Gay High School

[LenochkaO]

Have just spotted this article. So, anyone got any opinions?

New York to open gay high school

Gary Younge in New York
Tuesday July 29, 2003
The Guardian

New York City is set to create America's first public secondary school specifically devoted to gay, bisexual and transgender students.
The Harvey Milk High School, named after San Fransisco's first openly gay supervisor who was assassinated in 1978, will enrol about 100 students this autumn in a newly renovated building in Greenwich Village.

The new school's principal, William Salzman, said its curriculum will be academically challenging for the 14- to 18-year-olds, and will follow mandatory English and maths courses while specialising in computer technology, arts and cookery.

"This school will be a model for the country and possibly the world," said Mr Salzman, a former Wall Street executive. "We intend to have 95% of our students go on to college. We want to steer these kids in the right direction."

The school is supported by New York's republican mayor, Michael Bloomberg. "I think everybody feels that it's a good idea because some of the kids who are gays and lesbians have been constantly harassed and beaten in other schools," he said yesterday. "It lets them get an education without having to worry."

The number of hate crimes against gays and lesbians almost doubled in America between 1992 and 2002.

But establishment of the school drew criticism from rightwingers, who believe a separate school is unnecessary and a waste of taxpayers' money.

"Is there a different way to teach homosexuals?" asked New York's conservative party chairman, Mike Long. "Is there gay math? This is wrong. What next? Maybe we should have schools for chubby kids who get picked on."

The school will be an expansion on a 19-year-old alternative public school programme previously limited to just two classrooms.

That programme was founded by the Hetrick-Martin Institute, a gay rights youth advocacy group, which will continue to play a leading role in the new school.

[Bitty2002]

I understand the want and possible need for this. Because currently, as a society we are in a period of transition. People are out and trying not to feel ashamed, yet still millions hate. But without gays and straights mixing, will we ever reach the goal of finding common ground? If they are separated now, people will grow up continueing to believe they deserve to be called "different".

But I guess they are different in many ways, and in those ways they are at risk. But just like the african american movements, we will not change unless we are forced to tolerate/accept what is different.

This may cause people to target an entire school, hate crimes on an entire school...a bit scary.

I have mixed feelings. This is tough.

[Dent]

Well iґm against it because i think itґs way more prejudice to separate a group from another. If we want to try to stop people hate each other, we must learn how to live together with other human being.

Cya

Dent :cool:

[LenochkaO]

I decided not to post my own opinions on this initially, because I wasn't entirely sure how I felt. However, I feel increasingly strongly that ghettoisation is a bad thing. Imagine the outrage there would be if someone had suggested separate schools for those of Jewish origin, to stop them getting picked on by non-Jewish classmates and teachers?

I wholeheartedly believe that people should be able to go through school without coming in for flack over their sexuality, race or religion, but weeding out people who "can't fit in" is insidious, and who knows where it would end?

[Charles]

As a temporary measure, this could be a good thing. Part of the recent supreme court desictions about affirmative action in colleges is it recognized that the culture of a university is important to the college experience. If this unique school provides a more positive environment, then its cool.

In the long run, this is a bad idea. The rest of society needs to get a clue.

As for this being a waste of resources, 100 students is what percent of the New York city school system? At that scale, its just a matter of how you group students.

Although this does sound like segregation, I'll bet this is a school that you have to ask to go to, and aren't at all guaranteed a spot. Its a case of you can if you want, as compared to a case of you can't even if you want to.

[denial]

OMG!!!

[snowangel14]

Damn!..i voted the wrong thing...i pick no....definitely
..coz..its their life and we shouldn't intefere it.
.its not our business...juz let them be what they want to be...
why force?

[skye]

well....it maybe a good idea but I voted for "not sure" I think gay people are nothing in particular except for their sextuality, so I personally think you dont have to seperate that you are "different" from others :rolleyes: (So I don't support gay olympic.. I would prefer you join olympic and won the first place then proudly say that you are a gay!) but in a good way that you may getting easier to get a lover because nobody will freak you out in such school...

[Khartoun2004]

I'm not really sure how I feel about this either. I think in the short-run it is a great idea and will be very benefical to the students who attend. However I still firmly stand behind the believe that the only way to cause change is to make people face the source of their fear and hate through education. Until their has been a change in the way the majority of society views homosexuality I think this school will allow GLBT students to learn in a safe environment.

All Gay high schools aren't a new thing for the US anyways. There are several privately funded high schools around the counrty. This school is just the first one to be funded by the government. Also the students that go to these schools have experianced severe verbal, physical, and emotional harassment/ abuse. Some have been thrown out of their homes and others are HIV positive. My point is that the schools aren't just for any gay student, only those that wouldn't get an education if their weren't schools like the one in NYC.

Also I'm sorry but the right-wing in this counrty can Kiss my very gay ass. OT: has anyone heard about the amendment they're trying to make to the constitution about how marriage should only be between a man and a woman?

[QueenBee]

I'm not gay so I can't speak for the gay people here, but I do not agree with it. There should not be any black school, there should not be any white school, there should not be any heterosexual school and no homosexual schools, I think people should all be together. I mean, it's school, so what, people are gonna teach the gay pholks different stuff? :dknow: I can understand how it would help the gay people though, maybe they have problems in school because of it, and that won't happen if everyone else in the school also is gay. But I don't think it solves any problems, it's more like running away from them.

[nasnedagoniat]

I agree queenbee, what if there were an all heterosexual school [no gays allowed!!!], that's just crazy, and someday they'll realize this.

[QueenBee]

nasnedagoniat, exactly. I think we should clear our mind :) The youth (and Im talking about really young people) might start to think "Oh the gays are bad, I cant even have them in my school so they need seperate schools" or something! Awful :(

[Lцfberg]

I agree too. Iґve got a friend in school thatґs gay and heґs unfortunately bullied.
Itґs better to solve the problems locally. If someone should be moved, it should be the bullies. Donґt let the bullies set the rules!

