drug overdose. The sixth death was a suicide. Indeed, one story repeated with consistency by many of those who were inside was of a man standing on one of the arena's balconies and leaping off.

At the Convention Centre, four bodies were later discovered, of which one may have been the victim of a crime. It now seems, in fact, that there were four murders in all of New Orleans during the seven-day period after Katrina struck, about average for a city well accustomed to violence.

No one - not the editors at the Times-Picayune nor federal and state officials in New Orleans - will pretend now that they have a full accounting of what happened. There was no official record-keeper of the behaviour, criminal or otherwise, that went on inside the Superdome or anywhere else in the city for that matter. But few would disagree now that overstatements of the mayhem were made.

"Reports of bloodshed on the streets of the city were grossly inaccurate," the New Orleans District Attorney, Eddie Jordan, said this week. "And it's unfortunate that was the picture being represented to the public." The pattern appears the same when you examine all that was reported about shootings in the city, especially gunfire that was allegedly aimed at the rescue teams. So persuasive were some of the claims that rescue operations had to be halted at least once and precious time was lost for desperate victims, because pilots became fearful for their lives and their superiors ordered them back to base.

A spokesperson for the Coast Guard at the city emergency-operations centre told reporters on 1 September: "Hospitals are trying to evacuate. At every one of them, there are reports that as the helicopters come in, people are shooting at them." The same story was aired on CNN and across the world's media.

Yet today, officials at all the main agencies involved in plucking residents from rooftops - the Air Force, Coast Guard, Department of Homeland Security and Louisiana Air National Guard - say they have been unable to confirm a single case of their helicopters being fired upon. "We don't know of any shots ever fired directly at us," Captain Bob Mueller, commander of the Coast Guard in New Orleans, said.

Conversations over the past week with many of those who were in New Orleans in the immediate aftermath of the hurricane - rescuers and survivors - all carried a common theme. Among the things left behind by the storm's 140mph winds was a total information vacuum, created by a near complete breakdown of traditional means of communication. It was a handicap everyone struggled with.

That, for example, is what drove Roy Maggio bonkers, a resident who stayed with his large house on Esplanade Avenue through the storm and even after it passed. He was desperate to know just one thing, but there was no one to tell him. "I just wanted someone to give me an idea where sea-level was," he explained, standing on his front steps the other afternoon, gesturing horizontally with his right hand. "Was it here, here or here?" He had figured that the water would stop rising once it reached sea-level.

More critically, rescue personnel often could not communicate with each other or with their superiors. That, says David Banelli, a spokesman for the police union here, partly explains why there were so many stories of his members deserting their posts, which also, he insists, were exaggerated.

"We did have a couple of officers who got scared," he explained, but many simply got lost in the pandemonium.

"I was in Vietnam and the conditions here in New Orleans over those few days were worse than a year over there. Our people didn't have electricity to charge their radio batteries, so their communications were completely out. In many cases they lost track of their own units and joined other units. And then no one was able to radio anyone else to say where they were."

When the first evacuees from the Superdome reached the Astrodome in Houston at the end of the first week after the storm, many complained not just of the squalor but also of an information vacuum that left them in the dark as to what was going on, inside and outside. It is no surprise that many relied on the gossip of others to construct their versions of what had happened over those few days, multiple rapes and murders included

In this maelstrom of misinformation how much fault lies with the media? Senior reporters with the networks here said afterwards that it had been harder to cover events in New Orleans in those first days than the Iraq war. There was no petrol for their vehicles and even their satellite phones were useless.

Three days after the hurricane, Brian Williams, the anchorman for NBC News, did the evening bulletin live from the city after being able to discuss the line-up with his producers back in New York only once during the whole day.

Journalists are trained to check and double-check facts before passing them on to the public. But check where, with whom? This reporter was among those to pass on the experiences of evacuees in the Superdome as described to him on arrival in Texas. I reported only those claims that I heard from several sources. They included tales of a baby being discovered in a rubbish bin and of a young girl being raped and her chest slit open by a knife. Today, both horrors seem not to have happened.

Mayor Nagin's statement about a death toll of 10,000 became a headline around the world. As an assertion it was uncheckable. Defenders of the media will also point out that a senior official saying such a thing is an event in itself that nobody could have ignored. Nagin was not a lunatic, as far as anyone knew.

The New Orleans police superintendent, Eddie Compass, who has since resigned, also made comments that in hindsight fanned the hyperbole. "We have individuals who are getting raped; we have individuals who are getting beaten," he said on television about conditions in the evacuation centres. He also spoke on the record of "little babies being raped". Speaking to the Times-Picayune after stepping down, Mr Compass defended his words. "The information I had at the time, I thought it was credible," he said.

Why does all this matter? After all, New Orleans was hell in those few days, regardless of the actual numbers of rapes and murders. Nagin's overblown assertions arguably helped stir the federal government into finally delivering the scale of assistance that should have been there in the first place.

But here is another question, and a sensitive one, because it touches on matters of race. If the same hurricane had struck another big American city, wreaking the same degree of damage, would so many tall stories have been uttered and written about?

Jim Amoss, the editor of the Times-Picayune, stirred controversy recently when he said not. "If the dome and Convention Centre had harboured large numbers of middle-class white people, it would not have been a fertile ground for his kind of rumour-mongering."

Was the media content to go along with the unsubstantiated allegations of violence - even of baby rape (never mind crocodiles on Canal Street) - because it fitted a partially race-driven stereotype already scripted for New Orleans? If so, the press did the city and its people a terrible disservice, black or white.

"The mainstream media are only ever concerned with the negative stuff," contends Mr Banelli of the police union.

"The police were keeping this city alive during its darkest days under absolutely horrible conditions. But that's not what the media wanted to focus on."

haku
15-10-2005, 17:09
Thanks for the article simon

How come the latest death toll is just over 1,000, a tenth of his early estimate?Because he's a sick attention seeker?

Seriously though, it's good news for the local people that the death toll is much lower than what was previously announced. It does make the ealier statements that this disaster was of the same scale as the tsunami in south-east Asia look somewhat ridiculous now, if not insulting considering that the tsunami caused at least a hundred times more casualties.

The saddest thing is that because of those false reports, some of the poorest countries on the planet felt like they had to donate money to the richest country in the world while they themselves have so much misery on their soil.
In the end i wouldn't be surprised if the area affected by Katrina gets more money than the area affected by the tsunami even though the level of destruction is a hundred times lower.

Rachel
15-10-2005, 21:50
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4344332.stm

I just read that article and it made me shiver. It is so sad. :(

38,000 dead and they'll probably not recieve as much help as the USA did for hurricane Katrina, when Pakistan is really the place that needs help. Nothing like hurricane Katrina should even be compared to a disaster like the Asian earthquake and the Tsunami that happened last year. Of course a thousand deaths in America is still a tradegy, but it's not on the same magnitude as other disasters.

This earthquake will be forgotten by the majority of the world within a few weeks, yet hurricane Katrina will still be talked about. People seem to forget very easily when it comes to poor countries. :bum:

madeldoe
16-10-2005, 20:08
not to mention Hurricane Stan that hit Mexico..*shakes head*