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Rachel
20-11-2003, 05:26
Do you approve of homophobia?

EDIT: forgot to ask, who wrote that post for you?! *rolls eyes*

Personal question should be asked in a PM. Igor placed the announcement, the translation was provided by the mods of the English forum upon Igor's request.

Kate
20-11-2003, 05:56
I_Love_Yulia, I presume Forre wrote the post.

And no, he doesn't approve of homophobia.

Everyone deserves a second chance. And I'm trying to be a good girl.

forre
20-11-2003, 06:05
Fidget, It was a question for Igor. If I wanted to write a post, I wouldn't ask Igor to do it, okay. The mods voted for your ban by 85%, where no one else was taken into this business. You stay here because Christmas is near and because of the good results of the negotiations between the mods of both English and Russian Form.

I_Love_Yulia, many people were dragged into the latest fight and to let everyone get out with a final warning was the decision. Please stay calm, be happy and enjoy the company. Is there any other choice? Hmmm .. I don't see a one.

Hugs and kisses to everyone. :rose:

Rachel
20-11-2003, 06:25
Originally posted by forre
The mods voted for your ban by 85% Why bother having a vote if you weren't going to even use the results? You probably didn't take them into account at all.

BTW, forre, I noticed you deleted the "please leave the forum Kate" post you made on Sunday morning rather fast *rolls eyes* What made you change your mind in less than an hour?!

forre
20-11-2003, 06:30
I_Love_Yulia, I haven't deleted, so the question about changing my mind is irrelevant. Rach, if you don't know who deleted and why and where, please avoid making your conclusions that fast.

The mods voted to see the tendency. Then the negotiations started as we bumbed into several problems, including elf's showcase on the net. There were grounds to ban another members too, so to be fair to the last point the mods decided to choose the option where all could stay.

Rachel
20-11-2003, 06:42
Originally posted by forre
I_Love_Yulia, I haven't deleted, so the question about changing my mind is irrelevant. Rach, if you don't know who deleted and why and where, please avoid making your conclusions that fast. According to my sources Igor saw the post and apparently you had deleted it yourself.

Also, don't go sending your girlfriend to send me PMs about me getting banned. Can't you do your own dirty work?

nath
20-11-2003, 06:45
Okay I love Yulia....nobody sent me...Forre didn't know i've made it...
Now....have a good day I Love Yulia...no more comment from me... ;)

Rachel
20-11-2003, 06:46
Originally posted by sunwalk
Okay I love Yulia....nobody sent me...Forre didn't know i've made it... Then I apologise for making that assumption. :)

forre
20-11-2003, 06:47
I_Love_Yulia, Hahahah! Thanks for it. The post is in its original place but the thread is in a trash can. Who did put the thread there? I have no idea. Any of the mods could do it. I didn't. Want a cap?

What PM's and from who? Do I ask anyone to send you PM:s??? Hmmm .. nope. I actually have the ability to do it myself. So, calm down. To clean your crap (off-top, chat, etc) is my dirty work, Rach. You are right.

nath
20-11-2003, 06:49
Thanks Rach..

Rachel
20-11-2003, 06:50
Originally posted by forre
I_Love_Yulia, Hahahah! Thanks for it. The post is in its original place but the thread is in a trash can. Who did put the thread there? I have no idea. Any of the mods could do it. I didn't. Want a cap? *Laughs at your post* You deleted it, and an hour later something different was stated. If you didn't delete the post then how come most people hadn't seen it even though they had read the thread before it was deleted?

forre
20-11-2003, 06:53
I_Love_Yulia, No.. I was asking again do you want a cap? Because I have the access to that thread. If you don't remember in details it doesn't mean you have all grounds to accuse me of something I did't do.

Rachel
20-11-2003, 06:55
Originally posted by forre
I_Love_Yulia, No.. I was asking again do you want a cap? Go on then, but it honestly doesn't prove anything as the cap could have been taken at any time.

forre
20-11-2003, 06:58
I_Love_Yulia, The quotes are there and I took the cap 5 minutes ago. So, I still don't know what you are implying and what is the problem. :dknow:

Rachel
20-11-2003, 06:59
Originally posted by forre
I_Love_Yulia, The quotes are there and I took the cap 5 minutes ago. So, I still don't know what you are implying and what is the problem. :dknow: I'm gonna send you a PM to explain, ok?

haku
20-11-2003, 07:04
So every participant in this thread got a final warning?

That's hardly fair. True, there was some name callings from several people, but they were neutral comments which could apply to anyone.

Only ONE participant made comments targetting someone else's sexuality.

Kate made homophobic comments.

She NEVER apologized for it, she even said that she stood by her point, that she thought lesbians were sickening and unnatural.

Yet, she's getting away with it.

What kind of a message does it send to the large majority of tatysite members who are gay?

I know for a fact that a lot of people felt really hurt by those comments, some even thought about leaving because they didn't feel welcome here anymore.

To the very least Kate should apologize for the homophobic comments.

forre
20-11-2003, 07:04
I_Love_Yulia, Sure, the cap is in your hotmail inbox.

haku, No, no, no. The warning was given only to elf, xena and I_Love_Yulia. Their statements and grounds weren't of the same weight but it was fair enough.

Kate
20-11-2003, 07:18
haku, I am truely sorry that my comments upset you. Let's leave it at that, please. :rose: If you want to talk, PM me.

Rachel
20-11-2003, 07:21
Originally posted by forre
I_Love_Yulia, Sure, the cap is in your hotmail inbox. Just had a look...I see the post was last edited 7/8 hours later. What you did was post it originally, change your mind, then change your mind again and post the original.There's no other explanation as hardly anyone saw it when it was first posted (about 10am UK time). But then as soon as you changed it you made it unavailable for anyone to read the thread. Don't ask me why because I have no idea. My only explanation is that you didn't want a certain female to see it - you regretted making the post.

BTW, your PM said
Originally posted by forre
please lighten up your humour a little okay?
Please tell me - what am I supposed to find humourous? Homophobia?

forre
20-11-2003, 07:27
I_Love_Yulia, I didn't change my post. I added the last line to it! Okay? If you don't remember you don't need to accuse me of anything. The post was modified exactly after 8 hours because during this time the voting was on. The mods are on different time, you know!! ;) If you don't know all the chronology and base all your speculation on random information, please avoid accusations. There was no secret for anyone. The thread was trashed long after and it WASN'T me who trashed it. OKAY?!!!!!! Enough of it.

Rachel
20-11-2003, 07:37
Originally posted by forre
[b]The thread was trashed long after and it WASN'T me who trashed it. OKAY?!!!!!! Enough of it. I wasn't even accusing you of that.

Well I give up because there's no point in talking to you, I shall quote what a well known person of this forum thinks of you "Lies lies and lies again."

BTW, you never answered my question about the PM.

Well, goodnight. It's 6.30am and I haven't even been to bed yet.

Bitty2002
20-11-2003, 07:39
I_Love_Yulia, No offense, I am on no-ones side here, but I just have a few comments and observations.

Why does it matter if Forre took her post off? Perhaps she took her post off in fear of upsetting certain people. Whatever the cause, she has her reasons, that is IF she even removed it.

I can't know for sure, but I have a feeling Forre is one of the mod's that saved your butt, Elf's and I guess Xena's from getting banned. You may not have cared to have it saved, but... Anyway, this is my take: Igor felt if Fidget was deserving of being banned, then so was Elf, yourself and other offenders. And I have nothing against any of you, I am not supporting anyone's actions that night. I personally feel that showcase of Elf's was not called for. Yes perhaps it was humorous at the time for everyone who was frustrated, but it was childish and hurtful. The goal was of course to hurt Kate, however, it didn't exactly make "our side"' of the argument look mature. We all acted immaturely that night. We can't place all the blame on Kate. Yes her comments were homophobic and hurtful to some people, often provoking, etc., but our comments back were not the nicest either.

Igor even mentioned on a post that other people needed to be looked at as well, not only Kate, when Forre talked about Kate being banned. So, to keep Elf, you, and others from getting the same "punishment" as Kate, the mods agreed to let Kate back. Maybe you do not think Elf, yourself, etc deserved the same punishment, but does that really matter when it comes to Igor's decisions? I am only speculating here of course.

In any case, Kate has her opinions, how ever rude or hurtful they are. She needs to be more aware of her comments and tactful on this board full of homosexuals and bisexuals. But I am offended by a lot of comments people make on here. Yes, Kate tends to be the author of a number of them. And while I share your opinions more than hers, even “our side” can go over the line. For example, when you told Kate you hoped Tatu would rape her, I found that highly offensive. When Elf made that webpage I thought it wasn't the best move.

This is not a personal attack on anyone. I have no hope for you or anyone, Elf, etc. to think I am bashing on them and defending Kate here. I do not support her actions. But before jumping on Forre's case, we all need to settle down and look at everything.

forre
20-11-2003, 07:46
Originally posted by I_Love_Yulia
I wasn't even accusing you of that.

Well I give up because there's no point in talking to you, I shall quote what a well known person of this forum thinks of you [b]"Lies lies and lies again."
BTW, you never answered my question about the PM.

Well, goodnight. It's 6.30am and I haven't even been to bed yet.

Lies? Nix. Told you, added the line in the post and didn't trash the thread.

Your PM? Lighten up your mood a little. You look upset to me. No reason really. And of course good night in this case. Sweet dreams! :rose:

Rachel
20-11-2003, 07:54
One last post before I go to bed...

Originally posted by Bitty2002
I_Love_YuliaWhy does it matter if Forre took her post off?Talk to me another time on MSN and I will explain to you why.

Originally posted by Bitty2002
For example, when you told Kate you hoped Tatu would rape her... Hoped? Where did I say the word hope? I didn't, I have a copy of the thread. Yes, I did make a reference similar to that though, but cast your mind back to exactly why it was said. And it was sarcasm as Kate seemed to think lesbian sex was the worse thing in the world.

I also seem to remember you taking the piss, so don't act as though you are innocent.

forre
20-11-2003, 07:57
I_Love_Yulia, I gave you the cap of the post where I was asking Kate to leave the Forum. What more proof are you looking for?

There's another one with both posts after the thread was reopened and after those two there are number of posts. Everyone could see the posts. I could edit spelling mistakes there and typos as I often do. But in that particular case I added the sentences. So judge for yourself before jumping on people. The Cap. (http://home.swipnet.se/~w-37363/Tatu/Tsite2.jpg)

nath
20-11-2003, 08:14
Originally posted by Bitty2002
I can't know for sure, but I have a feeling Forre is one of the mod's that saved your butt, Elf's and I guess Xena's from getting banned.
Huge respect to your post Bitty2002, not because Forre is the person whom I love, but because I'm a free person and because it is the Truth what you wrote.

It is sad to see that certain people simply remain blind because they cannot leave their grudge.
Does grudge make evolve the things?

Bitty2002
20-11-2003, 08:17
I_Love_Yulia, I never claimed to be innocent. I know I made a childish post on that thread, because I too was annoyed and frustrated. I stated that before: "We all acted immaturely that night." "We all" would include me.

It is obvious you are upset, I completely understand where you were hurt by certain comments. I am sorry, I do not have a photographic memory. I apologize for mis-stating your post. In any case, sarcastic or not, I am only saying that it was offensive to me. To me rape is not something I joke about. I am not trying to call you out or be down on you. I am just saying that we all say things we shouldn't that might offend others. To you something may seem innocent, but could be taken more personally by someone else. Such as Kate's comment. She made the mistake (?) of making such a comment on a board such as this. Had she been on a Christian forum, "we" would be the ones being yelled at. I am NOT defending her or her opionion. I tend to enjoy knowing my love is natural, ;) But to you her comments were hurtful, because homophobia is something most of us have had to face. She obviously doesn't respect or understand that.

Mainly, I just felt Forre wasn't guilty in this instance. I cannot know what happened behind scenes, and I would talk to you, but my MSN is not working for some reason. If you'd like PM me. However, from what I understand, it seems Forre was on your side here. I didn't think it was fair to keep after her. I know you are upset, but I do not want to see anyone needlessly kicked off this forum. If Forre indeed, did help keep you and others on the forum, by making "a deal" with Igor to invite Kate back, attacking her isn't going to endear her. You may not give a shit, but I personally don't want to see you or "most" anyone else go. Does that make any sense? I am not attacking you, please understand that.

xena225
20-11-2003, 09:23
I thought banning Fidget was an exaggerated reaction. It was the same extreme reaction as the moderators doing nothing when all that unpleasantness on the threads actually took place. She should have gotten a warning in time, end of story. A line would have been set that hopefully wouldn't have been crossed. But that's just my personal opinion.

Maybe next time the moderators will put a stop to such unnecessary ugly fights earlier, nip them in the bud, as it were, before they get out of control like they did then.

I STILL don't get why I got a warning: I was stating the obvious - 1) Do not feed the trolls, i.e. don't let yourself be baited, people, and 2) This thread is TOTALLY off-topic. (I said this after contacting two mods in PM's and pointing to what was going on, and nothing happened). Maybe my post was put a little sarcastically, but compared to what went on on this thread, and the Yulia topless thread, it was nothing but a call for reason and good sense.

I get a warning for that which could get me banned.

Sometimes I don't understand this forum.

And yet: If I see intolerance and trolling behaviour happening again, I will speak up (if the mods don't). I will never attack people personally on the forum, I never have, but I will speak up if I see intolerance and trolling happening unchecked. Should this get me banned, so be it. Keeping quiet in the face of intolerance and trolling has never been my way.

But hopefully next time the moderators will know when to intervene should something like this - God forbid - happen again.

:rose: for the mods who must sometimes hate their job.

xena225

freddie
20-11-2003, 12:37
That's exactly right. With all this talk on who deserved a ban and how we're all forgeting the obvious. The inability of certain people to intervene and stop the madness when it was going on. If the thread was closed, and a mod would tell people to calm down when all the needless slander began everything would be alright. That's what Echoed did with the "Yulia topless" thread when it showed similar tendencies to self-destruct, and it worked.
Xenna said that she sent two PMs to the mods and nothing happened. Well if you leave a thread like this opened and unmoderated for a while you're bound to get a result like this. When you provke a whole crowd of people most of them won't get offended enough to reply to provocations. But a few will. And there will always be those few in a single crowd. Whether they're right to respond and in what manner they respond is another question. Of course people will react more intensly to homphobic remarks on a forum that's predominately gay. It's common sense.

Another thing I want to mention is the banning process. I'll explain how a case should be conducted in legal cirrcumstances (I realize that this is not a court, but we are striving to be just here, right? And the legal system was designed to be just and fair to everyone). To reach a legitimate verdict certain principles need to be followed. Like the principle of objectivity, principle of equality, principle of solidarity, principle of publicity etc...
What I'm trying to say is that the banning process is discussed between a small oligarhy off people that can practicaly do whatever they please. No ban is being properly explained. If a mod is "feeling" like a certain thing deserves a ban, that is not enough. The ban should be explained by a specific rule in the forum rules and the reasons for the ban should be posted on the forum for everyone to see and make sure it was legitimate. That's how it is in a courtroom: The judge can feel that a certain act is good enough for a conviction, but he MUST follow the law, not what his gut tells him to do. Every conviction must be justifiable by a specific act in the law. However rules here are shaddy and easily bendable. All the discussions happen behind closed doors, the results of discussions are then often not followed ... that all reminds me more of chaos then a fairly organized process. Mods are just people. They are biased and subjective just like everybody else. We're all human and it's imposible to be completely objective. That's why we should have rules that would be written thoroughly, objetively and mainly which would apply to everyone without exception. Implementation of this rules in a specific banning process should be made known publicly so that people know exactly why a certain person is considered for getting banned. Yes you can say that we can take it or leave it, that the process is like it is and it'll always remain the same. You can. But don't ever claim that this process is just or objective. Cause it's imposible to reach anykind of objectivity if you make unexplained decisions behind closed doors.

I'm not trying to judge anyone here. What's done is done. I'm glad that no one got banned. I'm just trying to make some creative criticizm in case mods are faced with a similar situation in the future.

Tom Violence
20-11-2003, 14:34
I vrery much agree with the suggestion that moderation here should be more answerable and more transparent.

For instance, I don't understand why Fidget's reinstatment shouldn't be open to mature discussion? Not as a personal question of whether anyone here likes her or not. That one's quite easy enough to answer without a word being spoken.

But recent events have raised questions about the way the forum rules are implimented. Yes, other users broke the forum rules whilst squabbling with Fidget.

However, there is a difference between cynically laying bait and rising to it in the heat of the moment. I'm actually happy that so many people here wouldn't let one obstinate,awkward individual slur and insult them and the people they care about.

This place is important to me. I want to see it run in a way that the users of it are happy with. And for the reasons above, I would like to have seen Fidget's case viewed differently from that of the other people involved. If indeed she was first to provoke others, as so many reports suggest.

That said, I don't enjoy raking the ashes of this particular unfortunate incident. I'm more interested in making sure that the rules of this forum function effectively in future - running in a way that pleases the great majority of the people here. I wouldn't post at all, if I didn't feel there wasn't still a problem that will sooner or later recur.

And now I'll go away again.

QueenBee
20-11-2003, 15:10
I think we are all blaming it way too much on the mods. I agree that they should have maybe closed the thread, it wouldn't be so hard. But then I am sure that some people would complain, because they "can't speak their mind". The mods shouldn't be the ones always fixing things, we should keep calm and think before we act. I believe discussions are really good, if it's done in a nice matter. Accepting eachother's opinions. But what happened there I thought was way too wrong. I seriously clicked "Refresh" every two seconds and there was always a new post in that thread. Oh well, I did not feel offended personally so.. I cannot really relate to how others felt. I think rape is kind of inappropiate to joke about though, because maybe somebody here has been sexually assaulted (which I think is absolutely awful and I think the person is strong for moving on and feeling happy now). But then again, I am not trying to bash you Rachel because I am sure I could have written a comment like that too, sometimes I just don't think of what I am doing and how it can affect others.

I hope we will discuss and still be friends. :rose: I do believe Fidget's comments were very very bad. I am not bisexual or homosexual but if I was I think I would have been very offended. Nobody has right to say lesbians are sick and disgusting (Now I'm not saying she said this but it was something in the same pattern). Maybe that is her opinion, but then she should build her sentences in other ways. "I respect lesbians, but I do not think that lesbianism is natural". Of course we would have stormed in rage when we heard that too, but at least it is more mature.

People will not respect you if you do not respect them.

haku
20-11-2003, 15:46
I understand what people are saying about presenting your opinion more politely.

But i don't agree. Like i said in the Forum undermoderated thread, in my opinion, comments insulting people's gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, nationality, or religion should not be tolerated. They are very hurtful, even when put politely.

At the very least, mods should delete them when one appears.

I've often seen words like f*ck, d*ck, or p*ssy being deleted by mods. How come "women having sex sickens me" was left untouched?

Like i said in my first post in this thread, only one participant used comments targetting other people's sexuality, other participants used neutral comments. In my opinion, other participants should not have received a final warning since what they said was far less offensive.

EeZeReal
20-11-2003, 16:04
I don't wanna get caught up in another arguement..But I must say...

I STILL don't get why I got a warning: I was stating the obvious - 1) Do not feed the trolls, i.e. don't let yourself be baited, people, and 2) This thread is TOTALLY off-topic. (I said this after contacting two mods in PM's and pointing to what was going on, and nothing happened). Maybe my post was put a little sarcastically, but compared to what went on on this thread, and the Yulia topless thread, it was nothing but a call for reason and good sense.

I get a warning for that which could get me banned.

It was totally wrong to give xena225 a warning, she was just trying to restore the peace in that thread...I myself said more offensive things in that thread and never got a warning.. :dknow:

That is all

forre
20-11-2003, 17:23
Thanks for all hints. Hopefully some of them will be used in the future. As said, mods are not the machines to follow each disagreement, sometimes we are not even here of natural reasons. Then we all have our own views and life expeiences and base our reactons accordng to the latter ones. Very human, isn't it?

For the time being, no one got banned and it's positive.

Cheers to everyone. :rose:

teeny
20-11-2003, 17:45
(quotes from Igors post)
1. The ban of the member Fidget is considered ill-founded since for similar infractions (provocations, insulting members of the forum, repeated violations of the forum rules) other members had received only a warning.
Let me get this right: homophobic messages (or just saying that it's not natural and comparing it to cloning (or what ever it was)) are just as bad as defending oneself/others?
I would believe it to be the right decision, if there was some kind of remorse to be seen. This is a bit like saying: Homophobic remarks only count as wrong, if you keep silent when hearing them

2. All the participants in the hostilities have received their last warning and in the case of another violation of the forum rules (deliberate provocation, insulting members of the forum, and other violations of the forum rules) the member will be banned without any discussion. Some of the forum members have participated in these kinds of hostilities far more than once, and in general their remaining here can be called a gift
So in short: one member starts a fight, gets banned, other receives a warning.
Same member gets un-banned and all participants are now in the danger zone.
How in the world should we respect the forum rules when we see them being broken by “top”-members all the time?And if we, the normal members, act like the members with power, we get banned or get last warnings in a second.

Wish had a “cool” signature that I could hide behind in the line of fire. Must say though: I’m glad to see that at least the signature has been changed.

(sorry for the late response..)
noone got banned and thats: :none:

Igor
20-11-2003, 18:00
Зае**ли! :) Не пойти бы вам ТАТУ пообсуждать?