[Mossopp]

I think this 'gay high school' is a stupid idea!
I can see that the people behind the idea have the best interests of gay teenagers at heart and I appreciate that - I would have given anything for someone to have cared 2 sh*ts about how I was feeling when I was 16 and trying to deal with being gay - but keeping gay people and straight people apart can only cause harm.
Yes, I would have liked to have had some kind of refuge from the bullying at school. Yes, I would have liked to have had someone to talk to. And yes, I would have given anything to be able to meet other gay teens who were going through the same problems, but I definately wouldn't have wanted to be shut away from the outside world and not have been able to have any straight classmates as a result of this!
This whole idea of having schools for gay kids and schools for straight kids reminds me of those awful times years and years ago when blacks were kept separate from whites. Nothing good can come from segregation - integration is the only way forward. The only way those narrow-minded, ignorant cretins who picked on me at school will ever come to accept gay people is if they mix with them, become friends with them and realise that we're not "wierd" or "sick". There is no way this will ever happen if the gay kids are separated from everyone at high school age, as it's around this time in your life that you begin to really form your opinions and judgements that will effect the way you think for the rest of your life.
I don't want to be shut away in some special school or even some segregated workplace like some leper exhiled on a remote island! I want people to accept me as a human being and treat me no differently to anyone else.

[Kappa]

I realize most of those that have responded are straight, excepting a few before myself.

Most of you KNOW I was beaten in High School, and in my time around that joint I would have given half my kidney and the rest of the other to be in a gay High School. It's not that I think that racial segregation was a bean compared to sexual segregation, but white people didn't try making black people white by painting them white: heterosexuals DO TRY making us straight by raping us.

This gay high school doesn't try to segregate gay students from hetero ones, it creates a secure space for study for the students that have lived in fear of being hit or raped or killed, thus not being able to study in complete peace as it ought to be. Until an intolerant society like ours completely accepts that gay people are not only adults and that we're not perverted people, I consider it better to create a safe environment for gay youngsters.

[Lцfberg]

I see your point. Now Iґve changed my opinion. Itґs good that there is a school for homosexuals. As long as the gays donґt feel that they donґt have a choice.
If they feel comfortable in their "normal" school, thereґs no idea moving. But for people like you these schools are needed.

[QueenBee]

darje, I agree with that, actually. Very good point. *thumbs up* I think that its a way to protect gay people, but I still think that all roses have thorns.. Kids can be so cruel, of course I would rather want all to be together and live in peace but right now (even though its the year of 2003) everyone still doesnt accept gay people... :( If there should be a school like this, I hope it will be out of free will to enter that school and not "Oh youre gay, youre not going to that school cause thats for straight people!" bizarre... Whats gonna come next? An all gay country? :spy:

[Lцfberg]

The best would be if the teachers and staff could just learn to stop the fights and stop the bullies.

[QueenBee]

Lцfberg, no, the best would be if there were no bullies in the first place. ;)

Edit: Off-topic, but, HOLY COW my name is in your signature!

[Lцfberg]

What are you gonna say next?
The best would be if there were no schools? ;)

[QueenBee]

Lцfberg, you read my mind! :D

[Lцfberg]

Well, that was what I wanted to suggest in the first place. :D

[Tom Violence]

At the age of twelve I changed schools, because of the amount of physical and psychological abuse I suffered at my local secondary school. This was simply the product of a bitter-hearted herd mentality in my peers. It wasn't about my sexuality or anything specific - except maybe that I was open about wanting to learn, in an environment where that wasn't cool.

Changing schools was hard. I was brought up not to run away from problems, but it did mean an end to the abuse I had been suffering. It's impossible to speculate what lasting effect staying at that school might have had, but even having left when I did, it's taken long enough to rebuild my self-esteem. And, finally getting to the point, this is why I'm in favour of this idea.

Teenhood is a hard time, there are few people more limitlessly cruel than teenagers without sentimental education. The hurt they cause to their victims often lasts years. So I'd much rather see those gay teenagers who want to study in a comfortable, supportive environment able to do so. Hopefully this will enable them to develop into self-assured adults, without the type of emotional difficulties abuse so often creates. Allowing some poor teenagers to suffer isn't the way to re-educate society. We should let everyone have the best chance to flourish thoroughly. And If gay people can navigate their teenage years with as few obstacles as possible, their self-assured adulthood ought to be best way to show homosexuality in a positive light. Whatever that means - as if we expect straight people to be good examples of their 'kind'.

I'm not sure whether I'm getting my point across or not. My instinct is against segregation, but my experience guides me away from my instinct.

[Khartoun2004]

Darje that was well said. I totally agree with you. Just this past year I had to be removed from my Math class because the teacher and students were making homophobic comments and my phsychologial as well as my physical well being was threatened. I barely passed the class for the year as a result and now my GPA is messed up.

Gay high schools sometimes mean the difference between life and death for some GLBT students. Let's not forget that GLBT youth account for 30% of the 500,000 completed suicides in the US every year or if you will 1/3 of the gay population. I don't know about the rest of you but that troubles me greatly.

It's all noble to talk about changing peoples' opinions but what do gays do until that happens. Just grin and bare it? I hardly think that's a fair judgment to pass. I also think that the fact that the US government is willing to support a gay high schools shows how far the gay rights movement has come. Even though the country is currently being totally controlled by the right-wing. Which in the US has always been against GLBT rights.

The gay community should in my opinion be celebrating this as a victory. It shows that people are finally acknowledging that there is a serious problem of harassment and that they are trying to fix the problem. Even if the gay high school isn't the best solution, at least it's a step forward and a temporay solution.

[Charles]

If %95 of the graduates from this school do in fact go on to college as the principal states, and that is significantly higher than the city average (and I bet it is), then you will eventually get a heterosexual student wanting to go there for the acedemics alone. What then? If you tell a straight kid he can't go there because of his sexaul orientation, then isn't that a kind of segregation? Even if there is an equally good school he or she could go to, the US Supreme Court ruled against the idea of seperate-but-equal schools ages ago.

As I said before, short term, this is good. Long term, everyone else needs to get a clue.

[LenochkaO]

http://www.hmi.org/Youth/HarveyMilkSchool/default.aspx

The Harvey Milk School, a collaborative effort between The Hetrick-Martin Institute and the New York City Department of EducationЃfs Career Education Center Alternative High School Program, is the nation's first accredited public high school designed to meet the needs of gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender and questioning youth (LGBTQ).

I'm familiar with the expression LGBT, but what does "Questioning" mean in this context?

[PowerPuff Grrl]

Originally posted by darje
but white people didn't try making black people white ...

Ok, this is totally off topic but I just have to say that yes, actually they kind of do... but this is neither the place nor time.


I have to agree with Charles here, no matter how rough it is for gay students segregation is never the answer, it'll only perpetuate the problem.

The only solution to homophobia is to bring awareness to the issue. Have more GLBT associations into the schools. Punish the shit out of students who would dare harass a student on the basis of their sexual orientation. Actually implement the ideals of tolerance onto the school system because based on precedence, it is bound to work.

All this segregation thing is going to do is create a bubble of false security for GLBT students that will pop after they graduate. No matter what, these students will face reality and will have to deal with homophobia. I can only imagine that having that kind of sudden realization would be more traumatizing than what gay students face already.

[russkayatatu]

I'm pretty sure "questioning" is something like "bi-curious"...i.e., you don't know but you think you might be gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender etc.; you're "questioning" your sexual identity. And in this context I guess it means that this high school is open to and for the needs of everyone who thinks of himself or herself as "not straight."

[forre]

I voted no. Why to separate gay people? Are they sick or something? Sounds kinda weird.

[skye]

Originally posted by queenbee
darje, bizarre... Whats gonna come next? An all gay country? :spy:

Lena said that she wants to be the president of gay world :lol: If those really come true, Lena could make her dream come true :lol: But to be honest, not all gay people like them :rolleyes: :lalala:

[Kappa]

Lena said that she wants to be the president of gay world If those really come true, Lena could make her dream come true But to be honest, not all gay people like them

Nooooooo, but I certainly wouldn't mind Lena as my president, queen, tyran or mistress... :lol: Wipe the last one. :D

forre, it is not that we're sick, but as Charles said, it is a good short-term idea while society changes its ways with homosexual youth. I am sure that while some straight people also suffer from bullying, it is ten times worse when you go out from abuse in school into abuse at home, in the street, segregation in restaurants, public bathrooms... etc.

Then again, Charles, I turn your questioning to the other side: what about all those times in which a gay youngster was denied admitance to this certain school activity, segregated not only by schoolmates but by teachers, given low grades only because of his/her sexuality? I think it's quite fair to do to brilliant intolerants what they did to brilliant homosexuals.

[karxwp]

I voted no...instead of making people realize all the people are the same and that it doesn't matter race, or sexuality they are making that difference bigger...oookaaay you save the bulling and stuff like that...but don't you think the school will be a target for homophobics?

[Charles]

Originally posted by darje
Then again, Charles, I turn your questioning to the other side: what about all those times in which a gay youngster was denied admitance to this certain school activity, segregated not only by schoolmates but by teachers, given low grades only because of his/her sexuality? I think it's quite fair to do to brilliant intolerants what they did to brilliant homosexuals. [/B]

An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth? Then soon we shall all be eyeless and toothless (with my apologies to Ghandi). The examples you cite are morally wrong, yes, but punishing "brilliant intolerants" might serve to perpetuate hate, not solve it. This school in a sense is a positive reward to compensate for hateful treatement. Gay students are knocked down by society, and this school can help them back up.

[XSpex]

I don't think gay students need a special place like a whole high school for them.
It sounds weird, how can we learn to be tolerante if such segregation is made?

[Kappa]

I still insist.

I may be resented, but the reason why I am not studying in a good high school is because a homophobic teacher gave me F's in Math through the whole year, when I wasn't even bad at the subject, thus making me go into extraordinary exams to pass Math and missing the period of entrance of the high school I wanted to go in. How should I feel? Grateful that thanks to him, I have to get my high school certificate on my own, with no teachers to help me on the way?

This is pointless. The only thing I say is that I like the idea of this high school, because it provides a safe environement for queer students.

[Kappa]

Originally posted by XSpex
It sounds weird, how can we learn to be tolerante if such segregation is made?

At the cost of 900 gay adolescents killed per year, if not more? It is not fair that for heterosexual people to learn to be tolerant, they have to get scandalized about us getting killed.

Think X-men, people. People will not learn tolerance until they have us missing from their society, and even then it'll be a while. I have seen the most gruesome murders, made by boys barely my age. The reason? "Oh, he was a fag."

[parrish122]

Hmmmm....I'm torn on this one.

Because my mind agrees that people won't learn to accept us if we withdrawl from society. That is part of the reason I am so out. I have the rainbow sticker on my car, I even have gay pride symbols on my checks. So clearly, I think it is important to be as out as I can.

However, I can't forget the abuse I took at school when I was a teenager, and I wasn't even out then. My friend Samantha *was* out, and she went through more hell than I care to remember.

With both of us, the large majority of the teachers looked the other way when we were picked on or even attacked. I still, even 17 years later, can look down at my right hand as I'm typing this and see a scar I picked up during one of those attacks.

If we'd been given the chance to go to a gay high school (assuming that by some miracle our parents wouldn't have flipped out) I know both Samantha and I would have jumped at the chance.

A better solution would be, I think, to somehow make the schools care about the welfare of *all* their students. It seems to me that we *are* moving towards more acceptance. Much more so than when I was in high school.

But should we leave gay teens in harms way? It is all well and good to talk about eventual acceptance.....but that doesn't mean much to the kid who has just gotten beaten, or even killed.

<Sigh> I guess I'm rambling. I'll stop now.

Parrish

[Kappa]

I agree with parrish. I guess I am too sensitive about this but I'd rather see gay youth being protected than being used as a way to get heterosexual people to be tolerant about us. Just that.

[rylettia]

In this case, I highly doubt that constant contact will lead to acceptance any time soon. Teens are very insecure and impressionable. Homosexuality is the main target of insults, and at this age where fitting in and popularity is law, most kids will say "this is so gay" if everyone else will. If you don't, you jeopardize your social status, and the joke's on you. Well, that saves them, and the trend continues. If the hate crimes have doubled in the past ten years, isn't it obvious that gradual tolerance isn't quite working?

True, not everyone hates or abuses gays, but then again, they're not the problem here. Will a BULLY teen change after going to school everyday with homosexual people? It's like giving him or her cleaned and gutted fish in a barrel to hunt. The bully has to live with the gay school mates for at least four years, maybe s/he'll change! Well...a gay student might have to live with abuse for at least four years, maybe she or he should just start accepting it? ><

It may be a temporary, four-year fix for a kid, but that's four years away from abuse, four years to mature with people who understand and empathize, and yet another four years for homophobes to grow up. In the "adult" world after high school, even the tiniest bit more of maturity and acceptance than there was in high school is present. It may be leaving heaven for hell, but would you rather grow up leaving hell for hell?

Darje is right: we have been denied opportunities. The lower side of the graduating class of my school is still accepted to prestigious private colleges like Stanford or Johns Hopkins. It has a "legacy" so to speak. However, I'd probably leave it in a second to be in a more comfortable environment. Hell, I'd give both of Darje's kidneys and mine :P Though, if I do leave, it'll probably be because I was expelled. If the head master or my advisor found out I was gay (or just paid attention), there would be so many parents lined up to enroll me for public school/psychiatric therapy, it wouldn't even be funny. Luckily, I only fear for my physical safety sometimes...mostly, all they can take from me are opportunities. Is that worse?

Race segregation is quite different from this. Racism is a physical, superficial hatred. Homosexuality is regarded as morally or religiously violating. Isn't it defined as a "sickness"? I'm guessing hate based on belief is stronger than hate based on aestetics.

And...erm, it said they INTENDED to have 95% of the class continue to attend college. If I was trying to propose something for government funding, I would say that same thing. No sane principle would advertise his school as a breeding ground for cretins.

[LenochkaO]

I had a feeling that there were arguments like this in favour of the school - am quite glad I went for the "don't know" option rather than an outright no...

<changes mind more often than her underwear :) >

[Khartoun2004]

ok here is something for all of you to think about...

When I was 8 years old I was ganged up on by about 18 kids at my school everyday because it was leaked that my father is an out and proud gay man. Also in addition to that torment there is the fact that my teacher stood by and watched as the kids circled around me on the playground. And when the principle was informed of the harassment and abuse by my mother, she did nothing either. First of all I don't think I need to go into the psychological damage that was done to me. I had what you would call a mental break after a year of bottled up emotions. Then there are the physical scars I have from getting my ass kicked.

Not all areas of the US are bad places to live. i.e. Massachusetts which has legislation against hate crimes targeted at homosexuals. However legislation doesn't help prevent the harassment from happening. And it's even worse in some parts of this country where there aren't laws protecting our rights. Hate crimes, harassment, murder, rape etc. are problems that need solution right now, not just future plans. You are all bringing up segregations. look at how long it took the African Americans to get their rights after the Emancipatiion Proclamation... 100 years. Are we to wait 100 years before LGBTQ students have a safe learning environment so that they can become well adjusted adults ready to comtribute to society? I say Hell NO! Your all focusing on the future, but we need to focus on the present. What can be done now to help the situation? Bulid more publicly funded gay high schools.

I'm with Darje and other people for the gay high school because of my experiances and the experiances of my friends. I can't in good conscious say no to a resource that could help so many of the friends and their friends. Being a student is hard enough without having to worry about your sexual orientation interfering with your education.

[Charles]

Originally posted by rylettia

Racism is a physical, superficial hatred. ... I'm guessing hate based on belief is stronger than hate based on aestetics.

I can't let that go unchallenged. Racism is a very deeply rooted hate indeed. Racism is about belief, not just aesthetics. I see very little difference between what happened to Matthew Shepard and to some blacks in the 50s and 60s.

Understand, please, I'm not trying to say hating gays isn't bad. It is that bad, and so is rasicm.

[parrish122]

Charles, you bring up a good point. It's always saddened me (not to mention puzzled me) when I've seen gays be racist and vice versa. Both groups have been victims of the same type of hatred. Interestingly enough, the Bible has been used to support slavery *and* to support hating homosexuals...which only proves that people will twist *anything* to support what they believe.

Kartoun, thank you for sharing what happened to you with us. I know that couldn't have been easy for you to tell. And I am *very* sorry that happened. But I think your telling that story makes people more aware of what goes on in our schools, and what needs to be changed. Plus anyone who has gone through that sort of thing will know that they aren't alone, when they read what you've written.

I think that we need to *really* focus on educating people. If you don't already write your Sen and Rep (assuming you are in the US), then do so. Learn about what human rights issues are coming up and let your elected officals know where you stand. <Smile> I even used to send letters to Jesse Helms, when he was still my Sen., and I *knew* I'd never change *his* mind.

But he knew where I stood. And you never know when you might influence someone, if you don't try.

Parrish

[smilie faces]

Well.. being lazy as I have become recently, i haven't read all the posts, but mostly,
today my mum came home talking about this "gay highschool" at New York for gay kids, she resumed to me that it was so these children could be safe from abuse and she also said that some where already condemning it ... i answered "well, good for them , there they'll be safe from shitheads who would wan't to harm them.." my mum was kind of satissfied by my remark, then my stepdad said somethin I can't recall but I wasn't happy with it.. the thing is.. I tought I agreed totally to it.. and then i come here and read the other side to it.. if these kids are taken away... then.. the gay community would be provoking their own "apartheid" that's not the way to deal with it.. but.. i still lean more on the thought that they're gonna be safer .. and given the opportunity to focus on their studies, instead of thinking if they're gonne be beaten up or not, and growing up more confident in themselves..
of course .. an whole gay school might be an easy target for untolerant groups..
it's a difficult decision actually..

[Kappa]

*sighs* That is the point. You people have a gay high school (and god knows how many more of those all around the country), but in third-assed countries like mine, things like that will never happen.

We have to live through either denial or physical pain just for heterosexual people to get tired about beating us, killing us and taking away our dignity as equals of them? NOT ALL OF THEM are bad, I am conscious of that, but as rylettia said, prolonged contact with us will not liven up the situation: it is the gay kid that suffers in this situation, not the bully.

[karxwp]

what is weird to me is that this school is located in NY and not in SF :D pretty funny...anyway I still think it's not a good idea...it could become the target of many groups...specially homophobics...

and still I don't think it's a good idea to segregate from the society

[Lux]

grouping people together based on orientation is just the same as doing so with ppl of color back in the days of north vs. south. its a horrible idea. you want to create diversity by integrating everyone of different backgrounds, etc. in a world where gay ppl are a minority, grouping them together in a school puts more emphasis on the fact that they ARE a minority. the minority should be right alongside the majority, interacting, and learning about each other.

[XSpex]

Honestly I don't want people been abused at school just because they are different. But segregation from society is not a soluction to intolerance.
What is what I do? I respect people and treat everyone as my equal.

Originally posted by parrish122
A better solution would be, I think, to somehow make the schools care about the welfare of *all* their students. It seems to me that we *are* moving towards more acceptance. Much more so than when I was in high school.


I'm totally agree with this.

[Kappa]

karxwp, believe it or not, San Francisco is a gay mecca but it is not the capital of the gay world. And this school is not the first gay one, but it is in a highly populated city with more academical importance than SF so it's obvious that it gets more attention.

Honestly I don't want people been abused at school just because they are different. But segregation from society is not a soluction to intolerance.
What is what I do? I respect people and treat everyone as my equal.

That is the point. You, no offense meant, are a minory, a minory that doesn't have to be taught how to respect and tolerate. While the big majority that still abuses us doesn't learn to be tolerant, it is better to "segregate" as you call it, because its only goal is not to alienate gay youth from society but to prepare them safely for it.

[karxwp]

darje, I know it a gay mecca would be Netherlands, Australia, New Zealand or now the newest addition Canada...

Anyway I still don't think its a good idea, the reason? to me it sounds as crazy as making a school in the states just for latinos or for black people. It makes the difference bigger instead of trying to co-exist in the same environment...that's the great thing of my new university....a loooot of gays here and there and no one says a thing...pretty civilizated...

[Kappa]

¬¬ There's a lot of gays in your new school and no one says a thing because no one is out of the closet in there. That's the key of convivence between all sectors of society: secretiveness? Yeugh.

Admit it: latinos and black people are not in the same kind of segregation gay people are. For god's aches, latin-segregated people are the MOST VIOLENT people I have EVER met (and suddenly I remember that I am latin myself). Black people face, day by day, even less segregation: to hit a black student in a school is like you hit any other student, black or white, penalized with temporal expulsion or something of the matter. But in a shitload of states, to hit a gay student is a rightful way to "straighten" him up. The segregation is NOT the same, not the same case, not the same kind. This is against romantic interests, not racial matters!

To wrap the case up, at least on my side, I'd rather go to a school where my ass is protected, so that I can study in peace and be more prepared for the adult world that awaits me, than to be in a school where no one will care if I am beat or not and where teachers will use my sexuality as an excuse to give me low grades.

[karxwp]

¬¬ There's a lot of gays in your new school and no one says a thing because no one is out of the closet in there. That's the key of convivence between all sectors of society: secretiveness? Yeugh.

HAHAHAHAHAHHA In the closet??? yeah right...specially on the sexuality weekend...with a big condom balloon and a rainbow VW and a biiiiig flag and some flyers about gay safe sex....you can walk anyday of the week and see couples being affective so I don't think they are in the closet...unless being in the closet means to show the whole school your affection towards someone of your same sex :gigi: of course the gay population is minimum but something is better than none at all...

What happened in my classroom is a different matter.

Also doing a school for gay people sounds ridiculous to me...it's like starting what homophobes said "I don't hate them but sent all of them to an island..."

[QueenBee]

The whole thing of thinking about ever coming out in my school scares me. No, I'm not gay myself, but if there is someone in my school, and they let others know, bad things will happen *ooo*. Probably 90% of the people in my school think being gay is disgusting and they think that gay people are stupid and stupid people are gay... I could be very much wrong though, but that is the impression I get especially when someone screws up and is called "GAAAY!"...

Once one of the substitutes in my school said she had kissed girls etc. and my friend went "Eeew did you hear that? But she's not gay, she has a boyfriend thank god! It's so disgusting!" -_- When will people learn?! Gah.

[karxwp]

queenbee, pretty true...when will people learn? Once in a class we had this argument of "homosexual people: sick or pervert" most said it was a sickness...because the teacher said so...anyway after the topic was brought again now without teacher most are gay friendly :) they just agreed with the teacher because she is a bitch and it was easier to save problems :P Most of them have gay friends so it's not a problem...also I was pretty happy when I saw a couple o boys holding hands :D it seems that the bigotry only last the first semesters of school...

[QueenBee]

My teachers are those who think everyone should be accepted etc etc. And seriously, two of my male teachers are together I swear! They smile at eachother all the time and sometimes they take trips on their bikes together... I swear!!! The whole holding hands-thing, I don't know, alot of guys in my school hug eachother and stuff so yeah. :S But when the gay-topic comes up suddenly guys who hug eachother are disgusting... Yeah well they can kiss me somewhere!

[Mossopp]

Originally posted by queenbee
The whole thing of thinking about ever coming out in my school scares me. No, I'm not gay myself, but if there is someone in my school, and they let others know, bad things will happen *ooo*. Probably 90% of the people in my school think being gay is disgusting and they think that gay people are stupid and stupid people are gay...


I would never have even dreamed of coming out when I was still in school. The abuse I got from people because they just assumed I was gay was bad enough. If they'd known for sure I would have had the sh#t well-and-truly kicked out of me!
Including myself, there were 5 people in my year-group at school who are gay and all of us waited untill we had left school and established ourselves in 'the real world' before we came out. At the time I had guessed that some of them were gay - although one in particular came as a bit of a shock to me - but it was a silent understanding between all of us that we weren't to speak about it, simply for the sake of each other's safety.
My point is that even though I come from a small, retarded little town and went to a school where practically all the students were straight, there were still other people who shared what I was going through. I think that situation made me stronger. I don't feel like I'd still have the same confidence about my sexuality if I had gone to a school that was purely meant for gay teenagers. If anything, I think I would be even more scared for my safety had I gone to an all-gay school cos I'd be waiting for a bomb to go off at any moment, or for some homophobic b#st#rd to run into the classrooms with a gun and mow us all down!
It sounds wierd to be saying this cos my school days were anything but safe, but I really do believe I was better off in the school that I went to.

[QueenBee]

Mossopp, I can understand that. Just like racists attack mosques (where muslims pray... spelling?), homophobics might attack gay schools. I don't know if it has ever happened but it could. I can picture it in my mind already :(

[PowerPuff Grrl]

Originally posted by darje
Admit it: latinos and black people are not in the same kind of segregation gay people are. For god's aches, latin-segregated people are the MOST VIOLENT people I have EVER met (and suddenly I remember that I am latin myself). Black people face, day by day, even less segregation: to hit a black student in a school is like you hit any other student, black or white, penalized with temporal expulsion or something of the matter. But in a shitload of states, to hit a gay student is a rightful way to "straighten" him up. The segregation is NOT the same, not the same case, not the same kind. This is against romantic interests, not racial matters!

What you are seeing now was the end product of years of forced integration during the 50s and 60s. In that time, many African-American students had to endured acts of hatred, but if it wasn't for that we wouldn't be able to have the diversity in schools and and workplaces we have now.

The question is this, really:
Would you rather have segregation now for GLBTs and have them live easy lives in schools and such while living in a world that actively discriminates homosexuals?

Or

Would you rather fight for equal rights while enduring gruelling acts of homophobia for x amount of years but have it end up in the world learning to tolerate homosexuality?

[Charles]

Originally posted by darje
Black people face, day by day, even less segregation: to hit a black student in a school is like you hit any other student, black or white, penalized with temporal expulsion or something of the matter. But in a shitload of states, to hit a gay student is a rightful way to "straighten" him up. The segregation is NOT the same, not the same case, not the same kind. This is against romantic interests, not racial matters!

You're absolutely correct. Blacks face less segregeation today than they did before. Why? Because they, and others have fought for the last 50 years to change society. Change that can only happen on a generational scale (some people can't change, you just have to wait for them to die). Beating a black student in the 1950s wouldn't "straighten him up," but it would put him back in his place, or keep him from ketting thoughts above his station.

For two years in high school, I pretended to date a girl so she could actually date a black student. When her parents finally found out, you best believe all hell broke loose.

The Nazis killed Jews, gays, and gypsies in their camps. Different reasons why (religion, sexuality, and ethnicity respectively), but it was all the same hate.

I sincerely hope equal rights, and treatment in society, for the LGBT community happens sooner than 50 years.

[QueenBee]

So the answer is to wait? The world is growing every day in every single way. There is more understanding than it was before, but there is still alot of hate, and as new things come there comes the hate towards these things aswell. Don't know if you know what I mean, but I always told myself the world is getting worse and worse for every day that passes. We destroy nature and ourselves, as stated in the other thread Bush doesn't believe in gay marriages, now gay people need their own schools so that they won't be beaten up and things like that. The wars make people hate eachother and revenge and so the situation gets worse. I don't know how many people are trying to make the world a better place but so far it doesn't seem to be working. Maybe in a hundered years people will be more understanding, 'cause I sure hope today's youth is being taught good things so that they can change the world step by step... But from what I've seen some kids are learning how to handle guns and weapons while wasting their lives on the streets stealing and smoking. GAH what's wrong with this messed up world?!

[Mossopp]

Originally posted by queenbee
Mossopp, I can understand that. Just like racists attack mosques, homophobics might attack gay schools. I don't know if it has ever happened but it could. :(

I know for a fact that this is what would happen.
Homophobes target gay clubs and bars and even pride parades - why wouldn't they attack an all-gay school?! We'd be like sitting ducks for them!

[Kappa]

GAH!

*I give up*.

[Lux]

i don't give up.
this is repeating history. does anyone see that? segregation of blacks repressed them [they went hand in hand really] and it took much political and civil unrest to unify the standard and equalize everything. equality is an ideal, an impossible medium by which we can never reach, however we can come close on a political level.

in a world, where by now, there is still some prejudice but only by the very nature of humans in general, people should not be segregated. in a gay highschool, where gay bi and transgendered kids will be protected, i ask this, what are they being protected from? from other kids bullying them because they are gay? come on. kids are kids. they bully each other for many reasons, some as common as the kind of clothes they wear and the kind of grades they get. the bigger picture is: orientation, and another issue, because it is not a choice. no one chooses to be gay or straight. its biological/emotional. putting gay/transgendered kids in a school provides safety for them temporarily but this safety net is but a temporary euphoria, maybe. they are amongst people like them and surrounded by educators who understand. it's "safe" with minimal possibility of threats.

within the school is one side, what about the flip? they can't be protected from other kids. like i said, kids bully each other no matter what. also, putting gays together emphasizes the fact that they ARE gays. again, repeating history. grouping similar race/orientations puts more pressure to repress than to learn about and learn from. and since they are gay, being with different people is a logical way of mutual learning. [this having already been said by many] although that comes with sticks and stones, learning has always be a difficult process.

putting kids together in a school, protects them yes, but from non straight forces. but from each other? i highly doubt. and the world after this "gay" school? as in college? where the majority amount of people aren't gay anyway. then off to the real world, where, oh yes, 90% of ppl are straight. what then? gay communities? gay cities? gay countries? it can go on...i'm very tired..

my highschool along with most, was not gay oriented. i was figuring things out and afraid to talk about it...then college came along and i found others as i am, BENT, and it was much easier. we live in a primarily straight world and to segregate children in efforts to protect them seems backwards in efforts to integrate the masses, create more diversity and result in much openness.




my 4 cents

Lux.

[karxwp]

Lux, your four cents value a thousand dollars ;) you think as me...it's like oookay kids are gonna be protected but what's going to happen when they leave their school? the will see the real world no longer under the rose colored glasses...and we know the world is cruel and giving a gay hig school is just a temporal safety....the solution to this is to mix people to make straights understand that gays are the same as them and that's not gonna happen if they are like in a special school....

[Kappa]

I give up because I am tired of trying to stand for my point and people shooting my opinion down in flames. I feel VERY irritated because what I have said has seemingly been dismissed as segregation.

Well, you know what?! I have not suffered that f*cking segregation you all talk about, but as a gay kid who spent the probably worst years of her motherfrigging life in junior high, abuse, prodding, bad grades, I would have given EVERYTHING to be protected in that way. It is NOT a way of segregating gay kids: schools, straight or gay, are supposed to prepare teenagers for the next stage. What, do you guys think they'll go out of school made a bunch of wussies?Aw dear lord, that's such a ridiculous notion. If they have a chance to graduate with good grades, there will be a good chance too that he knows what goes around him, and that those years in which he was able to study in tranquility were a honestly good way of preparing for an adult cruel world.

Gay teenagers have it hard, being in a gay school or not, because whatever their sexuality might be, to be a teenager sucks. But in a gay school, they would probably also have the benefit of being able to pride themselves upon what they are and not have to hide about it. Because, surprise surprise, this girl can feel proud of being a cheerleader, this boy may feel proud of being the best in his club: but the gay boy can't be proud of being himself or having his boyfriend pick him up from school because he might be insulted/get beaten/be killed/be stripped of his pride.

I'm giving up because hell. I'm just a gay teenager.

[karxwp]

Well excuse us for exteriorizing our opinions...forgive me for being a happy teenager that had no beatings/bulling/insultings.... heeey wait a minute I had insults, in primary and some in secondary and some in high school...but nothing to be worried becuase those insults were said by jerks... and because of my mighty power of denial....

[Kappa]

Who said it was you? You were never insulted because of your sexuality, Karla, don't come up with that. I don't want to profundize in the theme... but anyway.

I said I give up. You're free to talk about how a gay school is such a bad idea. Who cares anymore.

[karxwp]

well you don't know everything about me so don't say what happened or what did not...although I don't have a banner in my forehead that says "look at me I'm bisexual" I was insulted, mostly in primary... you must know that private school kids can be mean but I don't wanna share old and burried traumas..

In secondary and high school there were jokes to tease, but that evil teasing... the one to see if you fall...but I never put them any atention...because 1) denial (and I was until 17-18 but we all know what we are subconsciously) 2) kids are jerks.

And why do you get pissed? you may think its a good idea a gay school but also many people disagree...this is a discussion, to share points of views not a battle...

[Kappa]

I'm just sick of trying to make my point. This boy and that girl, both of them gay and assisting to a good "normal" school: do they have to be killed? Stripped off their pride? Do they have to be martyrs to a cause that will take a century or hopefully a bit less to start working? I think this is a good idea while queer people with more politic power work for their own to receive rights and to be legally protected: that's why it's a good thing on short term.

But once again, I repeat that I give up... it's worthless to continue discussing this.

[karxwp]

you defend your POV and I defend mine that's all, but you want us to agree with you in everything... but hello! this is a discussion if we all agreed it would be pointless to have a forum to discuss and share ideas.

To have a gay school for me is extreme, what are gay, lesbian, bisexual and trangendered people fighting for?

Not for tolerance but for acceptance (or at least I wanna think that) to be treated normal because we are not freaks we are not unnatural things... but we won't get that acceptance if we insist in pointing out our differences, what do you think some US schools have Straight-Gay alliance groups? because they want to promote the idea that we are the same it doesn't matter if you are X person or Y person.

For me a Gay High school is an easy way from this struggle is like exiling myself, to be protected, but we do not need to change the point of view of gay teachers but the people outside the school, the homophobes and biased people that think we are "sinful, perverts, sick people".

A good idea in short term? define short 5 years? 10 years? Rome wasn't made in one day...bias and close minded people can't be changed so fast...it's a long run, take for example the black people how much time they have struggled (in the us) and still you don't see a black president...

maybe I'm rambling (quite understandable being 3:00 am) but at least freddie agrees with me and thanks for helping me in the brainstorming and put all the ideas together :D

Quoting Freddie:
"Isn't having a gay high school just an escape from all the strugles gay have put up with over the centuries? It's like trivializing all that gay people went trough in time"

[Ningyo]

I'm not sure about what to say. More exactly, not sure of how to explain my negative vote...

So, a school for gay teens? Maybe it's great for those who've been bullied, beaten, raped and so on and so forth... But attending a school with other teenagers of similar romantic interests doesn't exclude the possibility of suffering the same kind of abuse. Bullies and abuses come in all ages, colours, sizes, backgrounds, nationalities and sexualities; don't they?

Darje has a point when she talks about a safer environment and students worrying about school stuff instead of watching their backs; it's valid and it's true. Teenage years are hard per se, problems are always big and depressions are of the worst kind; I remember all that.

Anyway, this gay school strikes me more like a political move rather than a real willingness to solve violence, segregation, intolerance and such. *shrugs* Perhaps I'm being too paranoid and untrusting again...

There's also another aspect to consider. Let's suppose everything's peachy at school. Going there won't make students a target for outsiders? Like, when in the neighbourhood people get to know where this kid studies, can we be sure they won't attack him/her in some way? Or segregate? Or harass? All because of a school? *shakes head*

So, let's think that neighbours say/do nothing. World's full of aggressive, crazy, bigoted and/or biased people; eventually, violence will reach these gay kids, be it for their sexual orientation or not.

According to me, having this gay school achieves so little when it comes to prevention of crimes and violence; neither it leads society into accepting homosexuals. And as someone mentioned before, if these teens get a better education, there'll be straight ones wanting to attend this school... And we'll be back at stage one, just inverted: gay kids bashing straight ones.

Oh well, those are just my ideas.

- SK.

[Just for the record: I'm not straight.]

[rylettia]

It is NOT a way of segregating gay kids: schools, straight or gay, are supposed to prepare teenagers for the next stage. What, do you guys think they'll go out of school made a bunch of wussies?Aw dear lord, that's such a ridiculous notion. If they have a chance to graduate with good grades, there will be a good chance too that he knows what goes around him, and that those years in which he was able to study in tranquility were a honestly good way of preparing for an adult cruel world.

I agree. Is a kid going to be prepared for the world having being abused and taught to be ashamed or hide his/her sexuality or going to a school where there is some shelter? People tend to bond when they can empathize with each other, which unfortunately requires they have suffered the same things. If the school were to attract negative attention, at least there'd be understanding peers. Though that is cold, cruel comfort. :dead: In the end, a teenager who has confidence from some feeling of acceptance (call it naive) is more valuable to society than a punch-drunk, withdrawn kid who is already damn sick of the "real" world and its cruelty.

A group of gay/bi kids wanting to go to a school where they can be proud of their sexuality and not feel like a sexual minority is backwards? I guess I just don't want to believe that some teenagers wanting their corner of the world is selfish...

[parrish122]

Ok, everybody take a deep breath and try to calm down. All right?

There's two different ways of arguing this topic.

Emotional and mental.

If you've been through beatings at school, like Darje, me, and lord alone knows how many others...it's hard to look at this subject with a cool head.

If you *haven't* been through this, it's difficult to really know the underlying emotions.

If you are looking at it from the emotional point of view, you are most likely going to want the short term solution. You want the pain to stop *now*.

And if you aren't looking at it emotionally, you are more likely going to pick what you feel is the long term solution.

There is nothing wrong with either choice. *Both* sides want the best. *Both* sides want gay teens to feel safe. We all want the same thing, we only disagree on how that can best be done.

Maybe we can all try to remember that, before this thread blows up and out of control, eh?

Parrish

[QueenBee]

It COULD work out. People who would attend gay schools know they are gay (duh) and have probably been through problems like that -beatings, teasing, all that (if they are out of the closet). So basically, they already know what real life is like and they can feel safe for a couple of years and get themselves a good education! :)

Young kids, for example 1st grade wouldn't know how cruel people can be if they have never been through it... Sure, they can hear it here and there but you can't know exactly if you haven't been through it yourself (or at least thats the impression I get). So they wouldnt be prepared.... but c'mon, how many first graders know that they are gay? Sorry if there is anyone here who fond out that they were gay in first grade or before, but most kids find out about themselves later in puberty.

So basically, a temporary solution, and sure, that's fine. When school is done I don't think it will be the same. Adults don't usually tease others and beat them like in school. They're more mature, of course, and gay people have a chance.

The thing that worries me though is what homophobics will do. People will know which schools are gay or not and so homophobics will attack them, and that safe enviorment can turn into something horrible.

And seriously I wouldn't want anyone to be killed in school... It happens to gay people already but think of how it will be when there is a whole school packed with "disgusting perverts" :(

Uh.

[ell]

As a gay teen I would love to go to this high school I mean at first it seems like a dream come true no discrimination, others in your situation to talk to and the possibility off meeting someone and falling in love would be a thousand times easier with more selection then in a normal high school but I still think it isn't a good idea.

Sure It would be fun to go to but I really don't think the situations so bad in the US that we need a school that segregates us and untimitly brings the LGBT community back a few steps in the search for acceptance. I live in Massachussetts our state touches New York and the atmosphare is not that bad here...My school has an openly gay theatre teacher and he is greatly respected sure their are those that dislike him and think he's gross but they are the minority. There's an openly gay guy that brings his boyfriend to school dances and dosn't recive any sh*t for it. Sure theirs homophobia (espesilly among those who imitate rappers) gay and faggot are commenly used as derogitary terms..one time someone thought I was massageing my friend's foot and was like "ewww". I know that in some schools in MA the atmosphares even better someone from my school said that at her old school it was "practically cooler to be bi then straight."

Another thought, do ststistics that say hate crimes against homosexals are up really reflect more hate for homosexuals, maybe not. Statistics can be misleading you can't just take in to account the numbers you have to take into account things that could effect these statistics such as an increase in the amout off people that are out and proud. Yes the amout off crimes has gone up but the amout off murders has gone down. According to a FBI report in the year 2001 only one person was murdered because of sexual oriantaion bias and one person was raped. In 1998 four people were murdered.

In the south blacks would have never gained acceptance if they hadn't fought for thier rights. After the brown vs. board off education ruling they continued excersising thier right to go back to the all white schools even when they were beaten brutaly for it. Blacks took the front seats on buses and were lynched(killed) for it but continued taking this stand becuse if they didn't we would never have gained the racially accepting socity we have today in america.

I am not saying its not still huge problem its just that segregation is not the awnser...maybe temporarily it would be in some countrys (such as Mexico darje) but I can't imagin someone whose suposed to be as politically corect as a teacher giving all F's to a student for being gay in northern USA were this school is located.

[Kappa]

ell, that is because political correctness is a northamerican concept: such thing as to be politically correct is a nonexistant thing here.

[Khartoun2004]

Ok new thought.

This gay school in New York represents progress. Even if some of you don't think it's a godd idea, it's still progress which makes it on some levels a good thing. Also the timing of this school couldn't be more perfect. Think about the rest of the progress that's going on in this country. The supreme court just passed that resolution that we can't be arrested for engaging in consenting sexual acts and that its our private lives, blah blah blah. Then there's the marriage lawsuit in Massachusetts, which we're still waiting for the decision on. All of these events are great and wonderful. They are all making the dream of a tolarent climate towards the LGBT community. That is our ultimate goal.

However there are also forces in the uS that are trying to ruin and destroy our advances and triumphants. Mainly the conservative camp with the president as head jack-ass. Despite all of the LGBT communities efforts a small step like a gay high school could easily be taken away and our movement set back 10 years. The mere fact that this school is publicly funded is an amazing feat concidering the fact that NY is controlled by Republicans.

So my question now is what would be a better solution? What other options are there?