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coolasfcuk
22-04-2007, 05:12
some happy article i randomply came upon while checking yahoo mail

Transgender student runs for prom king

FRESNO, Calif. - When school officials announce the name of the Fresno High School prom king on Saturday, Cinthia Covarrubias will be wearing a tuxedo just like the six boys vying for the honor. Administrators agreed to reverse a district protocol this week that limited males to compete for the title after Covarrubias was nominated by her classmates.

"I would never have run for anything if I had to wear a dress," said Covarrubias, who considers herself transgender, an umbrella term that covers all people whose outward appearance and internal identity don't match their gender at birth.

Gay youth advocates called it a landmark victory for campus gender expression and said they believe it's the first time in the U.S. that an openly transgender student has run for prom royalty.

"We are growing as a society to accept much more diversity in gender expression, and that's a positive thing," said Carolyn Laub, director of the Gay-Straight Alliance Network.

Covarrubias, who wears black-and-white Vans, baggy shorts and close-cropped brown hair, sometimes identifies herself as Tony. Her date, a close female friend, plans to wear a black dress and red corsage to the prom at an outdoor reception hall surrounded by man-made waterfalls.

On Wednesday, officials at the school of 2,700 students shifted course, saying the district's lawyers had recommended adding Covarrubias' name to the ballot to comply with a 2000 state law protecting students' ability to express their gender identity on campus.

"We always want to do the right thing by our students," Vice Principal Sheila Uriarte said. "This is why we came to this decision."

Leanne Reyes, 16, said Covarrubias had her vote.

"It's not like the stereotype where the king has to be a jock and he's there with the cheerleaders anymore," said Reyes, a senior. "We live in a generation now where dudes are chicks and chicks are dudes."

Still, some students criticized the decision to put Covarrubias on the ballot.

"I like lesbians, but they shouldn't be allowed to run for king," said senior Erich Logan, 18, as he stood outside the stately high school building.

A native of Jalisco, Mexico, Covarrubias said she has bucked rigid expectations of how a girl in her culture should behave. Explaining the meaning of terms like "queer" and "transgender" to her parents and eight siblings has at times been painful, she said.

"My freshman year I just started feeling different," she said. "When I decided to change to be like this, all of a sudden I said, 'Wow, I feel OK. I feel like finally I'm being me.'"

She has no current plans, however, to permanently alter her gender through hormones or surgery.

Tiffani Sanchez, a science teacher who advises the school's Gay-Straight Alliance, said the decision would foster understanding of the broad spectrum of gender identities.

"Cinthia is still really learning who she is," she said. "We want her to know that there's a safe space for her here and we support her."

Covarrubias is giddily looking forward to the prom, but acknowledged being a little nervous.

"I'm happy I actually made a difference about changing the law and the policy so you can run for your choice," Covarrubias said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070421/ap_on_re_us/transgender_prom_king

that senior, Erich Logan, what a fucker.... of course he likes lesbians, the ones that are in the porn movies, right because, he should know that Cinthia identifies as a HE and not as a lesbian....but over all, good news... and not to mention in Fresno of all pplaces, fresno is pretty ... well... conservative, i mean it is in the VALLEY!

Amy_Lee_Rocks
22-04-2007, 05:29
What a fucker...
He's just mad cause he dont get any from straight girls or lesbos

Talyubittu
22-04-2007, 08:39
Well, I'm happy "he" has decided who he is however...

"I like lesbians, but they shouldn't be allowed to run for king," said senior Erich Logan, 18, as he stood outside the stately high school building.

I believe he said it correctly. Apparently this person has not had gender re-assignment. And therefore, is still female. Therefore, she should not be allowed to run.

coolasfcuk
22-04-2007, 08:52
Well, I'm happy "he" has decided who he is however...



I believe he said it correctly. Apparently this person has not had gender re-assignment. And therefore, is still female. Therefore, she should not be allowed to run.

dude.... i will not even respond to this... you are gonna anger a lot other people around here with this, im gonna let them shred you to pieces... but those " " and the word he inside of them.... clearly it hasnt reached "diverse" SD yet that LESBIANS arent TRANSGENDER, have you noticed that a lot of us call eachother QUEER, because the rainbow is so diverse..... oh wait, this High School isnt in SD, thats right, it is on the COAST in CA, where people generally SEE the difference between Lesbians and Transgender people... of course there are the few rotten apples like that guy you quoted, but you know...

Talyubittu
22-04-2007, 09:38
dude.... i will not even respond to this... you are gonna anger a lot other people around here with this, im gonna let them shred you to pieces... but those " " and the word he inside of them.... clearly it hasnt reached "diverse" SD yet that LESBIANS arent TRANSGENDER, have you noticed that a lot of us call eachother QUEER, because the rainbow is so diverse..... oh wait, this High School isnt in SD, thats right, it is on the COAST in CA, where people generally SEE the difference between Lesbians and Transgender people... of course there are the few rotten apples like that guy you quoted, but you know...


What are you screaming at me for? I am agreeing with you.

I did not say that Lesbians are Transgender! I know what a tranny is thank you! I said - Unless this girl gets a penis, she shouldn't be allowed to run for prom KING. I don't care if she is a man trapped in a womans body, until she has that body, she should have to follow the rules set in place for a competition like that, otherwise it's unfair!

As far as angering people, who cares, it's my oppinion. If they cannot respect that, I promise I won't lose any sleep at night.


And please stop pointing out where I live in every single post you reply to me in. Believe it or not, I do go outside of my home, and sometimes I even drive around! (I know, crazy!) I'm well aware of where I live. And for that matter, if I forget, I can look at my user panel which specifically states my location as well. So please, knock it off with the fact that the midwest is a giant boil on your egotistical forum attitude ass, because franky, you are annoying me. I'm not trying to be rude to you, but as you cannot seem to convey a message on your behalf in any way BUT being rude, I guess I'm going to stop treating you nicely. Now please, have some respect for someone elses view point, and respect for another person in general. I'm not going out of my way to be rude to you, so please don't do it to me. Thank you :)

Khartoun2004
22-04-2007, 11:18
What are you screaming at me for? I am agreeing with you.

I did not say that Lesbians are Transgender! I know what a tranny is thank you! I said - Unless this girl gets a penis, she shouldn't be allowed to run for prom KING. I don't care if she is a man trapped in a womans body, until she has that body, she should have to follow the rules set in place for a competition like that, otherwise it's unfair!

First of all... as the resident Trans guy... Fuck you! Do not use that word in reference to any Transgender person, it's insulting on par with Faggot actually. Get your Midwestern head out of your ass and get an education in Queer culture before you open your mouth boy.

And actually not allow a Male idenified trans person from running for Prom King is a violation of California State Anti-Discrimination and Hate Crime laws which protect a persons right to Gender Identity and Expression... Then Again seeing as you're from SD you'd know nothing about that since your state refuses to pass such statues. A Human Being does not need a penis to be a man. In fact genitals are a very SMALL part of the equation. Go do some research and try not being so narrow minded... then maybe Cools and myself won't have to ripe you a new asshole every other day.

Cools...thanks

the unforgiven
22-04-2007, 12:36
Unless this girl gets a penis, she shouldn't be allowed to run for prom KING
beware the strap on force! lol
seriously, this is bullshit!!!
of course he's allowed to run for the prom king! it's not like the end of the world, it's just prom and fun, right?
it's pretty cool that the administration doesn't want to kick him out just because he's a woman in a physical way
penis or not, the important part is that all this prom stuff helps him to define himself
it must be pretty difficult to go through this and I find the administration very respectful about that
btw, holly cows! that senior guy is a f*ckin tw*t

spyretto
22-04-2007, 14:06
Can I be her prom queen? If there's a monetary reward of course :p

haku
22-04-2007, 15:31
Well, i've already mentioned it, but maybe we should have four official genders: male with male genitals, male with female genitals, female with male genitals, and female with female genitals. Everybody would be happy and it would make things less black and white.

coolasfcuk
22-04-2007, 18:43
What are you screaming at me for? I am agreeing with you.
ha!

Khartoun2004, i thought youd like the article :) ... also, i am not responding to Talybittu, because as i said and predicted in my other post, other people are! LoL
I just wanted to add as a general comment that gender and sexual identities are so diverse, it isnt even as easy as Trasns Guy or FTM necessarilly means a woman that transitions to a man and is attracted to girls, as most people think - look at our own Khartoun2004, as far as i know he falls in the FTM and is attracted to guys... so actually, would you also identify as a gay boy, K?

what would be even more awsome is if he wins the prom king.. .and i hope the prom queen is some homophob cheerleader :lol:

QueenBee
22-04-2007, 19:14
I thought Kartoon is attracted to girls? :confused: At least I remember something about his girlfriend... or something. (hah, I am totally not confused at all obviously...)

But honestly, I don't understand why you'd want to prove something through some lame school prom.

And boo at that guy who says he likes lesbians but they shouldn't run for prom king, he's like many of the a-holes out there, unfortunately. :bum:

Talyubittu
22-04-2007, 21:07
Khartoun - I was not meaning to offend anyone. I'd also like to say that I"m glad you're on your way to you're desired gender. I'm not prejudice, I just spent an entire day without talking, passing out cards to show acceptance for GBLT people. I am all for equality. But that still does not change my oppinion on this matter.

What legislation and science defines as "Gender" are completely different. Government says that your gender is what is also known as your "Gender Identity", meaning whatever you feel that you are sex wise. But it also can be interpreted as what other people percieve your gender as.

Your gender - whether people like it or not. Are based upon your chemical makeup, and you cannot change that.

In science, you are female if you have female genitalia and two X chromosomes.

You are male if you have male genitalia and one X and one Y chromosome.

I do not care what society lables anybody. The fact of the matter is, science determines your sex, not your local government. This does not mean that I don't agree with transgendered people, because I feel it's a great step towards GBLT acceptance to take the step forward and change your sex for your own desired reason. But when it comes down to it, science takes precedence over legislation that is one of the biggest disputes in the trangender world.

And for that matter, I'd like to point out that this article is a bit derogatory if you found the term "Tranny" offensive. According to you a persons gender is whatever gender they think they are correct? So then, wouldn't it be discriminatory to refer to that said person as anynthing but Male or Female? Since technically being "transgeder" dosen't exist? After all, it's just a state to where you believe you are the opposite sex, so why have the term at all? Why not just call yourself a male if you are a female? And female if you are a male?

- Because it's not that simple. And science proves that.

__________________________

I'm sorry if I've offended you, but these are my view on the matter, and I do not think that a woman should be able to run for prom king. Does this mean if she thought she were a dog she'd be able to lick her vagina in public and pee on sidewalks? No, do you see my point?

Society can tell you what you want to belive, and the government can tell you what doors they are opening, but the fact of the matter is, science is the only field that actually counts for something.


and i hope the prom queen is some homophob cheerleader

Yes, becuase that would acomplish so much for the GBLT community. :rolleyes:

coolasfcuk
22-04-2007, 21:37
i like quoting your posts so that they stay in history longer, in case you decide to change them...

Khartoun - I was not meaning to offend anyone. I'd also like to say that I"m glad you're on your way to you're desired gender. I'm not prejudice, I just spent an entire day without talking, passing out cards to show acceptance for GBLT people. I am all for equality. But that still does not change my oppinion on this matter.

What legislation and science defines as "Gender" are completely different. Government says that your gender is what is also known as your "Gender Identity", meaning whatever you feel that you are sex wise. But it also can be interpreted as what other people percieve your gender as.

Your gender - whether people like it or not. Are based upon your chemical makeup, and you cannot change that.

In science, you are female if you have female genitalia and two X chromosomes.

You are male if you have male genitalia and one X and one Y chromosome.

I do not care what society lables anybody. The fact of the matter is, science determines your sex, not your local government. This does not mean that I don't agree with transgendered people, because I feel it's a great step towards GBLT acceptance to take the step forward and change your sex for your own desired reason. But when it comes down to it, science takes precedence over legislation that is one of the biggest disputes in the trangender world.

And for that matter, I'd like to point out that this article is a bit derogatory if you found the term "Tranny" offensive. According to you a persons gender is whatever gender they think they are correct? So then, wouldn't it be discriminatory to refer to that said person as anynthing but Male or Female? Since technically being "transgeder" dosen't exist? After all, it's just a state to where you believe you are the opposite sex, so why have the term at all? Why not just call yourself a male if you are a female? And female if you are a male?

- Because it's not that simple. And science proves that.

__________________________

I'm sorry if I've offended you, but these are my view on the matter, and I do not think that a woman should be able to run for prom king. Does this mean if she thought she were a dog she'd be able to lick her vagina in public and pee on sidewalks? No, do you see my point?

Society can tell you what you want to belive, and the government can tell you what doors they are opening, but the fact of the matter is, science is the only field that actually counts for something.



Yes, becuase that would acomplish so much for the GBLT community. :rolleyes:

dudeeeeee, stop digging your grave.... I cannot hold my responses, so couple of fast ones

that GBLT community you are refering to, im assuming you mean the LGBT, if so, did you know there are OTHER types of queer people who are trying to expand those four letters... and one example of such other queers, which arent included in the LGBT and who hit you in the head with a big stone after your "biology and chemistry" preaching up there: Intersexuals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex ... what are you gonna call them, eh? freaks?!? I mean, should they be a male or a female... god, their chemisty is fucked up, so what do you think of them? i wonder......

Sunrider
22-04-2007, 21:48
I do not think that a woman should be able to run for prom king. Does this mean if she thought she were a dog she'd be able to lick her vagina in public and pee on sidewalks?

How does being a non-gender-reassigned transgender person equal thinking you are a dog, though. This is what I'm wondering. A transgender person IS a person of a different sex than the body they were born in. If a girl thinks she's a dog, that doesn't make her one, does it?

Transgender people don't think, they are. The fact that this particular guy made the decision not to have surgery doesn't change anything about his true gender, IMHO. :)

Talyubittu
22-04-2007, 21:48
i like quoting your posts so that they stay in history longer, in case you decide to change them...



dudeeeeee, stop digging your grave.... I cannot hold my responses, so couple of fast ones

that GBLT community you are refering to, im assuming you mean the LGBT, if so, did you know there are OTHER types of queer people who are trying to expand those four letters... and one example of such other queers, which arent included in the LGBT and who hit you in the head with a big stone after your "biology and chemistry" preaching up there: Intersexuals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex ... what are you gonna call them, eh? freaks?!? I mean, should they be a male or a female... god, their chemisty is fucked up, so what do you think of them? i wonder......

What's your point? I didn't say Intersexuals did not exist in my previous posts, I didn't make any reference to them. I'm well aware of their existance. This is an entirely different case, these people had no control over the way their chromosomes and chemistry formed. I'm not saying that transgender people do have control over it, I'm just saying that you will forever have traits of the sex that you were a birth. Nothing can change that. An intersexual person is neither gender, they have traits of both but are not actually belonging to either sex. Many of them have it corrected to one sex if I'm not mistaken?

I've already explained to you that I do not have anything against anyone. So please stop trying to make it look like I do.

the unforgiven
22-04-2007, 21:49
Talyubittu, no offence but the chromosomes stuff is not always true
if you wanna think like a "scientist", you should always think about exceptions (plus, it's important to pass your exams at uni lol)

btw, sciences are one thing, being human and use your brain is a different one

Does this mean if she thought she were a dog she'd be able to lick her vagina in public and pee on sidewalks? No, do you see my point?
:done: I guess if someone is able to lick her own vagina she should go to a circus (the wonderful porn circus) and not attend a prom king election
and no ... I don't see your point

Talyubittu
22-04-2007, 21:52
How does being a non-gender-reassigned transgender person equal thinking you are a dog, though. This is what I'm wondering. A transgender person IS a person of a different sex than the body they were born in. If a girl thinks she's a dog, that doesn't make her one, does it?

Transgender people don't think, they are.

Because. Each person is thinking something that their chemical makeup says they are not.

A transgendered person IS a person of a dfferent sex than the the body they were born it?

How do you figure that? A person IS what their body is. Their mind says otherwise.

So why can't someone say they are a dog in a persons body? They don't look like a dog, they don't act like a dog. But then again, a transgedered person dosen't naturally look like the sex they're wanting to be.

If a girl thinks she's a dog, that doesn't make her one, does it?
So then why does a girl thinking she's a man make her one in terms of what this article is about?

Talyubittu
22-04-2007, 21:53
Talyubittu, no offence but the chromosomes stuff is not always true
if you wanna think like a "scientist", you should always think about exceptions (plus, it's important to pass your exams at uni lol)
and no ... I don't see your point


Chromosomes are what they are. Please tell me an instance where chromosomes are "not true". I don't even understand what you mean by that statement.

the unforgiven
22-04-2007, 21:57
Talyubittu, are you f*ckin graduated? tell me? please
cuz I'm studying biology and I was in med school for 2 f*ckin years!
you're really pissing me off
XXY XXX XO etc etc that's what I talk about! you f*ckin moron! I'm not a native english speaker! (I mean I can't explain it to you correctly ... except if you're fluent in french) but please ... shut up on this one
cuz 1/20 000 people who have XY can have a female phenotype
so please! shut the f*ck up!

edit : ok my post is borderline and I'm not telling you that I know everything about chromosomes and sciences, but as a science student it's pissing me off when you wanna talk about something and you don't have the basics
*sorry*

Talyubittu
22-04-2007, 22:02
Talyubittu, are you fuckin graduated? tell me? please
cuz I'm studying biology and I was in med school for 2 fuckin years!
you're really pissing me off
XXY XXX XO etc etc that's what I talk about! you fuckin moron! I'm not a native english speaker! (I mean I can't explain it to you correctly ... except if you're fluent in french) but please ... shut up on this one
cuz 1/20 000 people who have XY can have a female phenotype
so please! shut the fuck up!

Perhaps you should spend more time learning how to talk about biology in English than learning how to cuss people out then?

- It is not my fault that you cannot explain it, so please don't scream at me.

freddie
22-04-2007, 22:42
Perhaps you should spend more time learning how to talk about biology in English than learning how to cuss people out then?

- It is not my fault that you cannot explain it, so please don't scream at me.

I think she explained it rather coherently, don't you think? There are exceptions to the xy=male, xx=female fenotype rule.

Anyway... that's not even the point. Point being... who are we to represent some moral authority on the subject of gender? You are what you feel you are, I'd say. And this is a social event, don't forget not a competitive sport (I'd have reservations as well if a girl who was a fuy once tried to compete at the Olympics... there ARE certain male traits remaining which could possibly enhance the athletic performance, but do those traits really matter in everyday life?). In a social environment she feels like a guy. She wants her environment to accept her as a guy, so... why not just let her be a guy then?

Edit: Play nice, kids. No insulting plzthnx

Kyro
22-04-2007, 23:05
XXY XXX XO etc etc that's what I talk about! you f*ckin moron! I'm not a native english speaker! (I mean I can't explain it to you correctly ... except if you're fluent in french)
1/20 000 people who have XY can have a female phenotype
I think these are explained quite well here (http://anthro.palomar.edu/abnormal/abnormal_5.htm) and here (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/dispomim.cgi?id=306100) :)


I really don't see why there should be any problem with a trans guy running for prom king. I strongly believe that if he identifies as male he should be accepted as such and allowed to do anything that any biological male would be able to do without question. As freddie mentioned, the only time when something like this should possibly be an issue is where they would have an unfair advantage in a serious competition.

Amy_Lee_Rocks
22-04-2007, 23:07
Isnt there a law in California saying that whatever gender you
consider urself is the gender you are?
My french teacher was telling us that
last year..I thought it was kinda kool..but makes me
wonder if some guys consider themselves girls just to
go into the girls restroom and get some eye loving girls.

Talyubittu
22-04-2007, 23:12
Isnt there a law in California saying that whatever gender you
consider urself is the gender you are?
My french teacher was telling us that
last year..I thought it was kinda kool..but makes me
wonder if some guys consider themselves girls just to
go into the girls restroom and get some eye loving girls.

Yes, gender identity laws.

But you are not allowed to just call yourself a girl and walk into a female restroom if you want to. You have to actually live the lifestyle of the said gender, otherwise you can get into serious trouble. But yes, a male who gender identifies as a female can use a female restroom.

- I guess looking at this from a more humanitarian perspective. I can see why all the negativity is being directed at my posts. I suppose I was a little cruel it what I was saying, but it's honestly how I feel. I'm sorry that it's a different opinion than most of you have, but I cannot help the way I think towards this matter, no more than this girl can help wanting to be a man. It's just a mindset that I have, and I am honestly not trying to be a jerk to anyone. I apologize if I upset you. Unforgiven and I talked this out in a PM and we're ok now, I hope no hard feelings progress from this from anyone. :-/

chaz
22-04-2007, 23:28
Gosh, u take it sooooo far, just becaus she is phisically female she is not allowed to run for king? C´mon, its just the prom, nothing complicated, she should be allowed, and thats it.
Besides, juts becase someone hasnt got the genital sex change, doesnt mean they are still completely female still, and, just because their sexual orentation doesnt match their phisicall apperance or genetic sex, but it does math their "mind sex", makes them "gay/lesbian"
the unforgiven, i got u, Im a med student myself, and I hate when ppl talk without any base
Anyways, this is juts my opinion, argueing its not gonna change someones opinion.

QueenBee
23-04-2007, 00:50
I think some people are being a bit harsh here. I can't understand why we should feel the need to rip Talyubittu into pieces just because he doesn't think girls should run for prom king. Honestly you guys, we're supposed to be an open-minded group here but when someone mentions something that doesn't fit into our happy little place, everyone goes nuts! :p

Talyubittu
23-04-2007, 01:41
Thank you Queenie.

Chaz - it's ok for someone form an opinion about something without having gone through medical school. Belive it or not, I have some knowledge of genetics and therefore am allowed to state my own opinion based on that. If you have knolwedge that goes higher than mine, please contribute. But don't snag at someone just because you have a year or so of studying in medicine and they don't.

Khartoun2004
23-04-2007, 03:54
Queenie and Cools techniquely you are both right. I'm Bisexual :lol:

The Unforgiven is actually right on the mark. A person's chromosomal sex (xx, xy, xxy, ect.) does not necessarily translate into xx=female or xy=male. And to further the point, there is actually scientific evidence that in Transsexuals there is a difference between the sex of their brain and the sex of their genitals. I have the lovely Ducth to thank for that bit of research, they did a study of MtF's and found that their brains were identical to those of biological females and the same goes for FtMs.

Gender is not dependent on biologicalo sex anyway Talyubittu, the actual definitition of gender (lifted directly from all of my Psychology books) is a persons emotional, cultural and cognitive understanding of whether they are male or female. It has nothing to with biology. Sex however has everything to with biology. Gender and sex do not always match.

In terms of sex, you actually have two; Chromosomal Sex and Endocinological sex. The latter deals with your hormone levels. Are your levels of Estrogen and Testosterone (everyone has both) in the male range (more T than E) or in the female range (more E than T)? It's actually quite easily change through IntraMuscular injections of the opposite sex's main hormore. Once you change the body's chemistry there is no clear difference between a trans person and a non-transperson, except for their genitalia which is a very small part of the equation as I said before.

volk1
23-04-2007, 04:38
I think she should be allowed to run as prom king. I mean...it's prom...it's only high school. And...she was NOMINATED as prom king. So if a certain percentage of the student body would like to see her as their prom king, let it happen. The world will not end.

However, I do agree with Talyubittu that she is still a female. Maybe she identifies as being male, but...biologically she is female. Maybe not psychologically, but def. biologically. Her body is that of a female and will remain as such unless she gets some sort of procedure done to change all of her internal and external organs to those of a male. What she feels she is has no jurisdiction over what nature has made her (again, excluding the psychological aspect). For example, I truly feel in my heart of hearts that I am utterly and completely awesome...now, that doesn't necessarily mean I am, right? Because, biologically, I could just be a real douche-bag and have over-confidence issues. lol, just kidding, bad example I know. But in all seriousness, don't tear me apart for this, it's just my opinion, so you kids can cool your jets! :coctail:

Aside from all this, I still feel she is completely in her rights to run and win the title of prom king.

Amy_Lee_Rocks
23-04-2007, 04:40
I truly feel in my heart of hearts that I am utterly and completely awesome...now, that doesn't necessarily mean I am, right? Because, biologically, I could just be a real douche-bag and have over-confidence issues. lol, just kidding, bad example I know



LMFAO!!!

chaz
23-04-2007, 04:46
Thank you Queenie.

Chaz - it's ok for someone form an opinion about something without having gone through medical school. Belive it or not, I have some knowledge of genetics and therefore am allowed to state my own opinion based on that. If you have knolwedge that goes higher than mine, please contribute. But don't snag at someone just because you have a year or so of studying in medicine and they don't.

I should ve placed what I said ato the unforgiven in off topic hahaha, i wasnt refering to you, I was thinking or sayin it, cuz here, in my country, there are lots and lots of rumors regarding the use of medical substances or remedies ( things like using hair to ease the redness in the eyes pr stuff like that) xD

I dont think that you are wrong, we just have differet opinions about it, I think girls running for prom king its nothing important, u think that should not happen, and i was just saying that a person who thinks that their geder its not what their body or genetics tell them, but hasnnt gone trough a sex change operation, and their sexual orientation is not the one that matches their genes, meand they are gaylesbian, they r just like that cuz they are not in the "right" gender (independiently if u think thats ok or not)

Anyway, I think Khartoun2004 said it ALOT better than I

coolasfcuk
23-04-2007, 06:05
: puke :

dradeel
23-04-2007, 15:18
I see no problem in her running as a prom king. I mean, she might look hotter than all the guys... It's possible. It's just about looking good, and in what style you're dressing. Noone can see a penis or a vagina through the cloths anyways, assuming noone is having a boner (and if you're not extremely well equipped :laugh:) So in that case I think all girls could run for prom king, as long as their dressing like the typical one. :)

Talyubittu
23-04-2007, 20:41
Do female related laws apply to people who gender identify as male?

Khartoun2004
24-04-2007, 02:47
Do female related laws apply to people who gender identify as male?

Since when are there "gender" related laws?

Talyubittu
25-04-2007, 07:54
Since when are there "gender" related laws?

There are, and have been for awhile...for example.

If this girl claimed her gender identity was Male. Could she go around topless?

freddie
25-04-2007, 09:16
There are, and have been for awhile...for example.

If this girl claimed her gender identity was Male. Could she go around topless?

What's that got to do with LAW?

On the other hand you're right. There are of course gender related laws. Even the preambules of most modern constitutions declare that women's place is in the kitchen where she can ponder what to cook while the husband's out inventing things.

Talyubittu
25-04-2007, 09:20
What's that got to do with LAW?

Most places I have been to don't allow women to expose their breasts in public unless they are breast feeding...

freddie
25-04-2007, 09:30
Most places I have been to don't allow women to expose their breasts in public unless they are breast feeding...

That's not a law though, is it? Correct me if I'm wrong, cause I don't know much about American legislature, I do know though that we have no such laws... people don't do it since it's common sense. Of course owners of bars and restaurants have every right to make their own internal regulatory rules of conduct since it's their place – but I doubt places like that would be to fond of having shirtless guys around neither.

Infact – at least in the EU - laws (and I mean laws as in national or EU legislature) that'd allow sexual discrimination of anykind are null and void.

Talyubittu
25-04-2007, 09:56
Differen't in America.

We have indecent exposure laws. I.E. - Public Nudity. Which is illegal.

For example, in many states it's Illegal for a woman to be topless in public. In Ohio however, it's not.

_________________________________________

At a dance club, most guys are allowed to dance without shirts, but women cannot.

Khartoun2004
26-04-2007, 01:05
There are, and have been for awhile...for example.

If this girl claimed her gender identity was Male. Could she go around topless?

Well it depends on the state. In New York back in like 1995 a law was passed allowing females to walk around topless where ever men are allowed too. Whether or not they do is another issue entirely.

I would also like to point out the fact that South Dakota is not know for progressive or even liberal legislation... enough said.

Talyubittu
26-04-2007, 04:26
I would also like to point out the fact that South Dakota is not know for progressive or even liberal legislation... enough said.

Yet the abortion ban failed here and the gay marriage opt was nearly half/half.

What does that statement have to do with this topic? You and cool seem to have some odd obsession with where I live.

Khartoun2004
26-04-2007, 08:39
Yet the abortion ban failed here and the gay marriage opt was nearly half/half.

hmm yet in the Northeast abortion hasn't even been questioned... so a vote isn't necessary, nor is it necessary in the west. That does not disprove what I said in my prior post.

What does that statement have to do with this topic? You and cool seem to have some odd obsession with where I live.

Since you so very much love when people use evidence South Dakota laws pertaining to Hate Crimes, Anti-Discrimination, adoption, ect. (http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=South_Dakota&CONTENTID=21082&TEMPLATE=/TaggedPage/TaggedPageDisplay.cfm&TPLID=67)

You will notice that South Dakota Does Not protect people's right to Gender Identity and Expression (is that on-topic enough?) or Sexual Orientation under Hate Crimes Statutes. Further more, it also Does Not have Anti-Discrimination laws for GI/E and SO. South Dakota's students' GI/E and SO are also not protected under state laws...

Please explain to me how my statement is neither true nor correct? Or have I completely missed the definititions of Progressive and Liberal in my 20+ years of life?

Talyubittu
26-04-2007, 09:16
hmm yet in the Northeast abortion hasn't even been questioned... so a vote isn't necessary, nor is it necessary in the west. That does not disprove what I said in my prior post.



Since you so very much love when people use evidence South Dakota laws pertaining to Hate Crimes, Anti-Discrimination, adoption, ect. (http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=South_Dakota&CONTENTID=21082&TEMPLATE=/TaggedPage/TaggedPageDisplay.cfm&TPLID=67)

You will notice that South Dakota Does Not protect people's right to Gender Identity and Expression (is that on-topic enough?) or Sexual Orientation under Hate Crimes Statutes. Further more, it also Does Not have Anti-Discrimination laws for GI/E and SO. South Dakota's students' GI/E and SO are also not protected under state laws...

Please explain to me how my statement is neither true nor correct? Or have I completely missed the definititions of Progressive and Liberal in my 20+ years of life?

Yeah, I still don't see how South Dakota is relevant to a girl running for prom King...

SD has like...700,000 people all together. Not to mention, probably oh.....2,000 of all these people are actually gay/bi/s? I'm pretty sure we don't have any transexuals/transgenders as well. Something that is not common wouldn't be enacted into law, it'd be pointless.

And all the same, I don't think it's bad we do not have gender identity laws. I don't believe in gender identity. Reguardles of what the california legislature belives or anyone on this forum.



Please explain to me how my statement is neither true nor correct? Or have I completely missed the definititions of Progressive and Liberal in my 20+ years of life?

Never said it wasn't dear.

| I think you've misunderstood the proper way to debate. You see, before you prove something wrong, someone usually has to say something in contrast to it. And I don't think I've ever said that SD provides laws for any of these things, so once again, how is this relevent?

coolasfcuk
26-04-2007, 09:28
SD has like...700,000 people all together.
ouch
Not to mention, probably oh.....2,000 of all these people are actually gay/bi/s?
what's the 's' part in there? Straight? LoL

I'm pretty sure we don't have any transexuals/transgenders as well. Something that is not common wouldn't be enacted into law, it'd be pointless.

oh my, are you kidding me .... why did you decide you dont have them??? you havent seen them around? i wonder why... lets see.. they get beaten up with sticks or shot with guns... remember Brandon Teena? yeah..... actually, i know of several people from Nebraska (yeah, not SD, but pretty similar) who were transgender and all of them fleeded the place for CAlifornia where they can be themselves and also where they can get the surgery they needed... without any greef..... hmmmm

Talyubittu
26-04-2007, 09:36
ouch

what's the 's' part in there? Straight? LoL



oh my, are you kidding me .... why did you decide you dont have them??? you havent seen them around? i wonder why... lets see.. they get beaten up with sticks or shot with guns... remember Brandon Teena? yeah..... actually, i know of several people from Nebraska (yeah, not SD, but pretty similar) who were transgender and all of them fleeded the place for CAlifornia where they can be themselves and also where they can get the surgery they needed... without any greef..... hmmmm

Lol. The S was a typo :-/


I am not sure we don't have transanything here. I'm just assuming, and if we do it's a very very very small number. It's not like you walk into wal-mart and your transgender-o-meter goes up 10 people. It's just something thats very uncommon here.

Khartoun2004
26-04-2007, 10:19
Cools if I could I would sooo give you more rep points :laugh:

Talyubittu, you seriously must love to show how ignorant you are. Just becasue you've never seen a Trans person in your state does not mean they do not exist there. And then to further the point by saying that becasue they are an insignificant part of the population of your state if they do exist, they therefore do not deserve to have rights; just adds more fuel to mine and cools' stance that your state is full of ignorant, bigoted people. Some friendly advice... stop now while you're still somewhat ahead of the game and go do some research on gender theory before you try to say that Gender Identity doesn't exist.

And all of this is relevent to a Boy trying to run for Prom King because you still refuse to Achknowledge his gender identity. And I am just pointing out the possible sources of your flawed and un-informed arguments. If you want me to stop harping on you for being from South Dakota broaden your mindset outside of the narrowed mind viewpoint of your region of the country. It will not serve you well when you get out of the sheltered life of High School and go off to college or enter the real world.

Talyubittu
26-04-2007, 21:47
Talyubittu, you seriously must love to show how ignorant you are.

Having a different opinion is not ignorance.

Just becasue you've never seen a Trans person in your state does not mean they do not exist there.

I did not say they do not exist. I said there is a miniscule amount.

And then to further the point by saying that becasue they are an insignificant part of the population of your state if they do exist, they therefore do not deserve to have rights

I said nothing of the sort. I said that it's pointless to take time to enact a law that enables something for such a small fraction of a already small population. - It's the same reason why many laws are different from state to state. Population causes differences in many many laws. It's not that we have "ignorant bigoted people", it's that we don't have any reason to have these laws.

Some friendly advice... stop now while you're still somewhat ahead of the game and go do some research on gender theory before you try to say that Gender Identity doesn't exist.

And it didn't exist until the 1950's. It was first a test run to find out where homosexuality orginated from in small children. Robert Stoller created the term, and even today gender identity in the realms of Psychology is still called "Gender Identity Theory". Gender Identity is socially constructed as well according to Psychologists, it's not an state in which you are born. The generic term for Gender Identity as well does not mean "I believe I'm a man in a womans body". It's the type of physical and social status that is thought of partaining to a specific gender. I.E. - Women cook, men go to work. I'd also like to point out that Psychology is a theory to understand how the mind works. It's not an exact brance of science or medicine. Gender Identity has no proof of existance. 5 million people can claim they feel the effects of belonging to another Gender, but it's something they've convicned themselves of mentally. It's like religion, it can't be proven, but people believe it. It's kinda like a gender hypocondriac? How's that for research?

And all of this is relevent to a Boy trying to run for Prom King because you still refuse to Achknowledge his gender identity

She has a vagina. She believes that she is male. No matter how much surgery she gets, or how many hormones she takes, she will still be Female. You can know exactly how an apple is made. But you need nature to grow it. - Gender is the same. You can mess around with whatever you want, but you will always be the sex you are born with. No matter what your genetalia looks like.

If you want me to stop harping on you for being from South Dakota broaden your mindset outside of the narrowed mind viewpoint of your region of the country.

I believe by just knowing information on Gender Identity I already have quite a bit broader mindset, I have asked people sitting around me in class right now what it is and none of them have the slightest clue. Having a broad mindset does not mean I need to agree with you, it means I need to understand and evaluate to form my own opinion. Just because I do not agree with you does not mean I am narrow minded. Personally, I think you're being narrow minded, you are constantly bitching and nagging at me for having a belief other than yours, and I think you need to accept the fact that I am allowed to have my own opinion, whether you are a transexual or not and whether you like my opinion or not.

It will not serve you well when you get out of the sheltered life of High School and go off to college or enter the real world.

For someone who's getting ready to have a fake genitalia, it's a bit rude for you to preach to me about the reality of life, seeing as you obviously don't understand what's real and what isn't. The real world is understanding life as what it is. It's not like I live and attend school in a computer generated perfect world. I know what the real world is like, contrary to popular belief, we get CNN in South Dakota.

I'd also like to say that I believe there is a difference in being Liberal and being Ignorant. And yes, Ignorant. Ignorant to the point where you start forgetting what's real to please people who believe things that are not proven to be real.

OH and I gave cool some rep points, since you couldn't.

Have a nice day. :D

forre
26-04-2007, 22:12
Ааааааааааааааааааааааааа аа! Help! I receive reported posts from this thread. Can you people discuss anything without insulting each other? All next off-top and insults will be deleted even if the posts contain a few sentences on the subject.

The question of gender identities is difficult. We have hundreds of things in our lives based on differences between men and women. These differences are going to remain, either we want it or not. Even we - ourselves, behave differently depending on who we deal with - a man or a woman. We do it every day without even realizing that. Luckily, all went fine with the contest in that particular school and I see the point why. Yes, I think, it's harmless on that scale. When such questions arise, I think often about sports. What would happen, if they allow people born in a wrong body compete with gender opposite to their own. Hmm...

volk1
26-04-2007, 22:15
Some people here have a real problem with accepting others' viewpoints. Yes - it is within reason to debate in this topic. No - it is not a deathmatch. The fact is, no matter how much you argue, no matter how much you call someone ignorant, no matter how much you invalidate someones opinion because of where they live...you won't win. There's nothing to win here. All of this calling out of individuals is very childish.

And I believe some of you need to really think about the word ignorant. Ignorance is defined as a lack of intelligence NOT a conservative viewpoint. I have noticed that many people like to call people with slightly conservative views "ignorant." Maybe some of you feel that not letting this girl run for prom king is ignorant...no, it is simply conservative. So, please, some of you should think of the definition of ignorant before using that word.

And, Khartoun, do you identify as a liberal? I'm assuming you do since you are defending this girl to the death. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Anyways...you might want to think about a liberal is before you attack and berate Talyubittu for his beliefs, cutting him down, calling him ignorant. Part of being a liberal is about being ACCEPTING of free speech...especially when it pertains to personal belief. If you're so liberal, open-minded, and tolerant, why can't you simply accept that Talyubittu has a different belief? Think a little about that. A little hypocritic, don't you think?

There are two different opinions here:
1. Girl should not be able to run for prom king
2. Girl should be able to run for prom king

Simple.

If you guys are as grown up as you present yourselves, you guys should be able to have a civil debate without attacking the person themselves.
This is all I will say on the matter.

So, back to the debate.
Be respectful. Have fun.

QueenBee
26-04-2007, 22:18
I receive reported posts from this thread.
Sorry, but whoever did that is lame, according to me. :laugh:

When such questions arise, I think often about sports. What would happen, if they allow people born in a wrong body compete with gender opposite to their own.
Okay, I have nothing to base this on, but I heard somewhere that it isn't allowed because men are "naturally stronger than women". I don't know if this means that they have more muscle mass and women more fat, but I agree with it. I think if you look at women and men in general, the men are usually stronger. Because in sports it's about how well you use your body and I think men have an advantage when it comes to that.

And also, it saddens me to see that people are jumping on Talyubittu for where he lives. I've known you guys for several years so naturally I should be on "your side", but even though I know nothing about South Dakota, I can't understand why you keep putting him down for living there. Not everyone fits into the stereotype. That's like saying all feminists are hairy. But I guess we can't say that because people would be upset. :rolleyes:

As usual - we are "open for opinions" here. But we're only open for opinions when they don't fit into society's POW. We think open-minded people who accept the whole GLBT (NO I don't know if that's in correct order) community are intelligent individuals, but as soon as someone goes against this even a little bit, we freak out.

la aurora
26-04-2007, 23:34
I can't really relate to this whole 'being in the wrong gender' situation, as being the careless type I am, I don't think I'd feel any worse in the male body than I feel in my female one. For me it's less on gender level and more on the level of emotions and aesthetics. Both genders have their pro's and con's. As long as this body is relatively healthy, I'm cool with it and I'd find my ways to find a look I'd be comfortable enough with. But then I never was known for having a healthy 'down to earth' mind, so I can understand that some people may have different view on such things.

What I can't understand is all this fuss about this article. If the person feels happy getting this opportunity and people around him/her don't really mind giving him/her this opportinity, then why the hell would 'we' mind? It's a good lesson of acceptance for people that feel different, it's great for Cinthia to get this support by his/her classmates, it's an example of humanism winning over burocracy. People will have fun, someone will feel happy for some time. What's the deal? I used to play soccer against guys. I payed for it and learned my lesson (after jumping on 1 leg for 2 weeks after that lol). I could of course refuse to compete against them, could say it's unfair. But I didn't. I felt fine with it, they felt fine with it, people around us felt fine with it. Who cares about it being unfair and unlogical as far as it's all voluntary.

There are situations that are more complicated than this one. Of course people that feel they are wrong gender should have their feelings respected but it doesn't mean that feelings of people that feel bad about it shouldn't be respected at the same time. Respect, loyality, politeness and trying to understand opinions and feelings other than your own are especially important with issues like this. It's really a shame that while discussing it, we totally forget about all those important things. It's good to show support for some random person we never met but it's worth nothing if we fail to apply same rules to people we communicate with directly.

PowerPuff Grrl
27-04-2007, 01:14
And it didn't exist until the 1950's. It was first a test run to find out where homosexuality orginated from in small children. Robert Stoller created the term, and even today gender identity in the realms of Psychology is still called "Gender Identity Theory". Gender Identity is socially constructed as well according to Psychologists, it's not an state in which you are born. The generic term for Gender Identity as well does not mean "I believe I'm a man in a womans body". It's the type of physical and social status that is thought of partaining to a specific gender. I.E. - Women cook, men go to work. I'd also like to point out that Psychology is a theory to understand how the mind works. It's not an exact brance of science or medicine. Gender Identity has no proof of existance. 5 million people can claim they feel the effects of belonging to another Gender, but it's something they've convicned themselves of mentally. It's like religion, it can't be proven, but people believe it. It's kinda like a gender hypocondriac? How's that for research?

The idea of gender identity has been around since written history, or at least as far as we know. It has only been studied in the past hundred years, doesn't mean it hasn't existed before then, it has just been recently identified as such.
But you're right, psychology and sociology are not exact sciences. Doesn't mean though everything studied under those are always questionable; everything simply is open-ended. Gender identity theory has revealed some truths; the idea of gender or at least the idea that we all prescribe to is a social construct.
That is that women cook, men go to work, girls should be elected to prom queen and boys to prom king (Not to mention, this is all also heteronormative). You yourself, whether you are aware of it or not, are prescribing to that notion. There is no right or wrong approach to this, we just need to see where we are coming from becuase we all do it in our little ways.
Like this:
That's like saying all feminists are hairy. But I guess we can't say that because people would be upset.
Damn straight we'd be upset!
And we are not hairy, fuzzy perhaps.
Hater!

In any case, not every culture sees gender this way. Gender is not even binary in some cultures.
And why not, sex isn't either!


And just one more thing with all of te red state/blue state; Rick Santorum was a Senator from Pennsylvania, SANTORUM!!!
The frothy mix of lube and fecal matter that is sometimes the byproduct of anal sex. I had to, I just had to spread the word baby!

Talyubittu
27-04-2007, 01:50
In any case, not every culture sees gender this way. Gender is not even binary in some cultures.
And why not, sex isn't either!

I don't understand this...how can gender be described as binary? | are you refering to chromosomes and such?

PowerPuff Grrl
27-04-2007, 04:27
I don't understand this...how can gender be described as binary? | are you refering to chromosomes and such?
Uh no, I'm just talking about male and female binary opposites; I'm strictly speaking about gender not sex.
Any talk pertaining to biology will draw a complete blank from me, I totally skipped out on bio during my high school years.

Khartoun2004
29-04-2007, 07:23
I would like to point out after re-reading this thread that some people have no clue what Transgender actually means... so for clarifications sake I'll define it now.

Trangender is any person that bends the strict gender binary of our culture and society. This term includes everyone from Cross-dressers, drag queens, drag kings, gender queers, gender benders and also transsexuals. It's essentially an umbrella term.

Oh and by the way, the guy in the article didn't win the crown... it went to a mindless jock as is the usual with most high school proms :rolleyes:

Talyubittu
29-04-2007, 09:25
... it went to a mindless jock as is the usual with most high school proms

Better than going to a dickless girl.


I also think it's a bit rude that you're stereotyping jocks as being mindless. Weren't you arguing against stereotypes this entire time?
Hmm? Seems like someone has double standards.


It might also shock you to know that most jocks aren't "Mindless".
Anyone involved with any type of school activity in America has to maintain a GPA of 3.0 I believe.

Khartoun2004
30-04-2007, 09:15
SD has like...700,000 people all together.


I'd like to point out that the city I grew up in has over 300,000 more people than your entire state... the current state I live in has also about 300,000 more people living in it and it's the smallest state by land mass... you could fit 75 Rhode Islands in South Dakota... so what was the point of bringing up population? unless it's to prove the point that your state is gigantic and it's entirely possible that their are plenty of trans people and you just haven't run into them, I'm quite positive RI has more Queer people per square mile than SD.

Speaking of girls running for Prom King... My girlfriends ex-girlfriend ran for Prom Queen and Prom King the other day :laugh: It was wicked awesome :coctail:

Talyubittu
30-04-2007, 09:29
I'd like to point out that the city I grew up in has over 300,000 more people than your entire state... the current state I live in has also about 300,000 more people living in it and it's the smallest state by land mass... you could fit 75 Rhode Islands in South Dakota... so what was the point of bringing up population? unless it's to prove the point that your state is gigantic and it's entirely possible that their are plenty of trans people and you just haven't run into them, I'm quite positive RI has more Queer people per square mile than SD.

Which was my point? Did you not catch it? We were talking about laws protecting gay's and transgenders, my response was that we have a way to small a population of transgenders to make laws for them.



- How does one run for both prom king and queen?

Khartoun2004
30-04-2007, 09:46
- How does one run for both prom king and queen?

because their school doesn't have the students vote for people, they let the location's staff members pick the Prom King and Queen. She just happened to join both lines. I personally think that's a fair way to pick the prom court anyway, it eliminates popularity from the equation entirely... that's what Student Council elections are for :lol:

And Massachusetts protects students' GI/E and SO that's why. I have my alma-mater well trained in queer rights, that was my legacy there and I fought for them for three years... they know better.

Ace of Order
30-04-2007, 09:49
my response was that we have a way to small a population of transgenders to make laws for them.


Woah. First, hey, nice to meet ya.

Second off...I gotta ask: even though they're a small percentage of the population, why wouldn't you want to make laws protecting them?

- We have laws that protect consumers with x amount of debt from being hassled by collection agencies.
- We have laws that protect disabled persons from workplace discrimination.
- And we have laws that protect religious minorities, like Muslims and Unitarians, from religious discrimination.

So, even though all of the three above groups of people (consumers in debt, disabled persons, and religious minorities) are a small percentage of the US population, we as a society are compassionate and extend protections to them that they cannot achieve in and of themselves. Saying that transgender individuals aren't worthy of legal protection and recourse not only sounds un-compassionate, but it sounds hateful. As a gay man, I'm also in the minority of Americans, but I still firmly believe I should be protected from hateful/harmful attacks by other people.

Wouldn't you agree?

Talyubittu
30-04-2007, 09:59
Woah. First, hey, nice to meet ya.

Second off...I gotta ask: even though they're a small percentage of the population, why wouldn't you want to make laws protecting them?

- We have laws that protect consumers with x amount of debt from being hassled by collection agencies.
- We have laws that protect disabled persons from workplace discrimination.
- And we have laws that protect religious minorities, like Muslims and Unitarians, from religious discrimination.

So, even though all of the three above groups of people (consumers in debt, disabled persons, and religious minorities) are a small percentage of the US population, we as a society are compassionate and extend protections to them that they cannot achieve in and of themselves. Saying that transgender individuals aren't worthy of legal protection and recourse not only sounds un-compassionate, but it sounds hateful. As a gay man, I'm also in the minority of Americans, but I still firmly believe I should be protected from hateful/harmful attacks by other people.

Wouldn't you agree?

Yes I do agree. And I'm glad you brought it up. Most places of employment here recognize "Sexual Orientation" as something that can be discriminated against, and many of them follow through with sexual orientation descrimination. I'd rather these companies do it on their own LIKE these are, than doing it only because they're required to by law.

However, in order for a law to be passed, it needs a purpose. - Five transexuals in South Dakota who want a law passed, will never get one no matter how much they wish for it, because they don't represent the number of people needed to promose a said law. Not to mention, like I said, it's virtually non existant here. I highly, highly, highly, HIGHLY doubt that we have ANY transexuals in this state.

Talyubittu
30-04-2007, 10:02
it eliminates popularity from the equation entirely

Are you serious? Popularity IS the sole reason a person is picked. The people who win are generally WELL liked. It's not because they're simply "popular". Believe it or not, most of us are nice people. And there is nothing wrong with being well liked.

Ace of Order
30-04-2007, 10:16
Yes I do agree. And I'm glad you brought it up. Most places of employment here recognize "Sexual Orientation" as something that can be discriminated against, and many of them follow through with sexual orientation descrimination. I'd rather these companies do it on their own LIKE these are, than doing it only because they're required to by law.

However, in order for a law to be passed, it needs a purpose. - Five transexuals in South Dakota who want a law passed, will never get one no matter how much they wish for it, because they don't represent the number of people needed to promose a said law. Not to mention, like I said, it's virtually non existant here. I highly, highly, highly, HIGHLY doubt that we have ANY transexuals in this state.

Well, I don't have an awful lot of confidence in your assertion that you have no transsexuals in your state.

Gender Identity and Expression can take a LOT of different forms. Technically speaking, a boy who wears girls jeans (re: "emo boys") is cross-dressing, and that is transcending the gender barrier and being transgender, though not to the same degree as a transsexual.

Did a small bit of research and here are a few links to some Transgender support groups for transgender people:

http://www.tgcrossroads.org/resources/details.asp?id=242&state=SD
http://www.tgcrossroads.org/resources/list.asp?cat=Support&subcat=MTF&state=SD

I don't know, kind of make me wonder why there would be support groups for a population that doesn't exist, eh? :)

I would disagree with the law not having a purpose: A state can send a powerful message to it's citizens by standing up for an individual's right to lead a happy life without worrying about being fired from work, kicked out of a home, or blatantly attacked on the street by a group of punks screaming "tranny! you look like a girl! effing fa**ot!" with no chance of legal hate-crime recourse.

And well dude, I'm not transgender, but you better BELIEVE I care enough for people who are that I would lobby my state for protections for them. White men lobbied to give black folks the right to vote and ban racial discrimination, and men helped women get the right to vote.

I'm actually lobbying now for a bill at the RI General Assembly that would outlaw hate-crimes based on Gender Identity/Expression because I think it is wrong. It's the one thing RI law doesn't protect against, sadly. Lesbians that cut their hair short like a boy's are affected by Gender Identity legislation, just like boys that wear short-shorts are sometimes picked on for dressing like girls. I've heard some of the testimony... not all of it just impacts the transgender community.

Talyubittu
30-04-2007, 10:20
Well, I don't have an awful lot of confidence in your assertion that you have no transsexuals in your state.

Gender Identity and Expression can take a LOT of different forms. Technically speaking, a boy who wears girls jeans (re: "emo boys") is cross-dressing, and that is transcending the gender barrier and being transgender, though not to the same degree as a transsexual.

Did a small bit of research and here are a few links to some Transgender support groups for transgender people:

http://www.tgcrossroads.org/resources/details.asp?id=242&state=SD
http://www.tgcrossroads.org/resources/list.asp?cat=Support&subcat=MTF&state=SD

I don't know, kind of make me wonder why there would be support groups for a population that doesn't exist, eh? :)

I would disagree with the law not having a purpose: A state can send a powerful message to it's citizens by standing up for an individual's right to lead a happy life without worrying about being fired from work, kicked out of a home, or blatantly attacked on the street by a group of punks screaming "tranny! you look like a girl! effing fa**ot!" with no chance of legal hate-crime recourse.

And well dude, I'm not transgender, but you better BELIEVE I care enough for people who are that I would lobby my state for protections for them. White men lobbied to give black folks the right to vote and ban racial discrimination, and men helped women get the right to vote.

I'm actually lobbying now for a bill at the RI General Assembly that would outlaw hate-crimes based on Gender Identity/Expression because I think it is wrong. It's the one thing RI law doesn't protect against, sadly. Lesbians that cut their hair short like a boy's are affected by Gender Identity legislation, just like boys that wear short-shorts are sometimes picked on for dressing like girls. I've heard some of the testimony... not all of it just impacts the transgender community.


Dear you need to read my post on the last page. I do not believe in "gender identity", and neither do many people. It's something you learn, you are not born with it. Gender identity support groups are there for no purpose other than to provide comfort. They are baised and do not give oppinions from both sides of the argument. - Study up some psychology and where the term came from to understand what it is.

"tranny! you look like a girl! effing fa**ot!" with no chance of legal hate-crime recourse.

Anytime someone attacks another person I believe it's out of hate? So why give some guy another 5 years in prison becuase he happened to be attacing a tranny? Hmm? Are you aware of the damage hate crimes do? - A boy who eats lunch at school containing pork was nearly prosecuted because he was sitting next to an Islamic child. That is not something we need happening just because transgenders exist. - You CHOSE to be a transgender and get a sex change, you do not chose your sexuality. I do not believe something you could have prevented/not done should be grounds for someone else to be punished for a "hate crime".

I would disagree with the law not having a purpose: A state can send a powerful message to it's citizens by standing up for an individual's right to lead a happy life without worrying about being fired from work, kicked out of a home, or blatantly attacked on the street by a group of punks screaming "tranny! you look like a girl! effing fa**ot!" with no chance of legal hate-crime recourse.


As I said, we don't have a large enough population IF any. Honestly, you've probably never even been to the state I live in, so please don't insinuate that there are transanything here. I'm almost 100 percent confident that there are not.

Khartoun2004
30-04-2007, 10:22
I would also like to point out that the Transgender community in the United States has the highest murder rate of any minority in the country. In fact the rate is sooo astronomical that the Transgender Day of Rememberance has been observed nation wide longer than the Day of Silence for LGBT youth in schools.

Talyubittu, do you still want to contend that Trans people in your state do not deserve the right to live, even though you think their population is so insignificant?

Talyubittu
30-04-2007, 10:25
Talyubittu, do you still want to content that Trans people in your state do not deserve the right to live, even though you think their population is so insignificant?

For some odd reason, none of my posts seem to say they don't deserve the right to live. So whats your point?

I would also like to point out that the Transgender community in the United States has the highest murder rate of any minority in the country. In fact the rate is sooo astronomical that the Transgender Day of Rememberance has been observed nation wide longer than the Day of Silence for LGBT youth in schools.

Edit: - The transgender day of remembrance has only been running since 1998.

The day of silence was started in 1997.

Talyubittu
30-04-2007, 10:32
I'm going to bed, I'll continue this debate tomorrow.

Khartoun2004
30-04-2007, 10:34
Transgender Day of Remembrance (http://www.gender.org/remember/day/).

HRC stats on Trans violence (http://www.hrc.org/Content/NavigationMenu/HRC/Get_Informed/Issues/Transgender_Issues1/Transgender_Basics/Transgender_Basics.htm#2)... scroll down to Hate Violence.

Ace of Order
30-04-2007, 10:41
Mmm...alright buddy.

First off, I'm a second year Psychology and Political Science Double-Major at the University of Rhode Island, one of the best Psychology schools in the country. And psychologists are in concert that there IS such a thing as Gender Identity and Expression.

I assume that you acknowledge a difference between your anatomical sex (tip: Look under your boxers) and your sense of gender. That's pretty general psychology, so I shouldn't have to cover that. So, since you are confident that you're a boy (You know: You feel comfortable with getting facial and body hair, and you are comfortable with your penis, and the roles society expects you to live up to as a man), wouldn't you agree that you have a sense of "identity" because of your gender?

It's one thing, dude, to say that you personally do not believe in gender identity, but to debunk science and declare that gender identity and expression are not valid is incorrect, and I think that perhaps YOU need to do some brushing up on psychology and the relationship between the body and the mind. Especially check up on Maslow's theory of Self-Actualization.

And dude...

Anytime someone attacks another person I believe it's out of hate? So why give some guy another 5 years in prison becuase he happened to be attacing a tranny? Hmm?

No, that is not correct. For something to be a Hate-Crime you need to demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that the primary motive behind the intrusive and/or harmful action was a sincere hate for an aspect of yourself that you cannot help. Race, sex, religion, age, sexual orientation.

For instance, a punk sees a woman on the street and decides to hold her at gunpoint and rob her. Is his primary motive the fact that she is a woman? No, because it could easily be argued in court that if a scrawney looking man, a young boy, or an african-american woman were standing there, they probably had an equal chance of being robbed.

But if a boy is walking down the street and a car stops, some punks get out, call the boy a fa**ot and taunt him and then beat him up and speed off, it IS a hate crime because the perpetrator demonstrated active hatred for the boy's perceived sexual orientation. In court, with a witness, it can be proven that the punks were in fact irritated enough by the boy's perceived sexual orientation to act out and harm him, and if sexual orientation is a protected class in that state/country's Hate Crimes act, it can be invoked and the perpetrator can receive a harsher sentence.

As I said, we don't have a large enough population IF any. Honestly, you've probably never even been to the state I live in, so please don't insinuate that there are transanything here. I'm almost 100 percent confident that there are not.

No, I have not been to South Dakota, but I do know that my boss has been to Council of State Legislatures meetings, and that stuff like this has come up before the States, and it is a problem everywhere. Every state, from Maine to Alabama to Minnesota to Wyoming and yea, even South Dakota. Are you honestly going to sit here and tell me that out of the 700,000 people in your state, not ONE of them (Not a ONE) is transgender? Not only does that go against statistics (Ruddimentary studies estimate 1 in every 30,000 people is transsexual: Source: Fundamentals of Abnormal Psychology {4th ed.}, Comer, pg. 345-347, in case, you happen to have the book), it goes against common sense. Transgender people, being an umbrella term, has a MUCH higher prevalence.

Have you ever seen a drag queen/drag king? (A girl in a tuxedo or a suit of any kind IS considered cross-dressing, by the way.)

Khartoun2004
30-04-2007, 15:16
For some odd reason, none of my posts seem to say they don't deserve the right to live. So whats your point?


My point is that when an entire group of people are targeted for murder and Hate Crimes legislation is not passed, it's essentially saying that they are not worthy of the basic human right to live free of persecution. Which if you've ever taken the time to read the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution, you would know is not an American value. This country was founded on the principle of every person's; independent of race, creed, sexual orientation, gender identity/expression, ethnicty, national origin or religion, inherent worth and dignity. The job of the state and government is to protect those that are unable to protect themselves no matter what percentage of the population they make up.

If you disagree, I suggest you take out a copy of John Locke's Second Treatise on Civil Government which heavily influenced the creation of the United States of America. Citizens of a democratic state give up certain rights to the government with the expectation that the government will protect them from others infinging on their rights, so that they may spend their time and energy in the pursuit of other things like "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Property". This includes Transgender individuals (which encompasses more than just transsexuals)... I'm assuming that South Dakota has girls that are tomboys and effiminate acting boys... they are also covered under the term Transgender.

Then again I think the Boston Glode sums it up nicely also (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/letters/articles/2007/04/30/hate_crime_protection_has_its_foes/).

Talyubittu
01-05-2007, 05:51
And psychologists are in concert that there IS such a thing as Gender Identity and Expression.

And doctors and many scientists believe that psychology is a completely inprecise branch of education. I don't believe in it. Anyone can say something and put a bullshit story behind it. Thats what this entire "Gender expression" is. If you ask any medical doctor they'll say it dosen't exist and that it's just a wanting of the oppposite sex. It's not gender expression anymore than deciding to wear a certain namebrand clothing is ___ expression.

I'm assuming that South Dakota has girls that are tomboys and effiminate acting boys... they are also covered under the term Transgender.

Yes, the term transgender applies to anyone who is taken out of what is expected from them in society. However - girls have been involved with many male related things for the last half century, I believe the defiinition needs updating. None of the girls I know who play sports or anything seem to fall out of their female social range. There is a BIG difference in a girl who wants to play sports, and work on cars compared to a girl who wants a penis.

PowerPuff Grrl
01-05-2007, 06:22
Are you a Scientologist?

Talyubittu
01-05-2007, 06:52
Are you a Scientologist?

Nope, I just believe there is a LARGE difference in the study of the mind, and the study of made up conditions to fit a social pattern that has always been present when discussing a social-gender role. | If psychology was just a study of the mind it would be a different case, it's not that simple anymore however. Many of you people argue that psychology explains gender identity to be anyone who dosen't fit into a social category that is usually associated with that persons biological sex. - This does not mean that you can RANDOMLY decide you want to be the opposite sex. You are confusing terms. Transgender and transexual are different, and not everyone who is transgender wishes to be the opposite sex. If all of you who claim to have such advanced study in psychology would have been studying 50 years ago, you would have also been told that homosexuality was a mental dissease. So whats your point? Psychology is an opinionated derative of science. It's not exact by any means. The human mind isn't a tool that is read like a book, so I don't know why colleges and universities think that you can learn and study the nature of it by one.

freddie
01-05-2007, 09:31
Nope, I just believe there is a LARGE difference in the study of the mind, and the study of made up conditions to fit a social pattern that has always been present when discussing a social-gender role. | If psychology was just a study of the mind it would be a different case, it's not that simple anymore however. Many of you people argue that psychology explains gender identity to be anyone who dosen't fit into a social category that is usually associated with that persons biological sex. - This does not mean that you can RANDOMLY decide you want to be the opposite sex. You are confusing terms. Transgender and transexual are different, and not everyone who is transgender wishes to be the opposite sex. If all of you who claim to have such advanced study in psychology would have been studying 50 years ago, you would have also been told that homosexuality was a mental dissease. So whats your point? Psychology is an opinionated derative of science. It's not exact by any means. The human mind isn't a tool that is read like a book, so I don't know why colleges and universities think that you can learn and study the nature of it by one.

The same way as you can study the nature of evolution or space without really having anything absolutely tangible to fall back upon. Science is about making guesses and then substantiating those guesses with controled experiements. Even the laws of nature aren't really "laws". They're just our description of how four fundamental forces react in a 3D environment. The same with psychology. It tries to get answers from studying human psyche and as far as I'm concerned it's just as valid as any other scientific field of research.

Talyubittu
01-05-2007, 09:58
The same way as you can study the nature of evolution or space without really having anything absolutely tangible to fall back upon. Science is about making guesses and then substantiating those guesses with controled experiements. Even the laws of nature aren't really "laws". They're just our description of how four fundamental forces react in a 3D environment. The same with psychology. It tries to get answers from studying human psyche and as far as I'm concerned it's just as valid as any other scientific field of research.

You are not comparing it to something that is certain, so of course you'll get that conclusion. You're comparing it to the unknown, in essence - itself.

Psychology is a branch of medicine, however, if you compare psychology and pediatrics, you'll notice that pediatrics, along with all other medical ailments, are tangible, and can therefore be proven to exist. They all have the same definate outcome most of the time, it's not the same as comparing it to something else that has a Infinity! amount of outcomes.

Ace of Order
01-05-2007, 20:33
Psychology is a branch of science, not medicine. The actual definition of psychology is: The scientific study of human behavior and mental processes (Discovering Psychology, 3rd Edition, pg. 3). Psychiatry is a branch of medicine that deals with mental, emotional, and behavioral disorders. Please do not confuse the two terms. A psychiatrist is enabled to prescribe medicine, a psychologist is not.

The thing about science, Talyubittu, is that ALL of the acknowledged sciences rely on hypotheses and proving/disproving those hypotheses in order to define our world. Psychology is a COMPLETELY legit school of science because it follows the laws of the Scientific Method, using hypotheses about how the mind works to piece together the puzzle of our minds and behaviors.

Your point about homosexuality being a mental disorder 40 years ago is moot. Psychology as a science has analyzed homosexuality many, many times over the years, through thousands of different circumstances and people, and we have reached a conclusion as a school that homosexuality is a legit sexual orientation. That is our modern belief.

You'll recall that recently, science has changed it's collective mind on several ideas we once took for fact. For instance, Pluto is no longer considered a planet of our solar system. The Human Genome project: It was once believed that you had a gene for every single protein in your body. That has since been dis-proven. Finally, transgenderism is now believed to be a biological disorder instead of a mental disorder (http://www.harrybenjaminsyndrome-info.org). It is classified as an inter-sex condition. (Disclaimer: HBS is classified as Gender Identity Disorder by the DSM-IV TR, but the scientific community is confident that in the next revision of the book, GID will be replaced by HBS.)

Science evolves through the ages, my friend. Keep in mind that, during the early days of human civilization, most civilizations welcomed and embraced homosexuality. Greece, Egypt, Sumeria, India, Rome, etc. Science is now going full circle with it's idea on homosexuality.

As for comparing psychology and pediatrics, I do not think that is a valid comparison. Psychology is an investigational branch of science, a family it shares with biology, chemistry, and physics, while pediatrics is a medicinal science, along with radiology, urology, endocrinology, and oncology.

Talyubittu
01-05-2007, 21:24
Psychology is an investigational branch of science

Point made.

Ace of Order
01-05-2007, 21:57
Not so fast.

Being an investigational science does not disqualify psychology's finding and assertions as valid, nor does it mean that we shouldn't take what psychology says as concrete. Please keep in mind that many, many schools of science are investigational, like the examples I gave. Also keep in mind that every single scientific book and journal out there are based off what "investigational" sciences say is correct.

Just because something is investigational does not mean is it not right. It's just that what we think is "right" evolved over time. And right now, at this point in history, the scientific community believes that homosexuality is valid, and it believes that gender identity and expression are valid, and it believes that GID/HBS is valid.

Your response makes me think that you do not fully understand what being an investigational science means, dude... investigational is not synonymous to imaginary. It just means "this is what we believe to be true and correct, until such evidence comes forth as to make us question this conclusion again.” Which does happen, often.

Talyubittu
01-05-2007, 22:03
Not so fast.

Being an investigational science does not disqualify psychology's finding and assertions as valid, nor does it mean that we shouldn't take what psychology says as concrete. Please keep in mind that many, many schools of science are investigational, like the examples I gave. Also keep in mind that every single scientific book and journal out there are based off what "investigational" sciences say is correct.

Just because something is investigational does not mean is it not right. It's just that what we think is "right" evolved over time. And right now, at this point in history, the scientific community believes that homosexuality is valid, and it believes that gender identity and expression are valid, and it believes that GID/HBS is valid.

Your response makes me think that you do not fully understand what being an investigational science means, dude... investigational is not synonymous to imaginary. It just means "this is what we believe to be true and correct, until such evidence comes forth as to make us question this conclusion again.” Which does happen, often.

nor does it mean that we shouldn't take what psychology says as concrete.
Yes. Because you're suffering from the mental dissease of homosexuality aren't you?

Your response makes me think that you do not fully understand what being an investigational science means
I'm guessing it has something to do with theory and something that hasn't been proven correct, however foundations support the said answer.

Gender Identity

Like I said. There's a difference in wanting to be the opposite sex and doing things that the opposite sex usually does. It's not the same thing.

Ace of Order
01-05-2007, 22:24
Yes. Because you're suffering from the mental dissease of homosexuality aren't you?

But...it isn't a disease as far as the scientific community is concerned. :) And I hate to say, but EVERYTHING we currently "know" is pretty much a theory. Because at any point in time, new evidence could present itself that could cause us to re-evaluate what we "consider" to be fact right now. (Note: Pluto.) What you take as fact is really just a heavily believed theory. I choose to accept the scientific community's belief that our atmosphere is made of oxygen, carbon dioxide, and other misc. gases, that the speed of light is constant, and that homosexuality is legit. However... that does not in no way mean that it should not be accepted as "fact", because the whole concept of a Fact is based in our understanding of logic and on our investigational sciences.


I'm guessing it has something to do with theory and something that hasn't been proven correct, however foundations support the said answer.

If that's your answer, then I assume you take absolutely nothing as fact, because everything we know is based off the investigational sciences. Everything.

Like I said. There's a difference in wanting to be the opposite sex and doing things that the opposite sex usually does. It's not the same thing.

Interesting. There was a study done in the Netherlands involving several autopsies of pre-op transexuals that found that they biologically had the brain formations and size of their personally identified gender. So it would seem that they did in fact understand that their body was not in congruence with their mind (or for that matter, their physical brain). Source: http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm

It would seem that there is valid biological "proof" of transsexualism.

If you're going to go back several decades and say that I have the mental disorder of homosexuality, then I'm going to playfully go back several centuries to when there were only 13 colonies making up America, and say that you're not American because you're off in the wilderness to the West. I mean, it WAS "fact" that America was only the thirteen states back then... :coctail:

Talyubittu
02-05-2007, 05:04
But...it isn't a disease as far as the scientific community is concerned. :) And I hate to say, but EVERYTHING we currently "know" is pretty much a theory. Because at any point in time, new evidence could present itself that could cause us to re-evaluate what we "consider" to be fact right now. (Note: Pluto.) What you take as fact is really just a heavily believed theory. I choose to accept the scientific community's belief that our atmosphere is made of oxygen, carbon dioxide, and other misc. gases, that the speed of light is constant, and that homosexuality is legit. However... that does not in no way mean that it should not be accepted as "fact", because the whole concept of a Fact is based in our understanding of logic and on our investigational sciences.




If that's your answer, then I assume you take absolutely nothing as fact, because everything we know is based off the investigational sciences. Everything.



Interesting. There was a study done in the Netherlands involving several autopsies of pre-op transexuals that found that they biologically had the brain formations and size of their personally identified gender. So it would seem that they did in fact understand that their body was not in congruence with their mind (or for that matter, their physical brain). Source: http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm

It would seem that there is valid biological "proof" of transsexualism.

If you're going to go back several decades and say that I have the mental disorder of homosexuality, then I'm going to playfully go back several centuries to when there were only 13 colonies making up America, and say that you're not American because you're off in the wilderness to the West. I mean, it WAS "fact" that America was only the thirteen states back then... :coctail:


Interesting. There was a study done in the Netherlands involving several autopsies of pre-op transexuals that found that they biologically had the brain formations and size of their personally identified gender. So it would seem that they did in fact understand that their body was not in congruence with their mind (or for that matter, their physical brain). Source: http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm

This still dosen't make what I said untrue. There IS a difference in a girl who likes to play sports, than a girl who wants a penis. And obviously that was so with the pre op's, your body adapts to your enviornment and your mental state. If you can convince yourself that you're sick, you're going to feel sick. If you can convince yourself that you are the wrong gender, there is bound to be some chnages in hormones and other aspects of the body.

- As for fact/fiction of science. I believe things that have SUBSTANTIAL evidence to be true. Being a transexual as I said, is something you convince yourself of, and then opt to either have an operation or not. It's not like transexuals are natural beings of the world that are not yet understood. It's a man created science that causes the change, just because a person can confuse their body, does not mean that it's something that is normal to do. I think scientists should take this into concideration when they make some of their analysis.

good points however it's nice to have someone to debate with who dosen't rip my head off for living in the midwest for once. I respect that. R+

True, but I don't ever remember whatever causes homosexexuality to annex texas and florida, or make the Louisiana purchase.

Khartoun2004
02-05-2007, 06:21
This still dosen't make what I said untrue. There IS a difference in a girl who likes to play sports, than a girl who wants a penis. And obviously that was so with the pre op's, your body adapts to your enviornment and your mental state. If you can convince yourself that you're sick, you're going to feel sick. If you can convince yourself that you are the wrong gender, there is bound to be some chnages in hormones and other aspects of the body.

Actually, Medicine (which you say is concrete) has proven that the basic structures of our brain are formed while inutero and DO NOT change after birth. Sure the brain matures and new connections between neurons are made, but the brain does not create more matter than it already has post birth nor does it change the size and shape of it after birth either. So actually you are factual incorrect about the "hormonal and other changes".

To change the hormonal chemistry of your body you must inject hormones from man made sources.

Ace of Order
02-05-2007, 06:50
- As for fact/fiction of science. I believe things that have SUBSTANTIAL evidence to be true. Being a transexual as I said, is something you convince yourself of, and then opt to either have an operation or not. It's not like transexuals are natural beings of the world that are not yet understood. It's a man created science that causes the change, just because a person can confuse their body, does not mean that it's something that is normal to do. I think scientists should take this into concideration when they make some of their analysis.


I definitely disagree with your assertion that you convince yourself of being transsexual. I knew when i was a kid that something was not right because I did not find girls attractive. It's something that came as a dawning light, a realization, over an extended period of time when i was coming of age.

I've had the privilege of being the friend of someone who was a girl when i met them, but is now transitioning to a boy. And by listening to them and listening to the opinions of professors at my school (Not everyone was on the same side of the debate, mind you), I honestly believe that it is the same type of realization for transgender people: A realization that, as a kid (or whenever they realize it, after all, sexual orientation is also something that doesn't become apparent to people until sometimes mid-life), they just don't feel comfortable in their own skin.

It's something foreign to them. "Not their body." I mean, when I look into the mirror, I have to say I'm pretty pleased with what I see. The freckles irk me sometimes, but what can i do, I'm Irish. But that's NOTHING compared to being absolutely disgusted with myself every time I have to look at my torso or groin. The trauma associated with that is probably a factor psychologists take into consideration when they diagnose someone with Gender Identity Disorder. It really does hurt the person mentally to be "trapped" in a foreign body.

I mean, and perhaps this is a point you can empathize with me on, how would you feel if you, as the person you are, with your own beliefs, morals, values etc, as well as your confidence in being a boy and your appreciation for your genitals, suddenly were thrust into a body with boobs the size of tangerines and a vagina? How would you feel?

How you might feel in that situation is something that psychologists take into account. You might respond that you don't think a transsexual is IN that situation to begin with, because they have convinced themselves they're the opposite sex. But take into consideration the studies that have shown that transsexual people show the cognitive and behavioral characteristics of the gender they identify with. To cinvince oneself to go against society and copy the opposite sex is a pretty remarkable feat. I wouldn't go through such a re-conditioning of my mind if it were a "choice". But transsexuals don't have a "choice" to make in that regard. Their only choice... is to take the steps necessary to bring their body in line with the thinking patterns and physical make-up of their brain. Of what they truly feel their body is supposed to be, feel like, and look like.

Oooohhhhh.... make no mistake, my friend, I am THE definition of the provincial RHode Islander. I whine every time I get taken as "far" as Massachusetts on a small errand (read: roadtrip). I see people on the road with license plates from any state other than Massachusetts (read: Massholes), Rhode Island, or New York (Just because one of my best friends is a New Yorker and I'd get backhanded for dissing NY) and I get flustered and tell them to get the f*ck out of my state.

Out-of-staters can't drive, are rude and obnoxious, refuse to obey our traffic laws, DARE to dis my accent, AND (ohhhh...) seem to think that Rhode Island is too small to be a state. NEVERMIND those gods-condemned Nutmeggers (The Connecticut people), who have this LUDICRIS idea in their heads that they should annex Rhode Island. Ohhh, Taly, let me tell you, out-of-staters are crazy. Absolutely looney.

"I'ma Roe Dy'landa and you'se out-a-statahs have no idear what you'ser talkin' 'bout."

PS: It's all in good fun, this Off-TOpic, and I hope it made you smile, but seriously, one of my weaknesses (well, *I* consider it a strength...) is that I'm a damn provincial son-of-a-gun. Feel free to poke fun at it. BTW, the quote above IS how my accent sounds. Ask Khartoun2004...