PDA

View Full Version : Pope dies at 84. The new Pope.


Sean Jon
03-04-2005, 02:54
Pope John Paul II Dies at 84

2 hours, 4 minutes ago Europe - AP


By VICTOR L. SIMPSON, Associated Press Writer

VATICAN CITY - Pope John Paul II, who helped topple communism in Europe and left a deeply conservative stamp on the church that he led for 26 years, died Saturday night in his Vatican apartment, ending a long public struggle against debilitating illness. He was 84.


AP Photo


AP Photo
Slideshow: Pope John Paul II






Complete news coverage

• News & features
• Photos & slideshows
• Video, audio and more






"We all feel like orphans this evening," Undersecretary of State Archbishop Leonardo Sandri told the crowd of 70,000 that gathered in St. Peter's Square below the pope's still-lighted apartment windows.


A Mass was scheduled for St. Peter's Square for 10:30 a.m. (4:30 a.m. EDT) Sunday. The pope's body was expected to be taken to St. Peter's Basilica no earlier than Monday afternoon, the Vatican said.


It said the College of Cardinals — the red-robed "princes" of the Roman Catholic Church — would meet at 10 a.m. (4 a.m. EDT) Monday. They were expected to set a funeral date, which the Vatican said probably would be between Wednesday and Friday.


The statement did not give a precise cause of death.


Bells pealed in mourning after the Vatican said the pope died at 9:37 p.m. (2:37 p.m. EST). The assembled flock fell into a stunned silence before some people broke out in applause — an Italian tradition in which mourners often clap for important figures. Others wept.


John Paul's passing set in motion centuries of tradition that mark the death of the leader of the world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics, whom he led into the faith's third millennium.


The Vatican chamberlain formally verified the death and destroyed the symbols of the pope's authority: his fisherman's ring and dies used to make lead seals for apostolic letters.


The Vatican did not say if the chamberlain followed the ancient practice of verification by calling the pope's name three times and tapping his forehead three times with a silver hammer.


John Paul's funeral will be held within four to six days. The Vatican has declined to say whether he left instructions for his funeral or burial. Most popes in recent centuries have asked to be buried in the crypts below St. Peter's Basilica, but some have suggested the first Polish-born pope might have chosen to be laid to rest in his native country.


As John Paul's death neared, members of the College of Cardinals were already headed toward the Vatican to prepare for the secret duty of locking themselves in the Sistine Chapel to elect the next pope. Tradition calls for the process to begin within 20 days of death.


Among possible successors are German Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger — one of the pope's closest aides and the Vatican's doctrinal watchdog. Others mentioned include Brazilian Cardinal Claudio Hummes, Cardinal Oscar Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras, Cardinal Francis Arinze, a Vatican-based Nigerian, Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn of Austria and Cardinal Dionigi Tettamanzi of Italy.


Karol Joseph Wojtyla was a robust 58 when the last papal conclave stunned the world and elected the cardinal from Krakow, the first non-Italian pope in 455 years.


In his later years, John Paul — the most-traveled pope in history — was the picture of frailty. In addition to Parkinson's, he survived a 1981 assassination attempt, when a Turkish gunman shot him in the abdomen, and had hip and knee ailments. His anguished struggle with failing health became a symbol of aging and, in the end, death with dignity.


Outside the Vatican, the crowd of faithful recited the rosary. A seminarian slowly waved a large red and white Polish flag draped with a black band of mourning for the Polish-born pontiff.


Prelates asked those in the square to keep silent so they might "accompany the pope in his first steps into heaven."


As the bells tolled in mourning, a group of young people sang, "Alleluia, he will rise again," while one of them strummed a guitar. Later, pilgrims joined in singing the "Ave Maria."





"The angels welcome you," Vatican TV said after papal spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls announced the death of the pope, who had for years suffered from Parkinson's disease and came down with fever and infections in recent weeks.

In contrast to the church's ancient traditions, Navarro-Valls announced the death to journalists in the most modern of communication forms, an e-mail that said: "The Holy Father died this evening at 9:37 p.m. in his private apartment." The spokesman said church officials were following instructions that John Paul had written for them on Feb. 22, 1996.

"He was a marvelous man. Now he's no longer suffering," Concetta Sposato, a pilgrim who heard the pope had died as she was on her way to St. Peter's to pray, said tearfully.

"My father died last year. For me, it feels the same," said Elisabetta Pomacalca, a 25-year-old Peruvian who lives in Rome.

"I'm Polish. For us, he was a father," said pilgrim Beata Sowa.

In Washington, President Bush mourned the loss of "a good and faithful servant of God (who) has been called home" and said the pontiff "launched a democratic revolution that swept Eastern Europe and changed the course of history."

A fierce enemy of communism, John Paul set off the sparks that helped bring down communism in Poland, from where a virtual revolution spread across the Soviet bloc. No less an authority than former Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev said much of the credit went to John Paul.

But his Polish roots also nourished a doctrinal conservatism — opposition to contraception, abortion and women priests — that rankled liberal Catholics in the United States and western Europe.

A man who had lived under both the Nazis and the Soviets, he loathed totalitarianism, which he called "substitute religion." As pope, he helped foster Poland's Solidarity movement and bring down Communism. Once it was vanquished, he decried capitalist callousness.

During World War II, he appeared on a Nazi blacklist in 1944 for his activities in a Christian democratic underground in Poland. B'nai B'rith and other organizations testified that he helped Jews find refuge from the Nazis.

While the pope championed better relations with Jews — Christianity's "older brothers," as he put it — the Vatican formally recognized Israel in 1993. He also met with Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat and urged the Holy Land's warring neighbors to reconcile.

John Paul was intent on improving relations with Muslims. On a trip to Damascus, Syria, in May 2001, he became the first pope to step into a mosque.

The 264th pope also battled what he called a "culture of death" in modern society. It made him a hero to those who saw him as their rock in a degenerating world, and a foe to those who felt he was holding back social enlightenment.

"The church cannot be an association of freethinkers," John Paul said.

However, a sex abuse scandal among clergy plunged his church into moral crisis. He summoned U.S. cardinals to the Vatican and told them: "The abuse which has caused this crisis is by every standard wrong and rightly considered a crime by society; it is also an appalling sin in the eyes of God." Critics accused the pope of not acting swiftly enough.

Other critics said that while the pope championed the world's poor, he was not consistent when he rebuked Latin American priests who sought to involve the church politically through the doctrine of "liberation theology."

John Paul's health declined rapidly after he suffered heart and kidney failure following two hospitalizations in as many months. Just two hours before announcing his death, the Vatican had said he was in "very serious" condition, although he was responding to aides.

After his passing, Vatican, Italian and European Union flags were lowered to half-staff. In Washington, flags over the White House also were lowered.

People in John Paul II's hometown in Wadowice, Poland, fell to their knees and wept as the news reached them at the end of a special Mass in the church where he worshipped as a boy.

Church bells rang out after the announcement, but it took several minutes for people inside the packed church to find out as they continued their vigil into a second night.

Then the parish priest, the Rev. Jakub Gil, came to the front as the last hymn faded away. "His life has come to an end. Our great countryman has died," he said. People inside the church and standing outside fell to their knees.

The pope was last seen in public Wednesday when, looking gaunt and unable to speak, he briefly appeared at his window.

His health sharply deteriorated the next day after he suffered a urinary tract infection.

In its final medical statement Saturday, Navarro-Valls said John Paul was not in a coma and opened his eyes when spoken to. But he added: "Since dawn this morning, there have been first signs that consciousness is being affected."

"Sometimes it seems as if he were resting with his eyes closed, but when you speak to him he opens his eyes," Navarro-Valls said.

Navarro-Valls said the pope was still speaking late Friday but did not take part when Mass was celebrated in his presence Saturday morning.

