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View Full Version : Tatu in Podnebesnaya. Releases from 14.02.04 and 15.02.04. [aka Eps. 9 & 10]


haku
14-02-2004, 21:58
Artem posted this report on the Russian side, many thanks. :rose:

Now we need someone to translate. :D :rose:

Дайджест выпуска 14 февраля (всех с днем св.Валентина):
На прошлой неделе: Советы Троицкого.Кипер открывает тайну создания Тату. Цитаты из чата.
Содержание выпуска:
Шапа получил уведомление от адвокатской конторы Яковлев & Партнеры, а в частности от самого Яковлева, представляющего интересы Ю.О.Волковой и Катиной об одностороннем расторжении контракта с Неформатом подписанного в 2002 году.
Причина - систематическое невыполнение продюссероской компанией своих обязятельств, както:
1) Не желание подписывать договор о распространении альбома с Юниверсалом, или любой другой Рекордс Компанией,
2) Не представление отчетов о получаемых прибылях и как следствие нерегулярные выплаты солисткам.

Шапа звонит девчонкам. Юля не отвечает. Она в трусах разгуливает по квартире, демонстрируя Манскому то тапочки, то постельное белье, то давая слово отцу.
Лена отвечает и отказывается от его предложений "спеть" ссылаясь на извещение.
Бобза тщетно пытается скрыть растерянность. Он уверен что без денег они не остануться. Лого и все гонорары все-равно остаются у них.
Предложение произвести замену солисток встречает отпор со стороны ИШа.
Бобза обсуждает с Цекало (исп.прод.СТС) и ген.дир.СТС дальнейшую возможность продолжения реалити-шоу.
Под конец блока выясняется что денег сейчас оказывается у Неформата нет и не плохо бы продать машину...
Реклама..
На следующий день, Шапа наконец врубается что все серьезно. Понимает что главную претензию (не выплата гонораров) можно и выполнить, но Юниверсал отказывается предоставить отчеты Неформату.
Яковлев и Партнеры проводят собрание всех лиц участвующих в группе и правообладателей, приглашены все, кроме ИШа. Повестка собрания: Отстранение ИШа от продюссерских обязаностей и (!) его снятие с поста ген.директора Неформата.
Бобза после собрания вышел очень растроеным, сказав что его доводы никто не хотел слушать. Манский выводит его на откровенный разговор, из которого понятно - он совсем не готов к такому повороту.
Шапа прослушивает какую-то полуциганку на предмет записи ее альбома. Он серьезно решает это сделать.
Относительно Тату он все-таки думает о продолжении проекта, пусть даже и без него, но с Неформатом.
В студии появляется 7Б, а затем мы видим разговор Шапы с Трахтенбергом, Роман помоему остался недоволен разговором. Шапе как обычно по...
И в общем под конец: Шапа с Бобзой и Манским на полном серьезе обдумывают в рамках проекта записать не один, а три альбома: Наташин (в цыганском стиле), Поднебесная (авторский сборник из присланных), Тату.
Когда Манский говорит о том что девчонки не будут петь, Шапа и Бобза обсуждают возможность кастинга...

Цирк продолжается. Советую держать ушки в остро.

PS про автомат: шапа действительно держал в руках что-то похожее на пулемет, после получения извещения.

thegurgi
14-02-2004, 22:32
Superflous Thread!

You know i haven't seen a single episode of this and i'm excited for this one. It makes me feel weird....

The Gurgi Anxiously Awaits a Report. The Episode should have ended like .5 hours ago.

haku
14-02-2004, 22:42
From what i understand, Yulia and Lena do want Ivan out of the project and even out of Neformat. I think.

They want to break the contract because:
The recording of the album did not occur in time.
Ivan did not pay them (not enough?)


And also, on the Russian side people are saying that Ivan organized the lookalike contest to find replacements for Yulia and Lena. :D

guesshoo
14-02-2004, 23:13
Originally posted by haku
And also, on the Russian side people are saying that Ivan organized the lookalike contest to find replacements for Yulia and Lena. :D


hmmmmmmm........
not a very bright idea vanya :no:

Kate
14-02-2004, 23:30
from Illyuziya

Today Vanya recorded another song for his album, here are the lyrics:

Evening without love
Morning without sorrow
Disabled people
Disabled people

To get a good overview of the whole song, repeat the top 4 lines twice, and the bottom line 10 times. :)

<<----------------->>

Now, from Artem:

Digesting the Valentine's Day episode:

Last week: Troitskyi's suggestions. Kiper reveals Tatu's secrtes. Quotes from the live chat.

Contents of this episode:

Shaps recieved a notification from the law firm Yakovlev an Co., to be exact - from Yakovlev himself. The firm represents Julia and Lena's interests in the annulment of the contract they signed with Shaps in 2002.

The reason of the girls want an annulment of the contract is because their producer does not follow what they agreed upon in the contract:

1) He doesn't want to sign a contract with Universal or any other records company to sell the albums.
2) He doesn't norificate the girls regularly about their earning, and doesn't pay them regularly either.

Shaps calls the girls. Julia ignores the call. She walks around the apartment in her underpants, showing Masky her slippers, then her bedding, then swearing to her dad (?).

Lena answers the call, but refuses to "sing" as he suggests, reminding him of the notification.

Bobza (? Dunno who he is ?) is trying hard to hide his disapointment. He is sure that they won't be left without money. The logo and royalties will be left with them. The suggestion to change the singers in the group is met by Shaps rejection.

Bobza is discussing the possible continuation of the reality show with heads of STS.

At the end of things it is announced that Neformat has no money, and it'll be a good idea to sell a car... (WTF?)

[Commertial Break..]

On the next day, Shaps realises that everything is serious. He realises that they can not pay the royalties, but that Universal is not going to give Neformat a report (of their earning, I assume - Kate).

Yakovlev and Co. called a meeting of all the group members and right holders, everyone to do with Tatu is invited except Shaps. Theme of the meeting: To take away Shaps producer right of the group AND to take him off the post of general director of Neformat.

Bobza came out pretty upset after the meeting, said that no one listened to his reasons. Mansky asks him for an intimate interview, from which it is clear that he is not ready for such a turn in things.

Shaps listens to some gypsy-looking girl and gets her ready to record. He is seriously doing this.

As for Tatu, he thinks that the project will go on without him, but under Neformat.

Then 7B appear in the studio, and then Roman Trahtenberg talks with Shaps and appears to be upset with the talk, Shaps look like he doesn't give a f*ck...

At the end: Shaps, Bobza and Mansky seriouslt think about recording three albums in the frames of one project: Natasha's (gypsy style), Podnebesnaya (collection of songs sent in by fans) and Tatu's.

When Mansky mentions the fact that the Julia and Lena won't sing, Shaps and Bobza seriously discuss the possibility of auditions...

The circus continues. Stay tuned is my suggestion.

PS about the guns: Shaps was holding something like a missile-gun when he was notified abou the annulment of the contract.

------------------->>

Sorry for any errors. Not in translating mood today. :( Didn't want to translate at all, as it's the same sh*t every episode. But, you guys are my friends, so here it is. Read it, at least. Lol. :rose:

thegurgi
14-02-2004, 23:41
Very interesting, Thanks Kate and Artem and Haku for the reports

haku
14-02-2004, 23:42
Thanks a lot for the translation katbeidar :rose:

Ok, so the girls want a new producer and a new album (not the one Shap is writing).

And Shap is looking for replacements to Yulia and Lena for his album.

:D Sounds interesting, in a totally chaotic sorta way LOL

Shap does not pay Yulia and Lena regularly... Why am i not surprised?

And Shap had a gun?! :spy: Y&L better stay away from him.

thegurgi
14-02-2004, 23:49
So... umm, Does Neformat want to keep Yulia and Lena or not? I mean if they just Oust Shap, and the girls stay with Neformat i can see things being ok.

I don't like the idea of replacements, in fact that prospect angers me greatly.

RowerB
14-02-2004, 23:55
Thanks haku and Artem for the report and katbeidar for the translation.

guesshoo
15-02-2004, 00:02
thanx kate.
the translation was greatly appreciated. :yes:

as far as shap is concerned...........
nevamind. i'll keep the negative comments to myself for the time being.
maybe i'll be back in a few hours or sumthin. :rolleyes:


btw, yay for volk and lena.
they finally got tired of the bs! :)

cirrus
15-02-2004, 00:04
So... umm, Does Neformat want to keep Yulia and Lena or not? I mean if they just Oust Shap, and the girls stay with Neformat i can see things being ok.
But doesn't the article say that Neformat has no money? In that case, they can't pay the girls or for the production and promotion of an album by themselves... I think :spy:

And replacements... sheesh. why not just make a new project, since in essence that's what it will be. You can't continue Tatu with different people.

thegurgi
15-02-2004, 00:12
But if they girls just want Shap out. And Neformat want Shap Out. And Shap is out but stay with Neformat, they'd get to keep everything that is owned by Neformat [ie. their songs and name]. So i'd greatly appreciate that.

It's all Shaps Fault ANYWAY, why not oust him. He's a detriment it seems, and just by the way he's being protrayed... insane. a GUN!?!

MassMedia
15-02-2004, 00:14
whats the date of these recordings? weve only heard that they wanted to break the contract not too long ago. did they catch it and edit it that quicK?

Unplugged
15-02-2004, 00:18
Hmm. This is very weird. I mean, wasn't this reality-show supposed to supervised by Ivan, who had an agreement with Mansky (just like in the Anatomy docu) ? If so, it's really strange that Ivan supposedly didn't realize what was happening (the girls complaining, etc) ? I'll wait for the next episode to comment on.

haku
15-02-2004, 00:26
Originally posted by staringelf
wasn't this reality-show supposed to supervised by Ivan, who had an agreement with Mansky (just like in the Anatomy docu) ?
Well, you know, i remember some people saying that Manski and Ivan had worked together on Anatomy and "tricked" the girls, but we've seen quite a few pictures where Manski and the girls are really friendly.

Maybe it's the other way around, maybe the girls had planned this with Manski and told him beforehand that they were going to break the contract right in Ivan' face during the show. :D

thegurgi
15-02-2004, 00:44
haku, right on the button i bet.

It seems like Mansky is portraying Shapovalov in a strange light. It's completely reversed. Maybe he agrees with the girls.

QueenBee
15-02-2004, 00:49
*Is becoming so paranoid*

Staringelf I like your avatar! :coctail:

nasnedagoniat
15-02-2004, 01:08
<------- Thinks of that Osbourne episode where chaotic things happen but everything turns out to be a big joke created by the family and the producers.

Just how is business conducted in Russia to where a producer has anything to do with paying the artists?!?! Maybe because Ivan has some kind of position at Neformat? If this payment thing is really true, I'm sorry, but the girls have a right to get what they deserve or quit. You don't mess with an artist's money Ivan!

*Walks away very upset and disappointed in Ivan.*:grustno:

Nike75
15-02-2004, 01:21
Thanks for the translation, Kate :rose: !

tatyruv
15-02-2004, 01:24
Thanks for the translation katbeidar...

simon
15-02-2004, 01:50
Thanks for the translation, katbeidar

Is this shit for real or are they having us on?

Unplugged
15-02-2004, 02:01
Originally posted by QueenBee
*Is becoming so paranoid*

Staringelf I like your avatar! :coctail:

Wait, which one? :ithink: I must have changed like 4 times today... lol Was it the 'wardrobe malfunction' one? :heh:

Kate
15-02-2004, 02:17
from Illyuziya

Today Vanya recorded another song for his album, here are the lyrics:

Evening without love
Morning without sorrow
Disabled people
Disabled people

To get a good overview of the whole song, repeat the top 4 lines twice, and the bottom line 10 times.

Any thoughts on the new song Shaps was recording?

:ithink:

thegurgi
15-02-2004, 02:20
katbeidar, was HE singing it?? If he was, i don't even think it could lyrically or musically be good.... icks.

Although, he is kind of singing about me :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

QueenBee
15-02-2004, 04:20
I forgot to say THANK YOU KATE, you weren't in a mood but you still did it for us..
Aaw.. I think I'm gonna cry :hmmm: We love you and we appreciate everything you're doing!
For you: :rose:

denial
15-02-2004, 05:01
katbeidar, thank you. Things looks very stressful there now.


The reason of the girls want an annulment of the contract is because their producer does not follow what they agreed upon in the contract:

1) He doesn't want to sign a contract with Universal or any other records company to sell the albums.
2) He doesn't norificate the girls regularly about their earning, and doesn't pay them regularly either.

.. why doesn't he?


Shaps calls the girls. Julia ignores the call. She walks around the apartment in her underpants, showing Masky her slippers, then her bedding, then swearing to her dad (?).

Lena answers the call, but refuses to "sing" as he suggests, reminding him of the notification.

- this scene... were Yulia and Yulia's father and Lena at same place (apartment) that time?

thegurgi
15-02-2004, 05:32
i bet they were in their seperate homes

Kate
15-02-2004, 06:52
denial, I have no idea.

Please, bear in mind that I dunno what the hell I was translating, cuz I didn't quite follow Artem's Russian... :hmmm: I didn't get some of the sentences, but the majority is hopefully correct.

Celtic Jobber
15-02-2004, 07:26
Thanks Kate for translating Artem's report. :rose:

Does anyone in Russia have the reality show on video so they can cap the episodes for those of us worldwide who haven't seen any of them? :dknow:

I'm starting to get desperate... I must see this show... :gigi:

thegurgi
15-02-2004, 07:42
Celtic Jobber, Hare told me that a Russian has most of the episodes and plans to upload them soon... but i can't really tell anymore than that....

since it's all i know, Thanks for that Reassurance Hare [by the way :)]

Celtic Jobber
15-02-2004, 07:50
That's good to know.

Thanks thegurgi and Hare. :done:

Lux
15-02-2004, 16:57
yes, this is great. the show is picking up. i'm glad there's something going on at least.

Tom Violence
15-02-2004, 17:41
Originally posted by katbeidar
Julia ignores the call. She walks around the apartment in her underpants...

Yes. Quite right the show is picking up. More of this and I'll start watching.

bpro50
15-02-2004, 18:09
Once Yul hits the front door at her house, she strips down to her underpants and spends an inordinate amount of time swearing. I think they should transfer the RS to Yulia's house. It would be more interesting.

xena225
15-02-2004, 18:20
Originally posted by katbeidar
Shaps calls the girls. Julia ignores the call. [...]
Lena answers the call, but refuses to "sing" as he suggests, reminding him of the notification.
Does it strike anybody else as weird that Manski was around at exactly the right moment to film the girls' reactions to Ivan's phone calls? Not only in Yulia's apartment, but apparently also in Lena's? Seems like a REAL big coincidence to me. I'm not saying it's not possible, but it's a really strange coincidence, no?

Originally posted by katbeidar
She walks around the apartment in her underpants, showing Masky her slippers, then her bedding, then swearing to her dad (?).
Only because a question mark was added, I'd like to supply this translation by elf (from tatu.us):
"She is walking around the room in her panties [...] while letting her father speak."
I don't speak Russian, I just wanted to add it, because of the question mark!

Thank you for the translation, katbeidar! :rose:

xena225

Lena410
15-02-2004, 19:55
xena225, manski has a special skill..he *always* knows when to be where so he gets the important parts on camera. :rolleyes:

:lol: this RS keeps getting funnier by the minute...honestly I had wondered wtf they wanted to show bout recording for 20 episodes..I never thought they'd just turn it into a soup :p this is hilarious

kishkash
15-02-2004, 20:16
Thanks for the news :rose:

I think the girls should not only seek annulment of the contract, they should also sue under the tort of breach of contract, and reclaim the money they were owed, as well as get more money (in the form of economic loss) $.$. Not only will Ivan declare bankruptcy to not have to pay in full, during the court trial all his dirty laundry will be aired and he will never be a credible producer in the business again :gigi: :coctail:

Even if he picks himself up again and decides to produce more crappy songs (have u heard the stuff he's been producing lately?) Would other new artists take a chance with him under an independant label, and know they won't get payed bcoz of his previous behavior with tatu? He's burned way too many bridges...

kish *thinks she's been reading too much business law* kash

thegurgi
15-02-2004, 21:45
kish *thinks she's been reading too much business law* kash

It's OK Kish, that was something i hadn't thought of... the girls should do that.... :: devilish laugh ::

Kate
15-02-2004, 22:05
Oh, for God's sake, xena225! Is it really that important?

I think the rest of the translations will be made by elf. Next time just bring his over and we'll fix it up. You didn't offend me, but I just want to say, although I love of all of you guys, I am done translating. It takes too much time, and it's a one way favor.

So, thanks for flying "translated by katbeidar" airways. Enjoy your life.

On a more personal note, I won't be on TatySite.net as much either.

Hope it goes well for Tatu and you guys.

haku
15-02-2004, 22:50
Originally posted by xena225
Does it strike anybody else as weird that Manski was around at exactly the right moment to film the girls' reactions to Ivan's phone calls?
I said the same thing about Manski precisely filming Lena when she fainted. People told me at the time that Manski (and other people with cameras) were around the girls all the time, so it was only normal they didn't miss anything. *shrugs* I don't know.

In Singapore, there was someone filming Lena there also (not Manski), so i guess they are really filming them *all the time*.

thegurgi
15-02-2004, 22:51
, I won't be on TatySite.net as much either

nooo Kat Kat! You can't leave us!

....

Rob
15-02-2004, 23:25
Originally posted by haku
I said the same thing about Manski precisely filming Lena when she fainted. People told me at the time that Manski (and other people with cameras) were around the girls all the time, so it was only normal they didn't miss anything. *shrugs* I don't know.
I don't have a clue whether what we see is "real" or not but I see a difference in these 2 examples as in Tokyo we had an important event, lots of journalist and cameras, no surprsie Manskii was there in order to film as the 2 Tokyo-Dome concerts wer a huge happening for tATu.
But Manskii being there the moment when Ivan rings in order to talk about the "split"-note comes across a bit odd, at least to me. Besides I don't know if this was really the day Ivan received the note and I don't quite get the locations.
Might be helpful or not to see the stuff with own eyes. :rolleyes:

haku
15-02-2004, 23:37
Well, Manski knew when Y&L's lawyer was going to give notice to Ivan about the break of contract, from there it was easy for him to guess that Ivan was going to call Yulia and Lena right away (i'm assuming they were using mobile phones, but who's using wired phones anymore lol), so all he had to do is have a camera with each girl at the time Ivan got the paper.
Besides, i think Yulia and Lena are working with Manski on this, so Manski knows where to be to get the good stuff.

QueenBee
15-02-2004, 23:38
<- Is becoming even more paranoid than last time.

And confused.

MassMedia
16-02-2004, 03:43
Originally posted by xena225
[B]Does it strike anybody else as weird that Manski was around at exactly the right moment to film the girls' reactions to Ivan's phone calls? Not only in Yulia's apartment, but apparently also in Lena's? Seems like a REAL big coincidence to me. I'm not saying it's not possible, but it's a really strange coincidence, no?


thats what i was thinking.... is mansky really around the girls more than ivan? could he be filming without his knowledge? ofcourse why would ivan allow that?

Rob
16-02-2004, 03:53
Originally posted by haku
Well, Manski knew when Y&L's lawyer was going to give notice to Ivan about the break of contract, from there it was easy for him to guess that Ivan was going to call Yulia and Lena right away ...
Hm, we're all speculating, but I would have suggested that he calls his lawyer or the lawyer of Neformat in such a moment. :none:

simon
16-02-2004, 04:13
There are three theories:

1. Reality is simply unfolding. Anyone who thinks that's how reality tv works needs to get real.

2. The entire thing is a set-up between Ivan, the tatushki and Mansky. Possible.

3. Mansky and STS hijacked the show from Ivan. Mansky is now in league with Y&L (who have woken up and smelt the coffee about Ivan's management skills) and has got their cooperation by offering to line up some very impressive producer to work with them next. Also possible.

I think Ivan has lost control. Why? Because Elena Kipper is on the show! If Ivan was in control of the situation he wouldn't have let Elena appear telling her side of the story. I think Mansky and STS are directing the situation. Yulia and Lena aren't Ivan's pawns any more - I suspect they're Mansky's!

Rob
16-02-2004, 04:49
Hm, Kiper getting screen-time was odd, yes, but if it's true that Ivan and her still got contact, then it's not that surprising anymore.

denial
16-02-2004, 04:57
Originally posted by kishkash
Even if he picks himself up again and decides to produce more crappy songs (have u heard the stuff he's been producing lately?) ...

You mean Ne Ver Ne Boisia Ne Prosi and Nich'ya ?


Kate .. I hope you not leaving us. Please don't .. for you :rose:

Rob
16-02-2004, 05:04
Sorry, but both NVNB and Nich'ya are great songs.

Kate
16-02-2004, 05:10
I'm not leaving-leaving, I'm just not gonna post as much.

Rob, NVNBNP and Nichya are not good enough songs to be hits like ATTSS. And who's stating his opinion as fact now? :rolleyes:

thegurgi
16-02-2004, 05:18
i beg to differ Kate about NVNB and Nich'ya, I really do.

But i'll let you keep your opinion....

But, The Squirrel Song and that other one about "Invalid People" ... well, i'd agree fully... even though i haven't heard them

denial
16-02-2004, 05:21
kate, they don't need hits like ATTSS... they already have fan base.

dollparts3000
16-02-2004, 06:26
I really like Nich'ya
I don't really like NVNB

I don't think those songs compare to NND YSSU !! But Nichya is pretty good!

RowerB
16-02-2004, 07:17
Originally posted by katbeidar
NVNBNP and Nichya are not good enough songs to be hits like ATTSS
It would be hard to repeat a song as catchy and as meaningful as ATTSS, but I can listen to NVNBNP on repeat and never tire of it. For me it is the best song of all, ever, even though it’s in a foreign language.

I’ve not been posting on this board long, but I’ve come to think of it as my primary source of tatu news, largely due to your translations katbeidar. I hope the translation wars don’t put you off altogether.

MassMedia
16-02-2004, 07:34
i dig both songs. and i like Prostie Dvi better than YSSU

Kate
16-02-2004, 08:59
translation wars
Nicely put, RowerB. :gigi:

freddie
16-02-2004, 09:10
Translation wars are stupid. Who CARES anyway?! I mean why are you doing the translating? For the fans right? So what if other fans get to read it?! It won't be any less yours. Besides, translations are not intelectual property since it's just a remake of something that was posted in the original langauge.

denial
16-02-2004, 09:28
I have a strange thought about this:

If all that happened in RS is REAL: .. What Ivan did since after the cancelation of UK concert seems to me like self-destructive act.

and this:

1) He doesn't want to sign a contract with Universal or any other records company to sell the albums.
2) He doesn't norificate the girls regularly about their earning, and doesn't pay them regularly either.

"Regularly" == How regular? So the girls did get paid.

Why Ivan did what he did ..?
We all know the songs are good. (PD, NVNB and Nich'ya)

Originally posted by Rob
Hm, Kiper getting screen-time was odd, yes, but if it's true that Ivan and her still got contact, then it's not that surprising anymore.
I think Lena Kiper is that extraordinary woman... does she worth all these to Ivan? Love can be strange sometimes..

:gigi:

Happy belated Valentine's day !! :rose: ..LoL

haku
16-02-2004, 09:35
Originally posted by freddie
why are you doing the translating? For the fans right? So what if other fans get to read it?! It won't be any less yours.
It's one thing to see your translations copied somewhere else, and another thing to see your work systematically ridiculed on another forum. I can understand that katbeidar got tired to see people say that her translations were not good, biased, and manipulated to make Tatu look bad. If her translations were *that* bad, why were people copying them in the first place?
And if someone does not agree with a translation, the best approach is to write another complete version, instead of pointing out line by line the "misinterpretations" in someone else's work and appear like a "teacher" correcting a "child".

And of course that person from another Russian site copying Tatysite's articles without giving proper credit was probably the final straw.

showMElove2
16-02-2004, 11:27
Originally posted by haku
It's one thing to see your translations copied somewhere else, and another thing to see your work systematically ridiculed on another forum. I can understand that katbeidar got tired to see people say that her translations were not good, biased, and manipulated to make Tatu look bad. If her translations were *that* bad, why were people copying them in the first place?
And if someone does not agree with a translation, the best approach is to write another complete version, instead of pointing out line by line the "misinterpretations" in someone else's work and appear like a "teacher" correcting a "child".

And of course that person from another Russian site copying Tatysite's articles without giving proper credit was probably the final straw.

Just wanted to say that I apprecited katbeidar's translations:rose: However it was hard not to have noticed all the things mentioned in the above post....:rolleyes:
This is why I come to this site for the news and the discussions:)

Rob
16-02-2004, 11:29
Originally posted by katbeidar
Rob, NVNBNP and Nichya are not good enough songs to be hits like ATTSS. And who's stating his opinion as fact now? :rolleyes:
Dear katbeidar, You read my post? - it starts with "Sorry" which indicates here that I'm presenting my opinion.
Sorry, but both NVNB and Nich'ya are great songs.

Have a nice day.

xena225
16-02-2004, 11:47
Originally posted by dollparts3000
I really like Nich'ya

Originally posted by RowerB
I can listen to NVNBNP on repeat and never tire of it.
I whole-heartedly agree with both statements. :done: Both songs are inventive, clever and beautifully sung - one heart-breakingly tender and poignant, the other full of energy, strength and defiance. The lyrics are stunning.

They just make me long for - more more more!

*off to listen to both of them now* :cool:

xena225

Lux
16-02-2004, 18:28
it IS convenient that manski happened to be there when all this took place. maybe he stays around just because things like this ARE supposed to happen..
sueing ivan for breach of contract how? how has be breached the contract with details not many ppl are familiar with? i think all of this is in line with the reality show. what would they be doing if this wasn't going on? OH right. staring at yulia walking around half nekkid. :none: :dead:

la aurora
16-02-2004, 23:41
Ummm... I'm late as usual lol Well... And I can't give the full report this time... I missed most of the Saturday episode for some reason... and on Sunday i also couldn't watch it attentively enough. So here's the short update for ya.

From small fragments I was able to catch on Saturday, it seems Ivan is in real shit now. He's about to loose not only TATU but Neformat as well... He didn't seem like a person who's able to even understand what's going on. 2 hours before the meeting at Neformat office where he wasn't even allowed to be, he was sitting in his flat talking to his friend who was invited to the meeting... the talk was about money Ivan needed to find to pay girls... the guy seemed really lost.

When that friend of Ivan leaft the room where meeting took place... he said that tho most of the things everyone was saying were thruth... it wasn't fair not to invite Ivan... and it wasn't fair to leave him now, when he really began to do recording and reality show... that it would be more fair to leave him before that... when he was really doing nothing.

Then Ivan's talk with Roman Trahtenberg - scandalous radio DJ and host of 'I bet u will' - like show on MUZ-TV was shown. Roman was quite exited saying how clever Ivan was creating such a project from nothing almost... and that Ivan was the main character there and other parts of the project (girls included) could be changed. Ivan only said: 'Changed? Not... I don't see TATU with different girls... what for?' Once again he looked kinda pathetic.

Sunday episode was mostly about Pasha (Y's bf) and how he wanted to meet Van Dam and how they met him and the guy was just talking about his new movie lol Some discussion between Mansky, Ivan and Co was shown... they were discussing what's going to be next... how could they continue reality show if 2 soloists were gone. And what they could do to get girls back... what they could promise and offer... that thay could promise things would be different from now on. Ivan was keeping silience most of the time. Like for him everything was over already.... or he hoped it wasn't but didn't know what to do.

Rest of the show was other russian stars talking about TATU... Mansky asked them what they felt about the fact TATU was over... many said it was a pity... that it was the first project in Russia making real international money... that without TATU L&Y won't achieve much... they don't have enough charisma to be solo. Boris Moiseev (gay icon and a friend of TATU) said that if they split, it would be very stupid of them... that they have so many things to do still... that both girls are damn talented and can really sing... TATU is a whole... if u take any part off... it would be like cutting his arm or ear and then send to the stage to perform. And everyone said 'F*ck the war' tour was a brilliant idea.

Oh yeah... and some old footage was shown... from about a year ago... when TATU were in USA. Ivan was sitting in some cafe and talking to the camera... he was saying that girls aren't real artist still... that they are artistic on stage... but they don't know how to behave in life... and real artist needs both abilities. He said it was his fault... he opened the backdoor for girls to this world of show-business... they didn't have to break-through themselves... so they didn't have any experience. And he hoped they'll learn this in future.
Some Interscope guys were talking... mansky asked them how much TATU costed at the moment... one said they were priceless... as any artist and music in general... second was more concrete... he said TATU costed 50 000$ for one evening plus album sales. And they both agreed that TATU has great future if they will work hard and make a tour. Coz the talent was there.

So... latest episodes were kinda sad... especially due to the contrast between 'feb 2004' footage and what was happening a year ago in USA when everyone had fun and everything was ok.

Lux
16-02-2004, 23:51
sunnypoison - thank you very much. :)


i agree with ivan! the girls have little experience as performers, much less artists. they don't have enough charisma to go solo, how true. shaps in some deep sh*t now, how will he get himself out of this? ... the drama continues

piojita
16-02-2004, 23:54
thanks for the report!

Originally posted by sunny poison
Sunday episode was mostly about Pasha (Y's bf) and how he wanted to meet Van Dam and how they met him and the guy was just talking about his new movie lol

Is that the actor from those really bad action movies? Is he like Pashas idol or something?! Oh my :ill:

Unplugged
17-02-2004, 00:18
Is he like Pashas idol or something?! Oh my

:laugh: Well, it's pretty obvious, Pasha looks like a dumb jock

Nike75
17-02-2004, 00:36
Thanks for the report, sunny! :rose:

cirrus
17-02-2004, 00:38
I sincerely hope she remains in the music business, even if it is for singing Slavic folk covers.
Something's better than nothing! ;)


Yes, it is sad how the worst-case scenario appears to have become reality. And though I love to think about the old days, just as they were about to break into the West, it's unnerving to see how much they could of done, but failed. What hurts is that "Tatu" was a great idea... imagery, sexuality, music and performance... maybe if it was in better hands, it could of survived.

spyretto
17-02-2004, 00:42
Wasted by clashing egos and the love of money. Shap lost the plot ever since he demanded his stupid "total control over the project". Soon he'll have control over nothing...

QueenBee
17-02-2004, 00:43
Maybe the perfect group was just an illusion.. :gigi: Maybe it was all about the money from the very beginning.. or at least when Ivan found out he could make big bucks on Tatu. Maybe it was about experimenting with reactions and society and life itself.

Maybe life is just an illusion? :spy:

cirrus
17-02-2004, 00:49
:laugh: QueenBee,
trying to pull that Matrix stuff on us?

Yes, maybe it was about money from the start. All projects are, to a certain degree, because they need money to survive and continue recording. Also, bands often lose money on tour, not make it. But when Tatu was a team - Ivan, Kiper, Polienko... whoever... it seemed more creative and exciting. There was an energy. Recently, it's just become predictable and at times laughable.

tatyruv
17-02-2004, 00:49
thank you sunny poison for the report! :D

spyretto
17-02-2004, 00:50
That's Imagination

"Could it be that it's just an illusion putting me back in all this confusion?" :D

hey, common on guys. NVNV was heard in the whole of Europe, PD was in the Russian charts 1.5 years ago...these are the new songs Tatu will base their newly-founded success on?

I think I heard a demo of PD in english? The song wouldn't work in English.

Nichya is good, no doubt. But it's just one song, not three. and is it hit material? It's not better than Show me Love or Stars...

la aurora
17-02-2004, 00:52
well... first of all BOTH girls want to continue their singing careers... and they don't mind doing it together. At least it looks so. They don't want Shap anymore. But if Ivan looses not only TATU but Neformat as well... then girls can even save their name and just keep working with another producer. It seems Ivan is public enemy N1 now... for everyone. But even he still has the chance. Y&L and ppl around them aren't fools. they realise TATU was and still is their only chance. May be this whole thing is just the way to shake Ivan and return him back to reality.

And may be TATU are over and we'll never hear about any of them anymore. Hell knows... Let's wait.

spyretto
17-02-2004, 00:56
Well, sunny I sincerely hope so...but with all of Yulia's problems and her unwillingness to give 100%??

It looks a long shot...

tatyruv
17-02-2004, 00:57
Continue their musical carreer...I hope they do...

piojita
17-02-2004, 01:01
Originally posted by spyretto
Well, [b]sunny I sincerely hope so...but with all of Yulia's problems and her unwillingness to give 100%??

pasha should hook up with van damme the action hero, they would make a cute couple and Yulia could focus on recording the album :p

Kate
17-02-2004, 01:02
I don't know how to get out my frustration with Tatu anymore! They start to really, really bug me with their publicity seeking stunts and scandals! :mad: I should join a boxing club or something. I am so "aaarrrrggggghh" right now. :mad: I desparately need something to punch. Preferablly Shapovalov.

simon
17-02-2004, 01:41
Thank you sunny poison

Pasha idolises Jean-Claude van Damme! So he has neither looks nor brains. :no: What does Yulia see in him? :dknow:

I agree with a lot of spyretto's analysis, but I completely disagree that Ivan is talentless. I think he had some great creative ideas and his videos for YSSU and NND were the best I've ever seen. He's turning into a Shakespearian tragic hero. His fatal flaws have been greed and egotism. He drove away first Galoyan (the goose that laid the golden eggs), Kiper (the co-creator and Ivan's much-needed reality check) and now it appears Yulia and Lena.

cirrus
17-02-2004, 01:49
I desparately need something to punch. Preferablly Shapovalov.
:laugh: haha! calm down, kate. :rose: Geez, I fear for ol' Shap if you ever meet him. ;)

He's turning into a Shakespearian tragic hero. His fatal flaws have been greed and egotism.
Wow, good connection! what's the word, hubris? excessive pride? But we don't know Shap so we can't honestly judge him. Though he does make a good person to blame :)

MassMedia
17-02-2004, 01:54
were never going to see a video are we :(

denial
17-02-2004, 01:58
sunny poison, thank you very much for the 'late' report. :D

spyretto
17-02-2004, 02:10
Originally posted by simon
Thank you sunny poison

Pasha idolises Jean-Claude van Damme! So he has neither looks nor brains. :no: What does Yulia see in him? :dknow:

I agree with a lot of spyretto's analysis, but I completely disagree that Ivan is talentless. I think he had some great creative ideas and his videos for YSSU and NND were the best I've ever seen. He's turning into a Shakespearian tragic hero. His fatal flaws have been greed and egotism. He drove away first Galoyan (the goose that laid the golden eggs), Kiper (the co-creator and Ivan's much-needed reality check) and now it appears Yulia and Lena.

ok, musically talentless then. He had some good ideas but his luck run out. And I doubt the ideas were all his, he was working with all those people, it was a collective project after all. Then all of a sudden he appears as the sole creative force behind Tatu. It doesn't figure.
He was so cocky in that "30 minutes making off" video, he thought he was creating the masterpiece of the century or what? :bebebe:
Yulia and Lena probably didn't know him well enough or they were too ecstatic to bother. Either way, those collaborations, like Kiper, Galoyan, etc. were left behind in the race for the big dough but somehow Ivan lost track of his masterplan along the way...

King Lear? or perhaps Othello? Or maybe there's one even better ? :p

Lux
17-02-2004, 02:12
kate - they start to bug you? LOL just now?? :lol:

to be honest i don't really believe any of this and at the same time i believe it. if they get rid of ivan, whom i don't blame nor hate because it's not his fault, the project may as well not exist. they need ivan, he put it together, he kept it going, even when things were rocky he still stayed. it's this mind warping reality crap nonsense show that annoys me. why all this nonsense? can't they just release the album already? when it's released it'll be..'oh yeah we stuck it through, ivan was behind the whole thing. ha. ha. ha." :none:

EDIT: yeah ivan had good ideas, but it's not luck. although the collective project resulted in something amazing, it cannot be created again. i am not quick to point the finger at ivan just because he took over things, without the other writers. how the western world reacted to tatu's image is out of ivan's hands, no one has control over that. needless to say, the image itself was controversial to begin with, that is, to the rest of the world. what then? blame the rest of the world? pffft

spyretto
17-02-2004, 02:25
He got most of the money Tatu made for his services, so he din't do it from the kindness of his heart. Now if he blew the money away who is to blame? And we don't know for a fact was only him who put the project together. Maybe he was more cunning to drive the others out?
About the image...well, that persistence in publicity seeking stunts as Kate said didn't make things any better. They were screaming for attention and the West got bored of that pretty soon.

Kate
17-02-2004, 02:49
Lux, they start to bug you? LOL just now??

A long long time ago, actually. Doesn't matter, though. :p

Back to the topic we've been discussing for the start of Tatu... "are they or aren't they?", "will they or won't they?" and "we'll see". :laugh: :gigi:

Lux
17-02-2004, 03:27
who said he did it out of the kindness of his heart?
this was a business venture.


i don't see how they were screaming for attention. they were already madly popular in their native country and wanted to venture across the globe. the west wasn't bored with their antics, they didn't buy into their image from the start. it wasn't really a debate on how good the music is[many people shunned their image], it was about how fake/real they are. the image wasn't appealing and the music got somewhat ignored. although they were pretty popular in europe for awhile due to the trend in techno/pop and dance the career life wasn't a long one. being a pop duo, it wasn't black and white - "are they? aren't they?" it was just an image, and the west as a whole didn't buy it. tatu didn't scream for attention from the beginning, i'd say they were modest in their eagerness approaching the western world. the visits made in the US especially, were not big events, in fact, they were rather cautious.

who knows exactly whether he blew the money or not?
i have not read or seen any facts that would point to that possibility. i am not quick to blame ivan in particular just because he is the only one left, just because the others left, just because the recent events all happened and he is the only one left. in the beginning, it was ivan and that one dude who wanted a duo to sing "yugoslavia" and ivan developed the idea for a duo, not lesbian duo, but just duo. the lesbian image idea came later, and i believe it's ivan because he was there when no one else was. the team of writers/producers came after he had the duo together, didnt they?
i dont see all of the "stunts" as acts for publicity. some things happened due to conflict and unprofessionalism but that's just my opinion. who is to say that every single thing that went wrong was an act to get publicity? say that is the case, whatever publicity they got didn't benefit their image. in fact, all of the "publicity" has worsened their popularity by confusing fans and instilling nothing but negative feelings. it's illogical that everything they do is calculated as some publicity stunt because some of the events didn't even get publicity, they did not benefit their popularity at all i.e. the wembley fiasco, or not singing in japan when they were supposed to.
i can't stress this anymore. the west didn't buy them right away because of the image. there's too much ambiguity to stay interested because in order to reel people in something has to be massively appealing. ambiguity does not equal mass appeal.


i'm beginning to get incoherent so i'll stop here.

haku
17-02-2004, 03:30
Thanks for the report sunny poison :rose:


Jean-Claude Van Damme is not a great actor, but he's a great statement maker, like this one:
"I'm fascinated by air. If air was removed from the sky, birds would fall down... And the planes too... But you can't touch air... It exists and doesn't exist... It can feed men without them being even hungry... It's magic... Air is beautiful and yet you can't see it, it's soft and yet you can't touch it... Air is a little like my brain..." :lol:


Originally posted by Lux
the lesbian image idea came later, and i believe it's ivan because he was there when no one else was.
That's why Ivan is responsible, he's the one who created the image! The whole concept of the project is based on lies and deception. Ivan just probably saw some Japanese animes and realized that having two real flesh teenage girls showing panties and making out would be a great sell, and it worked very well, beyond his wildest expectations i'm sure. The message of tolerance for same-sex couples was fake, just an unvoluntary side effect of showing two schoolgirls making out, but it was never the main goal of the project. The main goal was simply to sell a band using one of the most common fantasies: cute teenage girls kissing and groping each other.
The problem is, Ivan never planned what he would do when the girls would grow up, the girls are too old now, they don't fit in the uniforms anymore, the actresses refuse to play any longer, the fantasy and the message are dead.

dollparts3000
17-02-2004, 04:01
Originally posted by Lux
sunnypoison - thank you very much. :)


i agree with ivan! the girls have little experience as performers, much less artists. they don't have enough charisma to go solo, how true. shaps in some deep sh*t now, how will he get himself out of this? ... the drama continues

I agree too! A lot of people say that Ivan is screwing everything up wiith his lack of professionalism and they might be right. I think however that there is no way of knowing for sure what is going on in Ivan's head. Just because he looks like a "pot smoking slacker" does not mean he is. He probably smoked pot or did drugs when he created tatu. Just because we are seeing it now does not mean that he is more of a drug addict.

Ivan is definitely not the only person responsible for tatu. He did however organize everything! He got songwriters, managers (Lena Kipper), etc. and created tatu. Creating a project like that is a big thing and requires a lot of hard work and responsibility. Sure, Ivan has probably made some mistakes. I'm not saying that they are not huge mistakes but I don't think that it is impossible to recover from those mistakes.

Anyway, maybe tatu can survive without Ivan but I don't think that they should. When the Spice Girls left their manager, that was the stupidest move! Their business plumeted and they fell apart. Tatu already colaborated with that other famous American producer when producing the English album so he might be an option. However, Ivan comes up with great ideas. This reality show is an amusing idea. He also came up with using those 'fcuk war' t-shirts.

Also, without the name tatu, I don't think tatu have much of a chance of surviving. Tatu and Taty is a brand. Take away the brand and you are left with two okay singers. If they were to drop the name, they would have to re-introduce a new name which would be risky. Could you imagine if "The Spice Girls" were called anything else? Or if Eminem just called himself, "George"? Or if Madonna said that she wanted to be referred to as Frances?

Lux
17-02-2004, 04:17
Originally posted by haku
That's why Ivan is responsible, he's the one who created the image! The whole concept of the project is based on lies and deception. Ivan just probably saw some Japanese animes and realized that having two real flesh teenage girls showing panties and making out would be a great sell, and it worked very well, beyond his wildest expectations i'm sure. The message of tolerance for same-sex couples was fake, just an unvoluntary side effect of showing two schoolgirls making out, but it was never the main goal of the project. The main goal was simply to sell a band using one of the most common fantasies: cute teenage girls kissing and groping each other.
The problem is, Ivan never planned what he would do when the girls would grow up, the girls are too old now, they don't fit in the uniforms anymore, the actresses refuse to play any longer, the fantasy and the message are dead.

the idea is his, but marketing, publicity, and knowledge of the music industry in general? ivan was not experienced. as i've said before, it was easy at first when popularity was high, just follow the motions of giving what people want. i don't see how almost nonexistent music business experience coupled with his idea of two girls loving each other and carrying a message equals lies and deceit.
i don't agree with you in that ivan was just using that to sell. in russia, people didnt buy that, they never defended themselves as "oh we're lesbians/not lesbians" in their native country. the russians loved the music and found the image amusing.

if that is such a common fantasy, why didn't it sell in the west? it barely sold in the united states, where men are completely obsessed with girl on girl action. i'm sure its similar across the planet except no one uses it blatantly as a marketable image.
i agree with the latter portion - the girls are growing up and ivan didn't really think about the repercussions of when that would occur. the documentary goes along with that, they've got other lives that weren't expected by some and their own ideas of their future. they've shed the school girl uniforms, naivete [perhaps still a little there but they are more learned in the ways of the world], and innocence [perhaps that was more natural than anything].
in that sense, i've lost most of my train of thought and shall resort to silence and bitterness. :coctail: :none:

angeljas01
17-02-2004, 04:24
Thanks for the info. Sunny!

LenochkaO
17-02-2004, 04:53
Originally posted by dollparts3000
Tatu already colaborated with that other famous American producer when producing the English album so he might be an option.

Isn't Trevor Horn British? :ithink: :confused:

Originally posted by sunny poison
May be this whole thing is just the way to shake Ivan and return him back to reality.


An alternative meaning of "reality show"?

Kate
17-02-2004, 06:11
haku, The message of tolerance for same-sex couples was fake, just an unvoluntary side effect of showing two schoolgirls making out, but it was never the main goal of the project. Never the less, some people still believe they are lesbians and have a message for the world and blah and blah and blah....

denial
17-02-2004, 06:26
The messages are genuine .. why not .. its like watching movie .. it inspires you .. what make you feel after that .. those are acting ..

RowerB
17-02-2004, 06:40
Originally posted by Lux
they don't have enough charisma to go solo,
I think Yulia is the most charismatic thing on the planet.

Originally posted by sunny poison
well... first of all BOTH girls want to continue their singing careers... and they don't mind doing it together. At least it looks so.
Thanks for that sunny poison, and the reports. Hopefully they can continue as tatu.

irish22
17-02-2004, 06:52
thanks for the news sunny man i can not believe pasha like van dam he can not act and i met him and he is such a dork lol and he is a really big womanizer to

Lena410
17-02-2004, 06:54
thanks for the report sunny poison!! :rose:

well the only thing that puzzles me is that all of them seemed to agree that tatu have great potential...thats the exact opposite of everything I have been hearing up to now...I do think that they still have a chance...maybe I'm naive but I frankly don't care :D

spyretto
17-02-2004, 07:15
...crying for attention : let me remind you the video shooting for Show Me Love - where is it after all? all this fuss and nothing at the end - Eurovision, and all the silly rumours of putting on a sex show. the documentary - look, we don't cry for attention just wanna disappoint our fans - the reality show - hey we're gonna record an album lets put it live on air - oh wait, it doesn't seem we're gona record it after all. Tatu wouldn't give a dime about the show and I don't blame them. Naked bridge parade anyone? Scandals on Japanese tv show. Cancelled concerts everywhere. 200 teenage girls wearing school uniforms on stage. Fights with photographers ;)

Was all that low key? Or maybe a desperate attempt to remain in the spotlight by consensating for the deficiency -or lack - of their musical material ?

Anyway, quite interesting thoughts expressed here, variations of those things we knew from the beginning. Cause they didn't try to conceal anything.

What matters is now. Now things are pretty diri-diri-daua.

Tatu reminds me of the Soviet Union. Everything is strict and rigid at first, then perestroika comes and all hell breaks lose. And now we finally know the truth.
It's all about the money, dum dum da ra ram dum...

And it surely ain't funny...

Rob
17-02-2004, 12:15
... The message of tolerance for same-sex couples was fake, just an unvoluntary side effect of showing two schoolgirls making out, but it was never the main goal of the project. ...
The message worked and that's the important part of it, no matter what lies beneath.
No one can expect that someone standing up for tolerance is jewish, black or gay himself.
They made a difference and that counts.

Even though some people would love to turn the clock back and all those who came out or started living their lives as they wanted to would go back in the closet, shut up and stay alone for the rest of their lives or marry the "traditional" way and so on.

It doesn't matter whether Y/L were a couple or not, we believe in the message of a movie knowing well that it's not reality we see.

I'm thankful for what they did and I don't give a damn what they do in private, same goes for Ivan, even though looking at Pasha reminds me of the Placebo song "Change your taste in men" - but that's not really my business.

xena225
17-02-2004, 12:49
Originally posted by Rob
The message worked and that's the important part of it, no matter what lies beneath.
No one can expect that someone standing up for tolerance is jewish, black or gay himself.
They made a difference and that counts.

Even though some people would love to turn the clock back and all those who came out or started living their lives as they wanted to would go back in the closet, shut up and stay alone for the rest of their lives or marry the "traditional" way and so on.

It doesn't matter whether Y/L were a couple or not, we believe in the message of a movie knowing well that it's not reality we see.


Very cool, Rob! :done:

Perceptive, clever and eloquent as ususal. *applauds*

xena225

haku
17-02-2004, 13:53
Originally posted by Rob
Even though some people would love to turn the clock back and all those who came out or started living their lives as they wanted to would go back in the closet, shut up and stay alone for the rest of their lives or marry the "traditional" way and so on.
Exactly! Some people are now regreting to have come out because of Tatu, they are considering going back in the closet (and it's possible when you are young, you can always say "It was just a phase", people around them will be delighted to believe that). It's not good!

Yes, Tatu made a difference, but for only a few months, it could have been so much longer. I'm not saying they should have continued to pretend of course, making a difference on the long run would have required that the girls were really gay in the first place. The project was doomed to fail from the beginning because of that fakeness, of course it never mattered to Ivan because making a difference was never a goal of the project.

And i already said it, but for young fans, seeing Y&L transforming from two teenage gay girls to two adult straight women is so damaging! It's like a living cliche! The image they give now is "It's ok for girls to experiment with other girls when they are teenagers, but once adult women they have to switch to men."

Unplugged
17-02-2004, 14:24
Originally posted by haku
Exactly! Some people are now regreting to have come out because of Tatu, they are considering going back in the closet (and it's possible when you are young, you can always say "It was just a phase", people around them will be delighted to believe that). It's not good!

Yes, Tatu made a difference, but for only a few months, it could have been so much longer. I'm not saying they should have continued to pretend of course, making a difference on the long run would have required that the girls were really gay in the first place. The project was doomed to fail from the beginning because of that fakeness, of course it never mattered to Ivan because making a difference was never a goal of the project.

And i already said it, but for young fans, seeing Y&L transforming from two teenage gay girls to two adult straight women is so damaging! It's like a living cliche! The image they give now is "It's ok for girls to experiment with other girls when they are teenagers, but once adult women they have to switch to men."

Unfortunately, you're totally right.
This is really sad. :none:
I can understand why Rachel (Real_Lesbian) got so upset. She came out to her parents because of t.A.T.u. - and then she sees they were faking :none:

Rob
17-02-2004, 14:42
Some people are now regreting to have come out because of Tatu, they are considering going back in the closet ...
Everyone needs time to accept who they are, if they already made the step out, they are able to get more strength and belief in themselves.
They won't turn their whole lives back just because Y/L are in a f/m relationship.


Gay-icons like Melissa Etheridge, who obviously didn't think Y/L were gay, didn't have any problem with tATu.

Lena410
17-02-2004, 14:52
Rob, I agree with you. They have/had the right message. It changed things. Honestly tatu never changed. They had those we have bfs one day and we are lesbian the other day talks all along. They never started something they didn't finish. People just saw what they wanted to see and still do.

simon
17-02-2004, 15:18
Originally posted by haku
The whole concept of the project is based on lies and deception. Ivan just probably saw some Japanese animes and realized that having two real flesh teenage girls showing panties and making out would be a great sell, and it worked very well, beyond his wildest expectations i'm sure. The message of tolerance for same-sex couples was fake, just an unvoluntary side effect of showing two schoolgirls making out, but it was never the main goal of the project. The main goal was simply to sell a band using one of the most common fantasies: cute teenage girls kissing and groping each other.


The main fan base was teenage girls, not dirty older men (that's only here on Tatysite :heh: ). I think the explanation for their success is the one Ivan gave in the Ptyuch interview - two girls in love is the most emotionally powerful image and it plays on the secret fantasies of teenage girls.

There was more to the 'message' than tolerance of same-sex relationships. If you went deeper, it was more existentialist, lesbianism was used as a metaphor. Anatomy's portrayal of Yulia showed this perfectly: she was an existentialist hero, unafraid to explore her sexuality, prepared to take heroin just to make a point about personal choice over addiction, even prepared to lay down her voice and career for her country! It was about making brave choices, not giving a damn about consequences.

That doesn't mean the message was genuine. But the deep message was quite well-developed in some of Ivan's interviews (particularly with Malcolm McLaren in The Face) and in some of the songs (30 Minutes and so far as I could understand it in Ne Ver Ne Boisia). I think he probably was expressing genuine philosophical and political ideas, even though he didn't really care about gay rights per se.

Originally posted by Lux

i don't agree with you in that ivan was just using that to sell. in russia, people didnt buy that, they never defended themselves as "oh we're lesbians/not lesbians" in their native country. the russians loved the music and found the image amusing.

if that is such a common fantasy, why didn't it sell in the west? it barely sold in the united states, where men are completely obsessed with girl on girl action. i'm sure its similar across the planet except no one uses it blatantly as a marketable image.

This is a fascinating point. I thought about your question and my theory is that Tatu's popularity was inversely proportional to how seriously people take sex. Anglo-Saxons, and particularly Americans, are notorious for taking sex seriously and for caring about authenticity. Most Russians, on the other hand, don't take sex so seriously or care about being lied to. The Japanese also don't take sex seriously or worry about authenticity. Most Europeans are somewhere between the Russians and the British. Anglo-Saxons generally didn't get the joke (even most of the Anglo-Saxon fans), while Russians did. Anglo-Saxons couldn't appreciate the humour because they think sex is a serious thing.

Tatu was a joke, but I think it was a joke with a point. I was reading an article in the New Yorker about the Yippies, who derived their ideas about political protest from Dadaist and Surrealist art techniques. The stunts, the use of shock tactics, the joking are all reminscent to me of avant-garde art.

Originally posted by Lena410
Rob, I agree with you. They have/had the right message. It changed things. Honestly tatu never changed. They had those we have bfs one day and we are lesbian the other day talks all along. They never started something they didn't finish. People just saw what they wanted to see and still do.

I think that is very true. The trouble was that people took it too seriously.

What shocked me, though, was Lena saying in Anatomy that she thought what they were doing was sinful. I thought that was very damaging.

xena225
17-02-2004, 15:30
Originally posted by Rob
They won't turn their whole lives back just because Y/L are in a f/m relationship.

Who's the woman (f) and who's the man (m), I wonder? Despite Lena's long hair and her womanly curves, and despite Yulia's tomboyish good looks and her incessant swearing, I'd nevertheless say Lena=M and Yulia=F ? I could be wrong, though. *goes to ponder this*

:lol: :laugh:

xena225

Lena410
17-02-2004, 15:48
Originally posted by simon
What shocked me, though, was Lena saying in Anatomy that she thought what they were doing was sinful. I thought that was very damaging.

Did she say that she thought what they were doing as tatu was sinful? I always thought that she said that in a neutral context. She could have meant her whole life being sinful. I never quite understood how she meant that so I never was that much bothered with it. I mean I can't judge a statement when I don't understand it.

xena :lol: Lena is not the man *shakes head* no way *laughs*

xena225
17-02-2004, 15:55
Originally posted by Lena410
Did she say that she thought what they were doing as tatu was sinful? I always thought that she said that in a neutral context. She could have meant her whole life being sinful.

Yes, the context was quite unclear. I agree with your assessment. :done:

xena225

P.S. Lena is SO the "man". Don't let the boobs fool you. :lol: :lol:

denial
17-02-2004, 16:55
Originally posted by simon
That doesn't mean the message was genuine.

Well .. English is my third language .. :lalala:

Lena looked like a 'man' in Japan ..

thegurgi
17-02-2004, 17:11
Sigh, i can't believe you're all back in that discussion again.


:: rolls eyes and backs away ::

I don't need to get involved in this....

skye
17-02-2004, 18:05
Originally posted by xena225

P.S. Lena is SO the "man". Don't let the boobs fool you. :lol: :lol:

:lol: :lol: LMAO :lol: :lol: the funnest joke I have heard today :lol:

nikki
17-02-2004, 23:12
I can't believe we are having this discussion again, either. I would like to know why the girls lied so often though. The interview Lena gave after Eurovision (on Radio 1, UK) was quite something ! To me that means there is no real message or inspiration for young gay women left. They could have said they were going through a phase and moved on with some dignity. One more lie wouldn't have made much difference !

As for this reality show ... Just remember they were No 1 here this time last year. Just what has happened ?!

Thanks Kat for your translations and everyone else of course.

simon
17-02-2004, 23:19
Originally posted by nikki
I can't believe we are having this discussion again, either. I would like to know why the girls lied so often though. The interview Lena gave after Eurovision (on Radio 1, UK) was quite something ! To me that means there is no real message or inspiration for young gay women left. They could have said they were going through a phase and moved on with some dignity. One more lie wouldn't have made much difference !


What did Lena say in the interview on Radio 1?

rANdoMtATuFaN
17-02-2004, 23:56
Yeah...I was always confused by what Lena meant too. I was never sure if she meant the life they were living - like the lies and deception or something else.

I must say, I find all this amusing. I mean they were always vague and never gave straight (no pun intended) answers. And, to me, they're still being pretty vague - like they're playing us. Also, the whole message thing - yeah, it always existed and still kinda does - the reasons behind it doesn't matter; just the fact that it's there. So, I think ppl should stop over analyzing these things too much and just sit back and enjoy.

* If you think about it, it's pretty funny. * :done:

(BTW, I think the lack of success in the west was the fault of the media)

- Just my opinion...I'll go back to my shell :dknow:

haku
18-02-2004, 02:04
Gay fans may not be more important than straight fans, and both gay fans and straight fans were hurt by the events of those last months, but gay fans were hurt to a much deeper level.

Some gay fans *did* come out because of Tatu, they were looking up to them as role models, they thought Yulia and Lena had been through what they were going through, showing them that it was possible to live your gay love openly like straight people do (and it can mean something as simple as holding hands in the street despite the fear that it may trigger a violent reaction from people around you). Those fans took a huge blow when they realized that their role models were fake, that they had never experienced themselves what they were talking about (Lena talking about the problems they had with their parents because of their relationship... what a mean joke!).

Now i know that some of you think that those fans have only themselves to blame, they shouldn't have believed such an "obvious" joke, they only saw what they wanted to see and for you Yulia and Lena were in fact always "honest" in their ambiguity.
Think what you want, it remains that those fans are *still* deeply hurt and sometimes even more confused than they were before they knew Tatu. Those fans were often alone, struggling with their sexuality with no one to talk to about it, Tatu was for them a window that showed them that there was some hope, now they feel that they are back in the dark.



As for homosexuality becoming more acceptable, well, a gay man was burn alive because he was gay a few weeks ago here. There is still a long way to go, and Tatu certainly aren't helping anymore.

freddie
18-02-2004, 02:14
Originally posted by simon
The main fan base was teenage girls, not dirty older men (that's only here on Tatysite :heh: ). I think the explanation for their success is the one Ivan gave in the Ptyuch interview - two girls in love is the most emotionally powerful image and it plays on the secret fantasies of teenage girls.

Teenage girls? Were they? I think the genious idea behind the project was always it's appeals to ALL the layers of society. Literaly everybody could find something for themselves, something to indentify with. Yes they were oriented towards teenagers (I wouldn't say that towards girls per se), but not more so then any other artificialy made pop band (infact I think that even less so.)

Lux
18-02-2004, 02:19
simon - i see your point. i wonder whether americans take sex seriously AND are obsessed with it..that leaves no room for ambiguousl-queer-but-not-anymore pop duos :heh:

xena - LMFAOOO@your joke.


i agree with denial the message is clear, doesn't matter what kind of agent carried it, like a movie. although as much as i used to want to believe they might have been partially genuine, i still think they had a pretty close relationship.

Lena410
18-02-2004, 10:14
Originally posted by xena225
Lena is SO the "man". Don't let the boobs fool you. :lol: :lol:

:lol: :p she's not :p :gigi: yuls the man *nods* believe me :lol:

simon
18-02-2004, 14:26
Originally posted by haku
Gay fans may not be more important than straight fans, and both gay fans and straight fans were hurt by the events of those last months, but gay fans were hurt to a much deeper level.

Some gay fans *did* come out because of Tatu, they were looking up to them as role models, they thought Yulia and Lena had been through what they were going through, showing them that it was possible to live your gay love openly like straight people do (and it can mean something as simple as holding hands in the street despite the fear that it may trigger a violent reaction from people around you). Those fans took a huge blow when they realized that their role models were fake, that they had never experienced themselves what they were talking about (Lena talking about the problems they had with their parents because of their relationship... what a mean joke!).

Now i know that some of you think that those fans have only themselves to blame, they shouldn't have believed such an "obvious" joke, they only saw what they wanted to see and for you Yulia and Lena were in fact always "honest" in their ambiguity.
Think what you want, it remains that those fans are *still* deeply hurt and sometimes even more confused than they were before they knew Tatu. Those fans were often alone, struggling with their sexuality with no one to talk to about it, Tatu was for them a window that showed them that there was some hope, now they feel that they are back in the dark.


I think this is a real moral problem. That was why many people thought Tatu were dodgy. They felt that pretending to be gay when they weren't was unprincipled and dangerous.

I always felt uneasy about Tatu for that reason. I could see that when the truth came out in the end, people would be hurt. However, I thought that would happen AFTER Tatu finished. I didn't expect them to dramatically unmask themselves like they did in Anatomy. I therefore thought any damage would be quite limited.

I also felt they had a get-out. They kept saying that their sexual orientation didn't matter, they were so deliberately ambiguous and kept hinting they weren't, they talked about having boyfriends and that they might go back to men. The message seemed to be that sex and sexual orientation weren't such a big deal.

What Lena said on Anatomy was what was so particularly damaging.

1. Maybe, just maybe, she wasn't referring to the promotion of a homosexuality as being sinful. But it was a very obvious implication given the context that she was seeing a Russian Orthodox priest - Russian Orthodoxy thinks homosexual activity is a particularly serious sin. To think that's not the impression that most people will have got is to close your mind to unwelcome thoughts. It's obvious that's how people would take it and they must have known that when they released the film.

2. Talking about sin at all meant that she didn't believe in Tatu's message. Even if what she thought was sinful was say the sexual explicitness, rather than the homosexual content (but she unaccountably forgot to say so), it was a renunciation of the pro-sexual freedom, anti-guilt message. It meant she wasn't sincere about Tatu's message.

It's one thing for Tatu not to be gay if they believe the message. It's another thing for Tatu not to be gay if Lena at least doesn't believe the message.

Rob
18-02-2004, 20:20
As Melissa Etheridge didn't have any problems with tATu, even though she obviously didn't believe in Y/L being gay, I'd suggest some user here should give her a call and teach her about lesbian issues.

haku
18-02-2004, 20:45
Good for her but so? The fact that Melissa Etheridge didn't have a problem with Tatu is not of any help to the young fans who are upset. She's not the one talking to them, but i'll pass your suggestion to give her a call, i'm sure that'll be a great comfort to them.

xena225
18-02-2004, 20:54
Originally posted by Rob
As Melissa Etheridge didn't have any problems with tATu, even though she obviously didn't believe in Y/L being gay, I'd suggest some user here should give her a call and teach her about lesbian issues.

:lol: :lol: :laugh:

Ahem.

Lena and Yulia were and still are great champions of loving who you want to love, not giving a damn what people might think, and laughing in the faces of all the narrow-minded people of this world (no matter what their own preferences are). Despite constant attempts to undermine their credibility, to me they still are all of this, and nothing they have said, nothing at all, leads me to believe that this has changed in any way.

xena225

EDIT to say:
Sorry for being off-topic. :grustno:

Lena410
18-02-2004, 20:58
I agree with xena225. For one I always thought that for tatu really living their message they would have to be bisexual, because they wanted to show that *all* kinds of love where good as long as it was love.

Honestly I understand people being hurt. But there are also some people who are not hurt. And continuing to hurt each other won't help anyone.

Unplugged
18-02-2004, 21:21
Lena and Yulia were and still are great champions of loving who you want to love, not giving a damn what people might think, and laughing in the faces of all the narrow-minded people of this world

Yes. Lena, for example, seems to be very open-minded.

She's against the legalization of marijuana and she thinks that what they do on stage are sins.

haku
18-02-2004, 21:29
Originally posted by xena225
:lol: :lol: :laugh:
I'll be sure to pass those kind words too, very comforting.

Originally posted by Lena410
they would have to be bisexual
Would have indeed, but they never said they were. They both admit freely that they have boyfriends now, but we've never had any indication that any of them ever had a girlfriend.

Unplugged
18-02-2004, 21:40
we've never had any indication that any of them ever had a girlfriend.

what? :eek: but they were always in love with each other! :rolleyes: can't you see?

Yulia: Lena is like the sun - she always makes everything around her warmer.
She's the person whom it's natural to have by my side.

And they're gonna get married and have kids too. I know this thing Yulia has for Pasha is just a phase - she's confused, poor girl. It was that awful press that led her to turn straight for a while, of course she was always Lena's girlfriend! :p

Everything they do stems from their love. For example, Yulia masturbating.

:lol:

simon
18-02-2004, 23:01
Originally posted by xena225
Originally posted by Rob
As Melissa Etheridge didn't have any problems with tATu, even though she obviously didn't believe in Y/L being gay, I'd suggest some user here should give her a call and teach her about lesbian issues.

lol: :lol: :laugh:

I think this is an example of the famously subtle Teutonic sense of humour that for some reason isn't widely appreciated outside Germany and Austria.

Conversely, I believe that for instance Russian joking isn't well understood in Germany and Austria.

Rob
19-02-2004, 02:38
Originally posted by simon
I think this is an example of the famously subtle Teutonic sense of humour that for some reason isn't widely appreciated outside Germany and Austria.

Conversely, I believe that for instance Russian joking isn't well understood in Germany and Austria. [/B]
Well, and I think this is an example for what I would call lack of humour.

By the way who tells you that I am "teutonic"?!
Living in Germany doesn't mean being "teutonic".

Glad I know now that you're one of "those" for whom nationality means certain qualities and such... gotta look out and fulfill all your expectations from now on... ;)

simon
19-02-2004, 03:02
Originally posted by Rob
Well, and I think this is an example for what I would call lack of humour.


Rob, I was making a joke. I'm sorry that you didn't understand my English sense of humour. :D

P.S. "Teutonic" is the English adjective to refer to something relating to both Germany and Austria.

Rob
19-02-2004, 03:08
Originally posted by simon
Rob, I was making a joke. I'm sorry that you didn't understand my English sense of humour. :D
simon, What a coincidence, everybody joking in here but that's way better than coming up with national stereotypics anyway. ;)

P.S. Just in case your additional remark is directed at me - "teutonic" (teutonisch) isn't exactly a word being used here these days when speaking about supposed "characteristics" of Germany/Germans - doesn't fit and kinda "old-fashioned" to put it mildly. whatever... :D

coolasfcuk
19-02-2004, 03:17
OK guys, no more 'jokes' ;)

denial
19-02-2004, 06:24
Originally posted by staringelf
Yes. Lena, for example, seems to be very open-minded.

She's against the legalization of marijuana and she thinks that what they do on stage are sins.

YES!! I love it when she smokes in the picture, in the video, and she admitted that she smokes, and when people tell she should quit, she said she tried but its not easy .. but other people should stop smoking .. :lol: ..she so cute ...

my type of girl ... :love:

:smoke:

Lena410
19-02-2004, 07:05
Originally posted by haku
Would have indeed, but they never said they were. They both admit freely that they have boyfriends now, but we've never had any indication that any of them ever had a girlfriend.

they never did? hm...did I just imagine that article *ponders* honestly I forgot but I was sure that they, Lena at least, said at least twice that they weren't lesbians but bisexual. hm..maybe wishful thinking :gigi:
well up to pasha we never really had a real indication that they had boyfriends either. Plus I think they wanted to make up for that with their "we love each other" speeches. *shrugs*

staringelf no matter what you say that Lena said I do think that she *is* open-minded. If she weren't than she would have reacted differently to that man who came to their autograph sighning dressed as a woman.

haku
19-02-2004, 08:41
Originally posted by Lena410
Lena at least, said at least twice that they weren't lesbians but bisexual. hm..maybe wishful thinking
I don't think she ever used the word bisexual, i don't even remember her ever saying the word girlfriend (except maybe on stage but well, they are on stage, so it doesn't matter since they are performing their act).
But believe me, nothing would make me happier than a bisexual Lena! I'm not closed to the idea, far from it! :D But i'll need to see/hear something that looks/sounds genuine.

xena225
19-02-2004, 09:16
Originally posted by Lena410
they never did? hm...did I just imagine that article *ponders* honestly I forgot but I was sure that they, Lena at least, said at least twice that they weren't lesbians but bisexual. hm..maybe wishful thinking :gigi:

Not exactly wishful thinking, Lena410. :done:

I wonder why some people are so incredibly opposed to them being bisexual. *goes to ponder the possible reasons for this*

xena225

Lena410
19-02-2004, 16:23
haku, I never heard her say the world gf on stage either *lol* but I didnt understand anything at the concert so that coul be the reason *grins*
well I know that there was an interview with them..I think a polish one..and I think that lena said bisexual in there...plus I think they said it while in slovakia

xena225, depends on how you look at it :done: :p

rANdoMtATuFaN
19-02-2004, 22:01
Lena410 - I think I remember that. It was a while ago...I'll have to go find it.

BTW, I think Lena is extremely open-minded. She wouldn't do what she does if she wasn't.

Lux
20-02-2004, 05:32
not this debate again.

although i used to think yulia was highly sexual and thus likely to be bi/open, i always thought lena to be into girls. now, yulia is straight. she's not into girls, not at all. it's not that the more i think about her having a boyfriend the straighter she gets, it's just that, everything is clear: she's not into girls, at least, not into other girls. what thick blanket of delusion ivan has pulled over my eyes only to rip it away at the most crucial moment. :rolleyes:

it's weird, when i go back to watching video clips/interviews, i STILL resort to thinking they're attracted to each other/to girls in general. they must've been SUCH good acters. :rolleyes:


:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:
:none:

freddie
20-02-2004, 08:20
Originally posted by Lux
it's weird, when i go back to watching video clips/interviews, i STILL resort to thinking they're attracted to each other/to girls in general. they must've been SUCH good acters. :rolleyes:


I know what you mean! I mean some of those old vids... I could SWEAR that something was there. You remember that Michael Jackson - Lisa Marie Presley kiss at the MTC VMA's like 10 years ago? Now THAT was fake. Not this. Sheesh. :p

denial
20-02-2004, 10:30
Originally posted by Lux
it's weird, when i go back to watching video clips/interviews, i STILL resort to thinking they're attracted to each other/to girls in general. they must've been SUCH good acters. :rolleyes:


hooo ... :grustno: ...its even worst in my case .. now.. you see I like that song STARS very much .. no matter what... I like it .. I like it .. so I listen to it everytime when I drive .. usually repeating repeating .. now .. when I notice the lyric sometimes when I stuck in trafic jam or anything .. its not Yulia and Lena anymore ... its Ivan and Lena Kiper .. love story .. ::::cries::::

Even the song become straight!!! ::::criessss:::

febrika
20-02-2004, 11:10
*off to watch ripptyd-everything video*
-convince herself that there gotta be somethin between y&l-

xena225
20-02-2004, 12:15
Originally posted by febrika
*off to watch ripptyd-everything video*
-convince herself that there gotta be somethin between y&l-

LOL Hey, trust your eyes, trust your feelings, febrika. ;)

Lux, what about Yulia snogging that girl in St. Petersburg (according to Mad Debz?) How many straight girls you know would do that kind of thing? (Please don't say all of them... :lol: ) Anyway... I'm just saying... *winks* And not to keep repeating myself all the time: But didn't Yulia say in the documentary that because of her participation in tATu she discovered she had feelings for girls as well? Anyway: Everyone draws their own conclusions from what they read and see and so on, but even though we may think we know everything about Yulia Volkova, we should keep in mind that we DON'T actually, and speculations about her exact sexual preferences are just that: speculations. :)

xena225

denial
20-02-2004, 13:21
so.. xena225, do you like the way I speculate ? :lady: ..

:lalala:

cirrus
20-02-2004, 18:18
but even though we may think we know everything about Yulia Volkova, we should keep in mind that we DON'T actually, and speculations about her exact sexual preferences are just that: speculations.

But I have to ask:

Does it really matter? :p


Personally, I don't care if she's gay or Chinese. Her preference means nothing to me.

simon
21-02-2004, 01:37
Originally posted by xena225
Lux, what about Yulia snogging that girl in St. Petersburg (according to Mad Debz?) How many straight girls you know would do that kind of thing? (Please don't say all of them... :lol: ) Anyway... I'm just saying... *winks* And not to keep repeating myself all the time: But didn't Yulia say in the documentary that because of her participation in tATu she discovered she had feelings for girls as well? Anyway: Everyone draws their own conclusions from what they read and see and so on, but even though we may think we know everything about Yulia Volkova, we should keep in mind that we DON'T actually, and speculations about her exact sexual preferences are just that: speculations. :)

I agree with xena about this! *members of tatysite faint in astonishment*

Not just that we don't really know, but that there are things to support the idea that Yulia isn't entirely straight.

It is of course perfectly possible that Yulia was only snogging the girl in St Petersburg for show and only said that she had feelings for girls in order to keep a little bit of the Tatu image alive. I did find the dream about Lena rather too transparent to be true.

The thing that made me think she could indeed not be entirely straight (I just assumed she was straight as soon as I saw the first YSSU video, such an old cynic am I), was what she said in the Ptyuch interview. The story about her parents' reactions only seemed to make sense if YSSU had been a joke and Yulia was straight, but the hidden irony was that Yulia had later realised she liked girls. The fact that Yulia's account in Anatomy matches with what I had deduced months earlier from Ptyuch seems too much of a coincidence to be a coincidence.

Originally posted by Lux
although i used to think yulia was highly sexual and thus likely to be bi/open, i always thought lena to be into girls. now, yulia is straight. she's not into girls, not at all. it's not that the more i think about her having a boyfriend the straighter she gets, it's just that, everything is clear: she's not into girls, at least, not into other girls. what thick blanket of delusion ivan has pulled over my eyes only to rip it away at the most crucial moment. :rolleyes:

The strongest evidence that Yulia really is straight is not that she has a boyfriend, it's that it's Pasha. I mean, you would have to be very strongly oriented to men to even begin to think that Pasha was attractive. :grustno:

However, Pasha is so unattractive to everyone else that Yulia simply can't have chosen him because she found him so incredibly physically attractive - surely nobody has such weird tastes. What his appeal is remains a mystery to me. One suggestion I've heard is that he reminds Yulia of her father - a strong, simple man.

I can't quite imagine how anybody could be so straight that faced with a choice between two people that they had feelings for: Pasha and Masha Tsigal (who presumably was the girl she referred to - five translators say it was another girl, only elf says it was Lena) they would choose Pasha. But then I can't quite imagine how faced with a choice between Pasha and other men, Yulia would choose Pasha.

denial
21-02-2004, 02:17
The TATU at Yulia's back said "haiyam" .. it meant only for a girl ..


The strongest evidence that Yulia really is straight is not that she has a boyfriend, it's that it's Pasha. I mean, you would have to be very strongly oriented to men to even begin to think that Pasha was attractive

Sincerely .... I think Pasha is cute .. and the picture he hugging Yulia from the back looks very nice. They look like perfect couple to me.


*is questioning her own sexuality now* :rolleyes:

xena225
21-02-2004, 02:46
Originally posted by denial
so.. xena225, do you like the way I speculate ? :lady: ..


Do you mean the things you said about "Stars"?

Hm, well, even if Yulia and Lena were the straightest of the straight *cough* :laugh: --- the group t.A.T.u. is definitely not a straight group. The "project t.A.T.u." is build around a friendship between two girls which developed into love. The performances, the image of t.A.T.u. (which not only shows a romantic ideal, but also the sexual and sensual aspects of it) reflect this, as do most of the songs - All The Things She Said, Not Gonna Get Us address the issue very clearly, as does Show Me Love and also - in my opinion - Stars. I'm not gonna go into the whole "What is t.A.T.u." debate now, but to answer your implied question - no, the meaning of the songs hasn't changed for me at all.

Everything is fine, denial. :rose:

xena225

freddie
21-02-2004, 04:43
Originally posted by simon
The thing that made me think she could indeed not be entirely straight (I just assumed she was straight as soon as I saw the first YSSU video, such an old cynic am I), was what she said in the Ptyuch interview. The story about her parents' reactions only seemed to make sense if YSSU had been a joke and Yulia was straight, but the hidden irony was that Yulia had later realised she liked girls. The fact that Yulia's account in Anatomy matches with what I had deduced months earlier from Ptyuch seems too much of a coincidence to be a coincidence.

LMAO!! You stole that from ME! It was me who claimed that all along on tatu.us and even BEFORE that, on tatysite.net (from the first moment I ever read that interview I was almost sure Yulia was bi) and you always kept dismissing that argument saying that the interview was not valid cause Ivan and Yulia were both just toying with the interviewer with their sarcastic ways. Oh what difference a day makes. :rolleyes:


Originally posted by simon
The strongest evidence that Yulia really is straight is not that she has a boyfriend, it's that it's Pasha. I mean, you would have to be very strongly oriented to men to even begin to think that Pasha was attractive. :grustno:

However, Pasha is so unattractive to everyone else that Yulia simply can't have chosen him because she found him so incredibly physically attractive - surely nobody has such weird tastes. What his appeal is remains a mystery to me. One suggestion I've heard is that he reminds Yulia of her father - a strong, simple man.

I can't quite imagine how anybody could be so straight that faced with a choice between two people that they had feelings for: Pasha and Masha Tsigal (who presumably was the girl she referred to - five translators say it was another girl, only elf says it was Lena) they would choose Pasha. But then I can't quite imagine how faced with a choice between Pasha and other men, Yulia would choose Pasha.

This is such a feble argument. Firstly... beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You can never categoricaly say which person would be pleasing to another regardless of the body features nor gender. This might be even a bit more complicated for bisexual people who may look for male characteristics on a man and female characteristic on a woman. So those two might be COMPLETELY different kind of sexual attractions.
Another point: the attraction to a person is not skin-deep. When we feel attracted to a person, it's the attraction towards their whole persona. Attraction can't be explained simply by aestetical sense of what is considered beautiful. It's so much more then that.

A practical example that shaters THAT theory: Angelina Jolie is bisexual. She dated Billy Bob Thornton. Enough said. :p

QueenBee
21-02-2004, 05:22
I agree with you Freddie. :rose: Maybe there is something wonderful Yulia sees in Pasha, and in my opinion, he's not so bad looking. Judging from that picture where they were hugging eachother they both look happy AND cute together. I don't think we will know what that "appeal" is (why Yulia likes Pasha, erm) but I'm not sure if Yulia knows herself. I mean, when you're in love with a person you're not in love with something about them in particular, the whole package is wonderful. And besides, we have never met Pasha (Don't know if any of you have, but I'm guessing not by the way you speak about him) so we can't really say if he's an awful man. He might be really nice you know, and he's not so bad looking, so Yulia doesn't have a "weird taste", she just has A taste, and you have ANOTHER. About the documentary, well, I'm not even gonna LISTEN to what they said there! :eek: Wasn't it manipulated? Yeah, the parts we didn't like were manipulated, but when Yulia says she likes girls then OF COURSE it's true. :rolleyes:

thegurgi
21-02-2004, 06:20
Hey, what about David Cooperfield and Claudia Schiffer [or however you spelled her name]...

But i agree with what Cirrus said, who cares really?

taty994945
21-02-2004, 09:17
what about David Cooperfield and Claudia Schiffer

Is David ugly? I can't remember what he looks like.

Celtic Jobber
21-02-2004, 09:30
Originally posted by taty994945
Is David ugly? I can't remember what he looks like.

Here's a pic of David Copperfield. (http://www.bienet.com/david_copperfield.jpg) What do you think? :none:

taty994945
21-02-2004, 09:41
I give him 7 out of 10.

QueenBee
21-02-2004, 10:12
He's not bad at all! He looks kinda like Haku.. :spy:

simon
21-02-2004, 11:26
Originally posted by freddie
LMAO!! You stole that from ME! It was me who claimed that all along on tatu.us and even BEFORE that, on tatysite.net (from the first moment I ever read that interview I was almost sure Yulia was bi) and you always kept dismissing that argument saying that the interview was not valid cause Ivan and Yulia were both just toying with the interviewer with their sarcastic ways. Oh what difference a day makes. :rolleyes:

Freddie, your recollection is wrong. Read page 5 of "Are they lesbians?" on tatu.us again (I told you to before when you made the same false accusation and you refused). I presented an argument that the structure of Yulia's anecdote was such that it only made sense for her to have said if she really did like girls. If you don't believe me, read what I wrote. Stop making this false accusation.

This is such a feble argument. Firstly... beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You can never categoricaly say which person would be pleasing to another regardless of the body features nor gender.

Of course you can't! Did I deny that Yulia found Pasha attractive? What I was saying was that Pasha wasn't someobody people generally would find attractive, so his appeal must be based on something other than physical appearance.

People's rankings of the physical appearance of different people from photos correlate highly. What differs much more is whether or not they pass the level of being considered attractive. Some people have different tastes from others, but studies have shown that rankings generally don't differ very much.

Very attractive people sometimes pick people who are less physically attractive because of some other characteristic about them that really appeals. Once a strong emotional connection is made on the basis of that the hormone oxytocin then makes them fall in love and find the person physically attractive.

I understand this intellectually, I just find it a little strange because I'm one of those relatively unusual people who doesn't get that effect from oxytocin. I have fallen in love and still not found the person sexually attractive...

You have said that the fact I have a degree in psychology means I don't know anything about psychology. Actually, I do.

This might be even a bit more complicated for bisexual people who may look for male characteristics on a man and female characteristic on a woman. So those two might be COMPLETELY different kind of sexual attractions.

You think Pasha looks feminine? :p

BTW, I'm somewhat bisexual, so I don't need you to tell me about the phenomenon.

Another point: the attraction to a person is not skin-deep. When we feel attracted to a person, it's the attraction towards their whole persona. Attraction can't be explained simply by aestetical sense of what is considered beautiful. It's so much more then that.

That was the point I was making!

freddie
21-02-2004, 12:24
Originally posted by simon
Freddie, your recollection is wrong. Read page 5 of "Are they lesbians?" on tatu.us again (I told you to before when you made the same false accusation and you refused). I presented an argument that the structure of Yulia's anecdote was such that it only made sense for her to have said if she really did like girls. If you don't believe me, read what I wrote. Stop making this false accusation.
[/B]

The whole time Ptyuch was discussed you uterly denied it had ANY importance... you said that me and other ppl were blind, that we're not able to comprehend sarcasm Yulia and Ivan were throwing at us... I know for a fact that I said that this interview is an ultimate proof of Yulia's bisexuality many times (even on tatysite.net), and I distinctively remember that you CONTRADICTED me there... if you'd agree with me then there'd be no discussion would there? Or maybe you changed your opinion from page 5 till the time I came to tatu.us last summer and started contradicting yourself.

Originally posted by simon
Of course you can't! Did I deny that Yulia found Pasha attractive? What I was saying was that Pasha wasn't someobody people generally would find attractive, so his appeal must be based on something other than physical appearance.

People's rankings of the physical appearance of different people from photos correlate highly. What differs much more is whether or not they pass the level of being considered attractive. Some people have different tastes from others, but studies have shown that rankings generally don't differ very much.

Very attractive people sometimes pick people who are less physically attractive because of some other characteristic about them that really appeals. Once a strong emotional connection is made on the basis of that the hormone oxytocin then makes them fall in love and find the person physically attractive.

I understand this intellectually, I just find it a little strange because I'm one of those relatively unusual people who doesn't get that effect from oxytocin. I have fallen in love and still not found the person sexually attractive...

You have said that the fact I have a degree in psychology means I don't know anything about psychology. Actually, I do.


I don't even know what you were suggesting then. The point of your post was clearly that Yulia couldn't be bisexual since she finds attraction in such a type as Pasha is. That was what I gathered out of your post. I hope some other ppl thought the same
Simon for god sakes... put down books where you're searching for all this fun little facts about attaction, to impress us with your infinite wisdom. Attraction is such a personal thing and you talk about hormones. I realize it basicly comes down to that, but we're all subjected to the same kind of hormones yet none of us feels attraction the same way as the other... Like you realized yourself: EVERYONE could pass the level off being attractive if you find them attractive as a personality. Physical attraction can grow out of a mental and emotional one... I've seen it happen... wheter this is done by oxytocin or another random hormone is besides the point and obsotele except for the purpose of you wanting to show us what extensive knowlage of body chemistry you have (or what knowlage of looking up information from a book maybe?). Wait!! This is going nowhere. Why on earth am I even discussing this? The question remains... WHAT WAS YOUR POINT?! Yulia is not bi cause she's attracted to Pasha? Yet you say yourself that attraction can grow out of a strong emotional connection... which practicaly dismantles that claim. I don't even know to what I should be arguing here.


Originally posted by simon
You think Pasha looks feminine? :p

Mind you that I wanted to make a point that Yulia dating Pasha doesn't prove a thing, since I thougth you were suggesting that she can't be bi cause of Pasha (and I still can't find any other meaning to your first post actualy). I wanted to say that that attraction can be diverse... and even if a girl likes rugged guys it doesn't mean she couldn't be attracted to cute feme girls. Just different spectrum of attraction.

Lets go trough my sentance step by step...

" This might be even a bit more complicated for bisexual people .... - nothing wrong with this part right?

" ...who may look for male characteristics on a man and female characteristic on a woman.... " - this part is bothering you?

Where exactly did you figure here that I thought Pasha is feminine? Quite the oposite... I was rather suggestion that it wouldn't be an impossible thing for Yulia to like Pasha (the rugged, masculine type male), and at the same time feel attraction to femme girls (For instance that Masha girl since you mentioned her specificaly). You maybe mistakenly thought I said female characteristics in men and male characteristics in women (which can alson happen, but that's not the point here). Teh point is I condired Pasha quite a masculine guy.


I'm not going to respond anymore since I'm getting increasingly irritaded here. I'll answer only if you personaly attack me. So knock yourself out dude. :none:

denial
21-02-2004, 16:08
Originally posted by xena225
Do you mean the things you said about "Stars"?
..........
Everything is fine, denial. :rose:

mmmm... I like the way you make me feel comfortable... and today the song STARS is gay again ... ;)

Everything is fine, Xena225 :rose:

piojita
21-02-2004, 18:48
Originally posted by Celtic Jobber
Here's a pic of David Copperfield. (http://www.bienet.com/david_copperfield.jpg) What do you think? :none:

I think he looks gay, assumed it was an arranged marriage, but who knows :dknow: