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Echoed
16-11-2003, 05:10
Not that I condone homophobia, but I find it very ironic how, we (I assume), as open-minded people, are intolerant of something.

Of course, homophobia (racism and chauvinism) infringe upon human rights, so a little bit of hypocrisy towards that type of freedom of speech is not surprising.

And yet, we have to indulge freedom of speech to a certain extent, so what are we to do now? (I have no idea where I'm going with this. I'm totally psyching out on fatigue.)

Try to state your opinions in a more civilized manner. (e.g. Personally, I am not comfortable with the concept of homosexuality. To me, it seems unnatural, but perhaps, that is simply because I cannot relate to it.) <-- See? That ain't so hard.

~Echo.

shizzo
16-11-2003, 05:42
Originally posted by Echoed
Not that I condone homophobia, but I find it very ironic
how, we (I assume), as open-minded people, are intolerant of
something.

Intolerance is a variety of issues - one person can be intolerant
of a certain issues while a majority can tolerate then, and the
opposite can apply to tantamount as many issues. It's more a
pick-and-choose selection than just a placid generalization of
what "intolerance" should encompass. Each person has his/her
own interpretation of what this word entails.

Try to state your opinions in a more civilized manner.

Another point where personal interpretation plays a role. The
sarcasm, humor, or other emotions meant to be conveyed
through writing aren't always as evident as the writer would
like them to be. This is something that can be aided with a
careful usage of italics, bold script, et cetera - but still, a person
can't expect everybody to interpret everything that's written
in the exact same way that he/she has.

And from this point, it can be concluded that perhaps a person
might write something in what he/she thinks is a "civilized"
manner but instead be interpreted entirely differently. Jokes
aren't always as obvious via someone else's point of view : a
simple underlying rule of logic. Different mindsets, different
interpretations of what "respect" and "intolerance" and other
somewhat faulty generalizations can/should/might mean. The
middle ground is all you can strive for - if it sounds like it might
be interpreted as offensive, don't post it. The idea of
posting anti-homosexual opinions ought to be dealt with
delicately at a forum like this, where a considerable portion of
the demographic are homosexuals themselves. Opinion or not,
it's a matter of respect. I personally think that Fidget should
have dealt with that situation more carefully and agree
whole-heartedly with how Haku interpreted is, since it
seems like the "default" meaning that most people would have
recognized it for.

But, as said, it's simply a matter of interpretation and striving
for the middle ground. Can't please everybody, but it certainly
couldn't hurt to do your best trying.

// Loki

Echoed
16-11-2003, 05:47
What Loki said.

Word.

~Echo.

shizzo
16-11-2003, 05:54
Word from da gangsta heself, yo.

:: bling bling ::

:cool:

russkayatatu
16-11-2003, 06:16
haku, there is a quote from William James (an early psychologist with whom Gertrude Stein studied), where he says: "Never reject anything. Nothing has been proved. If you reject anything, that is the beginning of the end of you as an intellectual." Why do you believe that there should be no discrimination between people based on gender, sexual orientation, etc., and dismiss something like homophobia out of hand, without even thinking about it, 'how stupid for someone to believe that'? There are no 'givens' here, after all ... the idea of 'basic human rights' didn't exist 1000 years ago; what makes you so sure today that it's so obvious the question of 'proof' or 'argument' doesn't even enter the picture? :dknow:

It used to be that races were thought inherently different, some inferior to others; this was a 'given' at one time, in one culture, one society. Today a majority of civilization holds that that people of different races shouldn't be discriminated against, but mammals other than humans can be treated as fundamentally different: at the most basic level that's discrimination based upon species ... maybe one day that sort of discrimination will be treated as contemptuously as discrimination against races is today. What I want to point out is that there are no 'facts' here ... not that all morality is relative, necessarily, but if someone has a different opinion than you, then as long as both are respectful in stating how they think/feel, there should be no need for anyone to feel that the other is the scum of the earth just for holding that opinion ... as long as everything is discussed intelligently and non-offensively, with an open mind and a sense of humor and without taking everything so seriously, then everything's cool. :done: We're all responsible adults here and should be able to discuss things from our different viewpoints... Anyway that's how I see it.

denial
16-11-2003, 07:18
Well .. there a lots of bad people in this world .. example .. they kill or hurt other people .. and the whole world agreed that this people should be put in jail or terminated. Even since the begining of time.

Should be this way. If we were attacked, we defend then we capture than we terminate.

In my opinion, this is a place for tatu fan no matter what the name of the forum said. Why would someone not tatu fan want to come here and hang around? or pretend to be tatu fan? ..Unless he/she a bad person looking for someone to hurt.

:none:

Yeah .. I know I'm not that 'intellectual' type ..but those looks simple to me.

:rose: for all tatu fans..

PS. I don't have to ask mod to terminate them. I do it myself. Anyone notice the "Edit Ignore List" in our profile option?

..now its a beautiful place again .. :D

Kappa
16-11-2003, 07:48
:D You know what? This is the first time I don't get a warning for anything! I'm finally starting to behave like I'm maturing. :P

Okay. What I see here is basically the case that homophobia is right when expressed in a polite manner? Well, I'd still be enraged and wanting to beat the homophobic up, but I wouldn't feel such a need of returning the verbal hit.

For example, I was NOT amused by Yulia's breasts being called "pancake boobs". Excuse me? Missy, those are pancakes I'd eat any day. Rawr. However, if she had exposed it a bit more... politely, like, "I do not like Yulia's breasts. There are better shapes somewhere else", I guess I wouldn't have snorted my milk outta my nose. (By the way, given the fact that she's so intolerant, why would she be staring at Yulia's breasts and *asignating* a breakfast course due to their shape? :gigi: )

I, as many others, do not support the expression of homophobia in ANY fashion or manner or statement. However, I've become used to it because of the open nature of the forum. But THIS, this is an exageration. It is not that an user's ability to express herself should be terminated, but it pisses a lot of people off and I think we all know how pacific the forum was before.

Kate
16-11-2003, 08:55
darje, some people just don't have a sense of humor.

You are a grown person, right? I am a child, right? I am stubborn, I find it hard to control my words and stuff, yet you creat a thread http://forum.tatysite.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5969 aiming comments at me. Provoking me to reply. How can I not reply when the thread had my name in it? When it analyses my own words? That is a smart move. Pouring oil into fire, it's called.

Then, when I say that I admit I was wrong, you provoke me again, teasing me "why give up so early etc". Is that a game to you? You find it funny when people dissaprove my opinions?

Then when you twist my words, I say it's disgusting. You twist them yet again, saying that lesbians are disgusting to me, when I didn't say that. Provoking me again. I took me endless amount of self-contol not to reply to you with offensive posts.

Analyse THAT!

nath
16-11-2003, 11:25
Personally, I agree with the posts of QueenBee and Russkayatatu.

Haku, I understand your point of view when you say:
"It's basic human rights. People shall not be discriminated based on gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, nationality, or religion. None of this has to be proved, it's a fact....
Homophobes are wrong, no need to prove it. Homophobic comments (or racist, or chauvinist) can't be tolerated."...
...but the word "discriminated " has here a lot of importance, it's very complexe..

There are rules which are necessary for the safeguard of a Society and which must be respected...
As Russkayatatu said: these rules of the Society depend on time and of the places and they evolve...

But each one has also its own interior aware, its own thoughts... and freedom to think is a right as long as it doesn't harm the others and the society.

So I just want to say , here, let's pay attention , be careful and prudent with the phenomena of FASHION, the phenomena of CROWD (people in group could be taken along towards an idea which was not theirs at the beginning ,very quickly. Because they are feeling of guilty if they don't think "well/good" like the others.).
And it creates a question in my mind : Does it exist a SINGLE way of seeing the good? --> danger of the countries with totalitarianism and dictatorship = one SINGLE way of thinking..

To this phenomenon of FASHION, I will add the idea of HYPOCRISIS... Don't become HYPOCRITE, please....--> "Nobody likes all the world, everybody! ...
If someone likes everyone, it is that one really likes nobody ..."
I acknowledge: I don't like everybody!!!...


Then, let's be very careful with "the words".
It is true that it is intolerable that certain thoughts are publicly told, in public places ....but are we allowed to forbid to those people to have their own ideas, conceptions of life in PRIVACY??

May be what is Right now, in our society, will be WRONG tomorrow in the same society?.

nath
16-11-2003, 11:26
Denial , I don't feel this sentence ."Why would someone A NON-TATU FAN want to come here and hang around? or pretend to be a t.A.T.u fan? - Unless he/she is a BAD PERSON LOOKING FOR SOMEONE TO HURT?"

Because there is the big problem of "What is a Tatu Fan?". and we need all together, here, to think about that, because we have all, here, DIFFERENT WAYS TO LOVE TATU, To LOVE Yulia and Lena....

Is there really a BETTER way than another to love or like or appreciate them? - I don't think there is any stereotyped criteria to like them.

For exemple :
I feel, I know what a lot of people, here, think about the relaton between Forre / Tatu... ..
Me , in the REAL LIFE, I heard Forre spoke to me about Lena & Yulia ... and I felt tears come up to my eyes and my throat to tighten itself because I know that she likes them in a very beautiful way, in a way so DEEPLY HUMAN....

... in another way, I completely respect the way in which Xena 225 loves Tatu. I know that she loves them IN A VERY PURE AND SINCERE WAY.... even if it isn't my own concept, I try to understand what she feels ...

...I Love Yulia & Haku have , them, too, another way to love them.

So Tatu Fan, what does it mean really?...

Let's be more prudent and , please, tolerant with this conception!!!...
Personnaly, I'm sure Fidget likes them, in her way...(please....CALM....ok?.... ;) )

So please, let's be very carefull before to announce that one thing is the SINGLE TRUTH.....

nath
16-11-2003, 11:28
Post3

So please, let's be very carefull before to announce that one thing is the SINGLE TRUTH.

The world , the life aren't so simple: they are complicated, subtle. It isn't Black or White...it's Grey .

I'll give give you 2 exemples...

I./ Haku ..when you say :"People shall not be discriminated based on gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, nationality, or religion "...okay...so...
-->" People shall not be discriminated based on Homosexuality"...
-->But there are societies where Homosexuality is a crime, it is punished by death," in the name of God."
These societies have their own rules ... so .
What do you think about them?

-->a/Are they WRONG? - ->- In this case, you discriminate a kind of society which has its basis built with Religious Rules.
So , you discriminate people about their Religion, you too.

I-->b/ If you think they are WRIGHT , you discriminate people about their sexual preference!!....


II./ In "our small Tatysite society", people speak about freedom , respect of the others..
..but I read on this same forum:
"Yes....Our mods aren't gay..."

So , don't forget you could meet private persons , here, so try to not judge them too quickly, just at the 1rst level and if you say that,
"Yes....Our mods aren't gay..."--> ISN'T IT A SEXUAL DISCRIMINATION?....... Are a person or several persons different because they are STRAIGHT or they are GAYS?... or they are just HUMANS ?.

The border is very thin between freedom and ghetto....

Please, let us not do with the others what we do not want that they make us .



CONCLUSION:
Personnally, I 'm absolutely for a TRUE, non stereotyped, not hypocritical and a free way of thinking... but any community has its rules ... thus each member of it must adjust its speech to the rules of this community. It's only at the condition that the Society lives and survives.

This is why, I think that it is sad that some people don't know, how to find a more mature, more civilized and more social way to express themselves in a community.
It's sad because some of them have a brillant mind, they are very intelligent and they had been warned several times.

We all are responsible because each one provokes and each one answers to the provocation, when we are tired.

Not many people are absolutely " White" or "Saints", here. (me, included)....

But when this behavior of provocation remains, it is dangerous for a a community . As Echo said, it is "the way to tell the things" which is not acceptable, in a such situation.
Such a waste!.....

People are nice on Tatysite and it's REAL, but we have to think to be still better, always!
To grow up is to think about us, to try to be better each day... ;)

la aurora
16-11-2003, 13:21
I couldn't disagree more. Prove? We have to prove that homophobia is wrong?
It's basic human rights. People shall not be discriminated based on gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, nationality, or religion. None of this has to be proved, it's a fact.
Homophobes are wrong, no need to prove it. Homophobic comments (or racist, or chauvinist) can't be tolerated

haku, nah... U don't HAVE to prove anything. But everyone has his own opinions and believes. If U don't agree, say that U don't. But it doesn't mean U should BAN the person who has different point of view. Humans are complicated creatures. What looks so natural and right to U can be really wrong to another person. I hate liver. Even one thought of it makes me sick. I have my reasons, I have some bad memories about this type of food from my childhood. And at times, when ppl around me enjoy their meal, I can't help having a painful look on my face. It bothers them a lot. But what can I do? There are things that are almost impossible to control. And it doesn't mean I claim that this damn liver is wrong in general and shouldn't exist. It's just impossible for ME to stand. Nothing more, nothing less. And gay relationship is just one of the things ppl can have different feelings to... no matter if they are gay or straight. Trust me, I've seen enough examples of discrimination... and it were straight ppl who were discriminated by homosexual ones at times. There are racists among black ppl, there are discriminators among the minority. We just can't ban and send to jail EVERYONE who has different opinion, everyone who has ideas that go in contra to what seems 'facts' to us. Coz then those pll will have the will to do same with us and soon we'll all meet in jail and continue the fight there. The only difference will be that we'll ALL be in jail. It's life. And this forum is just a part of this life. U can't make all pll in real life think the way U do. Why do U expect to have it here? At the public forum where lots of ppl of different age, gender, sexual orientation and nationality meet?

Well, of course U can ask ppl to behave well, watch their tongue and all. But have to agree with cniaju here. It's VERY hard to see what person really means here. There are just words... no facial expressions, no voice intonation... so, it's just wrong to see the combination of words, decide it was meant to be offensive and start the fight. There are ways to solve the problem without this. I can't believe just one single person can bring chaos to the whole forum. If U think U are mature and someone is immature why not to behave really mature then? What could be easier than saying: "calm down... we don't agree, but we aren't going to start another fight to please U"? Or to take all these comments with the humor? Or just ignore? The fight isn't obligatory if U don't want it. And queenie, this isn't 'ignoring the problem'. This is the way not to cause problem. Coz starting to attack person back isn't the way to solve this problem. Someone can have a bad mood, someone can have different opinion on some subject but it doesn't make this person bad by default. Ignoring will not just keep ur own nerves, but will be good for that angry person as well. If U don't give him/her the reason to defend him/herself, to say all the bad and offensive things he/she wouldn't say in different situation may be... well, then there's no so much damage, ther's no need to appology so much later... Appologizing is hard, it hurts one's pride. And such threads have so many chances to turn to another ugly argument as it's very hard to see U stepped over ur pride and others just aren't ready to try and understand&forgive.

I believe if Fidget wants to think lesbian sex is unnatural, fine! Maybe we just look at it the wrong way. She might have meant it from a "scientific" point of view.
Well, she explained it in the thread Forre closed. She said she meant it was 'unnatural' but not 'wrong'. I can't agree with this. 'There are no gay animals' doesn't sound as a prove to me as we are ppl, not just animals. God, nature... whoever gave us the ability to think... ability to make choices. Yeah, gay couples can't have children... yet... but it doesn't mean the human race will dissapear if we let ppl love whoever they want. Straight couples will keep giving birth... besides, we can find other ways to solve this problem. We were given some intellect for that. In few words, I think if God, nature, what or whoever created gay ppl, they are as natural as straight ones. If they were wrong, they wouldn't exist. It's just MY opinion. That's why I don't agree with one I mentioned above. But I still respect it and ready to discuss.

Sorry if anything I said above offended U in any way. I really didn't mean to. I love this place. I love ppl I've met here. But I really don't get why being so tolerant to some, we can't be even half as tolerant to others.

Love. Val.


Edit: Sry, haven't seen ur post, Forre. So, decision was made. Well, mods, guess U had ur reasons. Thank U for taking care of this forum.

haku
16-11-2003, 14:48
"Never reject anything. Nothing has been proved. If you reject anything, that is the beginning of the end of you as an intellectual." Why do you believe that there should be no discrimination between people based on gender, sexual orientation, etc., and dismiss something like homophobia out of hand, without even thinking about it
I may be finished as an intellectual, but i still have a brain. I'm quite old, and when i was younger i did give a lot of thoughts to the "facts" i've mentioned. I've reached my own convictions on what's right or wrong, i don't try to impose them on anyone, but i'm not used to remain silent either when i don't agree with someone else's.

Being tolerant toward intolerance has always been the main weakness of democracies. One that has caused them to crumble on more than one occasion.

Amazingly, i'm realizing that most people here think that i am the one being intolerant. So i'll say no more and reflect on that.

nath
16-11-2003, 15:20
Originally posted by haku
Amazingly, i'm realizing that most people here think that i am the one being intolerant. So i'll say no more and reflect on that.
Haku..I've NEVER, NEVER, NEVER thought that about you...
Crois-moi, c'est vrai, Patrick.

teeny
16-11-2003, 15:22
Amazingly, i'm realizing that most people here think that i am the one being intolerant. So i'll say no more and reflect on that.
Then most people must be those who haven't read any of your posts at all.. And I even doubt that.

shizzo
16-11-2003, 15:44
... i'm realizing that most people here...

Most?
The "negative" side tends to stand out in comparison to the
side which a person himself/herself takes [which of course,
given that an opinion isn't taken without reason to think it's
the "right" one, can be considered the "positive" side]. But
when numbers themselves are taken into account, there's a
considerable influx of support that's been launched for what
can be thought of as the "right side". Those in
favor of the views Fidget posted are a minority in this aspect.

But in all honesty, I doubt that most of the people here are
thinking that you're at fault, [b]haku. Perhaps that comment
can be re-worded?

:rose:

// Loki

haku
16-11-2003, 16:18
cniaju, my post was certainly not directed at you. :rose:
Nath, je te crois. Je sais que tu exprimes toujours sincиrement ce que tu penses et j'essaye moi aussi. :rose:
TLFdk, thank you. :rose:

Perhaps that comment
can be re-worded?
I can at least be more precise. By "here" i meant this thread, not the entire forum. I made this comment after reading everything that had been posted after my post on human rights. I have to admit that i was a little overwhelmed by the number of posts directly addressing me and basically stating that i should be more open to other people's views even if they are discriminatory.

But i stand by my point. Human rights are not something that can be questioned and have to be proved. All humans are equal and have the right to live freely. If not questioning that makes me intellectually dead, so be it.

So much for me saying no more. :none:

denial
16-11-2003, 16:25
Originally posted by sunwalk
[b]Denial , I don't feel this sentence ."Why would someone A NON-TATU FAN want to come here and hang around? or pretend to be a t.A.T.u fan? - Unless he/she is a BAD PERSON LOOKING FOR SOMEONE TO HURT?"

Nath .. I knew it I will have to face you with this statement ..but please don't be offended .. I wish I could reply earlier but I just can't connect to tatysite today . :( ..BUT trust me I thought about it.. I thought about it .. really really hard .. before I posted it. So I'll PM you about this. I'm sticking to my opinion.


Yes, I agree. But in my opinion it is okay to say bad things about Tatu aswell, as long as you don't go overboard. But I think so about everything in this world. Use common sense! You might disagree or dislike something but that doesn't mean you have to be really rude. Same with Tatu.
Queenbee ..as long as you don't purposely I repeat PURPOSELY hurt anybody feeling. No one here deserve that. I mean NO ONE! If we ever need the moderators ..thats one of the reasons. Do I make myself clear?

freddie
16-11-2003, 16:47
Sorry to cut in the middle of a discussion here, but there ARE gay animals. The cases have been reported with giraffes and zebras. Just goes to show you that homosexuality is part of natures diverseness as well. Not a mistake at all.

QueenBee
16-11-2003, 16:58
haku, I hope you didn't find my post offensive towards you! Because I was only discussing, didn't mean to hurt anyone.. I am sorry.. :(

I agree that humans are worth the same, but they are absolutely NOT the same...

PowerPuff Grrl
16-11-2003, 17:52
Originally posted by haku
Homophobic comments (or racist, or chauvinist) can't be tolerated.

But racist remarks were tolerated in this forum.
Wasn't there a white supremacist awhile back that often shared his opinions?

la aurora
16-11-2003, 18:08
Aw haku, I really didn't mean to offend U any way. I just wanted to point out that ppl who go against someone's human rights have their humain rights as well. I wasn't talking about U personaly. And I used ur word 'facts' just as it was the shortest way to call 'someone's humain rights as he/she sees them'. It wasn't directed to U personaly, really. Sorry if I didn't make it clear enough. Hope U understand :rose:

Kappa
17-11-2003, 07:03
PowerPuff Grrl, methinks that the white supremacist was... uh, Silenced Sonix. Everyone neverminded his opinions, as unfair as it was to nevermind ANYONE's opinion, but I guess that it is just that he was the only white supremacist around. He's been offline quite a long while, too. He comes and goes, just like Vicious. :P

I am in haku's party in here. I was offended to be thought of as unnatural. Well, I am not anyone's clone, you know? I was born outta my momma's and my papa's stuffdoing, and my business with another woman is just as natural (and MINE not to share with anyone else) as Fidget might be with her boyfriend. I am nonamused to know that sex has to be brought up to prove anyone/anything wrong, and while it is ANYONE's opinion, homophobia is in my experience, to be scared to experience homosexuality. We are not here to be discriminated and called unnatural, because in any way you look at it, it's just as offending as being called wrong.

I don't mean to ask that her opinion is changed. I just wish that she knows a little handy thing called POLITENESS. Hey, Echoed has made me learn how to be polite over the course of a year, because if anyone can remember, I was a lil' punk@$$ back on february. Why won't she be? freddie got his for sharing his opinion in a wrongful choice of words, now that I remember, why can't she get hers?

haku
17-11-2003, 13:33
Not that I condone homophobia, but I find it very ironic how, we (I assume), as open-minded people, are intolerant of something.

Of course, homophobia (racism and chauvinism) infringe upon human rights, so a little bit of hypocrisy towards that type of freedom of speech is not surprising.
It was the first reply to my post, but i decided to take my time to reply because it is indeed a complex matter and i wanted to be as short as possible.

Am i an hypocrite when i say that some comments are unacceptable when in the same time i present myself as tolerant? Anyone is free to think so.

I never said that homophobes, racists, and chauvinists have no rights.

The skinheads who beat up a gay person to death have rights. The persons who blew up two synagogs in Istanbul have rights. Does that mean we have to let them express their "views"? Certainly not.

Verbal abuse may not be as lethal as baseball bats or bombs, but it hurts, it hurts a lot, no matter how politely the abuse was put. No one deserves to be abused in any way, and that's why i repeat that homophobic, racist, or chauvinist comments can't be tolerated.

I don't see that as hypocrisy.

I do not believe in absolute freedom of speech. (There is no such thing in Europe anyway) Freedom of speech can't infringe upon human rights. Freedom of speech stops where the right of other people to exist starts.

parrish122
17-11-2003, 15:47
I agree with Haku.

I've also heard it expressed as "Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins." :)

Yes, people have a right to believe whatever they wish. It isn't like you could prevent that anyway.


But provoking people, hurting them on purpose? No, I don't believe *that* is a right.

Parrish

PowerPuff Grrl
18-11-2003, 03:54
Originally posted by darje
PowerPuff Grrl, methinks that the white supremacist was... uh, Silenced Sonix. Everyone neverminded his opinions, as unfair as it was to nevermind ANYONE's opinion, but I guess that it is just that he was the only white supremacist around. He's been offline quite a long while, too. He comes and goes, just like Vicious. :P

Yeah, that was his name!
Thanks Darje.

If I remeber correctly though, people felt uneasy about his opinions, most ignored him (including myself) however there were a few that argued with him in a very impressive manner. In the end though he contributed to to many thoughtful posts that wasn't in any relation to his prejudices. As well, many members regarded him no less than any other member.

Silenced Sonix may have been the only white supremacist but Fidget is the only homophobe that we know of too (or at least I know of)... Are there others?
If there are, than is the policy concerning homophopes, racists, mysoginists, anti-semitics, etc to ban them as soon there is more than one of them? We should limit the number to one from each group?
If that is true (which I know isn't) it is kind of absurd, don't you think?

What I'm basically asking is: What is the difference between these two people?
The only thing I can come up with is that Silenced Sonix never really expressed his views out of the blue; he always said it within the context of a particular thread. Whereas with Fidget, I get the impression that she is just a sh!t disturber and she kinda enjoys it too. Which implies that her views shouldn't be taken so seriously since, y'know, it seems like she just trying to piss you guys off.

But you guys come off as being more pissed off that she's homophobic than the fact the she's a no good common troll. Based on your reasoning then, a racist can still be an active member but God forbid a homophobe should be too.
Puh-lease.
Figdet should be banned because she's a punk, not because of her views no matter narrow-minded and hateful they are. You all have the choice to ignore them as you most of you have with Silenced Sonix.

Impressive analysis but unfortunatelly wrong vocabulary has been used to describe Fidget and Sonix - thus, a BIG warning for personal direct offense.

PS: This post isn't implying that the mods should ban Silenced Sonix. I'm just stating my opinion.

PPS: I just realized how bad it is that my post is right under Sunwalk's.
Sorry but I barely had any say in this, I felt I had to say something.

haku
18-11-2003, 04:11
PowerPuff Grrl

Excuse me for not being a senior member like you are but how am i supposed to know about things that happened before my joining this forum?

This is actually the first time i've heard the name Silenced Sonix, i've never seen one of his post.

If i had been around when he made racist posts, i would have been as shocked as i was by the homophobic ones. I think my posts are pretty clear about that.

PowerPuff Grrl
18-11-2003, 04:41
Originally posted by haku
PowerPuff Grrl

Excuse me for not being a senior member like you are but how am i supposed to know about things that happened before my joining this forum?

How are you supposed to know?
Quite simple actually, you're not.
As you have stated before, you weren't around when Silenced Sonix was, it is implied that you are not the person I'm exclusively asking my questions to then.
I have no idea where you got that idea.
You don't think I would be able to get that there may be some people that weren't here long enough to know of Silenced Sonix?

Man! You really don't think much of me, do you?

shizzo
18-11-2003, 05:00
Voilа - misdirection visits again.

[It's obvious that Haku thought she was included in the
category of "others", which is an honest mistake to be made
regardless of personal opinions. In fact, from the tone of the
mentioned post contrasting white supremacy and homohate,
it did sound like the cons of racism and homophobia were
being weighed aside one another. Perhaps not intentional,
but misinterpretation is common and boundless - and definitely
not worth the time to develop an issue over.]

haku
18-11-2003, 05:07
PowerPuff Grrl

Fair enough, i apologize.
it is implied that you are not the person I'm exclusively asking my questions to then
But you guys come off as being more pissed off that she's homophobic than the fact the she's a no good common troll. Based on your reasoning then, a racist can still be an active member but God forbid a homophobe should be too.
This is the reason why i thought you were addressing me as well. "you guys", you used plural, so you were not addressing one single person. I and Darje are the two people who have been clearly on the "pissed off" side in this thread, and at least 2 thirds of the replies are directed at me, so i assumed i was the second person you were talking to. My mistake. End of story.

PowerPuff Grrl
18-11-2003, 22:16
In fact, from the tone of the mentioned post contrasting white supremacy and homohate, it did sound like the cons of racism and homophobia were being weighed aside one another.

Cniaju, if you're referring to my post then I assure you I wasn't prioritizing racism over homophobia. I was weighing the reactions with said phobias.
But of course, if you weren't referring to my post, then... uh... either way it seems misdirection will be extending her visit.

haku, reading through my post I can see how you came up with the impression that I was targeting you. Yeah, I would've came up with the same feeling and for that, I too apologize, sorry guy.

Forre, consider the warning acknowledge. Sorry, I didn't mean for it to come out like that. But uh... how did I insult Silenced Sonix?

And finally,

Originally posted by taty994945
peace :)

For serious.

goku
22-11-2003, 03:03
Originally posted by QueenBee
I think that Silenced Sonix was very intelligent. I never got the impression that he was a racist. :confused:

He was intelligent, and one of my good friends. I wish he was on more, haha. He has, well, "politically incorrect" views sometimes, but don't we all?

Uhaku
22-11-2003, 13:50
Nat. I just can't ignore your posts. ^_^’ I disagree that it's OK to have thoughts that are against others even *in private*. Just b/c everyone does it, doesn’t mean it’s OK. Guilt is something that holds us back from hurting others, mentally and physically. What kind of a person are you if you don't mind having bad thoughts? It's impossible to forbid anyone from their ways of thinking, but do we have to let it go on when little things like the homophobia in this little forum could be enlightened? IMO, every little thing leads to bigger things. What would happen if Martin Luther King Jr. thought, "Oh, everyone has their own rights to like/dislike black people. After all, not every white wants to kill us. Occasional disgusted looks wouldn’t hurt."??? He knew--we know. What should we do now with that little hate thought from the poor artist, Hitler? Let say Hitler never made it big. It’s just a thought, eh? Because nobody punches our faces b/c they don't like us for who we are, so everything is all right? Maybe because our lives are too blissful we forgot about others? People with anti-social disorder can NOT understand why it is WRONG to kill people. Their brains tell them so. So should we respect his/her thoughts when they haven't acted on it yet? Should we ignore their thoughts as their next victims probably wouldn't be your children, your loved ones, or you, yourself?

It's impossible to compare us with those 1,000 years ago. Many of them couldn’t read. They knew nothing about other things outside their communities. Subtract those 900 years, and we are left with just 1 century that the world really did CHANGE. We walked from the beginning of times. Only until recently, I could fly to France tomorrow to have this discussion with you face to face. (Wouldn’t that be nice?) Things changed fast only in the past century, we are SO DIFFERENT now. We could learn from the mistakes in the past from taking a few classes (must paid great attention though), and we’re supposed to make it better today. The next generation will learn from us. They'll be smarter than us. But it is *we* who can teach them to think, to be better than us. But nothing will be better if we *the present* does not take action.

But there are societies where Homosexuality is a crime, it is punished by death," in the name of God." These societies have their own rules ... so .
-->a/Are they WRONG? - ->- In this case, you discriminate a kind of society which has its basis built with Religious Rules.

God and religion are only their excuses for their hate. And I don’t think it’s a discrimination to disrespect their rules. Since when God said you should kill? It is the wicked humans, who have thoughts against others, made the rules up. Do you agree to ignore their thoughts? I don’t assume I know all the right/wrong actions. But as far as humanity concerns, I believe everyone understands it to some points. There’re just some that don’t want to.

Echoed
There’s nothing hypocrite about saying homophobic is bad, while limiting freedom of speech to some extent. What good can Hate possibly do for anyone? Would someone die if they shut their mouths, and in return, not hurting others? Not every rule can apply to every other rule. Humans are not equations. Our hearts don’t always multiply something the same way twice. Our actions can not be erased. Feelings can not be subtracted. Life can not be replaced. And I agree that nobody would like to be told to shut up. We enjoy our freedom, and yes, we just have to care more of our words.

taty994945
22-11-2003, 15:00
Well said uhaku, I don't like the idea of completely unrestrained freedom of speech.

parrish122
22-11-2003, 15:09
Very well said, Uhaku.

And you get your point across in a non-confrontational way. Very respectful. :)

Parrish

nath
22-11-2003, 17:44
Uhaku , I agree with Parrish in the fact "you get your point across in a non-confrontational way." And it doesn't surprised me from you Linna .;)
I wish a lot of people could be so respectful as you, here.

I'll write a short post because I'm not sure it's the good thread to have a such debate. You know where to join me so I invite you to speak about that tomorrow , if you want, to have more explainations.
1/ I've never thought that Hitler what a good person as Staline or Pol Pot...
2/ Never thought that Martin Luther King has to stay mute. I think it's a great thing he acted...but i don't consider the actions of the Black Panthers as good, neither...
Sometimes , things are just grey...
I know you love the cinema so examine the life of Jean Seberg and read the book of her husband , Romain Gary, "White Dog"...you'll see racism isn't a so simple thing...
Be careful ! I NEVER say racism is a good thing. I say :"Just tell the truth: Racism exists EVERYWHERE , in all the COMMUNITIES"
That doesn't mean, as other people will hasten to say it, while jumping just on WORDS, without seeking to dig the IDEA which is behind:" Nathalie is against Black People "...that just means, "Let's see REALITY and let's study a problem by looking at ALL her components and don't satisfy ourself with stereotyped sentences or ideas.."

3/Originally posted by Sunwalk
But there are societies where Homosexuality is a crime, it is punished by death," in the name of God." These societies have their own rules ... so .
-->a/Are they WRONG? - ->- In this case, you discriminate a kind of society which has its basis built with Religious Rules.
-->UhakuGod and religion are only their excuses for their hate. And I don’t think it’s a discrimination to disrespect their rules.... Since when God said you should kill? ..... Do you agree to ignore their thoughts?
Linna ...you're one of the rare persons , here, who know me a little...
I wrote that just to give an exemple... to try to give the point of view of another who was educated in the mind that homosexuality could be a sin!....I tried to understand how they could react, why they could think in a such way!...
Now , Linna, Do you think it WAS I REALLY WHAT I THINK?....
I hate poeple who kill in the name of God and you know it....You see, I admit..so I don't love everybody...

4/Never said: You're free to think all the most horrible things of the earth if you don't tell them!...
But I could understand that some persons still could be shocked by the idea of homosexuality...because it 's in conflict with the education they have had...
How many people , here, have suffered when they discovered they were homosexual?..just because it was in conflict with the education they have had!...
Does it means I'm homophobic because I say that?...
Homosexuality needs time to be really and fully accepted...

I'm against the fact persons could be agressive against others because they are homosexual but i understand they could be shocked...if they don't lie about their own feelings.


Take care to static words without trying to see the idea which is behind and all isn't just WHITE or BLACK. That's just I wanted to say in my post.

...May be it will be better to open a new thread to speak about that, no?.. and come back here to the first title of the thread.

:hmmm: Sorry , it wasn't short

PowerPuff Grrl
23-11-2003, 01:16
You know, I really resent the fact that Silenced Sonix is highly regarded here. That his racism can be downplayed as merely being "politically incorrect" and excuseable because we all apparently have been politically incorrect.

More importantly though, I truly resent that fact that moderators are avoiding to explain why this poster has been allowed to remain active while another poster also expressing hate to a group of people be warned and eventually banned.

This kind of neglect badly reflects that of the forum, IMHO.

QueenBee
23-11-2003, 01:20
More importantly though, I truly resent that fact that moderators are avoiding to explain why this poster has been allowed to remain active while another poster also expressing hate to a group of people be warned and eventually banned.

I absolutely agree. And this user (I have nothing against this user at all) has gone away with these kinds of things more than once... But. I don't know, really.. It feels as if I say something towards someone I feel hated, so I will not bash this user...

Lux
23-11-2003, 01:32
i am attracted to whoever. people who are should just be left alone. it's not a choice, it's something that just is. whenever people are intolerant they should be tought to respect and possibly understand. it's never healthy to respond to intolerance with negativity. it only provokes more negativity.

ypsidan04
23-11-2003, 02:58
Originally posted by haku
I may be finished as an intellectual, but i still have a brain. I'm quite old, and when i was younger i did give a lot of thoughts to the "facts" i've mentioned. I've reached my own convictions on what's right or wrong, i don't try to impose them on anyone, but i'm not used to remain silent either when i don't agree with someone else's.

Amazingly, i'm realizing that most people here think that i am the one being intolerant. So i'll say no more and reflect on that.

Certainly not me. I totally agree with your opinions on this, as usual. You're cool with me, one of my favorite members here. :cool: :done:

The skinheads who beat up a gay person to death have rights. The persons who blew up two synagogs in Istanbul have rights. Does that mean we have to let them express their "views"? Certainly not. - Haku

And the people that killed Matthew Shepherd in Wyoming just because he was gay (:( ) have their rights. But we can't allow them to express their opinions by killing someone just because they don't agree with how this person lives their life. But we do have to let people like the Ku Klux Klan have their freedom of speech, no matter how much we disagree, as long as they are non-violent.

Verbal abuse may not be as lethal as baseball bats or bombs, but it hurts, it hurts a lot, no matter how politely the abuse was put. - Haku

I've seen this quote before: "Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words will really hurt me"

I have to agree with sunwalk - I can't see anyone wasting time here that doesn't like Tatu. Of course there are different levels of "liking", but I can't believe that people i.e. Fidget dislike Tatu, as much as she seems to act like it.

Originally posted by darje
For example, I was NOT amused by Yulia's breasts being called "pancake boobs". Excuse me? Missy, those are pancakes I'd eat any day. Rawr.

:lol:
I'm not either. She shouldn't say something like that, completely knowing that many people would be offended.

sunnypoison and sunwalk (the two suns :p) - Very good posts you made. :rose:

And about normalness, and what's natural, I have to repeat one of my favorite Tatu quotes: Everything's normal if it's love.

cirrus
23-11-2003, 03:18
Originally posted by haku
Freedom of speech stops where the right of other people to exist starts.

Hell yeah haku! I'm glad you said that. People have the freedom to say anything, really, until we abuse our rights and deny someone of their freedom. There are boundaries and responsibilities, and just plain courtasy for other people. Just because we have the freedom to say something, doesn't make it right or justified.

Then again - once someone pisses me off I'll say anything, aiming to offend them. I don't do too good a job of respecting people when they get me angry... :dead:

Kappa
23-11-2003, 03:52
PowerPuff Grrl, I have been taken for a white supremacist more than once and I have not uttered a word of hate towards people of other races. It has been merely because of the color of my skin; to be honest, I'm not even near what Arian race is ¬¬ . I'm Slavic. I'm kind of touchy around that subject so I'll appreciate being heard on this my last opinion about that subject.

Sonix is not my example of a subject with the best ideals but he will not go around killing people that are not of his race. He is well over that (or maybe he isn't and that's why we haven't heard of him for a while?); it's stated here and in human rights that to commit a hate crime, verbally or physically, based on religion, race, ideals, sexuality or any other human difference, is a direct offense to that person's dignity and according to the degree of that offense, the offender must pay [a fine, time in prison, apologize publicly, etc.].

HOWEVER and up to my last knowledge of Sonix, he did not have Hitler's swastika on his avatar, he did not have an offending signature, and none of his posts excepting one that very clearly exposed his opinion about his race, in a clear and unnoffensive way that could have clearly saved Hitler from me wanting to travel back in the future, rip his nuts off and make him swallow them, were related to that.

Sonix is NOT a threat to anyone. He will not track you down if you're Asian or Black or a Slav or a Jew, because HELL, the forum is full of us; he just commits the crime of vanity, of liking his race the best and wanting to prove an inexistant superiority. LET HIM BE. I do not support him, and in my views, whatever points of view I don't share with the original poster, I'd rather ignore instead of saying he's a subject of reprobation and lack of decence when he hasn't said a word in about seven months.

ypsidan04, thanks for liking my funkeh way of declaring I needed breakfast of some kind. I insist, Yulia's breasts (but Lena's, way better), would consist of my full breakfast, supper and dinner. :P

shizzo
23-11-2003, 05:41
darje - I'm led to think that it's more the principle of his having
been a white-supremacist, not his being a potential threat, that
caused this topic. Think of this :

Suppose that you frequented a particular forum which didn't
have any particular reference to homosexuality. [For instance,
let's say it's a fansite for a new girl group.] The topic of
homosexuality goes unsaid for a long time after your
registration, during which time you make friends with loads
of people who don't really have a strong opinion about
homosexuality at all.
Then suppose that one of the other members on the site,
when a thread concerning homosexuality was written, stated
that he/she just thought that anyone who wasn't hetero was
probably going to burn in Hell after death. The first sign of any
negativity whatsoever from the person.

Would you yourself just "ignore it"?
No.
And I think that's the same situation PowerPuff Grrl is facing -
he made a comment about white-supremacy at one point, and
that's soured his entire persona in her view. And rightfully so,
I'd imagine - if I were in her shoes, I'd have reacted the same
way. But because the issue of racism takes a backseat to topics
covering homosexuality at this forum, the topic wasn't discussed
or elaborated. Hence, her current opinion.

I agree with PPG - if a person has resentment toward another
race, sexuality, ethnicity, etc., it has to be dealt with delicately.
Stating your opinion without being disrespectful is possible. It
of course can lead to certain uneventful results afterward [for
example, you probably would grudge what that person on the
fansite had said and begin to dislike him/her more and more],
but as mentioned time and time again, it's all a matter of
rights. And of privileges. And at times, of people privileging
themselves to rights they don't yield. But everyone has an
opinion. Whether or not people choose to listen to it is
irrelevant - no one is incapable of "being the better person"
and respectfully ignoring that person or that person's comments
if it can't be regulated via moderation.

[So many factors to consider. My debate skills are weakened. :/]

But we can't allow them to express their opinions by killing someone just because they don't agree with how this person lives their life.

Back to the notion that a person's right to swing his/her fist
ends with the tip of someone else's nose. There's a difference
between "expressing an opinion" and "acting on an opinion".
One can be annoying, the other can be illegal. From here, it's
more or less a matter of personal belief. I [personally] think
that anyone who kills someone else for some abstract reason
which isn't justifiable has considerable symptoms of Stupid and
is lucky to have gotten far without doing so in the past. And,
[personally], that kind of nonchalant disrespect renders their
opinions as baseless to me due to the almost complete lack of
[in-my-perspective] logic.

Subjectivity and objectivity might not level as often as would
be more convenient or "easier", but that's just how it is - it
deals with personal perspective. So much to consider...

taty994945
23-11-2003, 05:48
Originally posted by Silenced Sonix
I just spent the entire weekend wrapped in the smell of gunpowder and hot brass, so I'm lying low for a while.

You seem to doubt my ability to get away with what I do - I assure you, that is the easiest part.After all, if the guy was speeding, his brakes failed and he ended up halfway through a concrete wall, it generally goes down as an "accident". Or if they O.D. on a particularly potent drug - how do you trace that? When I go to work, it is usually with great care, large amounts of planning and executed with the minimum of danger to myself. As always, maximum efficiency is rewared with maximum success and minimum loss... This past weekend was the exception... Let's rather forget that for now.


I don't know what this is about, but he sounds pretty dangerous. Or maybe he was kidding. :dknow:

PowerPuff Grrl
23-11-2003, 06:07
HOWEVER and up to my last knowledge of Sonix, he did not have Hitler's swastika on his avatar, he did not have an offending signature, and none of his posts excepting one that very clearly exposed his opinion about his race, in a clear and unnoffensive way that could have clearly saved Hitler from me wanting to travel back in the future, rip his nuts off and make him swallow them, were related to that.

- Actually he did have a swastika on avatar momentarily but was then asked to put it down by another poster
- There were threads where he went into great detail describing his beliefs, most of these threads however were purged long ago, I'm sure there may be some here and there though. One thing for sure it wasn't just one comment that exposed him, it was a series of comments


Darje, most, if not all, of your post could be applied to Figdet's case, but it isn't. I really don't see how Figdet is capable of posing a threat to other people... Silenced Sonix other hand...

Kappa
23-11-2003, 06:13
PowerPuff Grrl, well, Fidget could slap me. I'd probably pinch her nose, say "what a cute gesture" and walk away because my policy is to never hit girls. :P

Sonix, on the other side, we know nothing of him, wether he jokes or not. He lives in a troubled side of the world and I'm kind of convinced that his beliefs are guided by some mistaken ideal of what should be and should not be. Following Forre's example for once, I say that while he isn't around to defend his case, we don't talk about him. It might agravate you that he actually is around but we are talking about giving a fair trial to anyone whose beliefs breach anyone else's.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go officialy close a thread and start a helluva complicated game. :P

spyretto
23-11-2003, 06:42
Opinion: I never put much thought on it, and it doesn't interest me that much to become actively involved. But I'll try to state my opinion in all honesty here.

I find comments like "I'd eat Yulia's breasts for breakfast" as disturbing as stating that "Yulia's breasts are like two small pancakes" ( this is where the reference to eating comes but I do not condone cannibalism of any kind :D ).
I also think that people with common interests would ally behind a common ground, it's only a "natural" aspect of our social being. Sometimes it is a just cause, other times it can be something as pointless and stupid, as racism, sexism, homophobia, anti-semetism, etc. Yet, I wouldn't be honest if I didn't say that It goes both ways, there's also reverse racism, "heterophobia" etc.
A example: I read from time to time that certain people hate Tatu cause they're "lesbians" - this is the spontaneous, initial reaction Tatu can cause to some people. But if it was crystal-clear that Tatu were indeed gay, it wouldn't be long before the gay fan community could declare that " Tatu are gay, what are you doing in this site?" Heterosexual fans of Tatu are still the minority here.
Another example: A certain user should probably have been "penalised" recently according to the rules of the forum but didn't, thanks to her good terms/friendship with the owner of the site. Others should have been "penalised" too, I for one, if we were to follow the letter of the law blindly.
All in all, people have a liking/disliking for their fellow people and it's not only the actions that determine it but sometimes only a common characteristic/bond.

About racism, of any kind, as I said, I find it pointless and stupid. About homophobia, although I said that to me it seems like an anomaly, it exists in the natural course of things since time immemorial - and even in abundance - so there's nothing to be afraid of. It would also be pointless and stupid to me to judge a person from whether he/she is gay or not - all the same from whether one has pale or dark skin, whether one is Jew, a woman, a German, an American etc.
Although I do not condone reverse "homophobia" too, and I don't rate it as a "priviledge" to be gay either ;) And I cannot pretend that I'm close to how gay people feel or think.

Nature works in mysterious ways, there's an abundance of species, types, idiosyncrasies etc. To assume that one type is "better" than another is inconclusive, as one type could be better in one thing and worse in another. Let the actions of the person determine her worth, not the colour of the skin, her gender or her sex preference.

And there goes my two cents.

Kappa
23-11-2003, 07:07
spyretto... *ahem ahem*. I didn't think I'd have to clear THAT up, y'know? But lesbian sex is also known as "eating out". :gigi: Expanding those terms to breakfast, I thought the gag was funny. :P

spyretto
23-11-2003, 07:11
yes, I know, Darje, that was a joke actually - about cannibalism. But what I said there still stands. You're free to say what you want, of course. But if I wrote something like, ahem Yulia has a nice ahem and ahem, I'd like to ahem, I wouldn't feel too proud about that either.
It doesn't matter what I'd think about that :D

ok, it's 7 am here and I'm up already. Are we starting that game or what :)

Oh, about religious differences I'd like to add: They seem to engender a tremendous cycle of violence and I cannot turn a blind eye on that. I'm not saying that Islam has inherent violence or that the common muslim is proud of what's happening but it seems that, at this particular moment in time, Islam is tolerating a lot of hatred and intolerance amongst its people. In general, religious differences have generated a horrific cycle of violence during the course of history, and with Christianity, no less. Another occurence I find utterly bizarre and pointless. :rolleyes:

Uhaku
23-11-2003, 09:31
Nat, I never thought for a second that you would think racism, homophobia, or any thought/form that are against mankind, are *all right*. I did not accuse you of anything. I simply asked a lot of questions, sharing my thoughts and hoped for you to share yours. My questions were just questions, without sarcasm or any hard feeling hidden. I asked like a child who could only think of straight questions. ^_^’

Now back to the topic of intolerance and discrimination:

I wrote that just to give an exemple....I tried to understand how they could react, why they could think in a such way!

I understand your point of stating that better now. I, too, try to understand why some people think of certain things differently. I’m always open to new ideas, hoping it could enlighten me in some way. I asked, “Do you agree to IGNORE their thought?” Not that I thought you agreed WITH their thought.

IMO, trying to understand others is good, but it’s just not enough. Actions are needed. I think that we all could make a difference if everyone takes little actions around us. I don’t think if we decided to make a change (for the better), it would be called discrimination or intolerance. When our friends have a thought against other human being, I’m not saying that we should beat them up, but we shouldn’t just stand and watch them getting accustomed to their hate either. I know it’s not easy, but one needs to *learn* all through their lives. Never stop searching right when we stepped out of our home/school/church/community. We can learn from others, and others can learn from us. When one stops learning, it means they’re ready to get into their coffin.

Yes, life isn’t black and white. I know life is all shades of gray. As I said before, all things concerning humanity can’t be treated as math. When someone hit your partner in the face, she/he bleeds, not you. And it doesn’t work the other way around. But our feelings are connected, and you could feel hurt WITH them, while when you subtract 2 with 1, you’re left with just 1. Not every rule applies to every other rule when it concerns human mind.

Today, I asked my friend what she thinks about harming others verbally, or physically. She said whatever you do to others; others have the right to do it back to you. If you don’t want someone to treat you badly, you shouldn’t do it to them either. I don’t think it’s a discrimination or intolerance to Fidget’s thought/belief if someone tried to explain it to her. She disrespected others and claimed to be hurt when others disrespected her. In the end, everyone has their feelings hurt. Why? Because the mature people are too afraid to step in, afraid that their actions could be called intolerance/discrimination? Why fear to improve something, to make something better? Online life is different from the real world, I know. You can throw nasty words at each other and turn the computer off, no problem. But when we get hurt, are our feelings any less real from when it happens in the real world? Isn’t that why some take actions to make the world a better place for everyone else? Isn’t that why some try to reach out for the rainbow in the skies, so that others wouldn’t have to live in gray anymore?

But I could understand that some persons still could be shocked by the idea of homosexuality...because it 's in conflict with the education they have had...
How many people, here, have suffered when they discovered they were homosexual?..just because it was in conflict with the education they have had!...
Does it means I'm homophobic because I say that?

I don’t get the impression of you being homophobia in this statement at all. You weren’t trying to degrade homosexuality.

Homosexuality needs time to be really and fully accepted...
I'm against the fact persons could be agressive against others because they are homosexual but i understand they could be shocked...if they don't lie about their own feelings.

I agree it would take time to be accepted more, but it would not happen if we just try to understand homophobia and not doing anything to enlighten them. Maybe we could lessen their hate? Maybe they would change our mind, and we would begin to think like they do? Honesty isn’t always right. Honesty doesn’t always get you somewhere. It’s the mind and body that could take you far, if you exercised them.

spyretto
23-11-2003, 09:43
But I could understand that some persons still could be shocked by the idea of homosexuality...because it 's in conflict with the education they have had...
How many people, here, have suffered when they discovered they were homosexual?..just because it was in conflict with the education they have had!...
Does it means I'm homophobic because I say that?

I think that It is also something that deviates from the norm, it is not only the education. We, as human sociable beings, want to be accepted by the others, want to be liked, and finding out that you're a homosexual may pose a problem as to whether you're going to be treated as equal, whether you are going to be accepted. Yet, everybody finds their way eventually and come to terms with what one is. So in the end we tend to like ourselves the way we are and we wouldn't change it, even if that deviates from common perception.

nath
23-11-2003, 10:14
Originally posted by uhaku
Today, I asked my friend what she thinks about harming others verbally, or physically. She said whatever you do to others; others have the right to do it back to you.
..Uhaku..thanks for your answer....but.....hihi....i don't agree with this sentence....
This is the "Talion Law"!....it leads out of all humanity...it leads to the jungle, the barbary!..it destroyes all the rules that men built to be civilized!..
Even if others act in a crual way, you HAVE TO STAY FAITHFULL WITH YOUR COUNCIOUSNESS, WITH YOUR IDEA OF THE RIGHT!....and not fall in that you blame in the other just because you were hurt...
This my conception...

Uhaku
23-11-2003, 10:33
Originally posted by sunwalk

This is the "Talion Law"!....it leads out of all humanity...it leads to the jungle, the barbary!..it destroyes all the rules that men built to be civilized!..
[/B]

:) I can see how you think of the statement. I blinked a few times when she said that, too. But then, I realized that she didn't mean if someone kills your mother, you have the right to kill their mother, too. I believe she meant it in a philosophical way. If you wish for peace, you, yourself, have to be the one who keeps it. If you wish for war, you are the only one who could make it happen (because others would not simply stand still and take a slap in their face), right?

Uhaku
23-11-2003, 10:50
Originally posted by sunwalk

Even if others act in a crual way, you HAVE TO STAY FAITHFULL WITH YOUR COUNCIOUSNESS, WITH YOUR IDEA OF THE RIGHT!....and not fall in that you blame in the other just because you were hurt...
This my conception...

That sounds noble to me. But I'm only human. My heart may be broken, but I wouldn't let someone slap me on both cheeks without putting up a fight. It could be a fight for an explanation. And their answer could deter my belief. Who knows? Why not finding out? Why just stand firmly by what you already know and as a result, stop searching? I don't mean we have to leave our belief behind. But life is full of surprises. What we might find tomorrow might change us forever? Maybe we will believe in something else tomorrow?

nath
23-11-2003, 11:01
Originally posted by uhaku
I believe she meant it in a philosophical way. If you wish for peace, you, yourself, have to be the one who keeps it. If you wish for war, you are the only one who could make it happen (because others would not simply stand still and take a slap in their face), right?
Mind way, mind behaviour is the same as physicall , no..?... :confused:
I saw the sentence in the opposite side...
If someone wishes for war, should I have to wish for war too because he/she did?...
If I wish for war, if I have the same behaviour that I blame on the other , I'm unfaithfull with myself, with my consciouness no?...
It isn't better to try to explain to the other and , if it doesn't work, to ignore the other...to leave the other for what he/she is ?
If he/she goes too far , you have the Law to defend your rights....but why to degrade yourself just by a simple desire of revange?...:heh:

spyretto
23-11-2003, 11:13
If I wish for war, if I have the same behaviour that I blame on the other , I'm unfaithfull with myself, with my consciouness no?...
It isn't better to try to explain to the other and , if it doesn't work, to ignore the other...to leave the other for what he/she is ?
If he/she goes too far , you have the Law to defend your rights....but why to degrade yourself just by a simple desire of revange?...

It's better...and will save you from a lot of problems...

Uhaku
23-11-2003, 11:31
Originally posted by sunwalk
[B]Mind way, mind behaviour is the same as physicall , no..?... :confused:

People don't always do what they think, do they? That's why people lie, cheat, betray one another.


If someone wishes for war, should I have to wish for war too because he/she did?... If I wish for war, if I have the same behaviour that I blame on the other , I'm unfaithfull with myself, with my consciouness no?...

Because you don't agree on harming others, then it seems to be unfaithful to yourself if you think that you might want to. But I'm speaking of some people who could care less about others. Hurting others may not be in their consciousness, then. So they're not unfaithful to their belief. But I'm not saying that their belief is right.


It isn't better to try to explain to the other and , if it doesn't work, to ignore the other...to leave the other for what he/she is?

This is what I've been trying to say. Yes, we should try to explain to one another. If it doesn't work, so? Because nothing we do today might pay off tomorrow. It might not pay off in our life time, even. But it *might* be something in the future. Some little things we do today might mean a lot in the next generation. Why give up? I'm not saying we should keep stalking those who disagree with us in *any subject*. It's not that. I'm saying we shouldn't give up when we see other human beings are treated unfairly because of their race, sexuality, etc. You might be able to take it from others. But some might need help. Someone out there we don't even know. Why not thinking beyond ourselves, beyond our door, out of our communities?


If he/she goes too far , you have the Law to defend your rights....but why to degrade yourself just by a simple desire of revange?...:heh:

It isn't degrading. It's for defending oneself. Law isn't always there for you. We're humans and are full of flaws. Laws, too. :) Sometimes if you don't fight for yourself, nobody will. It isn't always about revenge.

ypsidan04
23-11-2003, 14:54
Originally posted by spyretto
yes, I know, Darje, that was a joke actually - about cannibalism. But what I said there still stands. You're free to say what you want, of course. But if I wrote something like, ahem Yulia has a nice ahem and ahem, I'd like to ahem, I wouldn't feel too proud about that either.
It doesn't matter what I'd think about that :D

Oh, come on spyretto. This is a straight guy talking, and even I know the difference between eating and "eating" like she said. :yes: :lalala: Jokes are jokes, and I found that quite amusing (besides, I definitely agree that "pancakes" is a gross misnomer - just look at TvA's current desktop). We all know there's a fair amount of homosexual people here, and we have to expect the unexpected. :D
Originally posted by spyretto

1.A example: I read from time to time that certain people hate Tatu cause they're "lesbians" - this is the spontaneous, initial reaction Tatu can cause to some people.

2.Heterosexual fans of Tatu are still the minority here.


1. I respect the right of people to hate them because "they don't write the music or play instruments". (:bebebe: ) BUT...ANYONE who hates them just because they are "lesbians" or just because they dress provocatively sometimes is going to get an earfull from me. Those people are despicable. This is how Lena and Yulia choose to live their life. Anyone who puts someone down for that is not a good person in my book. :mad: Whenever someone has said that the ATTSS video (or Tatu in general) is soft-pornography or paedo-pop, that just makes me want to slap them - seriously! Who do they think they are? The protectors of the world from something they think is "gross" or "unnatural"? Have they forgotten that there are different opinions, and that the world doesn't revolve around them? If they think that Tatu is going to "corrupt" their daughters, then don't let em watch MTV! (or just get the hell over it, and let em do what they want - God forbid any more girls in this world becoming lesbians! - :rolleyes: ). I have no respect whatsoever for homophobic people.

"I don't understand why they've forbidden our videos or why they seem too shocking for some of the prudes in Britain. We're not trying to shock people. We sing about love. And we're sincere."
"We are free, we can do whatever we want".

2. I dont know about that. I can say however, that male fans are a minority for sure.

PowerPuff Grrl
23-11-2003, 20:09
Originally posted by darje
PowerPuff Grrl, well, Fidget could slap me. I'd probably pinch her nose, say "what a cute gesture" and walk away because my policy is to never hit girls. :P

Sonix, on the other side, we know nothing of him, wether he jokes or not. He lives in a troubled side of the world and I'm kind of convinced that his beliefs are guided by some mistaken ideal of what should be and should not be. Following Forre's example for once, I say that while he isn't around to defend his case, we don't talk about him. It might agravate you that he actually is around but we are talking about giving a fair trial to anyone whose beliefs breach anyone else's.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go officialy close a thread and start a helluva complicated game. :P


Please don't end this discussion prematurely, it hasn't even been resolved properly. Obviously you don't know much him so you can't make a fair assessment of out him. However others can. Moderators even. Just ask around.

His presence isn't a requirement him to be judged on the grounds of racism. His posts speak for himself. He constantly says that he never jokes even when describing his "occupation". And even if he were joking would that honestly be excuseable? Would you say the same thing if I said anything homophobic granted, of course, if I was joking? Considering the state of the forum now, I'm guessing I would at least have a major warning, if not an inactive membership, if I did. Oh, and I hope you were joking when you implied his comments be disregarded because he's from South Africa.

My "aggravation" is misinterpreted here (btw, aggravation is such an understatement). You see, being a newbie when he was around, all I ever saw from his posts were disturbing views on Blacks, Hitler, and the unappreciated glory of fascism. I was only slighty offended by his views but never really angered. I knew that they were only his views. But what I didn't now was that he didn't have the right to express his racism, but of course I was just a newbie... what did I know, besides it wasn't my responsibility.

What I am pissed about though is that all this time racism was tolerated even though it clearly went against the Forum Member Rules:

On this Forum, It Is Forbidden::
3. To discriminate other members concerning religion, sexual orientation and other personal beliefs!

When homophobia surfaces it is dealt with startling efficiency:

Originally posted by haku
I was hurt by the following quotes:

Originally posted by Fidget
an idea of two women having sex sickens me man+woman is natural. Woman and woman is not

That is a discrimination based on sexual preferences. Bad .. bad .. very bad! Kate is warned. Thanks for reminding.

But with racism...

Originally posted by Silenced Sonix
My reason for hating the blacks and the coloureds are numerous - they're destroying our economy, our infrastructure, our currency, even our f***ing LIVES!
...
Well, judging from the experience I've had with our black population during my life - THEY'RE ALL F***ING BRAINDEAD!
...
My pure-blood campaign would be against the blacks and colours from my country.

Concerning the Swatiska on his avatar:

Originally posted by Silenced Sonix
Tell that to mir - why did he have to take offense to my swastika-containing avatar, even though I still have my old one up? Oh... could it possibly be because he's Jewish?!

He even poses a threat:

Originally posted by Silenced Sonix
Wahtever your experience with Nazism or other extremist like that, we really don't care. Take your issues somewhere else, or end up at the coroner with a bullet in your eye. You have been warned...

And as to whether he was joking (which doesn't matter either way):

Originally posted by Silenced Sonix
I always take my work seriously - I have mentioned my job previously.


Anyhoo as I have said before, his posts speak for himself. His presence isn't required, the comments that were made he never took them back but rather stood by them. And I'll say it again, this may sound rather offensive however I really don't care what he said. What really ticks me off is that this is being swept under the rug almost as if nothing happened.

The inconsistencey found in the implementation of the Forum Rules is appalling.

PS: For anybody who wants to know this (http://forum.tatysite.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=489&perpage=25&pagenumber=1) is where I got his statements.

forre
23-11-2003, 20:30
PowerPuff Grrl, applying the rules in one case and not the other doesn't automatically imply the rule of an overall non-application. Some cases are noticed and another ones are not. Want to claim anything - report the case to a moderator.

shizzo
23-11-2003, 20:47
Oh, and I hope you were joking when you implied his comments
be disregarded because he's from South Africa.

A faulty comment - though Apartheid beliefs still exist in South
Africa, the case is NOT that the majority of Afrikaners harbor
white-supremacistic ideals. In fact, it's rather the opposite : a
more stable state of co-existence has begun to flourish in the
country among whites, blacks, and other ethnicities. Excusing
Sonix for stating his views just because he's an Afrikaner is
a misjudged deduction.

After reading several of the posts he made at this forum, it
seems that a tolerance against what he commented had been
established. Moderation should have stepped in - it wasn't as if
his expressing white supremacy was an isolated instance that
perhaps might have been overlooked.

spyretto
23-11-2003, 20:53
Who cares about Sonix, he's from South Africa...is he of a Dutch descent -some apartheid follower - or just a dark boy who likes to show off? There are all sorts of "white supremacists", "homophobes" etc. who just like to show off on the internet. Who can tell? I for one, could register as "Aryan pride" and start posting crap on the forum.

I didn't even feel his presence on the forum, our paths never crossed.

Oh, come on spyretto. This is a straight guy talking, and even I know the difference between eating and "eating" like she said. Jokes are jokes, and I found that quite amusing (besides, I definitely agree that "pancakes" is a gross misnomer - just look at TvA's current desktop). We all know there's a fair amount of homosexual people here, and we have to expect the unexpected.

No, I still don't understand what you're talking about, ypsidan04 "Pancakes" was a joke, "eating out" was a joke, "cannibalism" was a joke. If some people were offended so much by Fidget calling Miss Volkova's boobs "pancakes", I also feel kinda embarassed to read about 2 dozen sexual references and innuendos about Tatu every day.

I didn't read anywhere that tatysite.net is a "gay & lesbian" forum, it's a Tatu forum, and we don't even know if Tatu are lesbians. I pretty much doubt whether they are ( as much as one might be convinced that they are ). And all that has nothing to do with the fact that it's posted by gay people ( why would I care if you're straight or gay given the circumstances? ) it's just annoying to read it all the time ( not to mention repetitive and boring ). I'd say the same thing if it was posted by straight people, all the same. I'm not expecting people to stop, all I'm saying is that they're raising havoc for a minor misdemeanor. Concentrate on her "homophobic" comments instead.

Just to set the record straight.

I don't condone the way she put her views across, anyway. Maybe it was the heat of the moment. If gays and lesbians sicken her, it's her problem ( but maybe she's just an attention-seeker these days? just something else to ponder on )

goku
23-11-2003, 21:15
Ok.. Personally, I think someone who is offended by anything written or said is weak, and attached to humanity. Maybe it's because where I'm from, but I don't get how words can cause a person any emotional connection. People can say whatever they want, and if someone is offended by it, well then I'm better than them aren't I? Now I realise "governments" have organized things such as censorship and social views, which make you think certain things are bad. If you let the government influence you in any way unphysical, then you are unable to think for yourself and deserved it.

PowerPuff Grrl
23-11-2003, 21:21
Goku... I'm speechless.
I have already use up all of my energy in my previous rant to say much now, trust me though you'll most probably be hearing from others.

That wasn't a smart thing to say.

spyretto
23-11-2003, 21:24
I'd say this: let's mind our own lives, try to live as happily and trouble-free as possible, love the people we love, do the things we like to do and leave things like homophobia and racism behind. The past generations have struggled and paid in blood for us to enjoy all the priviledges that we enjoy. There's no need for more blood, and for something as inane and stupid as the "aryan race".

Lux
23-11-2003, 21:43
Originally posted by goku
Ok.. Personally, I think someone who is offended by anything written or said is weak, and attached to humanity. Maybe it's because where I'm from, but I don't get how words can cause a person any emotional connection. People can say whatever they want, and if someone is offended by it, well then I'm better than them aren't I? Now I realise "governments" have organized things such as censorship and social views, which make you think certain things are bad. If you let the government influence you in any way unphysical, then you are unable to think for yourself and deserved it.


i agree, but i dont think of it as weakness. if anyone is out to offend you, why give them that power? words intended to emotionally injure just don't get to me, most of the time. i don't get offended if someone says "gawd you're so butch" or "wow you're really femme" or "go back to your own country." it doesn't change me, it doesn't affect my life, so why should i be hurt by it? people who say that judge through a purely external perspective and the world doesn't function on everyone JUST making those assumptions. it's such closedminded bullshit. people who judge others based solely on the stereotyped image in their minds should open their eyes and realize that what makes the individual is biological, sociological, and circumstancial. [the last two having more influence because our genes are just the canvas on which things are painted, but the canvas varies from person to person. it's sets how people react and change, but even THAT is subject to change.]
it's an instance of people's narrow mindedness and ignorance that i want nothing to do with. however, if these people should want to change, i'll be right there.

as for the government, i view it has providing a structure for economic and sociologic control, which in this case is a good thing. it's there to provide certain ground rules while creating possibilities for freedom. and i won't get into the economic side, it doesn't apply here.

QueenBee
23-11-2003, 23:08
Ok.. Personally, I think someone who is offended by anything written or said is weak, and attached to humanity.

I don't agree :no: But I must say I have improved on this. I used to be very hurt by things said or written, but now things have gotten a little better. It all depends on who says it - if a girl in school tells me I have ugly hair, I don't pay attention, but if my mother tells me she doesn't love me - am I weak because I get hurt? Alot of people judge me because of what they have heard about me or my family. One of the men my grandmother married was jewish. I called him grandfather and loved him very much. Now suddenly half of the school thinks that I am jewish although I have absolutely no belief in any of the things jews believe in and no bloodbond with anyone jewish (even though it doesn't matter). It is not the religion in itself that bothers me, the thing that bothers me is that people look at me and think of me in a certain way because that's what they have heard. That is why it is good not to listen to things people say and create your own view instead. Being hurt by words - it can happen in my case. Words can kill, seriously. But I have grown stronger and do not pay attention anymore.

If words cannot hurt you - can they make you happy? If they can't hurt you - what is going to hurt you? Pain is a part of life. Happiness is a part of life. How do people express themselves? By talking, or writing. If I should not listen to peoples words or read peoples notes - how am I supposed to know what kind of a person this is? Alot of information lies in words - written or said. I will get hurt. We will all get hurt. Because it's part of life (but I have convinced myself I can destroy that part and ignore it but will it work?)

I mostly do not listen to what people say and think of me. Of course, if they think I am a nice person I get happy. If they want to hurt me with words they can go someplace else. I already know what it's like to be hurt and I will not allow it to happen again. At the end of the day their words have faded and they have most likely forgotten what they had said. And if they didn't forget it - it is because they feel bad and regret it.

If you let the government influence you in any way unphysical, then you are unable to think for yourself and deserved it.

Yes. Yes. The government. I hate it. Today's youth is influenced by all this crap. Media and whatnot. Luckily I am one of the few(?) that can create my own point of view by looking at things the way they are, and not beliving in people's explenations of these things. I will believe it when I see it - and even then it can be fake. I will not let media affect me because it turns everything upside-down.

haku
23-11-2003, 23:54
Originally posted by spyretto
I don't condone the way she put her views across, anyway. Maybe it was the heat of the moment. If gays and lesbians sicken her, it's her problem
It was not the heat of the moment. She was arguing with a lesbian at that moment. She chose the words she knew would hurt the most. It was deliberate.

QueenBee
23-11-2003, 23:59
Could somebody please explain something to me - because I think I misunderstood.

Did anyone get any warnings? And were these last warnings?

In the rules it says that it is forbidden to:

To discriminate other members concerning religion, sexual orientation and other personal beliefs!

So why was this "ignored"? I still don't understand. The people in charge talked about it, sure. But since this user did not follow the rules, will it just be ignored like this? *Is quite confused*

shizzo
24-11-2003, 01:25
Originally posted by goku
- Personally, I think someone who is offended by anything
written or said is weak, and attached to humanity.
- but I don't get how words can cause a person any emotional
connection.
- well then I'm better than them aren't I?

:bum:

I'm led to consider detailing the obvious superiority complex
you've developed inside yourself, but I'm at the same time
wary of being subsequently handed a warning for stating a
blatantly evident fact [even though, according to the
aforementioned quote, it shouldn't render any "emotional
connection" to what I'd actually be trying to say].

So instead, let me congratulate you on detaching yourself
from humanity's grip and rising above such trifle matters as
words, comments, discussions, and any other language-based
means of communication which might cause your nervous
system to react "emotionally". You evidently have transcended
to a level of idle indifference to this entire "humanity" thing
and should be admired for such an accomplishment.

:done:

ypsidan04
24-11-2003, 21:32
Originally posted by spyretto
I also feel kinda embarassed to read about 2 dozen sexual references and innuendos about Tatu every day.

I'm sorry I can't agree with you. :no: But I respect your opinion.

spyretto
24-11-2003, 22:48
I'm sorry I can't agree with you. But I respect your opinion.

hehe, help yourselves. I was just stating my opinion. Sometimes some of the comments go to the other side and get offensive for the persons of Yulia and Lena, but if it satisfies you so be it. :D

forre
24-11-2003, 23:30
Originally posted by goku
Ok.. Personally, I think someone who is offended by anything written or said is weak, and attached to humanity. Maybe it's because where I'm from, but I don't get how words can cause a person any emotional connection. People can say whatever they want, and if someone is offended by it, well then I'm better than them aren't I? Now I realise "governments" have organized things such as censorship and social views, which make you think certain things are bad. If you let the government influence you in any way unphysical, then you are unable to think for yourself and deserved it.

We are talking about members of the forum of different ages, with different experiences and different backgrounds. We are a part of a society and certainly not living in a jungle by ourselves. We are here to communicate through words and exchange some thoughts and maybe learn something. It's a matter of "to give" and "to take" and telling everyone that a one should have his/her own head to think with is not why people are coming here. We all can speak of people or things in our lives that produced a certain impact on us and I'm sure there we can say "Oh, it changed my life to the better". Aren't we all learnng from each other?