He said aides had told the pope that thousands of young people were in St. Peter's Square on Friday evening. Navarro-Valls said the pope appeared to be referring to them when he seemed to say: "'I have looked for you. Now you have come to me. And I thank you.'"

yahoo.com news

:( sad day

kishkash
03-04-2005, 02:59
yah...sad day...

i can't continue living im so grief ridden...he touched my life in such a positive way :bum:

Crampaholic
03-04-2005, 03:04
LMFAO... oh come on.. get a grip.. a new pope will arrive and things will be just like b4 :p another person died something simple as simple as math :o

kishkash
03-04-2005, 03:05
how can u SAY such a thing boo...he was a gentle man...the BEST POPE THERE WAS! *restrains tears*

...how can i go on

spyretto
03-04-2005, 03:10
"What are they gonna say about him? What are they gonna say? That he was a kind man? That he was a wise man? That he had plans? That he had wisdom? Bullshit man!"

Ahem, from Apocalypse Now :lalala:

haku
03-04-2005, 03:12
John Paul II has led a very homophobic and misogynistic official policy, not to mention his ridiculous position on not using protection to prevent aids, i'm no fan of his. :rolleyes: His death won't change anything though, his successor will follow the same conservative policy.

Crampaholic
03-04-2005, 03:12
awww my condolences *gives a cookie* ok now wanna make out?

Crampaholic
03-04-2005, 03:14
yup see? a homophobic.. now u all gays? still feel sad about him? :D

kishkash
03-04-2005, 03:17
awww my condolences *gives a cookie* ok now wanna make out?
u wanna make out with amber? OOooOOO someone has a crush on haku :gigi:

John Paul II has led a very homophobic and misogynistic official policy, not to mention his ridiculous position on not using protection to prevent aids, i'm no fan of his.
w0rd...he was an asshole of the heighest order IMO. He turned a blind eye to his purple hats while they got enthralled in child molestation scandals...such a good man he was... :confused:

spyretto
03-04-2005, 03:18
I'm not gay and feel sad about it...thought about the mystery of life and death and all...then I realised I'm losing my faith.

kishkash
03-04-2005, 03:20
...i just wonder what's gonna happen when he gets to 'heaven' and realizes that he hasn't been the 'good man' everyone says he was. In order to be a 'representative of god' he has to be an accepting man...which he never was.

The new pope won't be anything better. Now the Dalai Lama is a person to model urself after :D

Crampaholic
03-04-2005, 03:22
he died to get a better life in heaven,.... if that exists :p

spyretto
03-04-2005, 03:25
..it depends, maybe God's also homophobic and misogynistic, It's a He after all, made woman out of man's ribs to obey man, and homosexuality is a big sin.

So John Paul II should be passimg Saint Peter's gates and going straight to God's open arms as we speak.

( Refer to the Old Testament for further details. )

forre
03-04-2005, 05:14
I think Pope did a good job if to consider on what side he was standing. Popes are the most influential people on this planet, so if to consider the ammount of resposibility and pressure it was put on him, he did it just fine.

I can't be really sad that a man died of aging. It's natural and sooner or later we all be there. There will be a new Pope and a new era of leadership. Maybe I could be sad if I knew him personally but I understand this hype around his death - people love global dramas. I bet some of them are sitting and crying now just like that, just for the drama's sake.

Sorry if it sounded a little callous, well ... I'm not but considering that every single minute several people die on this planet - I can't cry for all of them and the Pope is just one of many who died yesterday.

Sean Jon
03-04-2005, 06:09
i never really followed up on him during his life but i like him for what he did about the anti-semitism. he cleared up the story basically and helped prevent more and he eased up anti-semitism.

im not jewish but i am against anti-semitism and all racism at fact.

nath
03-04-2005, 09:32
I think Pope did a good job if to consider on what side he was standing. Popes are the most influential people on this planet, so if to consider the ammount of resposibility and pressure it was put on him, he did it just fine.
I can't be really sad that a man died of aging. It's natural and sooner or later we all be there..

I absolutely agree with this comment. Personnally I liked this man cause before Popes were kind of inaccessible mommies living in Vatican . Pope Jean-Paul II tried to travell a lot to share his Faith and carried with him a lot of warm feelings..He tried to be very active....I think his position about East countries was very courageous too, even if he was involved in this subject by his own story.

The evolution of the Christian Church is another story , i agree it doesn't follow the evolution of society about such delicate subject as AIDS and so on...but I keep respect for this man. I always liked him very much.

spyretto
03-04-2005, 10:38
I remember a few years ago he personally insisted to visit Greece and he was the first pope to issue a formal apology for "sins of action and omission" against the Orthodox Christians. Not sure if those Orthodox heads of Church themselves were deserving of such behavour but it was a bold decision on his part in any case.
So he was a man who wasn't afraid of responsibility.

taty994945
03-04-2005, 11:28
I think that pope guy had a kind face and he looked like a nice person. Rest in peace. :)

freddie
03-04-2005, 11:49
The first (and probably the last) slavic pope ever.

I have mixed feelings for him. He was a bit of an odd bird. Taking all the fanatical catholic views aside, he did do a lot of good to the world and to humanization of christianity. He did the historic move when he appologized for all the bad the catholic church did in the past, like oppressing Jews, women, minorities etc... He was also the first Pope to walk into a Mosk in Siria in an atempt to bridge the gap and lessen the hate between religions. He fought for the fall of communism in Poland and the iron curtain as a whole. He believed in freedom and realized that corrupted communist regimes weren't providing for it. Commendable.

But at the same time he had some seriously extreme conservative views, which most certainly don't belong to the 21st century. Yeah I know that the Catholic Church is a conseravtive organization in it's core, but still... these are the new times...it's time to move on. Despite all his preaching about women being equal he never allowed them to be admitted into priesthood. Which made then unequal by default. Then he proclaimed homosexuality as evil. I think I don't even have to say what he thought of homosexual marriages, then. Abstinence from sex was the only true way to God in his opinion. He was against abortion (which he called legalized mass-murder) and at the same time he was against contraception (oh, the irony). Can I still respect him despite all these bad sides to him? Actually... No. ... I can't respect a man who claimed homosexuality is the modern form of evil, or the one who didn't recognize women's right to have a choice over their own bodies, or who is against the use of condoms in Africa, which could save millions of lives. I'm sorry, but a person who thinks like that is either a hypocrite or a blinded conserative. Either way I can't respect him. All taht being said I can still appreciate the good things he did. He was an important figure in history. He's a definitive proof that no man is all good or all bad. It's just a matter of ballance between the two.

Can you imagine his reaction when he first realizes there's no heaven, though? (but like some other form of after-life completely unrelated to christian dogma). He'd be like: "WTF is this? What IS this shit? Were are Jesus and all the angels?!"

spyretto
03-04-2005, 14:11
Can you imagine his reaction when he first realizes there's no heaven, though? (but like some other form of after-life completely unrelated to christian dogma). He'd be like: "WTF is this? What IS this shit? Were are Jesus and all the angels?!"

IF there's anything at all, that is...Big IF

zebu
03-04-2005, 14:49
i think he did the best he could in an institution like catholic church. anyway all that conservative shit is part of that and no pope can change that specially not in short period of time. anyway he did good things for my country so i respect that.

to make jokes of someones death is just... i dont know, i dont do that

spyretto
03-04-2005, 14:58
Conservatism and the church go hand in hand. If there wasn't conservatism there wouldn't be any church. The very meaning of the word religion derives from moral conformity. The other extreme is communism, which as an ideological form abides to no religion.
It can't be any other way. It's just that modern societies are pushing towards the relaxation of some of the most conservative of the church's doctrines cause they don't seem to fit in today's world - and in what we come to know as "progress".

So I wouldn't point the finger on either the Pope, Catholicism or even religion itself for something that is a basic condition for its very existence.
If the scriptures say homosexuality is a sin, then it is. The Pope is but a servant of the Lord, and the Lord has conveyed His word through the Bible...end of story...

freddie
03-04-2005, 15:18
IF there's anything at all, that is...Big IF

Yeah, but if there's nothing then he wouldn't even have the chance to realize his mistake. That'd be daft. I hope he has at least the chance to look like a complete idiot. :p

So I wouldn't point the finger on either the Pope, Catholicism or even religion itself for something that is a basic condition for its very existence.
If the scriptures say homosexuality is a sin, then it is. The Pope is but a servant of the Lord, and the Lord has conveyed His word through the Bible...end of story...

The scriptures say A LOT of things. Like the stuff about freedom and the promised land for "the chosen nation" etc. I didn't see him being a freedom fighter on the west bank, fighting palestine terrotists. Selective reading, I'd call that. :p

spyretto
03-04-2005, 15:36
He couldn't do much, he condemned the wars and atrocities though. He was a religious leader not a secular leader.

KillaQueen
03-04-2005, 15:52
Well, forre and freddie said pretty much what I was thinking. Even though I am gay, I do respect him for his dedication. He was very old and ill and yet continued to do his job. He was a historical figure and his death is a historical moment.

freddie
03-04-2005, 15:56
I know. But if he would be absolutely diligent about the scriptures, he'd end up being an ortodox jew. :p

Also - celibate had no connection with ancient scriptures. Jesus and his Apostols could marry whoever they wanted as jewish rabbi's. Celibate came later for completely practical reasons. The Pope chose to ignore that.

My point is that he had his own set of morals and he applied them using parts of the scripture that complied with his views. Fair enough, I guess. But it doesn't make him this enlightened leader everyone's making him out to be. It's a fact he was an extremely conservative person, who couldn't completely adapt to the realities of the world today. I mean, the fact that people are dying in millions from AIDS in Africa and he condems the use of condoms or other contraceptive devices is laughable. You just can't defeat human nature. No one's going to remain celibate till marriage, just cause a religious doctrine tells him to do so. Religion is preaching abstinence for around 2.000 years, while evolution's dictating sexual experimentation for billions of years. Guess which one loses out at the end? :p ... saying someone should remain sexualy inactive till marriage is like telling them not to eat or drink till the age of 25.

zebu
03-04-2005, 16:13
those set of morals werent just his, those r set of morals of whole catholic church. im not catholic, im an atheist, but i know how to respect other ppls beliefs. if someone wants not to have sex, its their choice just like i have my choices. and comparing that to eat and drink :confused: i dont think we r animals and cannot restrain ourselves if we want too.

spyretto said pretty much my thoughts

forre
03-04-2005, 16:41
They called him a champion of peace. What a title! Idiots!

Hmmm .. to switch slightly over into another ceremony that is likely to be postponed - Prince Charles wedding .. Oh-la-la. I mean, even if he pulls the ceremony, he'll loose his last shades of popularity among people. Looks like odds are against Charlie.

spyretto
03-04-2005, 16:44
I know. But if he would be absolutely diligent about the scriptures, he'd end up being an ortodox jew. :p

Also - celibate had no connection with ancient scriptures. Jesus and his Apostols could marry whoever they wanted as jewish rabbi's. Celibate came later for completely practical reasons. The Pope chose to ignore that.

Jesus could be gay for all we know ;) But, hey, is there really a direct reference in the Bible that states Jesus was celibate? let alone that he preached the need for celibacy? We know almost nothing of his life until he became a rabbi. And most importantly... is there a direct reference in the Bible that states homosexuality is a sin, too?

Or is it yet another stratagem divised by the church to brand everybody as sinful while they were burning people at the stake? Maybe we should ask Lena Katina about it, she might know... :eek:

So here's a potential "pope" - (i.e fraud) for you ;)

yeah zebu is right, they treat everybody as sheep in a flock, because they're weak themselves. "If hand hurts I cut hand". Nice logic

freddie
03-04-2005, 17:52
Actually Jesus never said ANYTHING about celibate. As a rabbi he had no restrictions against marriage. Never once did he or the apostols even mention the subject. Celibate started later when the church didn't want priests offspring to inherit churches land and possesions. Celibate was a very elegant wayof "solving the problem". It's a tradition, not a doctrine or a dogma. No one even denied, that Jesus wasn't for celibate himself. Infact some people believe he was married and had children. Which would certaninly make sense for a jewish rabbi.

I don't think homosexuality being a sin (I'm not sure though) is ever mentioned in the original scripture. Not the old nor the new testament. There are parts anti-gay parts in it now, but those are presumed supposed to be added (like many other unneccesary crap) in the middle ages. Infact Apostols themselves always seemed like a pretty homoerotic society themselves. Worshiping a man, fraternising with a group of men. :p Dunno what Jews thought of homosexuality in those days... but the part where Jesus lived was a Roman protectorate, and I'm sure they got some of their habits incorporated into their society. And we all know Romans considered homoeroticism as something natural, just like the Greeks did.

Anyway, to Zebu: it's one thing to respect people's choice not to have sex. I respect those. But I can't respect forcing your views on others, much like the Pope did. He clearly stated that the use of condoms was WRONG. Even in the case of Africa where millions could be saved with proper protection. He was clearly delusional if he thought the whole of Africa will stop having sex just 'cause he proclaimed it as wrong. That's forcing your opinion, and your morals on people. That was seriously uncool of the Pope to do.

zebu
03-04-2005, 20:00
Anyway, to Zebu: it's one thing to respect people's choice not to have sex. I respect those. But I can't respect forcing your views on others, much like the Pope did. He clearly stated that the use of condoms was WRONG. Even in the case of Africa where millions could be saved with proper protection. He was clearly delusional if he thought the whole of Africa will stop having sex just 'cause he proclaimed it as wrong. That's forcing your opinion, and your morals on people. That was seriously uncool of the Pope to do.

i know what pope said. :rolleyes:
if the churches view of sex is only for procreation then its normal that they say dont use condoms.
he was forcing them not to use condoms but he couldnt force them to stop having sex :confused:

QueenBee
03-04-2005, 20:33
I don't know much about him and what he's done, but yes it's pretty sad to see a person die, especially since he was an important figure to many.

Other than that it was nothing special to me finding out since people die everyday like crampaholic said... at least he died a natural death.

freddie
03-04-2005, 22:57
i know what pope said. :rolleyes:
if the churches view of sex is only for procreation then its normal that they say dont use condoms.
he was forcing them not to use condoms but he couldnt force them to stop having sex :confused:

See the paradox, though? He didn't force them to stop having sex, but he did indirectly force them not to use condoms? I mean ... that's like not being that bothered with someone riding a motorbike, but forbid them from wearing a helmet. He'd ADVISE them not to ride it, cause that is the "proper way". Yet he knew that people will still be riding bikes all over the place. And dying in the process.

haku
04-04-2005, 08:33
He was against abortion (which he called legalized mass-murder)

This is particularly ironic coming from a man who was leading an organization that created one of the most efficient tools of mass-murder of history, the Inquisition, a branch of the Catholic Church whose sole purpose was to arrest, torture, and execute anyone who wasn't Catholic enough. During centuries, Catholic priests have happily tortured people using some of the most abominable torture utensils ever invented by man, the Catholic Church has more blood on its hands than any other organization in world history.
The Catholic Church often claims to be against oppression, which is a historical lie. Throughout history, the Catholic Church has always been on the side of absolute rulers, actively participating in the oppression of the people. (When French people revolted in 1789, they revolted against the absolute Monarch, but also against the Catholic Church that was regarded as part of the oppressive regime.) And in South America, during the conquest by the Spanish, the Catholic Church was on the side of the Conquistadors, the Catholic Church participated in the destruction and enslavement of the local people, for their "own good" of course, they needed to be taught the message of love of Jesus, even if that meant whipping them to death until they understood. And i'm not even talking of the lovely crusades and the massacre of Muslim tribes, the massacres of protestants in Europe, etc... All done by the Catholic Church in the name of god.
And finally, in the early 20th century, the Catholic Church was on the side of Fascism, it openly supported Mussolini, Franco, and every right wing totalitarian movement in Europe. After WWII, the Catholic Church protected Nazi collaborators and even helped some Nazi criminals to flee to South America. The Catholic Church did fight communism, but only because it was an atheist movement, otherwise it wouldn't have any problems with it. The Catholic Church is a totalitarian religious organization and it has always worked very well with totalitarian political movements, as long as they support Christianity as the official religion.
And let's not forget the way the Catholic Church even recently has always protected child molesters among its priests, i guess raping a child is not a sin according to the bible.

forre
04-04-2005, 16:49
Catholic church needs reformation. If it wants to survive, it will have to do something about changing some of its ideology and it is surelly gonna do.

nath
04-04-2005, 19:05
I think about catholic church that you have 2 parts inside...the leaders and the common priests...
In our country , during centuries, in rich or powerful families , you had to have one son in the army, and one other son in the church system....so it wasn't there a question of Faith, it was a question of "standing" , of way of life....
But i think there is another part...the priests who were living in the countryside...they were poor most of the time...Of course , they were speaking for the ideas of their own party but i think they were too, concretly helping the farmers or the poors...because they understood their situation...they knew too what was the poverty....
I have respect for this part of the church..

And about Jerusalem...sorry but I absolutely understand their crusades....Jerusalem was the Jews Holy Place and the Christians' Holy Place during centuries before it was invaded...so I think it's logical that they've tried to go there to free a place which was the symbol of our Faith and our Cultur...

The inquisition killed a lot of people , I agree..and i'm not going to say "it's good!"....but I don't think it's only the priviledge of Catholic Church...

When the Muslims travelled from La Mecque, Médine towards Poitiers in France , I don't think they succed in a such big project just in saying "Hello , guys...it's us ....could we pass and make an invasion of your country just with Peace & Love ?....".....I think they used their weapons too....

PS: and about anti-sémitisme, Jean-Paul II had the courage to say to the Jews :" Sorry for the actions of the Church against you...please forgive the Church.."....I think it was a courageous and correct speach, not so easy to make in a such environment...but he did it .

Jean-Paul II was the representant of the Catholic Church so I understand that people who hate the Church and Religion could dislike him...but throught the different Popes, I think he was one of the best and of the most Human (in the humanitary meaning) Popes.

the Catholic Church has more blood on its hands than any other organization in world history.
.
How many people have killed Mao Tsé-Tong , Pol Pot, Staline and Castro...and in just how many decenies , instead of centuries?....;)
For your information , Pol Pot killed 2 millions of Cambodgians just in 4 years...

Everybody has killed..and everywhere on this earth .

haku
04-04-2005, 19:44
but I don't think it's only the priviledge of Catholic Church...
Oh, i was certainly not saying that any other religion is better, i dislike all religions equally. Religions have always been the primary source of hate and war throughout history, the day people will be able to free themselves from the dictatorship of gods, the planet will be a much more peaceful place.

haku
05-04-2005, 19:41
Some quotes from John Paul II...

In his latest book, John Paul II said: "Homosexual marriages are part of a new ideology of evil that is insidiously threatening society".

In another book, John Paul II also said that abortion was a "legal extermination comparable to attempts to wipe out Jews and other groups in the 20th century".

freddie
05-04-2005, 23:05
I think the crusades, where they used children as live shields and the spanish inquisition are much closer to the holocaust, then abortion is.

And homosexual marriages, as well as homosexuals themselves are indeed evil. They should be systematicaly extermi... naah wait. That's too much like abortion. A big no, no. They should be put in some special reform schools where they'd learn all about the attractions of the opposite sex and the ways of the Lord. Because you see.. God is NOT a homosexual. If God would date, he'd date a female god.

kishkash
06-04-2005, 03:08
now i know how jean d'arc felt...now i know how jean d'arc felt *taps her foot and sings along*

forre
13-04-2005, 21:28
Oh, this this hillarious ... they are actually betting on who will be the next Pope. I mean seriously, the cardinals are all lined up at the bookmaker's. I can't believe it! :bum:

spyretto
13-04-2005, 22:53
The betting was on before the Pope died forre. It's been around for some time...

forre
19-04-2005, 18:39
All right! We've got a new Pope - Benedict XVI (former Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger of Germany).

Once the archbishop of Munich, Germany, and for many years prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, Ratzinger, 78, was one of the most powerful men in the Vatican and is widely acknowledged as a leading theologian.

Ratzinger served for 20 years as John Paul II's chief theological adviser.

As a young priest he was on the progressive side of theological debates but shifted to the right after the student revolutions of 1968.

In the Vatican, he has been the driving force behind crackdowns on liberation theology, religious pluralism, challenges to traditional moral teachings on issues such as homosexuality, and dissent on such issues as women's ordination.

The dean of the College of Cardinals since November 2002, he was elevated to cardinal by Pope Paul VI in June 1977.

KillaQueen
19-04-2005, 19:04
He's what?! 78 ?? Dear Lord! I surely thought they'd pick a younger one. What, they're trying to make all the cardinals take turns at becoming popes before they die or something? :bum: Dont want to be mean, but it is a bit odd that they named a guy this old the new pope.

forre
19-04-2005, 19:09
He's what?! 78 ??
Actually, it's quite an ordinary thing for Vatican. On the contrary, when John Paul II was elected at the age of 60+, it was considered to be a sort of extraordinary thing. He was a sort of too young. 78 is an okay age for Pope. Normally, at 78 you have enough life experience and become calm and humble. That's good for a Pope.

haku
19-04-2005, 19:29
All right! We've got a new Pope - Benedict XVI (former Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger of Germany).
Cool :rolleyes: Ratzinger is an ultra conservative right wing extremist, even more homophobic and misogynistic than John Paul II, he is opposed to an eucumenical approach with other Christians (not to mention Jews or Muslims), and he considers atheists as pure evil. The Catholic Church is going to take a very conservative route, nothing surprising though.

forre
19-04-2005, 19:34
Cool Ratzinger is an ultra conservative right wing extremist, even more homophobic and misogynistic than John Paul II, he is opposed to an eucumenical approach with other Christians (not to mention Jews or Muslims), and he considers atheists as pure evil. The Catholic Church is going to take a very conservative route, nothing surprising though.

Absolutely cool! The earlier Catholic church recognises its inconsistency approaching social issues, the better. The Pope is old. We give him 5 years as most.

P.S. All cardinals are ultra conservative, otherwise they wouldn't have become cardinals. Nothing else can be expected there.

QueenBee
19-04-2005, 19:56
I saw the white smoke on TV and I was all like "WTF? Already I new one?" My unknowing mind thought it would take longer... oh well.

He's too old. For all we know he might die in a couple of years, I think it would be better with a younger pope who would be able to experience more (hopefully) and grow as his 'followers' grow, you know? Grow together and experience together with people.

I am so going to name my kid Benedict. How cool is that name? SO cool.

freddie
19-04-2005, 20:11
I think this guy is a pass-time to soften the transition from John Pauls rulling to where the church is inevitably heading - more leniency towards difficulult issues such as homosexuality, abortion and divorce, and less conservatism. The cardinals just thought the time for that hasn't come yet, so they voted for the middle-man - a safe choice, who'll prolongue the wait for a more liberal church for a few years. An ultra conservative who'll just continue with John Paul's doctrine for a few years until his near end. There's no way this guy's gonna last for more then 5-10 years from now, and everyone (including himself) knows that.

German though? Oi! I heard he was even in Hitler's "jugend" (Hitler's youth), in his glory-days. And his convictions regarding homosexuals is even more radical then the last Pope's was. Nor does he thing the celibate rules should change. We definitely have another guy who's stuck in a different century then the rest of us are, but hey... it's only temporary. :p

Oh... and he was in charge of the congregation for the teachings of the faith, which is the official descendant of Inquisition. Ick.

forre
19-04-2005, 20:26
I think this guy is a pass-time to soften the transition from John Pauls rulling to where the church is inevitably heading
It looks like being the case here. The analysts say the same.

11Russia
19-04-2005, 22:33
I don't like the new pope it's very conservative
I don't think that Mexico will love that pope as John Paul II

zebu
20-04-2005, 11:26
German though? Oi! I heard he was even in Hitler's "jugend" (Hitler's youth), in his glory-days.

whats wrong with being german? all boys that age there had to be in hitler jugend, besides he could leave it quickly cause he was going to be a priest

Crampaholic
20-04-2005, 16:43
oh shit... :blabla: