Major U.S. Chain Store Sued Over CD Lyrics

[Mossopp]

I read this on MSN News. It's so petty and ridiculous that I had to laugh.

Wal-Mart Sued Over Evanescence CD Lyrics

Wal-Mart Stores Inc., which promotes itself as a seller of clean music, deceived customers by stocking compact discs by the rock group Evanescence that contain the f-word, a lawsuit claims.
The hit group's latest CD and DVD, "Anywhere But Home," don't carry parental advisory labels alerting potential buyers to the obscenity. If they did, Wal-Mart wouldn't carry them, according to the retailer's policy.
But the lawsuit claims Wal-Mart knew about the explicit lyrics in the song, "Thoughtless," because it censored the word in a free sample available on its Web site and in its stores.
The complaint, filed Thursday in Washington County Circuit Court, seeks an order requiring Wal-Mart to either censor or remove the music from its Maryland stores.
It also seeks damages of up to $74,500 for each of the thousands of people who bought the music at Wal-Marts in Maryland.
"I don't want any other families to get this, expecting it to be clean. It needs to be removed from the shelves to prevent other children from hearing it," said plaintiff Trevin Skeens of Brownsville.
Skeens said he and his wife, Melanie, let their daughter buy the music for her 13th birthday and were shocked when they played it in their car while driving home.
Wal-Mart, of Bentonville, Ark., has no immediate plans to pull the CDs from its shelves, spokesman Guy Whitcomb told The (Hagerstown) Herald-Mail. He said the company will investigate the allegations. No hearing dates have been set.
"While Wal-Mart sets high standards, it would not be possible to eliminate every image, word or topic that an individual might find objectionable," Whitcomb told the newspaper.
He told the Herald-Mail that the song sample online was censored by Walmart.com, a separate division of Wal-Mart.
Whitcomb didn't return telephone calls Friday from The Associated Press.
The lawsuit also names as defendants Wind-up Records LLC, the New York-based company that recorded the music and decided not to apply parental-advisory stickers; and distributor BMG Entertainment, a subsidiary of Sony BMG Music Entertainment, of New York.
Sony BMG declined to comment on the lawsuit. Wind-up didn't return calls from the AP.
The Skeens' lawyer, Jon D. Pels of Bethesda, said he aims to "take this case national, even if that means going state by state."
He dismissed Whitcomb's suggestion that Wal-Mart stores didn't know about the censored version of the song. "They are a multimillion-dollar corporation and they certainly can communicate among their various entities," he said.

It's good to know that, even through all the turmoil and unrest going on in this world today, people haven't lost sight of what's important. It's not the threat of war, hunger, poverty, drugs or even gun violence that's the issue in America right now. No, the real issue at hand here is that under no circumstances should any 13 year-old girls be allowed to buy a CD which features 2 (yes, there were only 2) uses of "the f-word"!
It's no wonder society is going to hell when Amy Lee can't keep her language clean!

:rolleyes:

[QueenBee]

The sad thing is that I'm not surprised. :rolleyes:

[Unplugged]

The sad thing is that I'm not surprised.
Me neither. After sueing and fining TV networks for showing a nipple, everything is possible in that country :rolleyes:

[spyretto]

I think the lawsuit is technically right and ethical. If they're required to have a sticker to say " Parental advisory: explicit lyrics" and they didn't include it, then the lawsuit is right.

My opinion on the whole parental advisory issue is a whole different matter. It's America we're talking about... :bum:

We're not all living in America after all

[Mossopp]

I think the lawsuit is technically right and ethical. If they're required to have a sticker to say " Parental advisory: explicit lyrics" and they didn't include it, then the lawsuit is right.
Do you own the CD in question? Because I do and Amy only says the word "fuck" twice, and she says it so fast that you can barely make it out.
'Anywhere But Home' is a live CD and a pretty poor one at that. You can barely make out the lyrics for the incessant crowd noise in the background.
Anyway, 'Thoughtless' (the song in question) isn't even an Evanescence track - it was written by Korn several years ago. Evanescence shouldn't be copping the shit for this - it should be Korn.
More to the point, why should anyone be copping any shit for this? It's a word - one stupid word - that everyone has heard so many times in their life that it no longer holds any meaning, let alone causes offence!
It's rock music. It's not watered down for the masses and sanitised for the kiddies. If Amy Lee wants to say "fuck" then let her!
I want to know why everyone is fussing over 2 uses of the "f-word" on the CD when the exploits and shennanigans on the accompanying DVD are far worse. None of it bothers me - in fact I found it fucking hilarious! - but why aren't the extreme right up in arms about Amy and Co defacing a Bible, trashing hotels, cross-dressing, getting shit-faced on jello-shots and just generally being a public nuisance? Surely that's worse than saying "fuck" a couple of times?
And is any of it really worth $74,500? I don't think so.

[spyretto]

I don't own the CD in question, but I know that at times they put warning stickers where there's only a minimum amount of swearing and at other times they forget to label clearly more "obsence" material as you very well pointed out...maybe they only target the most popular records -like Evanescence's - or maybe the small shop owners take the stickers away? Maybe some decision makers are narrowminded bigots and others are not? They're not very consistent, in any case.

Yeah, it's all rock n' roll but I wouldn't quite go with your statement about letting anything go - if that's your statement :)

Do Evanescence have a new album? I think I saw something on TV...is it as good?

[Mossopp]

Do Evanescence have a new album? I think I saw something on TV...is it as good?
'Anywhere But Home' is the new album, although technically it's not "new". It's a live recording of the bands concert at The Zenith in Paris during the 'Fallen' World Tour. There are a few lesser known tracks on it including 'Farther Away', 'Breath No More', 'Missing' and the Korn cover 'Thoughtless'. Apart from these it's just the same old same old tracks from the 'Fallen' album that have already been played to death.
'Anywhere But Home' is only worth buying for the DVD that comes with it. The CD may be rather disappointing but the DVD is awesome. As well as having the entire Zenith concert presented in 5.1 surround sound and anamorphic widescreen, it also includes all of the bands videos to date and over an hour of behind the scenes footage and interviews.
It's the behind the scenes stuff that makes the whole thing worth buying. Ever wondered what it'd be like to see Amy and the rest of Evanescence dress up in gorrilla costumes and destroy everything they come into contact with? Probably not. But it's one hell of a funny sight, I can assure you! The whole DVD is filled with crazy stuff like that. I can't remember the last time I laughed so hard!
"My clothes smell like an ass-crack!!!" :laugh:

[ypsidan04]

I read this on MSN News. It's so petty and ridiculous that I had to laugh.

[size=1]Wal-Mart Sued Over Evanescence CD Lyrics

:rolleyes:

Yeah, and I don't give a shit. About this stupidness or Walmart in general. I don't care, that's a great song. :cool:
I think the lawsuit is technically right and ethical. If they're required to have a sticker to say " Parental advisory: explicit lyrics" and they didn't include it, then the lawsuit is right.

You don't put a sticker on a CD that has two instances out of 13 or 14 songs. :rolleyes:
Do you own the CD in question? Because I do and Amy only says the word "fuck" twice, and she says it so fast that you can barely make it out.

I'll tell you what, when I heard that song live in July, I didn't pick it up. I wasn't until the first time I heard a recording of it online that I realized those words were in there. So you're right.
'Anywhere But Home' is a live CD and a pretty poor one at that. You can barely make out the lyrics for the incessant crowd noise in the background.

I don't think it's that bad. :)

I want to know why everyone is fussing over 2 uses of the "f-word" on the CD when the exploits and shennanigans on the accompanying DVD are far worse. None of it bothers me - in fact I found it fucking hilarious! - but why aren't the extreme right up in arms about Amy and Co defacing a Bible, trashing hotels, cross-dressing, getting shit-faced on jello-shots and just generally being a public nuisance? Surely that's worse than saying "fuck" a couple of times?

I can't call you a liar. :D

[QueenBee]

Well, if you look at it from another point of view it's still fair, because if you need to put a sticker where there are explicit words, then you should do it nomatter how many words there are in the first place.

I still find it stupid, though. Censorship suxxxx!!!111

[thegurgi]

Well, maybe you need to understand the type of people who SHOP at wal-mart. It's mostly families with children and seniors. It's not the kind of place that would even need to sell these things. Plus, and i've seen this with my own eyes and done it, a child finds a cd and shows it to their parents and they either say yes or no, and those little labels help a lot. Cause trust me, this isn't an issue for teenagers or non-children bearing adults, but for parents , and in which case i think this is perfectly understandable for there to be such a label. This isn't censorship this is a warning label ... they can still have those words... Wal-Mart just won't sell it, cause they don't need that kind of stuff, it's a family and convience store not a record store

[coolasfcuk]

It's rock music. It's not watered down for the masses and sanitised for the kiddies. If Amy Lee wants to say "fuck" then let her!

And WHO isnt letting her to say the word 'FUCK'??? :rolleyes: She can say 'fuck, fuck, fuck" all she wants and people wouldnt give a FUCK! This isnt the issue at hand, AT ALL. The issue is simple, following simple standards reinforced by the law...and it involves Wall-mart, not amy Lee, it could've been Hubba Bubba's CD for that matter ( but definatelly not t.A.T.u.'s CD, as the lable censorded it so it wouldnt have that sticker! OMG, i cant believe you bought watered down cd for the children!)
If there is a law that says CDs which contain words like fuck should have a warning sticker at places like wall-mart (which is NOT a record store but a place where you are more likely to buy pampers for your baby), then those people have the legal right to sue! No one is telling Amy Lee to water down her music (which by the way i find shitty anyway and cant see who would want to waste their money on it) or sanitise it for the children.

[spyretto]

And WHO isnt letting her to say the word 'FUCK'??? :rolleyes: She can say 'fuck, fuck, fuck" all she wants and people wouldnt give a FUCK! This isnt the issue at hand, AT ALL. The issue is simple, following simple standards reinforced by the law...and it involves Wall-mart, not amy Lee, it could've been Hubba Bubba's CD for that matter ( but definatelly not t.A.T.u.'s CD, as the lable censorded it so it wouldnt have that sticker! OMG, i cant believe you bought watered down cd for the children!)
If there is a law that says CDs which contain words like fuck should have a warning sticker at places like wall-mart (which is NOT a record store but a place where you are more likely to buy pampers for your baby), then those people have the legal right to sue! No one is telling Amy Lee to water down her music (which by the way i find shitty anyway and cant see who would want to waste their money on it) or sanitise it for the children.

I concur to that!! We don't need any more of that liberal BS - although I consider myself a liberal somehow :bum: but If you want to fight the bigots you gotta do it in their own game, not crying like p****s about everything; instead to identify the problem, work out the solution, hit at the right time, never run but smile ;) . Small time record shop owners do that anyway.
Though I wouldn't go as far to say Amy's music is "shitty", I understand that opinion too. As they say in Greek, " about taste, pumpkin pie"; meaning that one person's "awesomeness" can be another person's "shitness". But from what I've heard so far, I wouldn't say that this album is particularly any good, and if I'm not mistaken, the guitarist and main musical force of that band has departed due to "artistic differences". I might be wrong about both the departure and the album's quality, though.

Either way, stickers on CDs are a good idea. You can buy those knowing that they're even more disturbing to conservative bigots...otherwise they'd go completely unnoticed... ;)

[coolasfcuk]

I concur to that!! We don't need any more of that liberal BS - although I consider myself a liberal somehow :bum: but If you want to fight the bigots you gotta do it in their own game, not crying like p****s about everything; instead to identify the problem, work out the solution, hit a the right time, never run but smile ;) . Small time record shop owners do that anyway.
:D ha ha spy, i consider myself a liberal somehow as well. I was just stating simple facts. Im not exactly sure what my opinion is on those stickers, to tell you the truth, I am not even sure how they work, does every store have them or not, because as you said, small record stores, privatelly owned are not the same story as wall-mart store for pampers. Same for the major movies and their ratings in the west, I grew up in Bulgaria, where there is NO such thing as a movie rating ... and to tell you the truth I have been carded going to the movies once!!! ha ha, i just bursted out laughing.... and if you only knew for what movie 'Blair Witch broject' :laugh: ... i laughed even harded when i was exiting the cinema!
Agree on how 'bigots', or anybody else for that matter, should be fought with their own game.

[Mossopp]

I think certain people's negative opinion of Evanescence is skewing their views on this subject. But that's by the by.
Since the age of 4 I've been listening to all different forms of rock music and, as I'm sure everyone is aware, most rock bands aren't scared of using colourful language. So let's see, I've been listening to "explicit" lyrics for the past 18 years......... has it done me any harm? No. I mean, for Christs sake, there's a hell of a lot of worse shit out there in the world that kids are being exposed to every day. Just cos their right-wing, conservative parents wrap the kids up in cotton wool and won't let them listen to any naughty words isn't gonna help them in the real world. When I was 12 (or thereabouts) I bought a Cypress Hill album (I know, what was I thinking? :rolleyes: ) that had a massive 'parental advisory' sticker slapped accross the front cover. My mother gave me permission to listen to it as much as I wanted as long as I never repeated any of the profanities myself. She didn't sue HMV for selling me a stupid cassette tape (this was back in the olden days when people still had tape-decks ;) )!
Who gives a shit if someone wants to swear? It happens and you hear it every day - the only way anyone could possibly avoid it is to go around wearing earplugs 24/7. I'm not suggesting that makes it ok, all I'm saying is that it's commonplace now so deal with it.
It's bands that have crazy right-wing/homophobic/mysoginistic/racist lyrics that should be getting stickers slapped on their CD's. Not some faux-goth band who, judging on what I've seen, are some of the nicest people one could ever hope to encounter.

[coolasfcuk]

It happens and you hear it every day - the only way anyone could possibly avoid it is to go around wearing earplugs 24/7. I'm not suggesting that makes it ok, all I'm saying is that it's commonplace now so deal with it.
If someone's view on the subject is screwed, it is definatelly not mine ;)

Lets see, the parents that are suing are on the very right, and you are on the very left ... lets just say that middle ground is the best place to be.

Of course i dont aprove of parents who try to shield their kids from all 'bad', believe me, ive met such people since ive lived in America. But you cant expect everyone to live the same way. 'Its a common place so deal with it' is such a 2D way of giving answer to the subject, it is just the same as them .. 'we shouldnt hear it, so deal with it!'
All of this is so culture related anyway. You also come from a western Euro country.... so your mom let you get the tape. should she get an award? :confused: , well there are lots of American moms that would do the same. And if we start comparing like this, like I said, where i grew up there is NO such thing of censoring bad words or advisory stickers AT ALL, even today as far as i know.

What this is about Wal-Mart deceiving the customers, it should have a sticker and it didnt. Im not agreeing with the parents point of view, but they have every legal right to sue, that's all.

p.s. just as info for you, I grew up exposed to Metal Music since i was a tiny baby, and believe me, most the bands ive heard you mention would make my brother shiver, as they are what he considers 'sissy'/'commercialized' Metal wanna-bes, that said in case you want to argue with me for my music tastes.

[Mossopp]

I don't want to get into a "more metal than thou" debate with anyone. That's not what this thread is about. When your brother can say without a word of a lie that he practically shook Alex Varkatzas' hand at a sold-out gig in front of a couple hundred people then I'll get into a debate about what's metal and what's not.

[coolasfcuk]

I didnt know that shaking someone's hand is metal. :rolleyes:

of course we wont have that debate, Metal means nothing to me, my memory is overburnt with it from childhood ... god, am i happy to not live in eastern europe anymore where you have to share room with your 10 years older brother, who is a gay heavy metal fan :laugh:

... so, then, what about wal-mart and the fuck word?

[Mossopp]

I didnt know that shaking someone's hand is metal.
I knew you wouldn't know who Alex Varkatzas is. :rolleyes:

... so, then, what about wal-mart and the fuck word?
Ah, fuck Wal-mart! :p

[coolasfcuk]

I knew you wouldn't know who Alex Varkatzas is. :rolleyes:

:confused: eh? I really like the way you 'conversate' ... sorry, but now i cant stop.

Knowing that the guy is frontman of some California, second stage Ozzfest band called 'Atreyu' had nothing to do with what you've said. I still wonder why shaking his hand IS metal? ... or makes you MORE metal? Are you saying that if I told you my brother had sex with Rob Halford once after a concert that he is the Metalest of the Metals? :lol: and in this case then you would not even be qualified, as your hand shaking is nearly not a close experience as engaging in sex act with a metal legend? ....

[Mossopp]

Whatever.
If you don't think meeting the lead vocallist/lyricist in one of the best up-and-coming and promising rock bands at their first sell-out show is anything special then I don't know what else to say to you. You and I are obviously very different.
I got to sing practically face-to-face with one of my idols. I'm so sorry you're not impressed. :rolleyes:
And if your brother wants to have sex with Rob Halford then that's entirely his business.
Lame analogy, btw. *yawn*

Fuck it.

Let's get back on-topic, please.

[coolasfcuk]

Whatever.
If you don't think meeting the lead vocallist/lyricist in one of the best up-and-coming and promising rock bands at their first sell-out show is anything special then I don't know what else to say to you. You and I are obviously very different.
I got to sing practically face-to-face with one of my idols. I'm so sorry you're not impressed.
Im not denying the fact it is special to you, and Im glad you got to shake his hand. However, I still cant see how that makes you MORE metal than people who havent shaken his hand? :confused: You got the part about us being different right though. I guess I just dont obsess about musicians like that. This only makes me think of the recent thing that happened with that Dinebag guy and the obsessive fan that shot few people! Of course, I am not saying you are like that (I hope you arent), but just in reference to any big obsessions.... regardless of the object of the obsession

And if your brother wants to have sex with Rob Halford then that's entirely his business.
Lame analogy, btw. *yawn*
oh, Im sorry, I forgot, sex is not good thing in metal, perhaps i should have said 'burnt Rob Halford and drank his ashes mixed with his own blood"? (excuse the generalization)


Let's get back on-topic, please.
well, i wish we would, but im afraid the topic has ran out :smoke:

[Mossopp]

I guess I just dont obsess about musicians like that. This only makes me think of the recent thing that happened with that Dinebag guy and the obsessive fan that shot few people! Of course, I am not saying you are like that (I hope you arent), but just in reference to any big obsessions....
You don't need to worry about me. I'm not the type who goes around shooting guitarists.
Nathan Gale wasn't an "obsessive fan" of Dimebag Darrell - the general consensus is that Gale shot Dime because he blamed him for the break-up of Pantera.
And I was fucking upset when Dimebag was killed. Music means a lot to me and I get the impression that you're taking the piss out of me for it.
Don't.

oh, Im sorry, I forgot, sex is not good thing in metal, perhaps i should have said 'burnt Rob Halford and drank his ashes mixed with his own blood"? (excuse the generalization)
Not only are you twisting everything I say, you're also making broad generalisations and stereotypical comments about metal fans. I'm not satanic and I've never drank anyone's blood. I also don't have long messy hair, I'm not covered in tattoos and unsightly piercings and I don't punctuate every single sentence with the word "dude". Is there any other stupid stereotype that I've neglected to mention? If there is I'm sure you'll take great pleasure in pointing it out. :rolleyes:

well, i wish we would, but im afraid the topic has ran out :smoke:
Is that your call to make now? You decide when there's nothing more to say on a subject? Maybe the reason people stopped posting on this thread is because you started baiting me and turned it into a stupid argument.
You're just trying to piss me off and I'm playing into your hands. No more.
Bored now.

[coolasfcuk]

You arent getting the point of the conversation ...
You don't need to worry about me. I'm not the type who goes around shooting guitarists.
I thought he shot other people as well.
Nathan Gale wasn't an "obsessive fan" of Dimebag Darrell - the general consensus is that Gale shot Dime because he blamed him for the break-up of Pantera.
And I was fucking upset when Dimebag was killed.
Wow, once again, Dimebag wasnt the only one killed. It is horrible he was, but why concentrate only on his death when the other non-famous people's death are just as tragical.
Music means a lot to me and I get the impression that you're taking the piss out of me for it.
Don't.
No piss, just trying to have a broad conversation on lots of general subjects with you, thats all.

Not only are you twisting everything I say, you're also making broad generalisations and stereotypical comments about metal fans. I'm not satanic and I've never drank anyone's blood. I also don't have long messy hair, I'm not covered in tattoos and unsightly piercings and I don't punctuate every single sentence with the word "dude". Is there any other stupid stereotype that I've neglected to mention? If there is I'm sure you'll take great pleasure in pointing it out.
Well, i did the stereotypical comment on purpose ;) Im not the only one that makes generalizations like that one of my previous post, think about that .... and dont forget, you are the one who made the biggest generalization when giving me description of what you think I think a stereotypical metal fan is ...

Is that your call to make now? You decide when there's nothing more to say on a subject? Maybe the reason people stopped posting on this thread is because you started baiting me and turned it into a stupid argument.
You're just trying to piss me off and I'm playing into your hands. No more.
Bored now.
All I tried to do is make us think a little through a debate, why do you view it as a fight? :confused: If people wanted to say something about Wal-Mart they would ...

eh, dont you worry, Im done discussing with you, you obviously dont wanna, so i wont torture you anymore. Keep on living :coctail:

[spyretto]

ahaha, Pantera was important , cause they and Helmet kinda kicked off the lousy nu metal scene - or at least they were the "founding fathers". Although both were good, it went downhill from there with lousy "metal" bands devoid of any melody whatsoever, 15 year-old confused kids would listen to. Now their ex-guitarist has been killed, well, he hadn't been famous at the time, at least. He was a good guitarist ( lemme play "Cemetery Gates" as a tribute to him then, and I'll enjoy it with a nice wine...cheers :done: )

I don't want to be associated with the new(?!) metal of that kind cause it pretty much sucks ( like Slipknot, yuk!! ) Even death metal was better in the 90's. A point in case is that Rob Halford dude you mention. The heavy metal macho guy of the 80s came out to be gay ( wtf? is he George Michael in disguise? :p ). If Tatu came up 15 years ago he would find the courage to come out of his closet a long earlier. :p

Nah, heavy metal is PURE SHIT. Nevertheless, I'm a big fan of the broader scene of the "hard-rock music" as it started in the 70s, as I experienced it in the 80s and 90s -some heavy metal was good as well - as it seemed to become irrelavant in the late 90s and early 00s, and as it was rekindled recently. Evanescence is NOT metal, heavy metal is DEAD ( dead, dead, dead )

Long live rock and roll!!

( oh yeah, sorry it was the stickers we were talking about? blimey! :bum: )

[coolasfcuk]

I don't want to be associated with the new(?!) metal of that kind cause it pretty much sucks ...
Evanescence is NOT metal, heavy metal is DEAD ( dead, dead, dead )
Psssssssst, :lol: I tried mentioning that, but, its best you dont say it to disappoint the kiddies ;)

Nah, heavy metal is PURE SHIT.
:lol: but watch out, you got another thing coming!


p.s. if you watch VH1, they will tell you that warrant, def leppard, and bon jovi were real heavy metal! :lol:

[ypsidan04]

No one is telling Amy Lee to water down her music (which by the way i find shitty anyway and cant see who would want to waste their money on it).

You disapppoint me. :nunu:


just kidding about the smilie. But that is sad to see from you. :(
She didn't sue HMV for selling me a stupid cassette tape

That's cause she's not American! ;)


judging on what I've seen, are some of the nicest people one could ever hope to encounter.

:flag: :yes:
Not only are you twisting everything I say, you're also making broad generalisations and stereotypical comments about metal fans. I'm not satanic and I've never drank anyone's blood. I also don't have long messy hair, I'm not covered in tattoos and unsightly piercings and I don't punctuate every single sentence with the word "dude". Is there any other stupid stereotype that I've neglected to mention? If there is I'm sure you'll take great pleasure in pointing it out. :rolleyes:

Have I ever mentioned you're one of my favorite members here? I totally agree.
ahaha, Pantera was important , cause they and Helmet kinda kicked off the lousy nu metal scene - or at least they were the "founding fathers".

Nah, if you ask me it was Nirvana, Rage Against the Machine, and Stone Temple Pilots.


Evanescence is NOT metal

You're right, but it's totally not important.

[Mossopp]

Thanks Dan. It's good to see at least one person sticking up for me here! :done:

[coolasfcuk]

Nah, if you ask me it was Nirvana....
metal? :dead:

[ypsidan04]

metal? :dead:

If Nirvana hasn't influenced modern nu-metal I don't know who has.

[spyretto]

If Nirvana hasn't influenced modern nu-metal I don't know who has.

That's why I always thought Nirvana sucked at the time - although now I see the guy was a pretty good songwriter. Pretty good songwriter means no nu metal ;)
Well, ok, you could say Nirvana, although Nirvana had more melodic elements and became big more or less at the same time that Pantera did. But Pantera's Vulgar Display of Power is an album that had a lot more nu metal pre-elements than Nirvana, imo. Listen to songs like Walk, This Love and you'll know what I mean.
Not to mention that Nirvana are not considered "metal" so you can say they influenced nu metal in a broader sense - in a similar way that the Beatles or the Kinks influenced metal for example ;)

Stone Temple Pilots? They had melody, though...
Rage Against The Machine? hmm, maybe, but they also influenced bands like Linkin Park :p
I think it's all a great melting pot where all the elements of crapiness are put together. And now they mix "howling" vocals with nu metal type of music; then mix some rapping as well and it all comes together.

I'd rather listen to the whole collection of PWL albums back to back than that ;)

[Mossopp]

For someone who hates rock and metal so much you seem to consider yourself a pretty good authority on the subject. :rolleyes:

[ypsidan04]

Pretty good songwriter means no nu metal ;)

You dont know what you're talking about.

[spyretto]

You dont know what you're talking about.

Nu metal music really stunk. Even the names are ridiculous. Papa Roach? :p Limp Bizkit ( Biscuits? ) Korn are surely corny, Deftones must have really been into too much drugs, Linking Park, Lostprophets, Incubus etc, is what you'd call "wuss-metal", or "I can't write a decent melody so I'll rap metal" ( metal? :p )
System of A Down were good but I think their style is now passe and they're quite a caricature of themselves, the nu metal Metallica suck arse, P.O.D. are for 10 year olds, and Nickelback - is that nu metal or AOR "metal"? don't get me started on that.
Slipknot must have been some disturbed weak individuals with bad memories from their childhood -maybe an uncaring mother? - and Disturbed - ahahahaha, jeeez, what a joke - and I really preferred Pantera.

But about 90% of what is associated with the word "metal" today, stinks too. So what is the new thing now, now that nu metal should be considered dead and buried? Will we ever experience some good heavy music ever again?

For someone who hates rock and metal so much you seem to consider yourself a pretty good authority on the subject. :rolleyes:

In fact I do know my 80s and 90s metal better than you do.
And who said I hate rock and metal? All i said is that todays metal stinks as does the rest of the music industry. It's like Billy Idol once said "I love heavy music but those groups mean absolutely nothing to me". They're just fake. So yes, metal and rock all the way, but I'm in for the music not for some macho-image BS when in fact they can't even play.

I think i made myself quite clear on this subject before ;)

[Mossopp]

Nu metal music really stunk. Even the names are ridiculous. Papa Roach? Limp Bizkit ( Biscuits? ) Korn are surely corny, Deftones must have really been into too much drugs, Linking Park, Lostprophets, Incubus etc, is what you'd call "wuss-metal", or "I can't write a decent melody so I'll rap metal" ( metal? )
Sorry, I must be confused. I didn’t realise that bands with odd names were automatically deemed “wuss-metal” and therefore were not worthy of our attention. Are we discussing the music or the monikers? Led Zepplin was a pretty fucking stupid name. So was Pink Floyd. Were those bands shit too?
And if you insist on judging a book by it’s cover - or a band by it’s name - then at least get their names right. It’s Linkin Park, without the ‘g’.

System of A Down were good but I think their style is now passe and they're quite a caricature of themselves, the nu metal Metallica suck arse, P.O.D. are for 10 year olds, and Nickelback - is that nu metal or AOR "metal"? don't get me started on that.
Don’t worry, I wouldn’t dream of getting you started on that. I’m not really in the mood to listen to even more of your uninformed opinions. However there are several points made in your paragraph that I must pick up on -

1. System Of A Down, while they’ve never been to my taste, have always been innovative and different. In no way are they a “caricature” of anything. Could you please elaborate on that statement without using their “wuss” name as a reason to write them off completely?

2. P.O.D. are not “for 10 years olds”. Again, I’d like to know where you get this opinion from. I’ve never met anyone under the age of 20 who even knows who P.O.D. are. The fact that they were never plastered all over the front cover of Kerrang! like Linkin Park and Slipknot were back in the nu-metal heyday made sure of that!

3. The term “nu metal Metallica” is so stupid I don’t even know where to start! Metallica’s sound has evolved a lot over their career and it has had to as they’ve been in this business for over 20 years! However, in those 20 years Metallica have never even come close to being a “nu metal” band. Do Metallica have a DJ? Do they have scratching in their tracks? Do they rap? Have they ever collaborated with Jay-Z? Do they wear baggy pants? The answer to all of those questions is a resounding “no”, so can you please tell me what you meant by “nu metal Metallica”? Sorry to resort to clichéd sterotypes of the nu metal genre and its fans but that’s what you (and certain others) have been doing for the past 2 pages so I might as well join you! :mad:

Slipknot must have been some disturbed weak individuals with bad memories from their childhood -maybe an uncaring mother? - and Disturbed - ahahahaha, jeeez, what a joke - and I really preferred Pantera.

Like it or not, Slipknot were the first of their kind. What is it you have against them - their name or their masks? Or do you dislike them because you think they’re for 10 year olds too? Maybe you see the masks as a cheap gimmick, fair enough. But how is that any different to the outlandish stage shows and clothing of, say, Alice Cooper or Ozzy back in the day? Are you going to start ripping those guys to shreds too? See, I think your problem is that you’re concentrating on arbitrary factors like the name or the clothes - what about the music? I thought that’s what this discussion was about.
I don’t really know what comment to make on your view of Disturbed because “ahahahaha, jeeez” isn’t exactly constructive criticism. :rolleyes:
Why do you feel like you must always reiterate the fact that you liked Pantera? Are you trying to score metal brownie points by claiming to like a band who, in light of recent events, no one would dare criticise anyway? Pantera’s sound is closer to the “nu-metal” of today than any other 90’s band mentioned so far, so why are they so sacred to you? And what the hell kind of name is ‘Pantera’? Shouldn’t you dismiss them on those grounds any way?
If what you’re really looking for is someone to blame for the abomination you call ‘nu-metal’ then the people you’re looking for are Aerosmith. I think you’ll find ‘Walk This Way’ by Run DMC and Aerosmith was the very first rock/rap crossover and that dates all the way back to the golden days of 1986. Still think the 1980’s were so great?

But about 90% of what is associated with the word "metal" today, stinks too. So what is the new thing now, now that nu metal should be considered dead and buried? Will we ever experience some good heavy music ever again?
So why don’t you just go’n lock yourself in your room and listen to Black Sabbath for the rest of your life? Personally I think today’s rock scene is pretty damn good. Sure there’s a lot of shit out there but if you’d care to look past what MTV2 is currently shoving down your throat you’d see that there’s some real talent out there too!
The fact is that ‘rock’ is a massive genre and nu-metal, punk, grunge, metal, hardcore, emo…… they are all sub-genre’s. Rock music today is not just cut and dry. I’ve got last month’s issue of Metal Hammer in front of me right now. On the cover is Phil Anselmo (metal) and Eighteen Visions (metalcore), inside are interviews with The Used (screamo), Mad Capsule Markets (cyber-punk) and Hatebreed (hardcore) and album reviews of everyone from Arch Enemy to Silver Sun. Your view of rock music is far too narrow and it’s forcing you to write off a hell of a lot of good bands without even giving them a chance.

In fact I do know my 80s and 90s metal better than you do.
Oh, that a fact? You don’t know how much or how little I know about 80’s and 90’s metal. Just because you don’t agree with my opinion on it doesn’t mean I don’t know as much as you.

And who said I hate rock and metal? All i said is that todays metal stinks as does the rest of the music industry. It's like Billy Idol once said "I love heavy music but those groups mean absolutely nothing to me". They're just fake. So yes, metal and rock all the way, but I'm in for the music not for some macho-image BS when in fact they can't even play.
So all metal these days is “macho BS”? Macho posturing has been an unfortunate by-product of rock/metal ever since it began! It existed in the 80’s and 90’s too, or are you conveniently forgetting that in case it taints your memories of the good old days?
And as for the accusation that bands today don’t know how to play………I’m just speechless at that! When was the last time you went to a gig? I’ve been to seven gigs this year and I wasn’t disappointed by a single one of them! Even The Bloodhound Gang (I don’t suppose they’re good enough for your superior tastes either) surprised me with their musicianship!

I can see that we are going to have to ‘agree to disagree’ on this otherwise this debate could go on forever. I just don’t believe that there’s not one current band that you like right now. You’re being too narrow-minded about the whole thing. I suppose you’re one of those people still holding their breath for ‘Chinese Democracy’. Let it go. Stop being a music snob and wake up to some of the simply phenomenal bands and albums out there today!

[spyretto]

Yeah, Pink Floyd is a weird name but it sounds good, Papa Roach and Limp Bizkit don't even sound good. What is there to discuss in the music? Somebody who knows the very basics of the rhythm guitar can string together a better riff than those guys did in their whole "career".
And I did write "Linkin" above, so "Linking" "Linkin" what's the difference, it's supermarket music. And it still sounds wussey in the supermarket environment. Tatu sounded heavier in the supermarket ;)
I think the term "nu metal" is quite a broad term innit? Not all the bands "rap". So yeah the "new" Metallica sound very nu metal to me; cause they try that monotonous, repeated, devoid of any melody - rattle, obviously cause 1) they can't do better 2) they think they can revive their fainting career like that appealing to 13 year olds. How can you even go to compare allbeit 20-year old, overplayed. material like "Lightining" and "Puppets" with that rubbish? Unless banging on tins can be considered metal, then I suppose you're right.
Slipknot were the first in what? Maybe I can get a band together, wear those masks from Scream, and hey presto! it'll be so cool too. The makeup of Kiss is better anyway, not to mention they can put 2 good songs together.
How are they different to the stuff Alice Cooper and Ozzy were doing? Alice was innovative 30 years ago in ways Slipknot can't even imagine. How are Slipknot innovative, cause they wear those stupid masks from "Texas Chainshaw Massacre" and go around mags quoting "we're the best thing since sliced bread baby"?. Alice had the Beatles as his influences. Slipknot have Pantera, Nirvana and Fear Factory :bum: as their main influences. Which is a joke in the first place.
About the image, well, you may be right, but remember that in the 80s that image was considered cool and fashionable, whether it was macho, girly, wussey or whatever, never mind if it was bad taste, everybody looked bad back then, it went along with the times. Now it's not a big deal, even the general store owner from my neighborhood can cover his body with fake tattoos, use fake tan, wear a few earrings and a few piercings and pose around as a metalhead. It's still gonna be FAKE.
Some honest rock 'n' roll music would do instead. You don't have to be a bloody weirdo to like metal.

Look at the "nu metal" bands themselves. I bet 99% of them will disappear into oblivion - if not already - and nobody will remember of them as anything good. There didn't have to be any big event, like a suicide that'd grip the rock music scene, or something. It just burst like a big balloon.

And to quote from wikipedia.com on the term "nu metal":

"The stage acts and video clips of some of the more commercially successful of these groups owe much to some of metal's more pompous traditions, without much of the menace that such stylings used to represent. This fact, combined with the unoriginality and commercialization of nu-metal music, means that the style is often derided by other metal fans.

By the late 1990s, there was, from some music fans, a significant backlash against nu metal, charging that many associated perfomers were uninspired or derivative. This caused some bands such as the Deftones, who were among the first of the genre, to break free and distance themselves from the term."

So you don't have to like nu metal to be a rock or metal fan. I do like some new bands. And who cares about "Chinese Democracy" anyway, the fact of the matter remains that even a minor hair rock band from the early 90s without a single hit, made better music than those nu metal chaps. And that's a shame coz the music fan needs good new stuff can't continue to dwell in the old. You won't make me change my mind whatever you say, cause I can trust my own ears. I'm saddened at the fact that metal music has sunk so low, record companies serve you those angst-ridden, musically incompetent phonies, who all sound alike, and you even seem to worship them! I guess it's Mr Cobain to blame. He couldn't handle fame so he killed himself. He also screwed up metal music badly and now it'll take ages to recover :bum:

P.S. Oh and please, you don't have to make fun of my English and my spelling a) can't go back and check my spelling all the time b) you know very well English is not my first language.

Peace and have a wicked new year. It may be the year metal music come back from the dead :)


and btw, how's Anselmo doing? I bet he's pretty shook up now; he better go back and re-evaluate his life, try to make some good, honest rock music and live until he's ninety :)

a little update to my rant: here's instructions on how to form your own nu metal band ( in case you can revive the dumb "metal" phenomenon ) :lol:

http://www.entertainment.inuk.com/music/numetalguide.html

this will start the nu metal revival, kiddo! (http://www.newprojectonline.com/downloads/Princesssample.mp3)

[spyretto]

Good laugh :p

I'd like to add some rules myself.

1) Pantera (http://www.kanged.com/pantera/ArtworkPages/Pantera/images/panteranightB-small2.jpg) are the pro-creators of "metal". How long ago was it, surely it must have been in the 70s...
2) Sepultura's Roots was the first metal album
3) Metallica's Reload kicks ass. It was also "older" Metallica.
4) Slipknot is the most heavy, intense, and original metal band ever existed.
5) Korn are the godfathers of metal.
6) Limp Bizkit are not cool anymore cause the critics said so but all the bands who copy them are
7) Hair rock was so gay, bands like Extreme, White Lion, Bon Jovi and Poison were considered the metal of that era.
8) Drowning Pool are legendary
9) Hatebreed are so scary and real
10) Linkin Park have so deep lyrics and music.
11) Only bands from the ancient times were Black Sabbath, Pantera, Rage Against The Machine and Nirvana. Black Sabbath existed before we were born but they're so cool coz Marylin Manson says so, not to mention Ozzfest. The rest are the pioneers of metal, especially Kurt Cobain and RATM who put the "M" in metal. That's all we need to know anyway :rolleyes:


cheers :coctail:

[ypsidan04]

2. P.O.D. are not “for 10 years olds”. Again, I’d like to know where you get this opinion from. I’ve never met anyone under the age of 20 who even knows who P.O.D. are.

Gotcha there. I'm not even 19 yet, and I've known about them for at least a year, maybe two. ;) I really like them - dont have a CD, but will soon enough.
1. System Of A Down, while they’ve never been to my taste, have always been innovative and different.

While they were never to my taste up until a couple months ago - now they're one of my favorites - theyv'e always been innovative and different: "Not long ago, accepted sonic belief held that rock music, certainly hard rock music, had been stretched, manipulated, and tinkered with to its logical end. With no new forms looming, the genre would slip into malaise and the kids would look elsewhere for an outlet. Enter Los Angeles quartet System Of A Down, who have revived and revitalized heavy music with their manic brand of post-everything hardcore. Millions of records on, they charge into the new century as living proof that for those brave enough to snub convention, greatness follows." That's from their record label. Sounds innovative to me.
Metallica have never even come close to being a “nu metal” band. Do Metallica have a DJ? Do they have scratching in their tracks? Do they rap? Have they ever collaborated with Jay-Z?

Thankfully, there are more nu-metal bands than just Linkin Park. ;) Thankfully, cause LP would get boring after awhile.
But how is that any different to the outlandish stage shows and clothing of, say, Alice Cooper or Ozzy back in the day?

You forgot the pioneers: KISS.
simply phenomenal bands and albums out there today!

Start with Audioslave and Velvet Revolver. That way you can get your classic sound from a contemporary band.
Papa Roach and Limp Bizkit

Please dont judge the whole genre on probably the worst two bands in the genre. :rolleyes:
And it still sounds wussey in the supermarket environment. Tatu sounded heavier in the supermarket

Why don't you open your ears and mind and quit making a fool out of yourself? Cause that's a pretty foolish statement from where I'm coming from. Take note: "A closed mind is like a closed book; just a block of wood." -Chinese proverb
You don't have to be a bloody weirdo to like metal.

Well, you got that right.
this will start the nu metal revival, kiddo! (http://www.newprojectonline.com/downloads/Princesssample.mp3)

He can kiss my ass. And why dont you go here (http://www.youhavebadtasteinmusic.com/), worship him till you're blue in the face, and then you can get it all outta your system, so we don't have to deal with anymore of your thoughtless insulting.
1) You must cover an 1980s novelty song for your debut release. This is not an option

Disturbed, Korn, and Marilyn Manson do not speak for everybody.
3) Recruit a female bassist. This will lead to initial magazine exposure before the critics notice you can't actually play. By this time you will have built up a hardcore following of teenage boys.

Yeah, I wish. I know one female bassist who has ever been in any well known rock band: Melissa Auf Der Maur. And the Smashing Pumpkins is hardly nu-metal. Name me a lot more than that, and I'll take this "tip" at face value.
A whole remix album would be perfect! Incorporate a trendy DJ member into the band for that 21st Century feel.

Again, Linkin Park does not speak for everyone.
Claim to be "down" with your fans. Express your thoughts on topics you have no clue about such as the Presidential elections and rage how much Britney Spears sucks.

It seems like the only people who care about elections are rappers, Zack de la Rocha, and Eddie Vedder, and the latter two are currently AWOL. Another BS "tip". :rolleyes:
Recruit lots of band members. About eight or nine is about right. Having three members is so passe nowadays.

It just doesn't end. Slipknot doesn't speak for everyone, and 3 members is just fine for Chevelle and Smile Empty Soul, off the top of my head.
Ross Robinson

Who? Rick Rubin or Andy Wallace would be much better for this one. I've had more than enough of that abomination of a website.

http://launch.yahoo.com/musicvideos/player/default.asp?videoID=2156537 (Maybe my favorite current nu-metal song.)

[spyretto]

Gotcha there. I'm not even 19 yet, and I've known about them for at least a year, maybe two. ;) I really like them - dont have a CD, but will soon enough.

They're not too bad but their video Alive had skaters and skater kids would worship it, i presume. They're usually young boys of that age, 13-15. Not that I know the band well, though to reach a definite conclusion. That's why I didn't say that they suck ;)

While they were never to my taste up until a couple months ago - now they're one of my favorites

I lied, I like SOAD; I loved Toxicity and liked their "b'sides" material as well. but it just suited
my rant. Did SOAD start as a nu metal band - i.e as part of the trend? anyway, SOAD are the big exception. You can see it in their faces that these guys have a lot to offer.

Thankfully, there are more nu-metal bands than just Linkin Park. ;) Thankfully, cause LP would get boring after awhile.

Too much repetition. As for Metallica, the absence of solos, repetition, and Hetfield seems like rapping a bit could classify it as a lame attempt to emulate nu metal ( see: all Within my Hands )

You forgot the pioneers: KISS.

Don't even have to go there.


Start with Audioslave and Velvet Revolver. That way you can get your classic sound from a contemporary band.

I didn't like VR's single, and I haven't heard the album. Audioslave are good but Soundgarden WERE better. Lets wait for the new material from Audioslave to see what they can come up with. I expect better.

Please dont judge the whole genre on probably the worst two bands in the genre. :rolleyes:

The genre has bands who sound very much alike and that's not a good thing. It's music written almost mechanically and I don't find that genuine. There's no real progression with nu metal. Bands sound the same as they did when they started cause they have nothing new to offer.


Why don't you open your ears and mind and quit making a fool out of yourself? Cause that's a pretty foolish statement from where I'm coming from. Take note: "A closed mind is like a closed book; just a block of wood." -Chinese proverb

I did open my ears but didn't like what I heard. Open my mind, how? That stuff is monotonous and repetitive.


Disturbed, Korn, and Marilyn Manson do not speak for everybody.

Then who does? you have dismissed Korn, Limp bizkit, Disturbed, Manson, Papa Roach, Linkin Park...who else is there?


Yeah, I wish. I know one female bassist who has ever been in any well known rock band: Melissa Auf Der Maur. And the Smashing Pumpkins is hardly nu-metal. Name me a lot more than that, and I'll take this "tip" at face value.

Yeah Auf Der Maur is kinda good but it's not nu metal. Melissa was hired to do one ( or two ) SP albums. she wasn't established with them, but with Hole.
Yeah Coal Chamber have female member. I'm sure there's more. I also mentioned Kittie.


Again, Linkin Park does not speak for everyone.

Again, tell me about the bands you have in mind.


It just doesn't end. Slipknot doesn't speak for everyone, and 3 members is just fine for Chevelle and Smile Empty Soul, off the top of my head.

Well, you gotta see it in a joking mood. Of course they had Slipknot in mind when they wrote about that. I've got one Chevelle album, someone gave it to me and I listened to it once....wasn't impressed. I might give it another try though


Who? Rick Rubin or Andy Wallace would be much better for this one. I've had more than enough of that abomination of a website.

Yeah both of them have been around for a while and they're legendary producers. But they do go where the money is eg. Rubin to Slipknot. The website is a joke, but it makes some good points, you gotta agree. If Duality and Wait And Bleed are supposed to be the best Slipknot songs, then I'm sorry, that's poor. Though the masks were promising.
and common, Manson sucks. All he can come up with is 80s covers these days.

[ypsidan04]

Audioslave are good but Soundgarden WERE better.

Please! Not from my point of view. The better part of Soundgarden was Cornell, and the better part of Rage was the band. Unfortunately though, the first Audioslave CD doesn't bear a lot of resemblance to The Battle Of Los Angeles from Rage that I just got, and there's only a 3 year difference. I mean there's some, like on "Gasoline" and "Light My Way", but other than that it's pretty different. Morello and crew sound real good with Cornell but not as good as they did back in the 90s.

Lets wait for the new material from Audioslave to see what they can come up with. I expect better

I can't wait.
I didn't like VR's single, and I haven't heard the album.

Well what are ya waitin for? It sold a quarter of a million copies in just the first week, and has sold over a million to date.

Music videos (http://launch.yahoo.com/ar-308718-videos--Velvet-Revolver)
Then who does? you have dismissed Korn, Limp bizkit, Disturbed, Manson, Papa Roach, Linkin Park...who else is there?

No no no. The point is he makes these bogus generalizations just because 1 or 2 or 3 bands happen to fit said generalization. The dozens of bands who dont fit it be damned. :rolleyes:

Yeah Auf Der Maur is kinda good but it's not nu metal. Melissa was hired to do one ( or two ) SP albums. she wasn't established with them, but with Hole.

I know that quite well.

Yeah Coal Chamber have female member. I'm sure there's more. I also mentioned Kittie.

Coal Chamber has vocals that arent to my taste.

Kittie: Holy crap, who knew chicks could rock that hard! (never heard em before now). :D Thanks for mentioning them. I got a new band on my shopping list! ;) So how many of em are gay? :laugh:

[spyretto]

Please! Not from my point of view. The better part of Soundgarden was Cornell, and the better part of Rage was the band. Unfortunately though, the first Audioslave CD doesn't bear a lot of resemblance to The Battle Of Los Angeles from Rage that I just got, and there's only a 3 year difference. I mean there's some, like on "Gasoline" and "Light My Way", but other than that it's pretty different. Morello and crew sound real good with Cornell but not as good as they did back in the 90s.

From my point of view, they were. Soundgarden made progress as a band, from Louder Than Love to Badmotorfinger, from Badmotorfinger to Superunknown, from Superuknown to Down On The Upside. They were part of the big three from Seattle, with Pearl Jam and Alice In Chains. ( I don't count Nirvana and grundge )
The same cannot be said about RATM though. Their first album was great but then they were struck into a repetitive cycle. It's a shame that nowadays RATM get more credit than Soundgarden, though Soundgarden may have sold more albums. If you are a RATM fan and want to hear the same thing over and over that's fine. That's not progression though. Give Me Soundgarden anytime and I give you RATM.
( Show Me How To Live also has the trademark RATM guitars )


Well what are ya waitin for? It sold a quarter of a million copies in just the first week, and has sold over a million to date.

I'll give it a try, I hope I'm not disappointed. It's not nu metal btw, it's hard rock with old Guns n Roses/Stone Temple Pilots members, so it's basically old generation, lol. Where is the new?

No no no. The point is he makes these bogus generalizations just because 1 or 2 or 3 bands happen to fit said generalization. The dozens of bands who dont fit it be damned. :rolleyes:

Even as a joke they make valid points. They either rap or try some Fear Factory-esque (sic) alternate vocals, once heavy, once "wussey" - see Killwitch Engage, the "new" Annihilator etc. and, of course, Slipknot

[ypsidan04]

You mentioned Duality. That's a good song and I don't even like Slipknot. :p It's not full of their raging vocals.
Soundgarden made progress as a band, from Louder Than Love to Badmotorfinger, from Badmotorfinger to Superunknown, from Superuknown to Down On The Upside. They were part of the big three from Seattle, with Pearl Jam and Alice In Chains. ( I don't count Nirvana and grundge )
The same cannot be said about RATM though. Their first album was great but then they were struck into a repetitive cycle.

Well you're right. And I like Soundgarden too. But I prefer Rage. You have it your way. Let me put it this way though: Is RATM unique? You better damn well believe it. Is Soundgarden unique? Eh...not really.

[spyretto]

You mentioned Duality. That's a good song and I don't even like Slipknot. :p It's not full of their raging vocals.


Well you're right. And I like Soundgarden too. But I prefer Rage. You have it your way.

it's just taste at the end of the day. First album by RATM was excellent though.

[ypsidan04]

We're like chatting in real time so you keep replying before I'm fully done with my posts. Here's what you missed.

Kittie: Holy crap, who knew chicks could rock that hard! (never heard em before now). :D Thanks for mentioning them. I got a new band on my shopping list! ;) So is the lead singer (or anyone else for that matter) as gay as they look? :laugh:

Let me put it this way though: Is RATM unique? You better damn well believe it. Is Soundgarden unique? Eh...not really. I mean the band, not Cornell.

[spyretto]

haha, Kittie ;) Yeah they do rock hard but there's nothing underneath. L7 were a lot lot better and Babes In Toyland - well, lets just say Kittie were kinda influenced by them.

Why aren't Soundgarden unique? Who did they sound like? and don't tell me Black Sabbath :p
Yeah RATM were a novelty, no doubt about it. But so were so many other bands.

[Mossopp]

Can I just ask why you say that Kittie were influenced by Babes In Toyland and L7? L7 were grunge, Kittie are a rock band - there are no similarities other than the fact they're all female.

I'm not getting into another debate. I just don't see the connection between those bands at all.

[spyretto]

I didn't say they were influenced by L7, just BIT, in terms of intensity. I don't know what the connection in sound between all those "grunge" labelled bands are. ok, BIT, Mudhoney, Nirvana, first Foo Fighters, Hole, Helmet, Smashing Pumpkins had similar "grungey" influences but Pearl Jam grunge? L7 grunge? Pixies grunge? :rolleyes: The genre included bands who had no similarities at all.

[Mossopp]

Correct me if I'm wrong (I want Dan's opnion on this) but Foo Fighters, Smashing Pumpkins and The Pixies are not grunge. With the exception of the Pumpkins none of them have any "grungey" influences in their sound either. Just cos Dave Grohl was in arguably the most influential grunge act of all time doesn't mean that Foo Fighters automatically have to have a grunge element to their music.
The Pixies definately aren't "grunge" because they were around before that genre was even invented! By Cobain's own admission if it weren't for The Pixies, Nirvana would never have existed! The Pixies were, you could say, the forefathers of grunge (although I don't particularly favour that term myself).
How you can say that Pearl Jam and L7 aren't grunge is a mystery to me. As far as I am concerned both those bands are perfect examples of the genre!

And, in regard to your nu-metal opinion (yes, that old chestnut :rolleyes: )
There's no real progression with nu metal. Bands sound the same as they did when they started cause they have nothing new to offer.
Listen to the new Papa Roach album and see if you still think that way! It's a perfect example of a previously stereotyped band really breaking out of their pigeonhole.
I think the whole notion of critising a genre for "sounding the same" is a redundant one. A genre is, by definition, a term used to describe a collection of things (be it bands, movies, books) that share similar characteristics. If all bands were so radically different to each other then there would be no need for genres at all. Of course, that is never going to happen.

[spyretto]

The first Foo fighters album was VERY grungey, as far as the guitar play and drumming determined that sound. Then - to their credit - they changed their sound and became... Foo Fighters. The Smashing Pumpkins were such a diverse band that saying they were grunge wouldn't do them justice.
What is grunge anyway? To me it was nothing more than a counter-movement to traditional hard rock/heavy metal, with bands that had no or little musical similarities. Was it Seattle? L7 didn't even start from Seattle - but Queensryche did. Are they supposed to be grunge? I don't think so :p
So, without an inkling of sounding controversial, could you please give me a definition of grunge, and then we can work it out and see how L7 and Pearl Jam fit into that category - I suppose in that case they sound similar as well? :rolleyes:
Yeah, I presume Papa Roach did away with the rapping parts didn't they? They did sound - as well as Kittie - very nu metal to me. Can you suggest a couple of songs by Papa Roach to check them out? I'm not saying that it's impossible that something better can come out of that scene.

If nu metal is rock, then how can grunge not be rock? - that goes to your comment about Kittie and L7, BIT.

And the bottomline of my comment is that great bands are above such classifications and labels. A weak band may be subject to a classification because they copy somebody else. That goes to nu metal - I'm afraid - cause it can be "pigeonholed" very easily.
And in the danger of sounding controversial again, to me, the best heavy rock music is essentially pop music in its structure. ( there are some exceptions, though i.e. grindcore )

So everything started from pop, and only the intensity changes. See Black Sabbath's Paranoid for example, that is a collection of great pop tunes if anything else :p

About your last comment, I think genres - especially when it comes down to subdivisions of subdivisions - is something that the music industry invented to grossely generalize things to their benefit - and when they couldn't fit it properly , they "invented" even more genres. Ever wondered why bands don't like to be called "heavy metal" and prefer the term "rock" or "rock 'n' roll"?
So you can call everything "rock" and enjoy the music if it does it for you, or try to categorise them into all sort of different subdivisions and then moan when a band don't fit in that category anymore, call them "sellouts" and posers.( not talking about you, especially )
(classic example: Metallica who, after inventing "thrash metal" went to do other things and allegedly "sold out" :lol:
I, for myself, prefer to enjoy the music instead :)

[Mossopp]

What is grunge anyway? To me it was nothing more than a counter-movement to traditional hard rock/heavy metal, with bands that had no or little musical similarities. Was it Seattle? L7 didn't even start from Seattle - but Queensryche did. Are they supposed to be grunge? I don't think so
So you’re telling me that you can hear no similarities whatsoever between Pearl Jam, Soundgarden and L7? Even Alice In Chains - who were a lot heavier - had a strong, noticeable grunge element to their sound.
And no - grunge bands don’t need to come from Seattle. The movement started there but to say that a band has to come from a certain city in order to qualify for inclusion in the genre is just laughable! Metallica are from Seattle (as I’m sure you are aware) but they aren’t, weren’t and never will be grunge.
Grunge is still alive and kicking these days. Take Seether for example - you only need to listen to the first few tracks on their debut album to know how indebted they are to Kurt Cobain. Shaun Morgan sounds eerily like Kurt on some songs. I saw Seether play ‘Drain You’ live in Glasgow and if I closed my eyes I could almost believe it was Kurt who was singing on the stage!
And where do Seether come from? Seattle? No. The west coast of America? No. They're from South Africa! Hardly a hotspot for grunge bands, even back in the 90's! :laugh:
Yeah, I presume Papa Roach did away with the rapping parts didn't they? They did sound - as well as Kittie - very nu metal to me. Can you suggest a couple of songs by Papa Roach to check them out? I'm not saying that it's impossible that something better can come out of that scene.
For a decent example of Papa Roach’s new sound check out ‘Scars’, ‘Take Me’ or ‘Be Free’. In fact, pretty much anything from the last album ‘Getting Away With Murder’ (with the possible exception of the title track). They’ve got a much more “heavy rock” vibe now. Jacoby even sounds spookily like Steve Tyler on ‘Be Free’!
If nu metal is rock, then how can grunge not be rock? - that goes to your comment about Kittie and L7, BIT.
When did I say that grunge wasn't rock?? All I said was that the only similarities I saw between Kittie and L7 is that they’re both all-female.
Perhaps Kittie did have certain nu-metal elements on their first album (see ‘Brackish’ for example - which is fucking great song BTW) but that’s all but gone now. I think the reason Kittie are still tagged as nu metal by some people is because a) they’re young, b) they came out around the time of the nu-metal explosion and c) a lot of people got their first glimpse of Kittie as the support on Slipknot’s first UK tour.
And the bottomline of my comment is that great bands are above such classifications and labels. A weak band may be subject to a classification because they copy somebody else. That goes to nu metal - I'm afraid - cause it can be "pigeonholed" very easily.
Wait, let me make sure I’m understanding you. What you’re saying is that if a band is good then they cannot be pigeonholed into a genre. Being easily classifiable is a sign of being “weak”.
OK, so can you not classify Black Sabbath as heavy/stoner rock? Can you not classify Led Zepplin as prog? Can you not classify (early) Metallica as thrash metal? Are you saying that since we can label all these bands into a certain genre that they are “weak”? Wow, I’ve never heard anyone call Sabbath “weak” before. :none:
The “bottom line” is that if a band makes music then it’s gonna be pigeonholed - by music journos, by record stores, even by the fans. And if they can’t find a genre to put it in then they’ll just invent a new one. Yesterday I discovered that one of my favourite bands, My Chemical Romance, are “post-hardcore” (according to Metal Hammer anyway). And here was me assuming they were just a regular emo/punk band. :rolleyes:
And in the danger of sounding controversial again, to me, the best heavy rock music is essentially pop music in its structure. ( there are some exceptions, though i.e. grindcore )
Hmmmm, I don’t know how far I agree with you on that point. But I’ll let it go.
So everything started from pop, and only the intensity changes. See Black Sabbath's Paranoid for example, that is a collection of great pop tunes if anything else
“Weak” pop. Don’t forget the “weak” part.
And I really do disagree with this. Sabbath, pop? No way.
About your last comment, I think genres - especially when it comes down to subdivisions of subdivisions - is something that the music industry invented to grossely generalize things to their benefit - and when they couldn't fit it properly , they "invented" even more genres.
Genres are a necessary evil. It does get out of hand sometimes - see my previous “post-hardcore” example. All this “-core” business is starting to piss me off. “Metalcore” I could deal with and we’ve always had “hardcore”. But now we’ve got “emo-core”, “screamo-core”, “post-harcore-screamo”………. I mean, for fucks sake, gimme a break already!
However, a world without musical genres is just crazy. How would you know what to avoid? Like, you’re in HMV and Slayer and Slipknot are sitting in the CD racks right next to Simple Plan and SClub7 - think of what a fucked up world that would be to live in!!
Ever wondered why bands don't like to be called "heavy metal" and prefer the term "rock" or "rock 'n' roll"?
I’ve never heard of any band claiming to dislike being called “heavy metal”. Name one band who does - and gimme their exact quote.
I don’t like the term “rock n roll”. It sounds so out-dated - like something my parents would say.
So you can call everything "rock" and enjoy the music if it does it for you, or try to categorise them into all sort of different subdivisions and then moan when a band don't fit in that category anymore, call them "sellouts" and posers.( not talking about you, especially )
There’s nothing wrong with bands breaking out of their particular subdivision of the rock spectrum - hell, it worked for Metallica (for a while, anyway)! Sure they were labelled “sell-outs” but every band sells out eventually. When you were listening to Sabbath back in the day did you ever imagine that Ozzy would be part of something as crass and commercial as ‘The Osbournes’ on MT-fucking-V?!? Not likely!

It looks like this is back to a one-to-one conversation, just me and you spy. Where'd Dan get to?! :ithink:

[spyretto]

No I don't see similarities between Pearl Jam and Soundgarden - other than Temple of the Dog and Soundgarden's drummer joining Pearl Jam? There may be similarities between Alice In Chains and Stone Temple Pilots? But when I think of grunge I can only think of Nirvana - or bands who copied them eg. Puddle of Mudd.

It's all very subjective. For instance, freddie thinks that Audioslave sound almost identical to RATM, and their record is the natural progression of RATM's records. Dan regrets that Audioslave don't sound much as RATM ;)
Can we say Metallica sound like Slayer? Or Slayer sound like Megadeth or Megadeth like Exodus? Cause they too were associated with a specific genre but they're not quite similar are they? Perhaps they were similar when they started but their progression renders all those efforts to pigeonhole them quite laughable.
Metallica from Seattle? No I think they really started from L.A. and so did the rest of the thrash metal bands ( L.A. or S.F's Bay Area ).
I think "Getting Away With Murder" was slammed by some Papa Roach fans? So you're probably right about that, I'll check it out.
Post-hardcore? Then for L7 I'd say they can also fit the "post-punk" genre - if such genre exists, I'm thinking of Bad Religion, The Offspring, Green Day.
HMV only has a metal section. They don't have "nu-metal", "power-metal" "goth-metal" and the like. And many times I see some stuff there that make me wonder - eg. Lacuna Coil are labelled as metal cause they appeal to metal fans - without necessarily being metal themselves. It'd do them more justice if they were included in the rock section.
I think Sabbath are kind poppy ( see Paranoid ).
There are a lot of bands who didn't like to be called "heavy metal", but it'd go back a long way, and then you'd probably say "oh that's not metal anyway". In fact the only band who were using the term consistently - to the point of becoming a joke - were Manowar :p
But I guess new bands would rather say their music is metal if that made them sell more. :D

( are we not making the rest of lurkers here yawn from boredom? - I hope not :gigi: )

[Mossopp]

You're right - Metallica are from San Francisco. My bad. My brain is fried tonight but I shouldn't have let such a glaring error slip by. :bum:
And I don't care if the lurkers are "yawning from boredom" cos I'm enjoying this discussion. They are more than welcome to join in as long as they have something constructive to say.
But when I think of grunge I can only think of Nirvana
I think that's part of the problem. So many people think that grunge began and ended with Nirvana. As far as I'm concerned Alice In Chains were the best band to have emerged from that whole scene, but how many people remember them now? I didn't learn of Layne Stayley's death untill over a week after it had happened, yet I knew of Dimebag's murder in less than 24 hours. It puzzles me as to why this was the case. When Kurt commited suicide there were candle-lit vigils in his honour. Even Dimebag made the cover of Kerrang. Where was Layne's tributes? He was just as fucked up as Kurt, yet Kurt's made a hero while Layne is just forgotten (or so it seems to me, anyway).
Post-hardcore? Then for L7 I'd say they can also fit the "post-punk" genre - if such genre exists, I'm thinking of Bad Religion, The Offspring, Green Day.
There must be something in the water where you live, spy! You would categorise L7 alongside such pop-punk fluff as Offspring and Green Day??? :eek:
Post-punk, as a genre, certainly exists but none of those bands you mentioned belong in it. Bad Religion are punk. They've been around for ages - if it weren't for them Green Day and Offspring wouldn't be where they are. As for the latter 2 - they are pop-punk, pure and simple. Perhaps not to the same extreme as, say, Simple Plan, but they are pop-punk nonetheless.
Not that pop-punk is always a bad thing. There are some true horrors lurking under the 'pop-punk' banner but it's not all bad. It gets an underserved beating from a lot of people who have only seen Good Charlotte on 'Top Of The Pops' and assume every band is like them.
HMV only has a metal section. They don't have "nu-metal", "power-metal" "goth-metal" and the like. And many times I see some stuff there that make me wonder - eg. Lacuna Coil are labelled as metal cause they appeal to metal fans - without necessarily being metal themselves.
Yes, I know that HMV only has a metal section - the scenario in my previous post was only a hypothetical one. I do see your point though. As far as HMV is concerned "if it's been in Kerrang! it's metal". Hence the reason I've found the likes of Simple Plan and Good Charlotte lurking alongside oh-so-many death metal bands with indecipherable names when I browse the shelves. :rolleyes:

[spyretto]

Hey we kinda agree there. Alice In Chains were so much better than Nirvana could ever be ( those vocal harmonies between Staley and the guitarist were fantastic ) and I deem Bad Religion as a more important band than those other two - and with a longer career. Controversially enough, I also think Foo Fighters are better than Nirvana. (shock! horror! :p )
L7's Everglade & Fast And Frightening - among others - sound very punk to me but you could also say they're grunge or whatever, it don't matter. But I just checked on yahoo launch page and I quote:

Although often lumped in with the "Seattle Movement" of the early '90s (due to their sound, look, and attitude), the all-female punk band L7 hailed originally from Los Angeles.

So I don't think it's something in the water :p
And I'm afraid I'm one of those who think that grunge started and ended with Nirvana - though some elements of grunge remain until today. To me the grunge sound is defined by that guitar sound - hence it could be argued that song like "Zombie" by the Cranberries retain that grungy feeling. I might be wrong. Other than that I've no clue what grunge is. ( response to hair metal? )
Good Charlotte were lurking in the metal section? That is strange indeed since you'd expect them to be in the pop/rock section as they're immensely popular. I can't imagine a GC fan having to look in the metal section to find them ;) That metal section is a bit of a mess, actually. You can find anything in there, from punk to the Gathering :eek: and then what you expect to find there is rather in the pop/rock section. It's a conundrum as far as I'm concerned :)

edit: Although, to be fair, Nirvana with "In Utero" showed signs of maturity, and I think that was their best album.

oh, and also to add something else: I have a friend who only listens to different styles of punk rock. Examples: Misfits, Crass, Dead Kennedys, Descendents, Cyco Miko and some others which I can't remember. Well, guess what: L7 - especially post-"Bricks Are Heavy" work was part of his playlist; and I don't think that was coincidence. ;)


I also watched Some Kind of Monster. It's a pretty good documentary actually. Mustaine appeared as a big-time loser in those shrink sessions, he even went so far as to say that he'd give up anything if 20 years ago Ulrich passed him on to AA than sacking him. And how lousy it was to always feel second best to Metallica no matter what he did ever since. :bum:
Another shocking part of the documentary was that Bob Rock and Ulrich literally deprived Kirk Hammett from having any solos on the album ( cause it'd make it "dated" as they put it ).
-Never mind that Kirk was adamant against that idea saying that using no solos would "cement the album to that particualar period, to a trend in music that's happening right now" - we know what he meant by that, don't we? Needless to say, Ulrich and Rock had their way. Kirk appears as a bit of a puppet in this documentary and Ulrich is able to have his way all the time, even with Hetfield.

[ypsidan04]

Correct me if I'm wrong (I want Dan's opnion on this) but Foo Fighters, Smashing Pumpkins and The Pixies are not grunge.

I'm really not familiar enough with those to say.

Listen to the new Papa Roach album and see if you still think that way! It's a perfect example of a previously stereotyped band really breaking out of their pigeonhole.

Well I don't know about that. But speaking of "pigeonholes" that's exactly what Sum 41 seem to be doing with their new CD. Sometimes sounds like System of a Down, sometimes like Metallica. And I didn't make that up - I read that in a few reviews, and then with that in mind, I can really see the similarities. But it's not much like they used to be.
But when I think of grunge I can only think of Nirvana - or bands who copied them eg. Puddle of Mudd.

And Seether. And Bush. :p All good bands btw.
I saw Seether play ‘Drain You’

What in the world....Never heard of it. And yes he sounds a whole lot like Cobain. Definitely closer than those other two singers.
I don’t like the term “rock n roll”. It sounds so out-dated - like something my parents would say.

That's definitely right.
Where'd Dan get to?! :ithink:

This isn't my only forum. ;)
No I don't see similarities between Pearl Jam and Soundgarden - other than Temple of the Dog and Soundgarden's drummer joining Pearl Jam? There may be similarities between Alice In Chains and Stone Temple Pilots?

Look, the way I see it, you gotta be pretty keen to tell the difference between Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice In Chains, and STP. I mean STP originally faced a lot of criticism because of how similar they sounded to Pearl Jam (their first CD anyway).

Where was Layne's tributes?

Well he wasn't completely ignored (http://www.lyricscrawler.com/song/38948.html)

[Mossopp]

But speaking of "pigeonholes" that's exactly what Sum 41 seem to be doing with their new CD. Sometimes sounds like System of a Down, sometimes like Metallica. And I didn't make that up - I read that in a few reviews, and then with that in mind, I can really see the similarities. But it's not much like they used to be.
Yeah, you're right. I haven't listened to all of the new Sum41 album - I've never been a fan of theirs and I'm still not convinced after having heard 'We're All To Blame - but they have certainly made a massive change of direction. It can only be a good thing - the whole snotty-nosed pop-punk thing is really starting to bug me.
And Seether. And Bush. :p All good bands btw.
Seether are phenominal but I've never gotten into Bush. They just never really appealed to me.
On a side note; do you think Bush will change their name now that it's commonly associated with..........that guy? :rolleyes:
I'd seriously consider a name change if I were them!
What in the world....Never heard of it. And yes he sounds a whole lot like Cobain.
You've never heard 'Drain You'?? It's track 8 on Nirvana's 'Nevermind' album.
Look, the way I see it, you gotta be pretty keen to tell the difference between Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice In Chains, and STP. I mean STP originally faced a lot of criticism because of how similar they sounded to Pearl Jam (their first CD anyway).
Yeah, but STP broke away from the grunge tag quite quickly though, didn't they?
I agree you'd be hard push to notice any major differences in sound between Pearl Jam and Soundgarden, but Alice In Chains always stood apart from the rest of the Seattle bands as far as I'm concerned. They're lyrics were a lot darker and the music was much more brooding and aggressive.
Well he wasn't completely ignored (http://www.lyricscrawler.com/song/38948.html)
Oh, cool. I'm not a Staind fan so it's understandable that that song could have passed me by. Nice tribute to Layne, there. :yes:

[ypsidan04]

I'm still not convinced after having heard 'We're All To Blame

Really? That's a great song. It's got System of a Down written all over it, let me tell you. Not just the sound, but the fast-slow tempo changes, and even the lyrics I can imagine fit right in.
Seether are phenominal but I've never gotten into Bush. They just never really appealed to me. On a side note; do you think Bush will change their name now that it's commonly associated with..........that guy? :rolleyes:
I'd seriously consider a name change if I were them!

Well they haven't released an album since 2001, so I don't even know if they're still going strong. And they are from Britain, so I wouldn't put it past them. And I don't like them much, but they're okay.
You've never heard 'Drain You'?? It's track 8 on Nirvana's 'Nevermind' album

Oh that explains it, it's not original. Maybe I have, but I don't recognize the name.
Yeah, but STP broke away from the grunge tag quite quickly though, didn't they?

Yeah, you bet. They were quite similar to Soundgarden in the fact that they changed noticably from one album to the next. But their first album which I have is definitely grunge and is their best IMO, not including the Greatest Hits album. But their best song I think is "Interstate Love Song" from the second album.
but Alice In Chains always stood apart from the rest of the Seattle bands as far as I'm concerned. They're lyrics were a lot darker and the music was much more brooding and aggressive.

Yeah, you're right on second thought.
Oh, cool. I'm not a Staind fan so it's understandable that that song could have passed me by. Nice tribute to Layne, there. :yes:

Yeah, I like Staind a lot. I have their second and third CDs and will get their first sometime soon. And they are releasing a fourth album this year, but no set date yet. So is Seether, Evanescence, Lacuna Coil, hopefully Audioslave, SOAD is releasing *two*, Lucerin Blue (http://www.mp3.com/albums/573837/summary.html), and maybe Linkin Park too. This is gonna be good year for music, at least from my point of view. :D

[ypsidan04]

http://music.yahoo.com/read/news/22715489

- They refuse to carry CDs that aren't completely clean, even if there's only two instences as in this case. As if swear words are anywhere near the top of the biggest problems facing mankind. :rolleyes:

- They have tried to build stores on top of a Native burial ground in Hawai'i, and very near an ancient Aztec ruin in Mexico City. Both were extremely insensitive and arrogant. I don't know if they were able to build those or not, but there was much protest.

- The reason they are so cheap is probably because a good amount of their products are made in East Asia, specifically China. They put more money into the Chinese economy than the whole of Russia and the whole of Great Britain. And I prefer not to support a country that is among the worst human rights abusers on Earth.

Tens of thousands of people continued to be detained or imprisoned in violation of their fundamental human rights and were at high risk of torture or ill-treatment. Thousands of people were sentenced to death or executed, many after unfair trials. Public protests increased against forcible evictions and land requisition without adequate compensation. China continued to use the global “war on terrorism” to justify its crackdown on the Uighur community in Xinjiang. Freedom of expression and religion continued to be severely restricted in Tibet and other Tibetan areas of China.

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/chn-summary-eng

Walmart has had countless lawsuits against it claiming unfair treatment of employees. They're putting local "Mom and Pop" stores out of business. And finally, you can get the exact same stuff for just about the same price at Target and KMart, among others.