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forre
05-02-2007, 13:18
The authorities in Nepal have granted a man who dresses and behaves as a woman both male and female citizenship. The unprecedented legal status was given to 40-year-old Chanda Musalman.

Conservative and religious Nepal, like many Asian countries, has a sizeable community of people who are born male but behave as women.
It is unclear how this unique legal status will play out in practice - for instance, how it will affect Chanda's marriage rights.


Constitution

With elections approaching, government teams are currently touring the country issuing certificates of citizenship. One team came to Chanda's village in western Nepal. Chanda, who has had no sex-change surgery, asked the officials to erase the words male and female, listed under gender. They obliged, and ascribed Chanda's gender as "both".

A local campaign group, the Blue Diamond Society, has thanked the government for the move, which it described as a victory for sexual and gender minorities. In the past the group has accused both the police and the Maoists of harassing transgendered people in the streets of Kathmandu. It is now lobbying to get the rights of sexual minorities explicitly protected in the new constitution, to be drawn up after the elections.

Photo of Chanda with the certificate (http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42535000/jpg/_42535709_chanda2_203.jpg)

By Charles Haviland
BBC News, Kathmandu

haku
05-02-2007, 17:11
Good for hem.

I think 2 new genders should be officially added to our vocabulary and legal papers, one for people who look/behave/feel female but have male genitals, and one for people who look/behave/feel male but have female genitals.

Rachel
05-02-2007, 17:26
To be honest I think this is political correctness gone too far. You are either one gender or another, I don't think there are two ways about it.

Kyro
05-02-2007, 17:40
I think 2 new genders should be officially added to our vocabulary and legal papers...
I'm not too sure I completely agree with that. I think that if someone looks/behaves/feels male then they should be recognised as male regardless of their genitals, not just recognised as some alternative gender, and the same for female.

Rachel
05-02-2007, 17:42
Exactly. Gender is defined by physical attributes. So if a woman has a sex change she is a man, and visa-versa. I don't like all this "I'm in the middle" shit. To say you are both genders is to say you are not human.

Kyro
05-02-2007, 17:50
Gender is defined by physical attributes. So if a woman has a sex change she is a man, and visa-versa.
I would say that someone is the gender that they feel they are. To me their anatomy is pretty much irrelevent, it's the mind that defines gender. Sex, however, is a different matter. Biologically people are either one sex or the other. Nothing can change that.

Rachel
05-02-2007, 17:54
I would say that someone is the gender that they feel they are. To me their anatomy is pretty much irrelevent, it's the mind that defines gender. Sex, however, is a different matter. Biologically people are either one sex or the other. Nothing can change that.Gender & sex are the same in my opinion. You may "feel" male or female but unless you have *that* between your legs in my opinion you're not. Some people say I have the mind of a guy, but that makes me no more of a guy than any other girl in my opinion.

Khartoun2004
05-02-2007, 17:54
To be honest I think this is political correctness gone too far. You are either one gender or another, I don't think there are two ways about it.

Gender and sex are different. Let's not get them confused. Sex is not as black and white as you are portraying it. It's not either male or female, what about the millions of people in the world that have intersex conditions? People born with ambiguous genitalia are more common than you might think. How would you define them? They don't fit neatly into male or female boxes.

Gender is completely psychological, cultural and emotional. There are more than just two genders, male or female, what about the people that identify as both genders, or those that feel they are a third gender? What about people that feel they have no gender? Then there are the GenderBenders, GenderQueers, ect... How do you define them?

Gender is even more complicated than Sexual Orientation.

I think it's ridiculous to issue a person who feels they are female, even though they are biologically male, two genders on a birth certificate because it is degrading and does not acknowledge their own self definition, no because of it's political correctness. Chanda feels that she is a woman therefore her birth certificate should reflect that she is female and only female. Putting both genders on such an important legal document is just asking for a hate crime to be committed. It's despicable really.

Dj_Volk
05-02-2007, 17:55
So, if a woman feels like a man... her/his gender is female or male? :confused:
Now Im so confussed... i dont know what to do (8)

Khartoun2004
05-02-2007, 18:03
So, if a woman feels like a man... her gender is female or male? :confused:

It's quite that simple. Your Gender is your Psychological, Emotional and Cultural understanding of whether or not you are male, female or something else. Stereotyping has a lot to do with the confusion of gender. A woman who acts more like a man but feels that she is still a woman, is still female. Transsexuals are people that feel they are the opposite sex and also feel trapped in the wrong body. Like some where someone fucked up big time. It's something else entirely.

Some people say I have the mind of a guy, but that makes me no more of a guy than any other girl in my opinion.

It really doesn't matter what other people tell you. If someone thinks you act like a guy, but you feel like a girl... Then you are a girl. Gender is completely up to the individual, not society.

Rachel
05-02-2007, 18:03
Gender and sex are different.I think people have just decided that recently...

what about the millions of people in the world that have intersex conditions? People born with ambiguous genitalia are more common than you might think. How would you define them? They don't fit neatly into male or female boxes.As hermaphrodites, I think that's pretty simple! But as far as the birth certificate goes, I think they should choose the sex on there. But no "both" :rolleyes:

Gender is completely psychological, cultural and emotional. There are more than just two genders, male or female, what about the people that identify as both genders, or those that feel they are a third gender? What about people that feel they have no gender?Confused? LOL Sorry, it's my opinion. And a third gender?! Gimme a break! What is that other gender? Alien? :rolleyes:

In my opinion this really quite silly.

PowerPuff Grrl
07-02-2007, 04:35
I think people have just decided that recently...
No, people have just identified the distinction between sex and gender recently. It has been around for a long time.

Gender is a social construct, it isn't just a distinction between male and female, it is a distinction of what should be male and female, and how. And like all social constructs it has binaries where one binary opposite is more dominant over "the other." In this case male being more dominant than female, especially when considering heterosexuality and the concept of marriage. If I got my Foucault right (which I probably don't) all of this boils down to intercourse. Males are the penetrators and females the penetrated, because of this relation between binary opposites all other relations between the male and female must incorporate the dominant/submissive dynamics. This is how gender is constructed as instructed by the church and until recently governments and psychology. You can see why homosexualty is so troubling to accept because it throws a wrench to the whole thing. Binary opposites would cease to exist not to mention everything else that comes with it. Gay Males would have to occupy the female role of submissive and Lesbians could just buck the whole system because penetration isn't even a requisite.
Not to blame the church for everything, this happened before in Ancient Greece (and Rome probably). Homosexuality did occur but sex segregation was excessive to say the least. Men could fuck each other, as long as they were the fuckers; it wasn't considered taboo. What was taboo was getting fucked, that was only reserved to their slaves. Because getting fucked was considered being female, where a man to be considered female was/is the ultimate shame. There are some cultures which still subscribe to this notion. A man could still be considered straight as long as he's on top in gay sex. This could also give insight as to why straight males react so violently to male gay sex than to lesbian sex. Somebody's has to be the bottom and just the thought of it makes them go nuts (pun intended :p ).

Sex on the other hand is just a biological distinction, but it shouldn't limited to two. Hermaphrodites shouldn't have to be forced to choose one of two genders, they where born that way, who's to say there's anything wrong with them?
And to prove that the male/female choice is limiting to some people and is not universal what do you make of the Hijras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_%28South_Asia%29) and the Two-Spirit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit) people? Both have been in practised and recognized for thousands of years.

PS: My apologies if this is all incoherent, somebody more acquainted to Foucault could perhaps articulate more effectively.
Or just read the History of Sexuality by Michel Foucault. Very, very insightful.

haku
07-02-2007, 05:54
the Hijras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_%28South_Asia%29) and the Two-Spirit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit) people? Both have been in practised and recognized for thousands of years.Yeah, the idea i expressed in my first post came from that actually, well, i didn't know about the native American additional genders but i discovered a long time ago that additional genders existed in some Asian cultures and i've always thought that it was a pretty good idea.

It's interesting how many ancient cultures were rather accepting of alternative genders, even though often confined to sex related occupations. The fact that those "alternative" sexualities were very sought after by the general population is quite revealing in itself, when a religion doesn't impose an artificial taboo on everything that is not heterosexuality, homosexuality and everything in between become much more common practice.

In this regard, it's also interesting to read about the place of homosexual boys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty) in many ancient cultures.
This quote from Roman poet Martial is precious:
Upon being discovered by his wife "inside a boy" and offered the "same thing" by her, Martial retorts with a list of mythological personages who, despite being married, took young male lovers, and concludes by rejecting her offer since "a woman merely has two vaginas."