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dollparts3000
16-05-2004, 06:13
This thread was started by splitting the one about Shapovalov's new video.

I wouldn't say that he's "promoting" terrorism as such. But he is making light of something terrible for the purposes of entertainment and that has to be classed as bad taste, at the very least.



Ummm...after the recent photographs and allegations about what's been going on in Iraq under US rule, that's a bit pot calling the kettle black.
I don't really think this is the place for discussion of geopolitics, though. It's a complicated, sensitive subject not suited to sweeping generalisations.

Pot calling the kettle black??? Yeah right. Sure, the US has done some bad things but nothing in comparison to arab countries. And, anyway there are always bad guys in any army! That's the nature of war. Sometimes there are horrible guys who go to war because they like to kill other people. You think the Russian army is any different? That's a fact of any war. There are always going to be bad apples. And most of those pictures of the so called Americans brutalizing Iraqi prisoners are fakes and they have been reported to be fakes by the British. The fact that the American government speaks out against it shows their difference from the Arab's. How often have you ever heard an arab leader of a country apologize for mistreating prisoners?? There are people who have been in prison in arab countries for over 30 years for speaking out against the regime. There's no such thing as fairness in the arab world. There are no fair trials and there is little justice.

And if you think that you can compare the American army to the brutalities of the arabic rebels, arabic terrorists and arabic countries in general.

A man got his head cut off on t.v. for fuck sake! He didn't even get a trial and he wasn't even a soldiers!!! He was an innocent civilian.
They cut off your hands for stealing there.
Arabs have ripped Christians and jews apart in the street with their bare hands. (That Christian masacre)
It is legally acceptable to stone women to death.
A person can be kidnapped and put in prison for no reason.
A woman who only looks at another man while married may be stoned to death.
His family can be tortured for no reason
A family can strap their kid down to the table (legally) and genitally mutilate her without and drugs.
In Iraq, there were legal rape rooms where women and children were raped.
There are numerous other tortures performed there like drowning where an arabic guard in prison shoved a hose down a prisoners throat and drowned him.
The fatwa for Jihad calls for the death of all non-muslims including non-religious muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindu's etc. etc. It is in the Koran.
The Koran encourages muslims to seek out the death of all non-muslims however there are moderate muslims who don't take this part of the Koran so seriously. I know some moderate muslims who aren't hateful but they are aware that the Koran calls for such an act. If you don't believe me, type: Jihad and Koran or Quaran in google.com

I know people from Iran who live in fear of being kidnapped in the night. They are scared of their own government and the people who live around them. Yes, there are some good people but many of the people who live in the arab world are fucking nuts and full of hatred.

Go there. Go to Saudi Arabia or any other country. You would probably meet the same fate of Nicolas Berg or be sold into a brothel.

You're right this isn't the place for politics so I'll stop talking about it. I am not anti-arab. I have met some very nice muslims and Christinan arabs who live in North America. I listen to them tell me stories about their country and many of the people in it. It scares me what I hear. I am scared but they have nightmares and they will probably live in fear for the rest of their life.

They know that not all men are good and that there is evil in this world because they have seen evil. Many Europeans and North Americans don't even know what evil looks like because many haven't seen it to that extent. They are so used to Hollywood movies where everythings black and white. It's hard for me to understand the hatred and evil that exists in the middle east because I haven't seen it but they have and they have known people who were kidnapped in the night for saying something anti-polical in the street. They have looked into the face of evil.

If Shapalov is trying to promote terrorism, he is a loser and a sick fuck
Tatu had something positive to say.
This is just sick and disgusting.

Dent
16-05-2004, 06:59
[still on the OT:] Arabs huh? Quite generalized... ;) [exiting OT]

Bout Shapovalov: Dude, get a life! :mad:

RowerB
16-05-2004, 07:46
If I said what I think about the USA and their Israeli paymasters, I’d probably get banned, dollparts3000.

As far as this vid is concerned, I’d like to see it, or at least have a more detailed description of it, before deciding whether it promotes terrorism.

haku
16-05-2004, 12:09
Wow, what a display of ignorance dollparts3000, thanks for sharing your views on geopolitics, "Arabs are evil!", that's deep...

But i'm used to your style, i'll invite people to visit this thread where you shared some of your other views on a totally different subject:
http://forum.tatysite.net/showthread.php?t=6517


I'm not going to waste my time replying in detail because you've obviously been totally brainwashed by US propaganda.

The Arab world has been a center of civilization for centuries, many scientific discoveries were made by Arab scientists during the Middle Ages. The Arab world is now going through some dark ages, it happens to every civilizations.

The root of most problems in the Middle East is the unconditional support of the US to Israeli policy and the oppression of Palestinian Arabs. If the US had not supported this policy, the world would be a more peaceful place today.

An American was decapitated by Arab terrorists...
At least 10 Iraqis died while being "interrogated" by US soldiers.

A thousand innocent civilians died in the World Trade Center attack...
At least 5 thousands innocent Iraqi civilians died because of US bombings during the invasion of Iraq.

Political opponents are imprisoned in Arab countries...
The US have illegally imprisoned thousands of people in Guantanamo, no legal grounds for the arrests, no charges, no lawyers, no trials. The day Guantanamo was created the US ceased to be a democracy and are in no position to give lessons to anyone, even more so now that the US are torturing prisoners of war.

Arab countries have barbaric laws based on a misinterpretation of the Koran...
The US are still using death penalty which is also barbaric, and even minors or mentally ill people can be executed.

I could go on...


I know people from Iran [...] many of the people who live in the arab world are fucking nuts and full of hatred.
One last thing... Iran is not an Arab country, Iranians are Persians and part of the Indo-European family. All European and Indian people (with a few exceptions like Finns, Hungarians, or Dravidians) as well as their languages are all descendants of an ancient people that lived in northern Iran 12 thousand years ago. Persians are direct descendants of that ancient people and not at all related to Arabs, either ethnically or linguistically.

transcend
16-05-2004, 13:17
Hmmmmm, I'm hesitating to stick my oar in here and I haven't got Haku's impressive geographical and historical knowledge (I bow my head to the French education system) but I will say this. I am a very definitely left-leaning and liberal minded, educated woman whose sexual leanings definitely veer towards the bi. As such, I can't deny that the rise of Islamic fundamentalism both terrifies and enrages me - because of its sheer, bloody wrongheadedness. My own spiritual beliefs are probably closest to Zen Buddhism and I was pretty appalled to see those ancient statues of Buddha being destroyed in Afghanistan a few years back...but here's the difference - I'm not about to go wreaking havoc against those who supported the Taliban, in some crazy act of vengeance. Statues are statues, but human life is sacred, to be cherished above all - precisely as the purported Buddha taught.

I will profess my ignorance of the Quran - I don't know about the true nature of the Jihad personally, but I know there is much debate about whether it is to be interpreted as a physical or spiritual battle. So to get to the point here, I can actually take everybody's opinion on board. As Haku and a few others here have stated, I think there are obvious historical, political and economic injustices (largely the responsibility of the Western world - and yes, I mean the entire Western world, Including my own country: the UK, and France as well - let's quit the childish and unfair American-bashing) that have fuelled the rise of Islamic fundamentalism, but whilst knowing the facts that Haku presents are entirely correct - that Iraqi deaths would easily outstrip American casualties etc I just can't find it within myself to bleed for a culture and people that have tolerated a despotic, unenlightend regime like that of Saddam's and those of the other Fundamentalist despots for so long. Maybe it is hard-hearted of me, and if I was better informed I might well have a change of heart, but again, let's not compare America to a regime like that of Saddam's. I am no supporter of George Bush whatsoever and agree that US (and British and French, again) foreign policy leaves a lot to be desired but on a sliding-scale, it ain't even close. Honestly, which country would you rather be living in?

simon
16-05-2004, 13:26
Oh dear, we're getting into a discussion about Islam and the United States. haku - your argument seems to be that everything in the world is the fault of the United States and Israel. Your comparisons are grossly unfair. The US is far from perfect and I'm very critical of it, but this idea that the US is worse than Osama bin Laden or Saddam Hussein would be laughable if it weren't so sick.

Saddam Hussein murdered 300,000 Iraqi citizens (UN estimate); it is indeed possible that 5000 Iraqi civilians died in the US invasion of Iraq, which is less than the number of people that Saddam Hussein murdered every year during his rule. The ten Iraqis who have died under US interogation in the last year is less than the number of Iraqis who died under torture every week under Saddam. United States personnel have tortured suspected insurgents at Abu Ghraib. The Baath Party had regularly and officially committed far worse tortures on a far larger scale than anything the Americans have done to people who simply expressed a contrary opinion. In fact, all Arab states routinely torture political opponents. This does not excuse what was done, but it's important to keep it in perspective.

The fact that the US has executed several hundred convicted murderers over the last 30 years is neither equivalent nor comparable to stoning women to death for adultery in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan or Afghanistan under the Taliban; nor is it equivalent or comparable to the mass murder of members of the "wrong" ethnic group, as happened in Saddam's Iraq, Taliban Afghanistan or is happening now in Sudan. The human rights abuses committed in these Muslim countries are far worse and on a much larger scale than anything the US has done in recent years.

I do not support Guantanamo Bay, but keeping supected terrorists under detention is not worse than keeping peaceful political opponents in prison and torturing them, which happens in every Arab country.

Israel's driving Palestinians from their homes in 1948 and its occupation since 1967 of the West bank and the Gaza Strip are wrong, but they did not cause or justify the dictatorships in Arab countries. What Saddam did to the Iraqi people is far worse than anything Israel has done to the Palestinians. The way the Saudi regime treats women is also worse than the way Israel treats the Palestinians. The Sudanese government has massacred tens of thousands of its non-Arab citizens in the last few months. What has been the reaction of the Arab states? They helped elect Sudan to sit on the UN Commission for Human Rights. The only country that protested against this travesty was - the US.

I remember the millions of people who marched against the overthrow of Saddam. I don't remember them protesting when Saddam was massacring his own people. I don't see them protesting about what is going on in the Sudan. Indeed, haku claims that the root cause of the problems of the Middle East is US support for Israel. I'm not clear why that makes it necessary for Sudan to massacre its black citizens.

Make no mistake, I despise George Bush. But there is a dangerous tendency among people around the world who dislike the US to romanticise anyone who is in conflict with 'The Great Satan' and pretend to themselves that the failure of the US to live up to the principles enshrined in its Constitution makes it as bad as or worse than Al Qaeda (which proclaimed after the Madrid bombings "you love life and we love death"), Saddam Hussein (who consciously modelled himself on Joseph Stalin) or the Sudanese regime (which has ideas about Arab racial purity that seem to owe a lot to the Nazis).

transcend
16-05-2004, 13:41
Thanks for that informative post, Simon, it's nice to see you're still around.

Linda16
16-05-2004, 14:14
The heated discussion here about Islamic fundamentalism, US and Iraq, proves that Ivan has hit the nail again :p But I want to repeate - the key-word is Chechnya.

haku
16-05-2004, 14:19
I know, i know, French people (aka filthy frogs) are ungrateful traitors who hate the US and sell weapons to terrorists around the world to kill American people (not to mention that we smell because we never shower). I've been said that quite a lot by Americans on American forums where i used to go.

I'm no friend of Saddam or Al Qaeda but the mere fact of criticizing the US makes you a pro-terrorist in this day and age of intellectual brainwashing.

I've made very clear in this thread (http://forum.tatysite.net/showthread.php?t=7260) that i believe that at some point during this century there will be a general conflict between the West and Muslim theocracies (which is not the same thing as Arab countries). I've also explained why i think that opening a front in this conflict *now* was a strategic mistake from the US.

When this conflict happens and if i'm still alive, there is no doubt where my allegiance will lie, of course i will support the my own civilization!


That being said, the US are in the process of being taken over by a Christian theocracy and their democracy is weakening day after day, anyone can see that, even some Americans do.
I won't support that just because there are "evil" Arabs that are doing worst things that "good" Christians.


Now excuse me while i'll go eat some Liberty fries.

simon
16-05-2004, 14:22
The heated discussion here about Islamic fundamentalism, US and Iraq, proves that Ivan has hit the nail again :p But I want to repeate - the key-word is Chechnya.

Yes, but I want to repeat that he did it before when he showed Yulia suicide bombing Lena and her boyfriend in 30 Minutes.

QueenBee
16-05-2004, 14:29
Wow, this has turned into an interesting discussion. :eek: I don't know much about politics, but I just gotta comment, who said all Arabs are evil? Many arabs want peace, many want war, just like many Americans want peace, and many want war. The arabs I know are very happy that Saddam is no longer in charge, I actually celebrated with them and they are very thankful for the US for doing this. Although, right now US army are treating people badly too, so I wouldn't say they're the "good guys". I am against Bush and the way he handles things, because everything seems to be about religion - the Bible says this, the Bible says that, he doesn't agree with homosexuality, why should I support the guy?

About the Shapovalov video: To me it sounds interesting, it's a touchy and scandalous subject and I like that. It should be interesting to see. I don't find it sick in any way, because things that will apparently be shown in the video, are already happening in some places - it's just the truth on television.

transcend
16-05-2004, 14:53
The heated discussion here about Islamic fundamentalism, US and Iraq, proves that Ivan has hit the nail again :p But I want to repeate - the key-word is Chechnya.

Of course, Linda, in Russia it will immediately have that resonance, but the fact that it equally strikes a raw nerve here in the West proves what a potent image it is. I have to hand it to Ivan, he certainly knows how to produce these iconic (or even iconoclastic) images. In fact, artistically speaking, I think the initial trio of videos he created for tATu have been his greatest achievement - in ATTSS/YSSU and NGGU/NND particularly - those images are sensational, honestly, the best pop videos I've seen in years.

I don't know what to make of the suicide-bomber idea, actually. Clearly it has tremendous provocative potential...but as for the morality of it? Is it just crass, where the tATu ideas were perfectly measured and premeditated? Dunno ....but I'm interested to see this video when it appears.

LenochkaO
16-05-2004, 15:58
I just can't find it within myself to bleed for a culture and people that have tolerated a despotic, unenlightend regime like that of Saddam's and those of the other Fundamentalist despots for so long.

Could you find it within yourself to bleed for the North Koreans? They've suffered just as despotic a regime as the Iraqis, if not much, much worse. But I can't blame them for being unable to break free. I pity anyone who has had to live in such conditions, and thank whatever higher being there may be that I've been fortunate enough to be born into and live in a democratic society (whatever you may think of the Japanese political system :))

Incidentally, who propped up Saddam for years when it was politically expedient to do so? Yes, that's right. It was the UK and the US, because we thought "Hell, he may be a bastard, but he's our bastard, and at least he's not a hardline Muslim unlike Khomeini next door, and we wouldn't want the Commies to come in and start making friends with him. Better to have him inside our tent pissing out, than the other way around". Which, admittedly, is the way geopolitics has worked for generations, but I don't have to like it.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that it's not clear cut. Yes, Saddam was a bastard, but who helped to keep him there? But apportioning blame doesn't help. We're in the situation we're in and we'd better find some kind of workable solution pdq, otherwise gallons more blood will be spilt on both sides. It's just unfortunate that the current leaders of the US and the UK couldn't find their arses with a map (though R'Tony might manage it with a little help from his spin doctors), let alone draw up a roadmap for Middle Eastern peace.

Yes, but I want to repeat that he did it before when he showed Yulia suicide bombing Lena and her boyfriend in 30 Minutes.

Was that actually a suicide, though? I thought she planted the bomb and watched it explode...

Dent
16-05-2004, 16:05
Was that actually a suicide, though? I thought she planted the bomb and watched it explode...

Yep. Well at least, she was so close to the explosion that yes, that was suicide :D

transcend
16-05-2004, 16:15
Could you find it within yourself to bleed for the North Koreans?



Yes, LenochkaO, I knew it was only a matter of time before somebody mentioned Norh Korea, and it is the obvious example of the inconsistency of approach in Western foreign policy, morally speaking. But that's the catch isn't it, how moral can any country's foreign policy be, given the current military stakes, unless you're willing to put your entire civilian population at mortal risk and launch into total war? The reality of foreign policy is that it is a messy, ugly business constricted and defined by a million and one different contingent factors and every country's (and I mean, every country's) primary concern will be their own strategic and economic interests. I don't like it, and I would love to see the arms industry lose its veil of respectability too, while we're at it, and have governments act out of purely altruistic concerns, but it ain't going to happen any time soon, is it?

haku
16-05-2004, 16:58
Was that actually a suicide, though? I thought she planted the bomb and watched it explode...
This was discussed in an old thread. :) Generally people either believe that Yulia died in the explosion along with Lena and her *gasp* male lover (how despicable of her :D - on a side note, it's funny that it's actually Yulia and *her* male lover who blew up Tatu's image and career), or that Yulia watched it and then went back to the toilet stall to end her life.

scotfan
16-05-2004, 17:18
Arabs, Koreans . . . who's next!

Tatu Nation is frustrated. It's not working out right.

haku
16-05-2004, 20:11
Oh dear, we're getting into a discussion about Islam and the United States. haku - your argument seems to be that everything in the world is the fault of the United States and Israel. Your comparisons are grossly unfair. The US is far from perfect and I'm very critical of it, but this idea that the US is worse than Osama bin Laden or Saddam Hussein would be laughable if it weren't so sick.
I never said that the US was worse than Osama bin Laden or Saddam Hussein, i never even mentioned those names. I was replying to a post stating that "Arabs are evil", my reply meant "Americans are no angels". President Bush and many American citizens seem to think that their nation has been chosen by God to enlighten the world and cleanse it from evil. The US keeps saying "This is a fight of good versus evil", this biblical rhetoric is totally insane and leading us toward a frontal clash of civilizations that is in no way the right strategy to defeat Muslim extremists, quite the contrary, Muslim extremists are thriving on it! But yeah, i'm clearly the one who's sick.

Saddam Hussein murdered 300,000 Iraqi citizens (UN estimate); it is indeed possible that 5000 Iraqi civilians died in the US invasion of Iraq, which is less than the number of people that Saddam Hussein murdered every year during his rule. The ten Iraqis who have died under US interogation in the last year is less than the number of Iraqis who died under torture every week under Saddam. United States personnel have tortured suspected insurgents at Abu Ghraib. The Baath Party had regularly and officially committed far worse tortures on a far larger scale than anything the Americans have done to people who simply expressed a contrary opinion. In fact, all Arab states routinely torture political opponents. This does not excuse what was done, but it's important to keep it in perspective.
When terrorists murder people, that's expected, that's what they do. When dictators oppress their people, that's expected, that's what they do. When a so-called democracy tortures prisoners of war and bomb entire civilian areas to kill a few terrorists, that's unacceptable. And most importantly, why is the US even there? The fact that a country is run by a dictator does not allow another country to invade it. The US is saying that they are there to "liberate" the Iraqi people. Why? What gave them the right to invade a country and change its government? Of course the dead of the 9/11 attacks had to be avenged, it doesn't matter that Iraqis had nothing to do with the attacks, any Arabs would do, they are all evil. And let's not kid ourselves, the Iraqi people won't be free for a long time, they won't have more freedom under the puppet government the US is going to install than under Saddam's regime.

The fact that the US has executed several hundred convicted murderers over the last 30 years is neither equivalent nor comparable to stoning women to death for adultery in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan or Afghanistan under the Taliban; nor is it equivalent or comparable to the mass murder of members of the "wrong" ethnic group, as happened in Saddam's Iraq, Taliban Afghanistan or is happening now in Sudan. The human rights abuses committed in these Muslim countries are far worse and on a much larger scale than anything the US has done in recent years.
Yeah, it's a well known fact that all people that have been executed in the US were guilty without a doubt, and it's only a coincidence that most of them were black.

I do not support Guantanamo Bay, but keeping supected terrorists under detention is not worse than keeping peaceful political opponents in prison and torturing them, which happens in every Arab country.
Again, when a dictatorship imprisons opponents, that's expected, that's what they do. When a so-called democracy imprisons people for years with no formal charges, no proofs, no trials, no defense, that's unacceptable. I stand by my point, when a democracy infringe human rights, it's worse than when a dictatorship does.

Israel's driving Palestinians from their homes in 1948 and its occupation since 1967 of the West bank and the Gaza Strip are wrong, but they did not cause or justify the dictatorships in Arab countries. What Saddam did to the Iraqi people is far worse than anything Israel has done to the Palestinians. The way the Saudi regime treats women is also worse than the way Israel treats the Palestinians. The Sudanese government has massacred tens of thousands of its non-Arab citizens in the last few months. What has been the reaction of the Arab states? They helped elect Sudan to sit on the UN Commission for Human Rights. The only country that protested against this travesty was - the US.
The US were saying that the Berlin wall was a shame for humanity, but the Israeli "security fence" is a great idea? Double standards.
Each time Israelis are killed by Palestinians, the US is outraged, but when an Israeli helicopter launches 3 missiles on a group of palestinians just to assassinate one Palestinian leader, the US says that it's ok. Double standards.
And if the Sudanese regime is so horrible (which i don't doubt), why didn't the US invade them already since it seems that suddenly the US want to overthrow every dictatorship in the word (expect Libya that seems to be a "good" country now).

I remember the millions of people who marched against the overthrow of Saddam. I don't remember them protesting when Saddam was massacring his own people. I don't see them protesting about what is going on in the Sudan. Indeed, haku claims that the root cause of the problems of the Middle East is US support for Israel. I'm not clear why that makes it necessary for Sudan to massacre its black citizens.
I never said that either. When i said that the unconditional support of the US for Israel was the root of the problems in the Middle East, i was talking about international insecurity and terrorism. The fact that most countries in the Middle East are dictatorships is obviously not the fault of the Israeli/palestinian conflict, and i never said it was, but that's not an international threat either, that does not concerns us. What concerns us is that the Israeli/palestinian conflict has caused Muslim extremists to thrive and is the reason of international terrorism. If the US had had a more balanced attitude in this conflict, the situation wouldn't be nearly as bas as it is today.
I don't see why you keep bringing the fact that most countries in the Middle East are dictatorships. We all know that and it's not our problem, western countries don't have any legal rights to change regimes in other countries even if we don't like them. As long as they don't pose a threat to our security, it's none of our concern.

Now, i'm perfectly aware that Muslim terrorism is a threat that has to be dealt with, and like i said two posts earlier, i've explained in another thread why i think that starting an open front in the heart of the Middle East was a strategic mistake, ineffective and counter-productive (meaning that it's going to cause more terrorism, not less). The war against terrorism has to be led in a much more subtler way: intelligence, infiltration of enemy networks, selective assassinations. Barging in a country and blasting away not wondering who you're killing may be the American way, but it's not going to lead us anywhere, except more senseless bloodshed.

10% of the French population is from Arab origin, terrorist networks are at work in this population and those networks are infiltrated by our intelligence (and having French people who look and speak Arabic perfectly is an asset here). French people may be stupid and traitors according to the Americans, but we do have a fairly good knowledge of Arab culture and how to approach those populations, and we do fight against terrorism in our own, more discreet way.

simon
16-05-2004, 22:33
I never said that the US was worse than Osama bin Laden or Saddam Hussein, i never even mentioned those names. I was replying to a post stating that "Arabs are evil", my reply meant "Americans are no angels". President Bush and many American citizens seem to think that their nation has been chosen by God to enlighten the world and cleanse it from evil. The US keeps saying "This is a fight of good versus evil", this biblical rhetoric is totally insane and leading us toward a frontal clash of civilizations that is in no way the right strategy to defeat Muslim extremists, quite the contrary, Muslim extremists are thriving on it! But yeah, i'm clearly the one who's sick.

What I said was sick was to make out that there was a moral equivalence between the US and its enemies, that the failure of the US to live up to the highest standards made it no better than them.

When terrorists murder people, that's expected, that's what they do. When dictators oppress their people, that's expected, that's what they do. When a so-called democracy tortures prisoners of war and bomb entire civilian areas to kill a few terrorists, that's unacceptable.

So you are quite open about having double standards. Saddam can torture people and its none of your business, but if the Americans do it, then you're outraged.

And most importantly, why is the US even there? The fact that a country is run by a dictator does not allow another country to invade it. The US is saying that they are there to "liberate" the Iraqi people. Why? What gave them the right to invade a country and change its government?

I disagree. I think that we were right to intervene in Kosovo. I think that the world should have intervened to stop the genocide in Rwanda in 1994 (I won't talk about France's active support for the genocidaires).

The idea that what happens in other countries is none of our business and we should only intervene when our own interests are directly threatened is not morality, it's selfishness dressed up as a moral principle.

Of course the dead of the 9/11 attacks had to be avenged, it doesn't matter that Iraqis had nothing to do with the attacks, any Arabs would do, they are all evil. And let's not kid ourselves, the Iraqi people won't be free for a long time, they won't have more freedom under the puppet government the US is going to install than under Saddam's regime.

You think that the Iraqi people won't have more freedom than under Saddam's regime? They already have far more freedom! Your fury at the US seems to be detaching you from reality.

Yeah, it's a well known fact that all people that have been executed in the US were guilty without a doubt, and it's only a coincidence that most of them were black.

I wasn't defending the implementation of the death penalty in the US, I was pointing out that it wasn't comparable with stoning adulteresses or torturing your political opponents to death. Try to have a sense of perspective.

Again, when a dictatorship imprisons opponents, that's expected, that's what they do. When a so-called democracy imprisons people for years with no formal charges, no proofs, no trials, no defense, that's unacceptable. I stand by my point, when a democracy infringe human rights, it's worse than when a dictatorship does.

This is the most extraordinary double standard!

I'm also intrigued that you care. You say that what Saddam did to his people was no business of ours. Why are you so worked up about what the Americans do?

The US were saying that the Berlin wall was a shame for humanity, but the Israeli "security fence" is a great idea? Double standards.
Each time Israelis are killed by Palestinians, the US is outraged, but when an Israeli helicopter launches 3 missiles on a group of palestinians just to assassinate one Palestinian leader, the US says that it's ok. Double standards.

The US is guilty of double standards - but talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Your post was nothing except an expression of double standards.

And if the Sudanese regime is so horrible (which i don't doubt), why didn't the US invade them already since it seems that suddenly the US want to overthrow every dictatorship in the word (expect Libya that seems to be a "good" country now).

The US is already completely stretched in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'd be delighted if they intervened in Sudan to stop the massacres. I take it you'd be outraged?

When i said that the unconditional support of the US for Israel was the root of the problems in the Middle East, i was talking about international insecurity and terrorism. The fact that most countries in the Middle East are dictatorships is obviously not the fault of the Israeli/palestinian conflict, and i never said it was, but that's not an international threat either, that does not concerns us. What concerns us is that the Israeli/palestinian conflict has caused Muslim extremists to thrive and is the reason of international terrorism. If the US had had a more balanced attitude in this conflict, the situation wouldn't be nearly as bas as it is today.

The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is destabilising and it's a terrible that the US isn't more even-handed about it. But the fact that all the Arab countries are dictatorships is an equally important factor in Muslim extremism.

I don't see why you keep bringing the fact that most countries in the Middle East are dictatorships. We all know that and it's not our problem, western countries don't have any legal rights to change regimes in other countries even if we don't like them. As long as they don't pose a threat to our security, it's none of our concern.

What a wonderful defence of liberty, equality and fraternity! I think that morally, it is our concern. I think that human rights are more important than state sovereignty. More practically, it's exactly your kind of thinking that led to 9/11. People thought that the Taliban in Afghanistan and Saudi support for them were none of our business, no threat. It was a huge mistake.

Now, i'm perfectly aware that Muslim terrorism is a threat that has to be dealt with,

With the benefit of hindsight. I bet you wouldn't have supported overthrowing the Taliban before 9/11.

and like i said two posts earlier, i've explained in another thread why i think that starting an open front in the heart of the Middle East was a strategic mistake, ineffective and counter-productive (meaning that it's going to cause more terrorism, not less). The war against terrorism has to be led in a much more subtler way: intelligence, infiltration of enemy networks, selective assassinations. Barging in a country and blasting away not wondering who you're killing may be the American way, but it's not going to lead us anywhere, except more senseless bloodshed.

The Americans have mishandled Iraq. The belief was that Saddam was developing WMD, so getting rid of him would remove a threat and establishing Iraq as a democracy would lead to wider positive changes in the Middle East. Things haven't gone according to plan and I'm concerned that it's not going to help the wider war. But that's a different argument. It's not the same as asserting that the Americans are no better than Saddam. I know the Iraqi people would disagree with you (and I can point to opinion polls on the matter).

10% of the French population is from Arab origin, terrorist networks are at work in this population and those networks are infiltrated by our intelligence (and having French people who look and speak Arabic perfectly is an asset here). French people may be stupid and traitors according to the Americans, but we do have a fairly good knowledge of Arab culture and how to approach those populations, and we do fight against terrorism in our own, more discreet way.

Yes, it's so discreet that you've hardly arrested anyone involved in these networks, unlike us unsubtle Brits.

RowerB
16-05-2004, 23:56
The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is destabilising and it's a terrible that the US isn't more even-handed about it.
You got that bit right in your post, simon, but your use of the “double standards” arguments, just made you look stupid.

The fact is, the Jewish community have the American political system in their pocket and it would be political suicide, for any American politician, to disobey an instruction from Israel.

transcend
17-05-2004, 00:57
I'd like to see the hyperbole and exaggeration stop now, comrades. Not that I'm picking on you RowerB, but for example - OF COURSE THE JEWISH LOBBY IS IMPORTANT IN THE US. HELLLLOOOOO!!!!!!!! But all this talk of Washington taking instructions from Israel, that is the kind of propaganda that can end with people suggesting that the Jews are actually a race of inhuman lizards seeking to take over the world (yes, I kid you not - you may not have heard of David Icke, but I have) or some subhuman vermin (and you know perfectly well what I'm referring to now). This kind of talk is precisely what's led to the level of political debate in the media that we currently have to suffer.

Mossopp
17-05-2004, 01:04
We're all treading on very dangerous ground here. :(

transcend
17-05-2004, 01:07
You're right Mossopp but damn, this is the first time I've ever felt genuinely angry over what's being put out on the forum.

LenochkaO
17-05-2004, 01:07
I bet you wouldn't have supported overthrowing the Taliban before 9/11.

Why on earth not? I remember being outraged when I heard about the Taliban's treatment of women, well before 9/11. I think one reason why people are so opposed to the Dubya and Tony show in Iraq is all the fudging and lies that have been used to justify this little adventure. It makes it look like they've got something to hide and makes people feel distinctly uncomfortable about supporting them.

simon
17-05-2004, 01:28
I wasn't addressing you Lenochka, I was addressing haku's view that what dictatorships do to their own people is nothing for us to bother about.

By the way, I always thought that the strongest argument for the war was to liberate Iraq from Saddam and that the argument of imminent WMD attack was weak.

haku
17-05-2004, 04:22
So you are quite open about having double standards. Saddam can torture people and its none of your business, but if the Americans do it, then you're outraged.
You purposely missed my point instead of addressing it. Of course i have double standards in this area! I expect nothing from a dictator, i expect a lot from a democratically elected government. Is this so hard to understand that i expect better from a democracy than a dictatorship?


The idea that what happens in other countries is none of our business and we should only intervene when our own interests are directly threatened is not morality, it's selfishness dressed up as a moral principle.
What a wonderful defence of liberty, equality and fraternity! I think that morally, it is our concern. I think that human rights are more important than state sovereignty.
Where's the limit? Who is going to decide which countries have to be "liberated" and which countries are allowed to "liberate" others? The Soviet Union claimed that they were liberating the Baltic States, China claimed that they were liberating Tibet, Indonesia claimed that they were liberating Timor. You're acting like this "right" to intervene in other countries can only be used in a good way, a democracy overthrowing a dictator. That sounds nice on paper but this right can be used by any country, a powerful dictatorship might use that same right to get rid of an annoying little democracy. Maybe China will "liberate" Taiwan tomorrow? Who's going to stop them?
In fact this argument can be used by any country that wants to invade a neighbor.

As for your mockery of the French motto, what can i say, we did try to export the values of the French Revolution 200 years ago... "All men are born free and equal"... We tried to spread that across Europe but Britain brilliantly defeated us, remember? "All men are born free and equal"... Ironically only the US colonies agreed with us on that at the time. We learned the hard way that you can't impose those values by force on other peoples, and it's Britain which taught us that.


unlike us unsubtle Brits.
Brits? Where did that come from? I never mentioned Britain in any of my posts. I have nothing against Britain, i like Britain. I like to think of myself as an Anglo-Norman actually. The treaty of Formigny in 1450 that saw the annexation of the duchy of Normandy by the French is probably the worst day of our history. The French claimed at the time that they were liberating us from the English oppression... yeah right! Normandy conquered England, not the other way around! (Stupid frogs)
Anyway, i wish the ducal crown of Normandy were still linked to the royal Crown of England and that we had remained an autonomous duchy.

LenochkaO
17-05-2004, 04:26
I wasn't addressing you Lenochka, I was addressing haku's view that what dictatorships do to their own people is nothing for us to bother about.

Sorry, must avoid skim-reading.

By the way, I always thought that the strongest argument for the war was to liberate Iraq from Saddam and that the argument of imminent WMD attack was weak.

It's not so much what they've done as the way they've done it that's galled most people, I think. Ah well, nowt we can do about it now (or even then).

Personally, I think Kim Jong-Il's just as big a bastard, but you don't find much willingness to go in all guns blazing there because a) he's probably got nuclear weapons; and b) there's no oil in the DPRK. Plus there are two permanent members of the UN security council in the immediate vicinity, with two other major economies also nearby, who might all get rather upset if things went atomic here. You can bet your life they wouldn't have gone into Iraq if they'd thought Saddam had any serious weapons...

Lux
17-05-2004, 05:36
does any of the current discussion have to do with tatu or ivan?

haku
17-05-2004, 05:44
does any of the current discussion have to do with tatu or ivan?
It has to do with the subject of Ivan's new video which is enough to be on topic.

dollparts3000
17-05-2004, 08:29
Everyone criticizes the US but the US has been there so many times to fight wars against evil dictators.

1. They fought in World War II
Where was France? Where was most of those other European countries? Where? Most were allied with Hitler or gave into him so easily (i.e. France)
2. The US fought against genocide in 1990
3. The US is now fighting the war against terrorism

How are most European countries fighting against terrorism????
I don't hear many of their efforts.
Russia does hardly anything.

These countries are cowardly or don't have any drive.

Life is bad for most people who live in the arab world. There is rape rooms, torture, the fear of getting kidnapped and women have no rights and are repeatedly raped, and abused and have acid thrown on them.

If people in the middle east would stand up against their goverment and revolt in a number that equals more than 30% of the population (not just the Shiites) than the US wouldn't have to interfere and attempt to STOP TERRORISM.

The French revolted against their government in the French Revolution and so did the British. The Arab world is a fucking mess full of people who want to destroy western ideals and values and carry out Jihad. Read the fucking Quaran before you talk out of ignorance. Google it. I dare you. Type Jihad and the Quaran or Koran in google and see what you get. I'm not going to do your research for you.


The U.S. is strong and fights against evil dictators and oppression. That is a good thing.

And Israel is fighting to exist. It is a small small country in the sea of the arab world. It is a tiny dot on a map. It faces terrorism and suicide bombers everyday. Ofcourse Israel fights back. If it didn't fight back, it wouldn't exist. It is the ONLY DEMOCRACY in the whole of the middle east!

Sometimes I think the people who defend terrorism and terrorists should get a dose of reality. Buy a plane ticket and visit the Arab world. Go to Saudi Arabia or any other Arab country. Go to the Palestinian territory and wear an American or British flag or just speak English.

What do you think life is like there? Can you walk down the streets free and safe? Can women walk down the streets freely?

Visit a prison. Swear against a political party in an Arab Country. Where do you think you will end up? Dead or in jail.

Swear in Israel or America or Spain against their governments, critize George Bush, what happens to you? Do you go to prison? Do you get tortured like you would in Arab country. Is your family kidnapped?

Most likely not.

That is the difference between a democracy like the U.S., Britain, Israel, and Spain. That is the beauty of free countries and free democracies. Maybe one day you will learn to appreciate this fact.

and for the person who said I was brainwashed, get a life and think outside you leftist European mentality where all people are good at heart. The world isn't a perfect place and not all people are good. Attend a meeting for Jihad with an Arabic translator. There is evil in this world and evil should be stopped. Go to an Arab country and then tell me that life is good there. I don't think you could. Your tongue would probably be cut off before you could say it.

simon
17-05-2004, 09:56
You purposely missed my point instead of addressing it. Of course i have double standards in this area! I expect nothing from a dictator, i expect a lot from a democratically elected government. Is this so hard to understand that i expect better from a democracy than a dictatorship?

I understood it perfectly. I said you were guilty of double standards to criticise democracies more than you criticise dictatorships and you admit it.

Where's the limit? Who is going to decide which countries have to be "liberated" and which countries are allowed to "liberate" others? The Soviet Union claimed that they were liberating the Baltic States, China claimed that they were liberating Tibet, Indonesia claimed that they were liberating Timor. You're acting like this "right" to intervene in other countries can only be used in a good way, a democracy overthrowing a dictator. That sounds nice on paper but this right can be used by any country, a powerful dictatorship might use that same right to get rid of an annoying little democracy. Maybe China will "liberate" Taiwan tomorrow? Who's going to stop them?
In fact this argument can be used by any country that wants to invade a neighbor.

The difference is surely rather obvious. China wouldn't be 'liberating' Taiwan if it invaded and overthrew Taiwan's democratic government. America was liberating Iraq when it invaded and overthrew Saddam's dictatorship. A democracy can liberate a dictatorship, a dictatorship can't liberate a democracy. Is that so hard to understand? The world understood the difference when Nato liberated Kosovo.

As for your mockery of the French motto, what can i say, we did try to export the values of the French Revolution 200 years ago... "All men are born free and equal"... We tried to spread that across Europe but Britain brilliantly defeated us, remember? "All men are born free and equal"... Ironically only the US colonies agreed with us on that at the time. We learned the hard way that you can't impose those values by force on other peoples, and it's Britain which taught us that.

It wasn't attempting to spread the values of liberty, equality and fraternity that backfired - it was later going back and imposing Napoleon's family as the kings and queens of Europe. I know that it is very difficult to spread democratic ideas to people who aren't ready for them, but most Iraqis say they want democracy. Twenty years ago, almost nobody outside Western Europe and North America had democracy and many people said the rest of the world wasn't ready for it. Now there is democracy across Europe, Latin America, most of Africa and much of Asia. Maybe something makes Iraqi Arabs unable to handle it, even though they say they want it (the Kurds have had it for several years). But it's surely a bit patronising to just assume that people who don't yet have democracy are too backward for it.

haku
17-05-2004, 12:07
dollparts3000, you think that Arabs are evil, full of hatred, and that the Koran is only a call for Jihad... So why do you want to liberate them? If this is how you see them, how do you expect them to become democrats? What is your plan exactly, invade them and then what? Do you think they should be taught another version of the Koran, or maybe they should be christianized?
There are a few people who live in Arab countries on this forum, i'm sure they'll be glad to know what you intend to do with them (assuming they survive the liberation of course).

As for me being a leftist, that's laughable. I just said in my previous post that i wished Normandy was still a duchy and you think i'm a leftist? lol In reality i'm close to untraliberalism.


Anyway, i don't see why you and simon are so eager to counter my morally deficient views, your point of view has won on the ground! The war has started and it's not ending anytime soon.
Like i said several times, i did believe, like you do, that a general conflict between the West and Muslim countries was going to happen during this century. I think that the way it has started is a strategic mistake and that the price it's going to cost us is so high that the victory will smell like defeat. But it *has* started, there's no going back. Just be happy that your point of view has won and that mine has lost.

Now, take a good look at the enemy, 40 countries with 1 billion inhabitants, nuclear capabilities, and religious fanaticism... taking over the Soviet Union would have been a piece of cake compared to that.
It's gonna be an interesting century.

transcend
17-05-2004, 13:10
Which reminds me of the Confucian curse, "May you live in interesting times!"

kr0k0
17-05-2004, 16:55
While Yulia is pregnant a little talk about politics, about what happened eons ago, rise the level of adrenaline. And all this because of Shapovalov :coctail:

and a deep thought :) : if americans will leave the Earth and move on Mars it will be a global "peace and harmonie" on Earth.

Dent
18-05-2004, 04:19
and a deep thought :) : if americans will leave the Earth and move on Mars it will be a global "peace and harmonie" on Earth.

If US stupid patriots and brainwashed people will leave the Earth.... ;) Oh! and add the Zionists fascists from Israel and amen brother :)

Lux
18-05-2004, 05:02
all of you bashers of Americans, do you know any? i am american. do you hate me? :lol: :rolleyes: you people need to open your friggin minds.

Bitty2002
18-05-2004, 05:10
I don't know if you guys are being serious, but this really hurts. America is where I was born and bred. I have been given a good life and because of that I love my country. I hate no country and wish no country harm. How can all of you be so hateful? You generalize about my entire country, like none of us matter, you wish us to be vanquished, sent to Mars? I live here, that includes me. I am a person, a person with feelings, hopes, dreams, etc. I love to learn about other countries and I respect the struggles and hardships they have encountered. Rather than hating, I try to understand. Yes, my country does evil things...but can anyone provide a country that has never done evil things? Jews, Muslims, Gypsies, or Poles, must I go on, have been persecuted and killed in every country. No country is perfect, because humanity isn't perfect. America is no exception and we certainly aren't the root or epitome of evil. And anyone who would like to argue that we are, I would like to have some evidence on things that we have done that every other country has not, in some way, done the same horrible things. That doesn't make it right. The entire world is corrupt. We can't just look for a scapegoat in America and hate everyone there.

Do you realize how much you all scare me? I feel like the world hates me for where I was born. Just as all of you, I didn't choose my nationality. I also don't hate my nationality. I feel afraid to go to other countries because of this deep hatred so many of you seem to have. You want so badly to put that hatred somewhere. I may not agree with Bush or my government at times, but I don't hate my country. I can't help that my two choices for president are two people I dislike. Does that mean I should be punished for loving my country? I don't spout that we are better, because we aren't. But we also aren't worse.

I just wish you guys wouldn't blindly bash an entire nation full of people with different backgrounds, beliefs, dreams, etc. How can you hate or wish vanquished an entire people? It is bordering on a Hitler mentality and that scares me. And don't tell me that it isn't prejudice, because it clearly is. You are judging an entire nation because of a few officials who govern it. Did everyone is Russia love Stalin's decisions? Do all Russians deserve to be hated for being born and bred in Russia and for loving their country? Do all people in France hate Jews? Because I have read about a lot of Anti-Semitism there. Should I judge that all French people hate Jews? Of course not.

So please, try and understand where to focus your dislike, not on a nation but certain ideals held by certain people. Don't hate so much. It is precisely that hatred that makes this world so shitty.

EDIT: I thought I would add, because it seems to be so vital to Haku and others...but the US is NOT a democracy. I know it is a big surprise, because that is what they call it. A democracy is ruled by its people. The US is not ruled by its people. We are given candidates to represent the people. I have two people to choose between, Kerry, who I worry about because he seems wishy-washy and Bush, need I even go there since all of you hate him. America is a sort of Republic. A few hundred people run our country and make decisions. Most of which have "safe seats" and stay in the system for years and years. Honestly, the huge majority of Americans do not even know who the hell runs our country. Most don't vote and certainly can't name people. Bush is just a public figure. He is not all powerful. There are a hundred faceless people making decisions behind him. Believe me, when they decided to torture prisoners of war or invade Iraq, they didn't send me a letter asking for my vote in the matter. In fact, I was too young to vote for a president when Bush was elected anyway. Not much I can do. I am a helpless bystander, with little power.

And Haku, terrorist probably do not consider themselves terrorists, but instead they are fighting for what they believe to be a good cause. That is generally how everyone views what they do. When the Cossacks invaded Poland, they saw it as rightful. They had been mistreated for years. They were tired of it. But the Jews that were slaughtered as the Cossacks swept through Poland wouldn't call it that. To them the Cossacks were murders. It is all in how you look at it, Haku. NONE of this, whether by terrorists or Bush is acceptable. Who cares what you call it. I don't think anyone is stupid enough to believe that the US is pristine and perfect. We do evil things, hell I don't thank any American lives without feeling the pain of caused by slavery and segregation. We KNOW that our "democracy" isn't perfect. The only thing we can say is that we have been abused by our government relatively less than some countries. That isn't exactly something to be proud of, but... You should have seen the riots and protests here when we went to war. We aren't proud that prisoners were abused. Then again, what is it you say? It is expected. It is war. Wow, seriously, if you want to see HORRIBLE acts upon humanity, look at war. Rape, plunder, murder, it has been present in EVERY war there EVER was. Believe me, no one here is happy or proud about it, its shameful.

transcend
18-05-2004, 09:56
It's good to see you're still around too, Bitty - I'm quietly surprised that so many of the old crew are still present here, if not actually doing much posting. I'm sorry you've been so hurt by the things some people have said - but believe me, not ALL of us hate the US by any means, and I hope our posts have clearly demonstrated that.

LenochkaO
18-05-2004, 16:42
I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I'm more than capable of drawing a distinction between the US govt and the population at large, and I apologise if anything I've said came across as slagging the US people off. That's the last thing I'd want - I have some v.good American friends. I can sympathise with Bitty's comment that she doesn't like either candidate in the election - I didn't vote in the last British general election because I despise Tony and his cronies, think the Lib-Dems are too wishy-washy and couldn't bring myself to vote Tory. Hah! And they wonder why there's a low turnout at election time...

no matter who you vote for, the government always gets in </fed up with politicians of every hue>

Khartoun2004
19-05-2004, 00:22
We KNOW that our "democracy" isn't perfect. The only thing we can say is that we have been abused by our government relatively less than some countries. That isn't exactly something to be proud of, but... You should have seen the riots and protests here when we went to war. We aren't proud that prisoners were abused. Then again, what is it you say? It is expected. It is war. Wow, seriously, if you want to see HORRIBLE acts upon humanity, look at war. Rape, plunder, murder, it has been present in EVERY war there EVER was. Believe me, no one here is happy or proud about it, its shameful.

Well said Bitty. unfortunately the US gov't does not have a "vote of no confidence" in our president. When the president is elected we're stuck with them for at least four years unless they are impeached, killed or resign. 2004 is an election year. If you read the polls most Americans are not happy with the way Iraq is being handled and Bush's approval rating drops every day.

I was shocked and furious when I heard about the treatment of Iraqi prisioners. It is totally un-American and it goes against every principle this country was founded on. Bitty is right, you cannot judge an entire country for the actions of a select few individuals. If you want something or someone to blame, Blame the hanging chads in Florida and the judges of the Supreme Court that put Bush into office. It's quite obvious to me from dicussions on this forum that whoever is elected president will have their work cut out for them if they wish to repair world opinion of this country.

As my mom always reminds me, "We are the loyal opposition." I love my country, frankly I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. My family, friends and life are here in the US. It's the only place I've ever lived. Sure I've been to Canada, but it isn't like the US. No other place on Earth is like the US, and no other country would feel quite like home to me.

Side note... I am a German Jew. My family was murder by the Nazi in WWII. However this does not mean I hate all Germans. I hate Hitler and he's dead. Why blame everyone else for the ravings of a mad man who found a loop hole in the constitution? *cough*Bush did the same thing*cough*

bpro50
19-05-2004, 04:01
. . .
A man got his head cut off on t.v. for fuck sake! He didn't even get a trial and he wasn't even a soldiers!!! He was an innocent civilian.
They cut off your hands for stealing there.
Arabs have ripped Christians and jews apart in the street with their bare hands. (That Christian masacre)
It is legally acceptable to stone women to death.
A person can be kidnapped and put in prison for no reason.
A woman who only looks at another man while married may be stoned to death.
His family can be tortured for no reason
A family can strap their kid down to the table (legally) and genitally mutilate her without and drugs.
In Iraq, there were legal rape rooms where women and children were raped.
There are numerous other tortures performed there like drowning where an arabic guard in prison shoved a hose down a prisoners throat and drowned him.
The fatwa for Jihad calls for the death of all non-muslims including non-religious muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindu's etc. etc. It is in the Koran.
The Koran encourages muslims to seek out the death of all non-muslims however there are moderate muslims who don't take this part of the Koran so seriously. I know some moderate muslims who aren't hateful but they are aware that the Koran calls for such an act. If you don't believe me, type: Jihad and Koran or Quaran in google.com

If Shapalov is trying to promote terrorism, he is a loser and a sick fuck
Tatu had something positive to say.
This is just sick and disgusting.

Dollparts3000, you are one awesome young lady. You've done your homework and I really am enlightened by your words. The U.S. soldiers made a terrible mistake and justice will be served but nothing I have read can be compared with the horror of taking an innocent young man and cutting his head off in the name of Allah. God forbid! Their glory is the world's shame. If the nation of Iraq would seize this opportunity they could become one of the most prosperous and successful countries in the Middle East. Even from a pragmatist point of views, how many countries would offer their conquered foes the opportunity to establish their own Government with elected officials from their own populace? Within the rules of engagement, the U.S, has conquered Iraq. If we chose to, we could subjugate their people and exploit all of their natural resources and send the money home to the U.S. Does it seem strange to any of the enemies of the U.S. that we don't do just that? If we are truly as evil as the propaganda would have us all believe, why wouldn't we just take everything that we want. Why do we work to re-establish a new government capable of managing their own affairs. Look at Germany, Japan, South Korea and other countries of the world that have benefitted from their own sovereignty by working together with the U.S. instead of against us. I do believe there were noble reasons why we stepped into Iraq when we did. At one time, Iraq had the third most powerful Army in the world under Saddam Hussiem. Only one problem, Saddam had the character profile of another Hitler coming into history. History will never reveal the "Hitlers" that we have prevented by proactively removing them from influence. It only records the ones we missed.

Dent
19-05-2004, 05:16
I don't know if you guys are being serious, but this really hurts. America is where I was born and bred. I have been given a good life and because of that I love my country. I hate no country and wish no country harm. How can all of you be so hateful?

can i answer that question just before we get closed? ;)

First of all sorry, im among the US hater dudes :laugh: so if u want to treat this as a "Insight of a hate mind", well u may treat, so if i somehow offend you, sorry. But also think the other side too, Arabs also dont like to have them generalized and called evil and mean people, the scum of the unverse, because of the action of small groups and the government that controls them.

I will tell my opinion based on facts that i saw and lived.

What happens is that the why of the generalization of the hate occurs because of your government, right, but ALSO because of your society. Not in a general, but most of the people and unfortunatelly thats what will count. The way they think towards other nations, the way they treat foreigners, this all increases the hate to your people.

But that happens on all places right. But most of it are like 'isolated cases' something like 1 or 2 in 10 will think like that. But for me, what happened was the opposite. When i had the chance to go there and see how they are, so i could stop with some of my hates, it just increased even more! The way i was treated it is to be forgotten but even a cockcroach has a better treatment. So as for me, i hate the kind of people i found there for a personal reason. But also for political reasons.
Youre mostly hated because of your actuation on foreign countries, some of that actuation that your country shouldt even interfere, and also your country disrespects all kind of international laws, laws that they even say to defend so proudly. But whats unfortunate is that the big majority of the people support this actions! For me I only want the complete eradication of those ridiculous superpatriots (arrogant and xenophobists :bebebe: ) and the politicians (well... politicians) of the US and israel ;) . Taking out these bad guys, the world will live in peace. But the people that support these guys, will think the way these guys think and they will vote on guys like Bush, Sharon, etc.... and this ones will keep the brainwashing of the population and getting more and more support :(

Although i dont guilt US people for ellecting Bush, i dont consider that he was ellected.

But this is some of the ways that lead a person to hate a country . I distinguish the yanks i hate from the ones who are victims of their leaders, not because theyre born there. But unfortunately, theyre so much..... :(

bpro50
19-05-2004, 06:15
Wow, what a display of ignorance dollparts3000, thanks for sharing your views on geopolitics, "Arabs are evil!", that's deep...

Thanks to Haku, all of the facts are in:

I'm not going to waste my time replying in detail because you've obviously been totally brainwashed by US propaganda.

Haku, who set you free so that you are not influenced by any propaganda? What makes your view superior to anyone else's? Is it alway correct, I don't think so.


The Arab world has been a center of civilization for centuries, many scientific discoveries were made by Arab scientists during the Middle Ages. The Arab world is now going through some dark ages, it happens to every civilizations.

The world has benefitted by the contributions from the Arabic world but I wouldn't begin to compare contributions with modern day contributions from the west. That would be absurd. The center of the world has been somewhere other than the middle east for the past 1100 years. BTW - what is your favorite Arabic scientific discovery? Want to compare that with Neal Bohr's work with physics.


The root of most problems in the Middle East is the unconditional support of the US to Israeli policy and the oppression of Palestinian Arabs. If the US had not supported this policy, the world would be a more peaceful place today.

I can understand your hatred toward Israel, it is not uncommon. But, without the influence and presence of the U.S., do you not understand the destructive capability of Israel. They are a nuclear power. Push them into a corner without any geopolitical balance from the U.S. and our friends in the Middle East will become vapor.


An American was decapitated by Arab terrorists...
At least 10 Iraqis died while being "interrogated" by US soldiers.

This is a new one. I haven't heard about the Iraqis that died during interrogation. Do you have more information. Nevertheless, I don't hear of anyone in the U.S. shouting praises to God because we killed an Iraqi man or woman during imprisonment. That is not our character as a nation. We don't think like that.



A thousand innocent civilians died in the World Trade Center attack...
At least 5 thousands innocent Iraqi civilians died because of US bombings during the invasion of Iraq.

We lost 3500 live in the World Trade Center attack not 1000. I guess you believe that hijacking an Airline and killing innnocent passengers is equivalent to our invasion of Iraq. I can see why you think that.

One last thing... Iran is not an Arab country, Iranians are Persians and part of the Indo-European family. All European and Indian people (with a few exceptions like Finns, Hungarians, or Dravidians) as well as their languages are all descendants of an ancient people that lived in northern Iran 12 thousand years ago. Persians are direct descendants of that ancient people and not at all related to Arabs, either ethnically or linguistically.

One last thing, I think Dollparts was referring to the Islamic faith as being the link between Iran and the rest of the Arabic world. That is the link. But your information about Persian history is useful input.

All these things said, the Middle East is a volatile and dangerous place right now as it has been for the past 6000 years in my opinion. I have said it before and I still believe that taking Saddam out was the best decision for Iraq and for the Middle East. Time will tell. I personally believe that Saddam at one time represented the greatest threat to any long term plan for peace in the Middle East. He was a tyrant and he had the third largest Army in the world. His ultimate goal was destruction of Israel and unity among all Arab nations [with Saddam as the leader]. He is gone and we have the difficult task of forming some kiind of government where the Iraqis can govern themselves. I hope that the Iraqis go the way of Japan, Korea or Germany and become a success story but I am very glad that Saddam is gone. The U.S. made these decisions and I believe that in time they will prove to be the best for stability in the Middle East. That's my opinion.

spyretto
19-05-2004, 06:36
Bitty, don't take all that too seriously. A person who has not the full picture will generalise. Terrorism has to be stopped before something bigger happens.
I don't like many things in America too but I try to see the full picture. Generations of potential terrorists are born everyday. This has got to stop.

RowerB
19-05-2004, 08:12
The USA is a bit selective as far as terrorism is concerned.
Soon after Blair aligned himself with Bush, in the war of terrorism in 2001, the IRA miraculously announced, they were going to decommission their arms. To me, this was part of a deal Blair had with Bush. See:- http://members.aol.com/linguapress/ulster.htm

I don’t think Bush is the problem. It’s the USA.
OF COURSE THE JEWISH LOBBY IS IMPORTANT IN THE US. HELLLLOOOOO!!!!!!!!

In Autumn 2001, Bush seemed to be serious about finding solution to the Israel / Palestine problem. Then Israel had to angrily remind him, that they told the US what to do, not the other way round. A few days later, with the peace plan forgotten, the US were once again using the veto at the UN.

I stand by what I said, Transcend.

On an individual level, the Americans I meet from the local air-bases, are much the same as anyone else.

Bitty2002
19-05-2004, 08:21
Spyretto - I know...it's just...I dunno, it hurts. It's like having a brother that has done bad things and because of that everyone hates him. I can understand people being upset, but I can't help but feel sad and helpless. Because like a brother, I love my country and it scares and hurts me to think so many people hate it. But it has done hurtful things, but damn it, so have all the other brothers, lol. I don't like people picking on my brother, :( And I really don't like how arrogant and holier than thou some people can sound, as if their country is perfect. I just don't think people realize how hurtful the things they say can be. They are angry and they want to hate, but all that hatred does is breed more hatred and violence. That scares me.

But I agree, terrorism in all its forms, whether under the mask of religion, nationality, or pride, needs to stop. Hatred needs to stop. And the first step isn't to hate the US. It isn't the root of all evil, that evil lies in man, no matter where he lives. About the generalizations...that is what is scary. People DO generalize and they often believe in those generalizations, and that leads to prejudice and a universal hatred of all that generalization entails. I am not saying anyone on here is like that, but that is was generalizations spawn. But, unforetunately, I know that generalizations cannot be avoided.

Dent - I never said Arabs liked to be generalized. I do not hold the opinion that all Arabs are evil. In fact, I would even go so far as to say that most Americans do not have this view. That is the point. However miguided it may be, most of those in support of the war believe that there are evil people in power over there, oppressing those Arabs who are not. If we believed they were all evil, it wouldn't be an attempt to reorganize the government, but to exterminate. Perhaps that is what you believe my governement is doing, and perhaps they are, but that isn't what, in my opinion, most Americans view as the motive. Like I said, maybe we are being lied to. Maybe we are being fed false propaganda, telling us all how much good we are doing over there, helping the Arabs who are being oppressed by evil.

I am sorry your visit here was not pleasant. But I have always heard different opinions. Maybe you just had bad luck? Maybe where you chose to go was a nest of a political leaning you did not agree with, say you are liberal and you visited a very conservative place, visa versa. Or, don't take this the wrong way, because I do not know you or how you act or your personality, but...could it maybe be because you are slightly abrupt or in your face? Maybe, for whatever reason, your personality specifically just didn't sit well with the majority of people you met here. Or I guess we are all assholes. *shrugs*

transcend - Yes, I am still around. There isn't much to post about...but this really got my girlfriend worked up. She was so emotional and couldn't reply. So I read and it pained me to read what people were saying too. I had to reply. And believe me, I know not everyone hates US. It is just all I hear about on the news anymore, about how much people hate the US and how even everyone living here hates Bush and his policies. But who could know that 9/11 would happen and that he would charge off to war? Life sucks sometimes, but hatred doesn't solve anything, right?

Khartoun2004 - I was also shocked and infuriated by the prisoners treatment. I think most people are. I respect and support our military, because they put themselves in danger for our sake...BUT, I don't think the military is the best place. It breeds mob mentality, aggression and removes the fear of punishment. Sick passions seem to come out of soldiers when they are all grouped together or in war sometimes. Hell, what irritates me is that, some people who are SUPPOSED to go to jail are instead kept out of jail by joining the military! Such is the case with my cousin. He's a ocmplete jackass who totally deserves to be in jail, but the judge gave him a deal and now he is in the Navy. I don't even want to think of the atrocities he may be doing there. Grrr.

LenochkaO - Don't worry, as long as people say things objectively, with careful words, where they are just stating opinions on specific policies they dislike, that is fine. It is when people step so far as to wish an entire people to be banished from earth that I have a problem.

haku
19-05-2004, 12:47
All superpowers are always feared, sometimes hated, it comes with the status. Because other countries are jealous (especially when they used to be superpowers themselves). Because other countries know that whatever they think or say, the superpowers will do what they want and there's nothing they can do about it. Because other countries realize that the superpowers have enough military power to wipe them out overnight.
I know that some Americans are upset that so many people don't like them but don't be, this very fact only shows that you country is indeed the most powerful country in the world. Be glad to live there and not elsewhere, what other people think about you has little value compared to the fact of being a citizen of the most powerful country in the world. And most importantly, what other people think of the US is ultimately useless since it will have no consequences on what the US will do and achieve... you have the power, they only have words.


the nation of IraqThere is no nation of Iraq, it's a colonial creation. The country is probably going to fall into civil war. The Shiite south will become an islamic republic allied to Iran, the sharia has already been reestablished in some parts of the Shiite region and women have to cover themselves. The Sunnite region will try to become independent as well but the Shiites outnumber them and they will probably control that region as well (including Bagdad). As for the Kurdish north, it's already de facto independent and they are helping Kurdish terrorists (or resistants, it depends if you're pro-Turk or not) to fight the Turkish army.


Iraq had the third most powerful Army in the world under Saddam HusseinThat's a myth. Let's say that the two most powerful armies were the USA and the USSR/Russia. Are we to believe that China or India with both nuclear capabilities and millions of soldiers were less powerful than Iraq? And what about Britain or even Israel which actually defeated the Iraqi army in a previous war? At best Iraq had the second most powerful army in the Middle East after Israel.
During the first Iraqi war, it only took 3 months to the USA to wipe out the Iraqi army (it's estimated that about 150,000 Iraqi soldiers died during the first Iraqi war, which is a reasonable number since 300,000 died during the Iraq/Iran war.), proof that this army was not so powerful.
Western countries knew that very well, they are the ones that had armed and financed this army to contain the Shiite revolution coming from Iran.


who set you free so that you are not influenced by any propaganda?I'm not, i try to watch American, British, French, and Arab channels to get a more even view, which probably means i'm getting propaganda from all sides, but at least i'm getting more than one view. From what i've seen on American channels, most Americans still believe that the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqis... who told them that?


The world has benefitted by the contributions from the Arabic world but I wouldn't begin to compare contributions with modern day contributions from the west.My point was not to compare modern Western scientists with Middle Ages Arab scientists. I just wanted to say that the Arab civilization is not evil in essence.


I haven't heard about the Iraqis that died during interrogation.It was mentioned on the BBC, a CIA "interrogator" is under investigation for several deaths, not everyone knows when to stop torture.

piojita
19-05-2004, 14:08
everyone who critize the crimes comitted by the US do it because they hate all americans. It's like with Israel, everyone who defends the palestinians human rights are antisemites :rolleyes:

I don't see why people are surprised about the torture of iraqui prisoners. We are talking about the country who "installed" dictators in a whole continent, and tought the military how to torture the prisoners (people who fought for democracy). People in latinamerica have known this for a long time, there are a lot of documentation about these CIA "training camps". This is only one example, and it came to my mind because a person close to me was tortured in one of these concentration camps and he even met one CIA agent who was supervising the whole thing.
Someone told me a CIA agent told a newspaper that installing Saddam was his favourite coup he had participated in as an agent.
I'm guessing the american people don't know anything about this, that's why they are surprised that people critize (or even hate) the US. I can imagine it must be odd to see yourself as "liberators" when your country represents the contrary to people all around the world and you don't even get why :confused:

spyretto
19-05-2004, 16:51
The solution can not be found by invading muslim countries - even governed by bloodthirsty and ruthless dictators - but indentifying these pots of terror and removing them. I expect that the Americans wanted to overthrow Saddam to open up their possibilities of crushing the terrorist network and the wmd were just a gimmick?
The ultimate solution will be found by sorting out the situation in the Middle East though. Unless this is tackled the horror will continue. And the Americans don't seem to be as motivated in finding a peaceful solution there.

Respect for international law by the US is welcome too. Though you can not equate the US regime with those terrorists, that's quite rediculous. ( or even with some Islamic regimes, for that matter )

Less than half of the world's population comprises of Muslims, Americans and Jews. Well, I just hope they show some respect for the other half and try to put a stop to this madness.

luxxi
19-05-2004, 17:59
With the benefit of hindsight. I bet you wouldn't have supported overthrowing the Taliban before 9/11.


Did you know that there was a country that was very close toinvading Talibn-ruled Afghansitan, overthrowing them and destroy Al Qaeda? Care to guess which country was it? And care to guess which country was at the same time negotiating with Taliban to make a pipeline through Afghansitan to Pakistan?

:newyear:

haku
19-05-2004, 18:55
And I really don't like how arrogant and holier than thou some people can sound, as if their country is perfect. I just don't think people realize how hurtful the things they say can be. They are angry and they want to hate, but all that hatred does is breed more hatred and violence.

I just wanted to add that i don't hate the US or the US people. I disagree with the foreign policy of its current administration which does not equate to hating a people. I have American friends to whom i talk regularly, i don't hate them, that's absurd. And being a liberal, i admire the economy of the US.

And just to put things in perspective, i have seen that French products are boycotted in American stores, American products are not boycotted here; i have seen Americans pouring French wine in the gutter, i haven't seen anyone throwing away Coca-Cola here; things with "French" in their name have been renamed "Liberty" something, nobody here has asked that the "sauce américaine" or the "homard à l'américaine" be renamed. Not to mention the dozens of mean jokes about French people that i've seen in American shows. Who hates who?

Finally, i don't believe that my country is perfect, there are a lot of things i'm not happy with, and to take a parallel, we have a lot of military scattered in Western Africa and i don't agree with that at all. Those countries have been independent for 50 years and we should leave them alone.

volkotina
19-05-2004, 18:56
haku From what i've seen on American channels, most Americans still believe that the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqis... who told them that?

I do not know what American channels you are watching, but I will say that I am not a big fan of the media in this country. On the one hand, there are the ultra-conservative stations and on the other the ultra-liberal. I feel as if most promote and report stories with whatever sentiment they feel. It does not seem to be a strong indicator of what most Americans feel. Most of the people I know, conservative and liberal alike, cannot be summed up by a potentially biased news report or poll. And I have to think that we are not the only country to have both our media and government spin their own beliefs into what MOST of their constituents think or feel. And I can say this as well, I do not know most Americans but of the ones I do know, they are very well aware that the hijackers were not from Iraq.


piojita everyone who critize the crimes comitted by the US do it because they hate all americans. It's like with Israel, everyone who defends the palestinians human rights are antisemites

As for the sarcasm, I do not believe Bitty2002 ever said or implied that. But there are people who do feel that way and when someone says the world would be a better place if Americans were on Mars, then, you know, that IS lumping ALL Americans into ONE group.

You know, I love my country, but I do not blindly believe what I am told. Yes, we have done bad things and yes, we will continue to. Any country that has a government run by man will be corrupt. There is no perfect system. I wish that we always did good and never entertained evil, but I would be foolish to think that the truth. Maybe I should feel lucky to be from a country that is a super power and not worry about what others think or feel about us, but I do. Not just for the safety of myself and my loved ones, but for future generations.

Bitty2002
19-05-2004, 19:09
And just to put things in perspective, i have seen that French products are boycotted in American stores, American products are not boycotted here; i have seen Americans pouring French wine in the gutter, i haven't seen anyone throwing away Coca-Cola here; things with "French" in their name have been renamed "Liberty" something, nobody here has asked that the "sauce américaine" or the "homard à l'américaine" be renamed. Not to mention the dozens of mean jokes about French people that i've seen in American shows. Who hates who?

Okay all of that was laughable and ridiculous. It was started by a bunch of retarded ultra-conservatives. I would say that the majority of people thought that was the stupidest, most immature thing ever. Not to mention that was like a year ago. I haven't seen anything boycotted in person. The only mention of this I got was from the ultra-conservative news, which pisses me off to no end everytime I turn to it. About the mean jokes, lol, those won't go away. There are mean jokes about everyone. Sure, for awhile there, because there was greater support for war back then, some people held the opinion that some French people were cowardly. That is immature of course. And there was no changing in the names of things. Silly people only siad it should be. Which of course, other people rolled their eyes at and pointed out at their idiocy, sense half the things called "french" this or that aren't even orginated from France. Why do you think that was so highly reported in the news? Because it was the most DUMBASS shit ever.

Have you ever thought that maybe the sources of news or America's opinions are being filtered through A) our shitty news and B) the news of other countries which have their own propaganda. Nothing is really honest there. I at least live here and have had the opportunity to mingle with a good number of Americans and I can tell you that most are not stupid enough to thinkt he Iraq's were responsible for 9/11 adn they also aren't the biggest fans of a lot of the things going on right now. It is just your pockets of ultra-conservatives are what is so heavily concentrated on in the media.

cirrus
19-05-2004, 19:54
Go there. Go to Saudi Arabia or any other country. You would probably meet the same fate of Nicolas Berg or be sold into a brothel
Saudi Arabia? been there. Infact I lived there for a few months with my mother when I was about 5. And while it wasn't the most open and free society, it wasn't total Hell either. Every place has its good and bad people. That goes for the entire Middle East. And who turns on the news and hears about good deeds? No one. It's the terrible, despicable things that get news coverage, and influence people's views of the world.

You've got to go there to know there, my friend.

Lux
19-05-2004, 19:56
goddamn b*sh

spyretto
19-05-2004, 20:36
I've met and talked with fanatics from both sides. The pro-American side supports the war coz Islam is the root of all evil...from the beginning of time. All muslims are sadistic potential terrorirts.
Surprise, surprise...the other side thinks America as the land of the devil. All non muslim Americans are Islam haters and want to see the Arab world reduced to smithereens.

And if you express any disagreement on either side, you're an "ignorant with very limited perspective in live". U should go to Iraq to see the full pcture...and that's all folks.

Now on which side are you on? :bum:

bpro50
19-05-2004, 23:32
It is truly enlightening to hear so many different opinions about world conflict. I just didn't think I would find it here on this forum. I admire and respect the differing opinions. Living in the U.S. all of my life, I have never really known how other societies and individuals feel about us as individuals. I think we all want to be judged on our own merits and not simply because we live in a particular country. I want to consider myself open minded and I want to be a citizen of the world and not just a U.S. citizen.

BTW - I don't know of anyone who thinks that Iraqi citizens were involved in 9/11. I know that several of the perpetrators were Saudi origins.

Again, in spite of all of our differences, I hope we find common ground in the fact that we all want to survive, we all want to live in freedom and we all want to have meaning and purpose in our lives. When someone tries to take that away, or we perceive that they are, people become passionate in their defense of what I call basic rights that each individual should have.

Lux
19-05-2004, 23:53
there are plenty of americans who are antiwar. not enough, though. the liberal americans are very antiwar and myself included. however, not one of the 9/11 hijackers were from Iraq, although they were all from Saudi Arabi, most of them were affiliated with Al-Queda. Al-Queda has establishments set up in many countries, Iraq included, and that was a way for Bush to prop up his democracy and gain better fuel relations. it's been on his agenda to set up a democracy in Iraq before he even became president. call it legacy, call it bastardization, whatever. this was all him and dick cheney's way to gain power control, money, and possibly another term in office. i'm telling you americans, you can't let him be in office again.

simon
20-05-2004, 00:08
Did you know that there was a country that was very close toinvading Talibn-ruled Afghansitan, overthrowing them and destroy Al Qaeda? Care to guess which country was it? And care to guess which country was at the same time negotiating with Taliban to make a pipeline through Afghansitan to Pakistan?

I don't know that Iran was planning to invade, although they were certainly angry with the Taleban for murdering their diplomats. US oil companies were negotiating with the Taleban to build a pipeline through Afghanistan.

The point I had made been making was that the West had been short-sighted not to attack the Taleban and Al Qaeda before 9/11. You know what happened when in 1998 President Clinton launched cruise missiles at Al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan in retaliation for the East African embassy bombings? Both the US Republicans and the international left denounced him, saying that he was just doing it to distract attention from Monica Lewinsky. It was widely condemned as US aggression.

It seem that whatever the US does some people will criticise. I'm listening to Noam Chomsky being interviewed on Newsnight right now and I love the way that whatever the West does he condemns it. If it goes to war or imposes sanctions against dictatorships, he condemns its aggression and hypocricy. If it trades or deals with them he condemns it for supporting dictatorships and being hypocritical.

bpro50
20-05-2004, 03:19
My mother-in-law is an extreme liberal democrat here in the U.S. No matter what a democrat does, she praises it, if a democrat does something immoral (under the desk so to speak) she makes an excuse for it (he was set up). No matter what a Republican person does, it has to be wrong in her eyes and subject to selfish motives.

No matter what political event comes up, I can tell you what she will say before she says it. To me, that is what happens when someone has already made up their own mind about his or her world view. Noam Chomsky represents all that is wrong with the world. He has already pre-packaged his reponse before any event occurs. That is prejudice and mindless and allows no room for change and growth. If someone is predispositioned to hate, then no decision by the U.S. will matter. So, I guess we live with that. It is ashame.

Airheadap
20-05-2004, 04:44
dollparts3000, You are retarded. Enough said.
A bad way to conduct the debate. Personal offence is not the way out.

The US taking over Palestine in 1948 was absolutely wrong. We had no right to do it. Just like many other things we've done in the past. We destroyed Italy's communist political party because we didn't like communism. Seem fair? The US never plays fair. That's life. Get over it.

Haku is right. Over 25 Iraqis have died since the "interrogations". It's stated in the Taguba Report. Don't believe me? Look it up.

In fact, the US sucks. I live in Florida. It is extremely overrated. The same "freedoms" we have here are existant in pretty much every first-world country. There is nothing special about here. The buildings are ugly and the people are stupid.

In conclusion, Europe, here I come (in a few years). I went to France and England in the summer of 2002, and lets say I fell in love. Again, the US sucks. Get over it. Enough said.

luxxi
20-05-2004, 13:31
however, not one of the 9/11 hijackers were from Iraq, although they were all from Saudi Arabi, most of them were affiliated with Al-Queda.

Actually they were from Saudi Arabia and Egypt. ;)


I don't know that Iran was planning to invade, although they were certainly angry with the Taleban for murdering their diplomats. US oil companies were negotiating with the Taleban to build a pipeline through Afghanistan.

Tey were very close to invading. They had large concentrations of troops along the border. Tlaiban took this seriously and started to deploy their troops along the border as well.

It wasn't jsut the diplomats. It was massacring Hazaris and huge amounts of drugs being smuggled across the border.


The point I had made been making was that the West had been short-sighted not to attack the Taleban and Al Qaeda before 9/11. You know what happened when in 1998 President Clinton launched cruise missiles at Al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan in retaliation for the East African embassy bombings? Both the US Republicans and the international left denounced him, saying that he was just doing it to distract attention from Monica Lewinsky. It was widely condemned as US aggression.

The problem was that it was usefull for US to have them around. Pipelines and such.

And if cruise missle attacks were response to embassy bombings why was it necessary to destroy factory producing medicine in Sudan? What had Sudan to do with that? Or was it just coincidence that this factory was only African factory producing medicine for malaria?

forre
20-05-2004, 17:30
Terrorism - killing people without announcement.
War/invasion - killing people with a previous announcement.

Both sides have enough motivation which is true and fair in their own mind. Both sides do that in the name of Allah, Democracy, Humanity, etc.

We are missing only one point I think - Humanism and War are not compatible. DOT!


P.S. Please, try to avoid personal attacks like "your country sucks, you are stupid, etc." There are better ways to explain your point of vew.

luxxi
20-05-2004, 17:42
Terrorism - killing people without announcement.

Then what's the difference between terrorism and murder?


War/invasion - killing people with a previous announcement.

Then what's the difference between war/invasion and death penalty?


Terrorism: Intentional targeting and killing of civilians in order to cause fear in group those civilians belonged to.

War: Conflict between two or more groups where sides use armed violence to gain their goals.

:newyear:

kishkash
20-05-2004, 17:46
Terrorism: Intentional targeting and killing of civilians in order to cause fear in group those civilians belonged to.

War: Conflict between two or more groups where sides use armed violence to gain their goals.


i agree :D

forre
20-05-2004, 18:04
Both cases have a goal and both cases cause killing. There's no difference at all.
Death penalty is a murder in itself but in the name of Justice this time. There's no difference.

To kill/ to murder - to terminate one's life.

luxxi
20-05-2004, 18:11
Both cases have a goal and both cases cause killing. There's no difference at all.

I'm sorry but there are huge differences.

Terrorists kill people to create fear in targeted population to achieve their goals. They don't care who dies, as long as peopel die.

Murderer kills perticular person. As a rule they don't want to create fear but only to achieve their goals. Be it material profits or soemthing.

In war one side tries to force other side to do what they want. Be it ceding territory or something else.


Death penalty is a murder in itself but in the name of Justice this time. There's no difference.

But you said war is killing with previous announcement. How do you separate what's war and what death penalty? By your definition you can't.


To kill/ to murder - to terminate one's life.

So euthanasia is murder?

:newyear:

forre
20-05-2004, 18:24
luxxi, I see what you want - definitions and details, goals and targets. I was speaking about the fact that in all cases a person/group of people dies. We have accidents and abortions too ... do you want to include them into digging through definitions?

What I wanted to say in the first place is that don't try to look for humanism in any killing. It doesn't matter whether it's terrorism, war, death penalty, etc. For me it's irrelevant.

luxxi
20-05-2004, 18:34
luxxi, I see what you want - definitions and details, goals and targets. I was speaking about the fact that in all cases a person/group of people dies. We have accidents and abortions too ... do you want to include them into digging through definitions?


Of course I want to include them. How will you separate murder (illegal taking of life without consent of killed) from death penalty (legal taking of life without consent of killed) from euthanasia (illegal taking of life with consent of killed). definitions have to be as precise as possible otherwise you have troubles with too amny things falling into one cathegory.


What I wanted to say in the first place is that don't try to look for humanism in any killing. It doesn't matter whether it's terrorism, war, death penalty, etc. For me it's irrelevant.

Matter of personal opinion, but I'll respect yours. :rose:

:newyear:

forre
20-05-2004, 18:45
Of course I want to include them. How will you separate murder (illegal taking of life without consent of killed) from death penalty (legal taking of life without consent of killed) from euthanasia (illegal taking of life with consent of killed). definitions have to be as precise as possible otherwise you have troubles with too amny things falling into one cathegory.


Bravo! Here we approached a question of norms. In my country death penalty is an illegal action. Should it mean that Sweden has a good reason to start an invasion of U.S.A. because of that? Politics is a fine durty business and trying to justify external affairs of one country may contradict basically with the norms and mentality of another country.

simon
20-05-2004, 23:43
The problem was that it was usefull for US to have them around. Pipelines and such.

I don't see why it was useful for the US to have the Taliban around. I thought the Michael-Moore-approved hard-left view was that the US overthrew the Taliban not because of the 9/11 attacks, but in order to put the pipeline through Afghanistan

And if cruise missle attacks were response to embassy bombings why was it necessary to destroy factory producing medicine in Sudan? What had Sudan to do with that? Or was it just coincidence that this factory was only African factory producing medicine for malaria?

The factory was believed by the Americans to be a chemical weapons plant. It seems that it was actually making aspirin. I've never heard before that it was making anti-malaria medicine. You refer to a 'coincidence'. You think that Bill Clinton's real motivation was that he wanted to keep medicine from Africa?

luxxi
20-05-2004, 23:53
I don't see why it was useful for the US to have the Taliban around. I thought the Michael-Moore-approved hard-left view was that the US overthrew the Taliban not because of the 9/11 attacks, but in order to put the pipeline through Afghanistan

Because dictators are generally easier to do business with. You cna buy them and are willing to supress any opposition.


The factory was believed by the Americans to be a chemical weapons plant.


Wrongly. Not that US will admit that.....




It seems that it was actually making aspirin. I've never heard before that it was making anti-malaria medicine. You refer to a 'coincidence'. You think that Bill Clinton's real motivation was that he wanted to keep medicine from Africa?

No, Clinton wasn't trying to keep medicine out of Africa. I said it was only African factory making that drug. I guess bombing competion is as good way to get larger market share as any.

What I find very unusual is that Us retaliates for attacks on it's embassies with strikes agaisnt terrorists camps and alledged chemical plant on entirelly different continent and totally unconected. Coincidence?

Airheadap
22-05-2004, 05:26
luxxi, Two of the terrorists were Iraqi, actually. Thirteen were Saudis. Yep.

Now, why does the U.S. get ot go over to another country because it's seen as a threat, whereas we are a threat to the whole world with our 30,000 nuclear weapons. I think we can destroy the world like 700 times over, or something?

luxxi
22-05-2004, 14:03
luxxi, Two of the terrorists were Iraqi, actually. Thirteen were Saudis. Yep.

:no: None were Iraqis. they were Saudis and egyptians. I know some people have troubles telling arabs apart but please try.

:newyear:

piojita
27-05-2004, 13:37
write the following in google: "weapons of mass destruction" and press "I'm lucky"

luxxi
28-05-2004, 13:59
write the following in google: "weapons of mass destruction" and press "I'm lucky"
Also works for "french military victories" and "miserable failure"

:newyear: