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Rachel
16-11-2004, 18:46
Topic: Why is it ok for certain groups to diss others while the opposite is considered wrong?


Exhibit A: Eminem
Any man who uses the word "faggot" that often has obviously got serious issues with his own sexuality...IMO modern rap/hip-hop is full of closeted artists. Why do all those rappers feel the need to grab their crotches every 5 seconds and constantly use their lyrics to reaffirm how manly they are. Purrr-lease :rolleyes:
Eminem is a stupid little boy with no talent what so ever. I mean, he's what?! In his early thirties and he's still so angry with his mum etc?!! He needs to grow up, get off the drugs and be a REAL father to his daughter.

But yeah, maybe all that anger has built up from hiding something :p

I have real issues with rappers. Why do many rappers (who are predominantly black), who have traditionally been victims of discrimination themselves for their colour support discrimination towards others? I think they have some kind of belief that they need some "other" to be less than them. And unfortunately it's homosexuals :(

And no, I'm not racist, I hate every homophobic of every colour in the world equally LOL

Sorry I know I went off topic etc, but I just had to say that :rolleyes:

Mossopp
16-11-2004, 22:48
I have real issues with rappers. Why do many rappers (who are predominantly black), who have traditionally been victims of discrimination themselves for their colour support discrimination towards others? I think they have some kind of belief that they need some "other" to be less than them. And unfortunately it's homosexuals :(
And no, I'm not racist, I hate every homophobic of every colour in the world equally LOL
Sorry I know I went off topic etc, but I just had to say that :rolleyes:
You've no need to apologise. I'm glad someone finally had the guts to say it.
It has been said that homophobia is the last accepted predudice. It's perfectly acceptable to make jokes and slurs at the expense of gay people, but God help you if you dare say one thing against black people! Eminem himself is a perfect example of this. He's been making vile homophobic comments for years and very few people (besides gay activist groups) have spoken out against him. But the very moment it emerges that he made a couple of remarks against black women on one of his early demo tapes the whole media, both in America and Europe, is on his back and forcing him to make a public apology!
It's 'Affirmative Action' gone crazy. Black comedians make jokes about white people all the time. But if a white comic makes jokes about black people he's labelled a "racist" (although in most instances - *cough* Jim Davidson *cough* Bernard Manning - that probably is the case). And consider the MOBO (Music Of Black Origin) Awards - it's all about pride and esteem. But if we were to have a MOWO Awards it would be classed as racism.
If I called someone a "n#gger" (not that I ever would do such a thing) I'd be treated like an outcast for the rest of my natural life. Yet I walk around town every day and hear the terms "gay", "fag", "queer", "homo" etc etc used as insults and slurs and noone bats an eye. But what happens if I speak out against such things? I get laughed at.
It's a sad, sad situation. And it's a situation that I don't see changing for a very long time.

I should also state, as Rachel did, that I am no racist in any way or form. I just see a hell of a lot of hypocracy going on when it comes to what is and what isn't acceptable in society these days.
I also think it sucks that I should feel obliged to reaffirm that I'm not a racist for fear of people taking my perfectly understandable viewpoint in entirely the wrong context.

OK, rant over.

Mossopp
16-11-2004, 23:43
Woah. Rach and I just unwittingly started a whole new topic on a whole new thread.
That's kinda cool.

Rachel
16-11-2004, 23:49
But if we were to have a MOWO Awards it would be classed as racismOMG How many times have I mentioned that to my friend Bam?!! To be honest I don't think they help themselves - it's as though they're trying to separete themselves from everyone else when what they should be doing is trying to get us all together and forget our colour!

If I called someone a "n#gger" (not that I ever would do such a thing) I'd be treated like an outcast for the rest of my natural life. Yet I walk around town every day and hear the terms "gay", "fag", "queer", "homo" etc etc used as insults and slurs and noone bats an eye. But what happens if I speak out against such things? I get laughed at.
It's a sad, sad situation. And it's a situation that I don't see changing for a very long time. Well I think you just confirmed how looked down upon it is to say "nigger" as you censored it LOL

I'm sick of the Tim Westwood show on Radio 1. This is the BBC and they find it perfectly ok to get rappers on there that have nothing more to say than "faggot". This is what the BBC spends our television license money on :rolleyes: The BBC won't show two girls having a short kiss, but they're fine about people shouting "faggot" over the radio. It's really sad.

I should also state, as Rachel did, that I am no racist in any way or form. I just see a hell of a lot of hypocracy going on when it comes to what is and what isn't acceptable in society these days.
I also think it sucks that I should feel obliged to reaffirm that I'm not a racist for fear of people taking my perfectly understandable viewpoint in entirely the wrong context.Would it be considered ok to hate black people because the majorly of them are homophobic and not actually because they are black? I was having this discussion recently with some of my friends and apparently I'm racist :rolleyes: But of course I was having this conversation with 2 straight girls, so they wouldn't understand how annoying it can be that there is such a double standard.

*Expects to get flamed* :lalala: :ithink:

Kate
17-11-2004, 00:13
all those rappers feel the need to grab their crotches every 5 seconds I must admit it's rather disturbing and even somewhat inappropriate. :none:

simon
17-11-2004, 00:26
At least it is becoming an issue in Britain. Look at the publicity Outrage has got for its campaign against Jamaican dance hall stars who incite murder of gay people - and the success they had in shaming the MOBO awards into uninviting them.

It's quite disturbing the way that people who have been the victims of prejudice themselves don't seem to be able to see that their prejudices against other people are just as wrong, but it's hardly surprising, lol.

Rachel
17-11-2004, 00:38
At least it is becoming an issue in Britain. Look at the publicity Outrage has got for its campaign against Jamaican dance hall stars who incite murder of gay people - and the success they had in shaming the MOBO awards into uninviting them. they were only uninvited due to the pressure they were put under by Outrage - it's not that the organisers actually cared! They were saving their skin.

It's quite disturbing the way that people who have been the victims of prejudice themselves don't seem to be able to see that their prejudices against other people are just as wrong, but it's hardly surprising, lol.No offense to anyone out there, but I think it's a bit like the notion that abused children usually end up abusers themselves.

I recently heard about a priest or whatever from Atlanta that said something like "when a gay person compares him/herself to the black community, he/she doesn't know what suffering is." It appears he seems to believe that suffering has only been experienced by blacks people and that everyone should shut up and put up with their "discomfort." He fails to understand the impact that homophobia has on gay people.

freddie
17-11-2004, 02:09
A'ight, I'd just like to say something in defence of Eminem. I don't think he's actualy a homophobe. I think he's just trying to show how ridiculous the views of the ACTUAL homophobes are... as in... you can't have any integrity if you're a homophobe. He raps in the role of a rapist, child-molestor or an axe-murderer as well, and he's none of those. But the fact he's raping as all those people should tell you something... he thinks the same of murderers as he does of homophobes.

Rachel
17-11-2004, 02:13
A'ight, I'd just like to say something in defence of Eminem... he thinks the same of murderers as he does of homophobes.So he's taking the piss out of Dr Dre etc? I f**king doubt it! He's the same as the rest of the rappers.

freddie
17-11-2004, 02:21
So he's taking the piss out of Dr Dre etc? I f**king doubt it! He's the same as the rest of the rappers.

Not any particular rapper or person. Just homophobes in general. When you rap about something so blatently, hatefuly and violently you CAN'T be serious. It's like a cartoon-show making fun of homophobes and their irrational fears.

Rachel
17-11-2004, 02:28
Not any particular rapper or person. Just homophobes in general.Nope, 99% of all rappers are homophobic so he's taking the piss out of pretty much every rapper out there. And of course that includes Dre who he has to thank for being where he is today :rolleyes: I doubt he'd do that! If that was the case he'd have his face rearranged by someone by now. (We can only wish LOL) :p

He may be putting humour into his videos (such as the recent one of Micheal Jackson) but he is being serious when he's dissing gay people.

When you rap about something so blatently, hatefuly and violently you CAN'T be serious. What makes you come to that conclusion? Does that incliude every homophobic rapper that say they want "faggots" dead? :rolleyes:

Kate
17-11-2004, 02:43
Ice_Cream, just don't take the lyrics so close to heart. Most of them are fake, you know. Like Tatu, for example. Eminem has his image that sells, and so the lyrics are written accordingly. It doesn't mean that he in person hates gay people at all. It does, however, mean that people buy lyrics that diss gay people. :hmmm:

Rachel
17-11-2004, 02:53
It does, however, mean that people buy lyrics that diss gay people. :hmmm: It's a sad, sad world :(

QueenBee
19-11-2004, 21:35
Well, about the Eminem thing... I like him alot, if you listen closely to his lyrics and read between the lines you realise when he's serious and when he's not. I don't think he is a homophobic, in fact, I don't think he has anything against homosexual people, and I do believe he has actually said so himself. There are actually songs of his which have very straight-forward, clear lyrics where he speaks about how crazy the world really is... ;) Hehe.

Well, I have friends who agree totally on this, as do I, so we had a little discussion about it a while ago now. I don't think it's just about rappers and gay people, but anyone... But to stick to the topic, I must agree with you completely - most rappers ARE black, and there's nothing wrong with that, and most of them want to fight against racism which is woohoo, but then they go dissing gay people, having half-naked "b#tches" and "h#es" dancing around in their videos...

Twisted world!

Kate
19-11-2004, 21:40
having half-naked "b#tches" and "h#es" dancing around in their videos... I hate that. Lol. All those videos seem so identical to me. And it's not like the girls who dance there actually have nice body shapes anyway... :rolleye:

Mossopp
19-11-2004, 22:15
Can I please ask the numerous Eminem fans on this forum exactly what it is that makes you so sure that he's joking when he makes his 'insightful' comments on the gay community?
Take these lines from 'Criminal' for example:

"My words are like a dagger with a jagged edge
that'll stab you in the head
whether you're a fag or lez
or the homosex, hermaph or a trans-a-ves
Pants or dress - hate fags? The answer's 'yes'"

What the hell is funny about that? What point is he making about today's society with that cheerful little ditty? To me, those are the words of a bitter, hateful, screwed-up little man.
Freddie suggested that Eminem is really just trying to point out how ridiculous and irrational the views of real homophobes are. But does Em end this 'song' by saying "Hey kids, this is all bullshit, don't subscribe to this school of thought! We should all just learn to get along!"?. No, I don't believe he does. In fact, he then goes on to another song about torturing and killing his ex-wife (and there was no disclaimer at the end of that track either!). Therefor, what makes you so sure that those lines aren't his own personal beliefs? Just because he says he's not homophobic doesn't mean he's telling the truth. He'd say and do anything to get the liberal media off his case - his duet with Elton-f#cking-John was proof of that!
Remember, we're talking about a man who has his ex's name tattooed on his body with the words "rot in pieces" written next to it. We're not discussing a rational, liberal, open-minded person here.

PowerPuff Grrl
07-12-2004, 06:40
I had no idea black people invented homophobia.
:rolleyes:

Mossopp
07-12-2004, 09:12
I had no idea black people invented homophobia.
:rolleyes:
I think the point that Rachel is trying to make is that a group of people like Blacks (I don't even know if I'm 'allowed' to refer to them as that anymore! :rolleyes: ) who are so hung up on all the discrimination they've faced over the years should be a bit more tolerant of others. How can a black man use the insult "faggot" so freely and then get outraged if he's called a "nigger"? That is the very definaition of a double-standard. If discrimination against black people is wrong, then discrimination against everyone is wrong.
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that Blacks "invented" homophobia.

PowerPuff Grrl
07-12-2004, 21:35
Sorry, I was trying to be sarcastic there. I know what you guys mean but thanks for clarifying anyway.
Now if you excuse me I will reply to every comment made in this thread that I disagree with, this may take awhile.

He's been making vile homophobic comments for years and very few people (besides gay activist groups) have spoken out against him. But the very moment it emerges that he made a couple of remarks against black women on one of his early demo tapes the whole media, both in America and Europe, is on his back and forcing him to make a public apology!
...
And consider the MOBO (Music Of Black Origin) Awards - it's all about pride and esteem. But if we were to have a MOWO Awards it would be classed as racism.


Now I don't know what the attitude is over in the UK but I do know here that when Eminem made those comments it were pretty big. He personally had to make the rounds with the press making it clear that he wasn't homophobic. He even went out of his way to sing a duet with Elton John at the Grammy Awards, which reminds me of the time when Kurt Cobain accused Axl Rose of being homophobic, Rose then sang a duet with Elton John to refute that (what the fcuk is up with Elton John). Furthermore, in Eminem's movie 8-mile I think he had a gay friend that co-workers picked on, though this is lame, Eminem defended the friend by saying to his co-workers "he may be gay, but you're a faggot." I told you it was lame, but his heart was in the right place.
As for him making those comments about black women, the issue runs a whole lot deeper than whatever you think Affirmative Action is. For one thing the black community does not like Eminem. Not him personally, they resent that fact that the sole reason why this guy popular is because he is white and therefor easier to sell accross the world. That this guy is doing the exact same thing that every hip hop artist before him has been doing. He is the Elvis Presly of the Hip Hop world. That is just big, fat blow to the Black community, but they cannot hate him because he is white, and really before his demo tapes were released they had no reason to hate him. The demo tapes just served as a front for them to unleash their rage, "first the guy steals our music for the amusement of white people, now he's going to insult us for the amusement of white poeple? Hell no!!!"

As for this MOBO Awards, I do not see what the problem with that is. Institutions like that helped prevent black artists from having their music stolen by white artist way back when. Yes I know it doesn't apply today now however they are celebrating history and frankly I commend that. I also commend the GLAAD Awards that rewards Gays, Lesbians, Bisexuals and Transgendered, because like those black institutions of the past, they realize that nobody will recognize their talent and where there talent is coming from unless they do.
Oh and there is a MOWO Awards though it isn't for music, it is called the Oscars. :D

Would it be considered ok to hate black people because the majorly of them are homophobic and not actually because they are black? I was having this discussion recently with some of my friends and apparently I'm racist But of course I was having this conversation with 2 straight girls, so they wouldn't understand how annoying it can be that there is such a double standard.

No, it wouldn't be ok.
Racist? No. Prejudiced? Yes.
I really don't understand how you guys could just focus on one minority. To assume that the majority of black people are homophobic has got to be the most generalizing thing I have ever heard. And even if you are right, do you honestly think that it is just black people? Because I have some seriously bad news to tell you; the majority of white people may also be homophobic, as well the South Asians, South East Asians, Hispanic, Arab, I could go on forever.
Do you think it was black people who voted for a President that is gunning for a constitutional ban on gay marriage? Do you think it was black people that voted for, in all ten states that had it on their ballots, a ban on gay marriage? Do you think black people run mega-networks like NBC and CBS that refused to air a commercial for the United Church that said GLBTs are welcomed, because apparently inclusiveness is now too controversial. And guess what?! Les Moonves, the CEO for CBS, is Jewish!!! :eek: OMG, a man coming from a group of people that definitely know the meaning of discrimination, but, but, but how could he do this? Do you know what is even more shocking though, BET (Black Entertainment Television) has no problems with it, as does UPN and network that's demographic is predominately black and so far their viewers are not complaining.

This reminds me of that age old requirement for black people to be accepted in the mainstream; in order to get the same thing a white people get we must be ten times better than them, because an average black person just will not do, no he must be extraordinary.
I still do not get why black people, specifically black people must not be homophobic. What the hell does our past have to do with anything? What, because we must know what it is like to be discriminated against? We are not the only people who have been the object of hatred.
What about women who are homophobic? Jews? Asians?...
What about gay people who are sexist, racist even? Yeah! it exists.
Just because black people are an easy target, doesn't make us the only target.
And just a tip from us black folk; when fighting against hatred it is useful and more effective to go after the big fish, you know the people who are actively, directly involved in limiting your rights, i.e. policy-makers.
And what of white people? Are you implying that because white people, particularly white males, never get discriminated against they can't possibly understand what it is like, so they get a free pass with homophobia. That is insulting to white people.

But while we are on the subject of double-standards, I find it extremely amusing that of all the really offensive things involved in the hip hop industry you guys just pay attention to the homophobic aspects. Among some of the most misogynistic lyrics, the only things that filters through your minds are the homophobic words. Why is that? Is it because the "bitches" that they are refering to are black, and you are white (assuming you are white). But doesn't that offend you? How black women are portrayed in their videos, doesn't that illicit that same reaction in you as their homophobic words do? It doesn't though does it? The only thing that offends you in those videos are how ugly those women's bodies are. Yeah!

Regarding the names "faggot" and "dyke." There are other words that insult people base on things that people cannot help.
Retarded - used in such phrases like "That is sooo retarded" => it is so stupid; insulting to people with autism.
Ghetto - used in such phrases like " That is soo ghetto" => it is soo black/poor; insulting to black people.
Gay - used in such phrases like "That is sooo gay" => it is soo stupid/weak; insulting to homosexuals.
Pussy - used in such phrases like "Do not be a pussy" => don't be weak; insulting to women.
Dick or Prick - used in such phrases like "you are being a dick/prick" => acting like an asshole; insulting to men.
Cracker or White - used in such phrases like "do act white" => don't act like a big dork; insulting to white people.

Lesson here, everybody can be an ass and we shouldn't let their history excuse them for it or lower our reagrd for them more than they deserve because of it.

Rachel
07-12-2004, 22:18
Now I don't know what the attitude is over in the UK but I do know here that when Eminem made those comments it were pretty big. He personally had to make the rounds with the press making it clear that he wasn't homophobic. He even went out of his way to sing a duet with Elton John at the Grammy Awards, which reminds me of the time when Kurt Cobain accused Axl Rose of being homophobic, Rose then sang a duet with Elton John to refute that (what the fcuk is up with Elton John).
Perrrleasseee, isn't the guy just trying a little too hard?! :rolleyes:

Furthermore, in Eminem's movie 8-mile I think he had a gay friend that co-workers picked on, though this is lame, Eminem defended the friend by saying to his co-workers "he may be gay, but you're a faggot." I told you it was lame, but his heart was in the right place.
Heart in the right place?!! I think it shows how narrow-minded and stupid he is!

The demo tapes just served as a front for them to unleash their rage, "first the guy steals our music for the amusement of white people, now he's going to insult us for the amusement of white poeple? Hell no!!!"
Steal their music?!! Ermmm...the phrase "get over yourself" springs to mind! Why anyone would wanna steal "their" music anyway is beyond me!

I also commend the GLAAD Awards that rewards Gays, Lesbians, Bisexuals and Transgendered, because like those black institutions of the past, they realize that nobody will recognize their talent and where there talent is coming from unless they do.
You think their talent is getting recognised now?!! When was the last time you heard the GLAAD Awards mentioned in mainsteam international media?!

I really don't understand how you guys could just focus on one minority. To assume that the majority of black people are homophobic has got to be the most generalizing thing I have ever heard. And even if you are right, do you honestly think that it is just black people? Because I have some seriously bad news to tell you; the majority of white people may also be homophobic, as well the South Asians, South East Asians, Hispanic, Arab, I could go on forever.
It's the black rappers that we hear the shit from 24/7, can you blame anyone from focusing on them?

Do you think it was black people who voted for a President that is gunning for a constitutional ban on gay marriage?
Erm...are you seriously suggesting they didn't vote for him because of his issues with gay marriage?!!

Do you think it was black people that voted for, in all ten states that had it on their ballots, a ban on gay marriage?
Errm...yes!!

Do you think black people run mega-networks like NBC and CBS that refused to air a commercial for the United Church that said GLBTs are welcomed, because apparently inclusiveness is now too controversial.
It's about religion mania - somthing blacks like to regually use to excuse their behaviour and attitude towards gay people!

And guess what?! Les Moonves, the CEO for CBS, is Jewish!!! :eek: OMG, a man coming from a group of people that definitely know the meaning of discrimination, but, but, but how could he do this?
I can't comment on this as I don't know of the guy, but tell me, is religion a part of his life?!!

Do you know what is even more shocking though, BET (Black Entertainment Television) has no problems with it, as does UPN and network that's demographic is predominately black and so far their viewers are not complaining.
I don't know of this "BET" but I'm guessing it's not a mainstream TV channel. And what have they shown to show their support for gay people?!

I still do not get why black people, specifically black people must not be homophobic. What the hell does our past have to do with anything? What, because we must know what it is like to be discriminated against? We are not the only people who have been the object of hatred.
Maybe it's something to do with the music black people are producing!!! It's gonna get our attention isn't it?!!

What about women who are homophobic? Jews? Asians?...
How many of these focus on using derogatory terms towards gay people and sell millions of records?!!

What about gay people who are sexist, racist even? Yeah! it exists. I never said it didn't exist, but I think gay people have more of a reason to have an issue with homophobic black people!

Just because black people are an easy target, doesn't make us the only target.
Easy target?!! God, you're joking right?!! If anyone is an easy target for anything it's GAY PEOPLE. Maybe you have a good long think about why black people are being focused on in this conversation!

And just a tip from us black folk; when fighting against hatred it is useful and more effective to go after the big fish, you know the people who are actively, directly involved in limiting your rights, i.e. policy-makers.
These "policy makers" are often religion fanatics, here we're focusing on hypocrites - people who think they are descrimated against 24/7 but find it find to support the killing of gay people!

And what of white people? Are you implying that because white people, particularly white males, never get discriminated against they can't possibly understand what it is like, so they get a free pass with homophobia. That is insulting to white people.
No, I am not saying that at all, as I said in my above comment I'm focusing on the hypocritical thing as it annoys the hell out of me!

Is it because the "bitches" that they are refering to are black, and you are white (assuming you are white). But doesn't that offend you? How black women are portrayed in their videos, doesn't that illicit that same reaction in you as their homophobic words do? It doesn't though does it? The only thing that offends you in those videos are how ugly those women's bodies are. Yeah!
These "bitches" are putting themselves in the videos and letting thewmselves get treated like that! Whose fault is that?!!

simon
08-12-2004, 01:05
I'm hesitating to somehow get involved in something turning into what I think rappers would call a "bitchfight" between Ice Cream and PowerPuff Grrl. What I want to say is that I don't think that black people as a group can be blamed for homophobia. I know there is some polling evidence that on average black people in the US have more anti-gay prejudice than white people in the US, but remarks like

Would it be considered ok to hate black people because the majorly of them are homophobic and not actually because they are black? I was having this discussion recently with some of my friends and apparently I'm racist :rolleyes: But of course I was having this conversation with 2 straight girls, so they wouldn't understand how annoying it can be that there is such a double standard.

are open to misinterpretation. It's not racist to hate a black person for being homophobic, but it is racist to hate black people because the majority of them are homophobic - that's showing prejudice towards individuals based on group characteristics. I once met a Jewish woman who told me that she hated Germans because of what had happened to members of her family in the Holocaust. She was of course being prejudiced, but was extremely angry when I tried to point it out to her. But to consider the Jewish analogy further (I'm of partly Jewish descent, before anyone starts accusing me of anti-semitism), look at the way the Israelis treat the Palestinians. After centuries of being mistreated in Europe, Jews go to Palestine and start mistreating the locals.

It's quite disturbing the way that people who have been the victims of prejudice themselves don't seem to be able to see that their prejudices against other people are just as wrong, but it's hardly surprising, lol.
No offense to anyone out there, but I think it's a bit like the notion that abused children usually end up abusers themselves.

I recently heard about a priest or whatever from Atlanta that said something like "when a gay person compares him/herself to the black community, he/she doesn't know what suffering is." It appears he seems to believe that suffering has only been experienced by blacks people and that everyone should shut up and put up with their "discomfort." He fails to understand the impact that homophobia has on gay people.

The way that most Israelis respond to any criticism of treatment of the Palestinians is to go on about how they are the victims of the Palestinians and when that won't wash to bring up the Holocaust and talk about how Jews have always been victims. It's easy to see this as just cynicism, but there's actually something deeper going on, as some left-wing Israelis have pointed out. There is indeed a lot of anti-Jewish prejudice among Arabs and the world in general. Why is so much more fuss made about what the Israelis have done to the Palestinians than about, say, what the Sudanese government is doing in Darfur right now, which is a hundred times worse? In the minds of most Israelis this justifies a belief that any criticism of them is yet another example of anti-Jewish prejudice (when all it really shows is that there are double standards, yet you don't have to commit genocide to behave appallingly). They have view of themselves as victims which means that they can't see themselves as the victimisers and resent the people they are victimising for claiming to be the victims.

I think something similar is going on among some black people regarding gay rights. They have, like the Atlanta clergyman, this idea that since they have always been the victims they resent the idea that some other group is claiming to be more victimised than them. This annoys the hell out of them, so they respond with prejudice against gays.

A similar example is the prejudice that some feminists have against transsexuals.

It's not logical in the normal sense, but there's a kind of logic to the irrationality.

Now this isn't inevitable. When South Africa was writing its new constitution in 1994 they put in it straight off that in future there would be no discrimination on the grounds of race, religion or gender. Then it was suggested that they should also forbid discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation. South Africa is a very conservative country, but when this point was raised, the ANC didn't want to be hypocrites and the National Party didn't want to be accused of having just replaced one set of prejudices with another. So in it went. :)

Ice Cream is right that there's something particularly galling about victims of prejudice being prejudiced themselves, but that's life I'm afraid. PowerPuff Grrl is right that black people shouldn't be held to higher standards than other people. Being the victim of prejudice doesn't make you a good, noble, logical or compassionate person. Often, it brutalises you. It's intrinsically no worse for a black person to be homophobic than a white person. But it is kind of inconsistent to say 'I'm against prejudice against me, but I'll be as prejudiced as I like towards other people'.

Unplugged
08-12-2004, 01:39
It's intrinsically no worse for a black person to be homophobic than a white person.
Black people are still victims of prejudice. And so are handicapped people, poor people, etc. So I don't understand how anyone who was a victim of prejudice can be prejudiced against other people. I think Rachel gave the black people example because it's very common. Now I don't think hating black people or whomever for being homophobic is the right sollution too. But it does leave a lot of space to interrogation, like why the hell would you attack someone and discriminate them on grounds of sexuality, religion, skin color, etc, if you were also discriminated and know how it feels like and how bad it is?! :confused: It seems like some sort of pathetic childish revenge. That and comparing "I suffered more than you" - it's like, how vague is that? People feel things so differently. What can be a huge offense and attack to you, can maybe be more easily ignored by me, so how the hell can you prove someone has suffered more than others? Pfff. :rolleyes:

Rachel
08-12-2004, 01:41
...like why the hell would you attack someone and discriminate them on grounds of sexuality, religion, skin color, etc, if you were also discriminated and know how it feels like and how bad it is?! :confused:That's EXACTLY what I'm trying to say! I'm glad someone can see that!

ypsidan04
08-12-2004, 02:30
Eminem is a stupid little boy with no talent what so ever. I mean, he's what?! In his early thirties and he's still so angry with his mum etc?!! He needs to grow up, get off the drugs and be a REAL father to his daughter.

Now I'm sorry, but he is the only rapper that I do like. Instead of rapping about hoes wit big asses, drinkin, smokin, going to clubs....he's rapping about REAL stuff that I could give a care about. I want to hear about growing up with one parent who was a drug abuser, and making it out alright, instead of "Ya, me n my doggz iz drinkin Bacardi in the club wit dem chicks wit da big asses!!!! (I hate 50 Cent. And his music is only the beginning.)". Heck, I know all the words to "Lose Yourself", which won a Grammy btw, and most of the words to "Cleaning Out My Closet". Eminem is cool with me, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't do drugs (please dont stereotype), and I'm sure he's around for his daughter as much as possible.

excuse me for going off topic.

What Mossopp has said sounds good to me. :) It's a shame that people use slang terms for homosexuals quite often, and the majority of the populace doesn't care. And speaking of the N word, it never fails to amaze me that blacks regularly use "nigger" to mean "dude", "homeboy", etc. Sometimes it's even comical.

freddie
08-12-2004, 09:40
I certainly don't agree that only black people are homophobic. Yeah rappers are the one getting targeted cause the their lyrics, but they're the ones dissing everybody and everything. They just don't make gays an exception. And I don't actualy see how the rap community represents the black race as a whole. It's not like they're ALL rappers. :p

It's a generalization really. It's just like saying all white people are homophobes because the majority of white hockey players are. One section, or a subculture of a society doesn't cover that whole population.

I can't say I condone most rappers lyrics when it comes to stuff about homophobia (I still say Eminem is mocking the homophobes themselves rather then gays), but it's not really something to make generalizations out of.

Just a samlpe of Eminem's lyrics (from the same song as Mossopp took her example from - Criminal):

You motherfuckin chickens ain't brave enough
to say the stuff I say, so this tape is shut
shit, half the shit I say, I just make it up
To make you mad so kiss my white naked ass
And if it's not a rapper that I make it as
I'ma be a fuckin rapist in a Jason mask

Mossopp
08-12-2004, 11:49
And speaking of the N word, it never fails to amaze me that blacks regularly use "nigger" to mean "dude", "homeboy", etc. Sometimes it's even comical.
The word "nigger" has kinda been reclaimed by the black community. They've turned it around on itself so, while it was originally used against them, it's now almost a term of endearment.
I still don't like that word though. And I agree that it does seem comical at times to hear black people use it.
Gay people have done a similar thing with the word "queer" I suppose, although to a much lesser extent.

simon
08-12-2004, 12:27
...like why the hell would you attack someone and discriminate them on grounds of sexuality, religion, skin color, etc, if you were also discriminated and know how it feels like and how bad it is?! :confused: That's EXACTLY what I'm trying to say! I'm glad someone can see that!
I understood what you're saying. It is paradoxical. I was trying to give an explanation for why it happens - I certainly wasn't defending it! I was victimised a lot as a child on the grounds of my nationality and it made me very much sympathise with other people who were the victims of prejudice, but a lot of people don't seem to have that ability to universalise their own experience.

Unplugged
08-12-2004, 15:55
I certainly don't agree that only black people are homophobic.
Nobody said "only black people" - it was just mentioned as an example of a group of people who were/are victims of prejudice and therefore shouldn't be prejudiced against others.

I was victimised a lot as a child on the grounds of my nationality and it made me very much sympathise with other people who were the victims of prejudice, but a lot of people don't seem to have that ability to universalise their own experience.
True :( :bebebe: