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haku
03-10-2006, 20:57
Will Bush ever shut up?

Bush says Turkish EU membership is in US interest. (http://euobserver.com/9/22551)

Oh really? Wow. I'm convinced now. :lol:

Seriously, someone should remind this clown that he's not in charge of the EU (not yet anyway). It's up to EU Member States *only* to decide which countries will join or not and 'US interest' has no relevance whatsoever in this decision. This is a blatant and unacceptable interference in EU internal matters, not that Bush has ever had any problem with meddling in other peoples internal matters (though i thought sodomy was illegal in Texas), the guy obviously thinks he's president of the world.
Could the next US president be given a quick geography course so he knows where his jurisdiction ends, that'd be nice.

I think this topic deserves another thread. If any of the mods disagree feel free to reincorporate the discussion into the former thread.

Rachel
03-10-2006, 21:07
Bush says Turkish EU membership is in US interest.Even more reason to not let Turkey join. :mad: He doesn't give a shit about any country other than his own. "Screw others, it's only us that matters." :rolleyes:

freddie
04-10-2006, 02:52
He just said it's in their INTEREST. Which surely it is. That doesn't mean they'll pressure the EU or it's institutions to accept Turkey prematurely. Even if they wanted I don't even believe the US has such a vast diplomatic influence over us.

fanoff
04-10-2006, 13:13
hey im not the one to defend Bush or something but when you are the president of the most powerful country of the world,you are to control others.That was always like that,even before like the Otttoman period or English thingy before the World War 1.Im not for him when he says that either but everyone is allowed to say something,even if its Bush that we are talking about.

freddie
04-10-2006, 17:34
hey im not the one to defend Bush or something but when you are the president of the most powerful country of the world,you are to control others.That was always like that,even before like the Otttoman period or English thingy before the World War 1.Im not for him when he says that either but everyone is allowed to say something,even if its Bush that we are talking about.

I agree with you on that point. She has teh right to say whatever he likes. I just think maybe it's a bit... clumsy to say it, from a diplomatic point of view. Cause many Europeans are very touchy (as they should be!) when it comes to people telling them what to do and many will infact perceive this as him telling us what to do.

the unforgiven
04-10-2006, 17:48
I just think maybe it's a bit... clumsy to say it, from a diplomatic point of view.
yep just a little bit, especially when french president (our famous Jacques Chirac hehe lol) said few days ago that it's important for Turkish to admit they're responsible for the Armenian genocide and that would be better to say it before enter the EU
George W. Bush speech sounds a little bit like that "who cares about what european "rulers" said, it's US interest so step off b*tch" lol (it's too much but it's the idea, understand what I mean? ... now I'm the clumsy one :p )
Plus, today I saw on euronews that Mrs Rice thinks it's better to change the Palestinian government blablalba, omg!! americans are everywhere. Why they don't wanna change government of Israel? not in US interest? and what about the Lebanon's interest, huh?
just to set an exemple, no offense

edit : I know the Palestinian government is not a good one, but it just to show that with acting like that Americans just show that what they're saying should be done, no matter of the others lalalala (and on euronews this morning, nobody mentioned that Europeans are against this government too ... get it?)

Rachel
04-10-2006, 18:11
That doesn't mean they'll pressure the EU or it's institutions to accept Turkey prematurelyAre you really that naive?

but when you are the president of the most powerful country of the world,you are to control others.Nice to see you like a lovely dictatorship :rolleyes: I don't want your Turkish "values" to join us. Sorry!

fanoff
04-10-2006, 18:27
many Europeans are very touchy (as they should be!)

why are they telliing us the things they know we'll never do!!

french president (our famous Jacques Chirac hehe lol) said few days ago that it's important for Turkish to admit they're responsible for the Armenian genocide and that would be better to say it before enter the EU

And thats clumsy to say it too!!!

I don't want your Turkish "values" to join us. Sorry!

i dont really give a shit to this,and i dont give a shit to that one too but Blair does want it badly!:D

the unforgiven
04-10-2006, 18:33
Quote:
Originally Posted by the unforgiven
french president (our famous Jacques Chirac hehe lol) said few days ago that it's important for Turkish to admit they're responsible for the Armenian genocide and that would be better to say it before enter the EU

And thats clumsy to say it too!!!


may be, but it's true
in France, there's demonstration against this genocide made by Turkish people ... Hello, there was a genocide!!
Germany admited the Jewish genocide of WW2, omg!! it seems that they made an error :p
I think it's important to respect all innocent who were killed, stuff like human rights blablabla

crazy malchik
04-10-2006, 18:33
serbia is never going to join EU! :(

fanoff
04-10-2006, 18:44
Hello, there was a genocide!!

Hi,im not the one to talk about it here but there was not a real genocide!(lol the meaning of the word has been declared years after that issue)and there werent 1500000 ppl killed,and the killed ppl was not only Armenians,Turkish people have been killed on their own ground!The western big countries in that age offered the Armenian a government and they were doing bad things to the Turkish ones they lived with peace and silence.They were provoked against us.And the government in that period decided that the armenians move into a place that they cant attack Turkish people.

Rachel
04-10-2006, 18:58
...but Blair does want it badly!:DBlair will be gone by next summer, thankfully :p He's the guy who joined America for an illegal war, his opinion means pretty much zilch in this country at the moment, believe me!

Oh and nice to see Turkish propaganda is still thriving!

fanoff
04-10-2006, 19:06
Blair will be gone by next summer, thankfully He's the guy who joined America for an illegal war, his opinion means pretty much zilch in this country at the moment, believe me!

Oh and nice to see Turkish propaganda is still thriving!

I already said i didnt give a shit to that.Oh and really nice to see people who are judging and stating our membership!

Rachel
04-10-2006, 19:10
I already said i didnt give a shit to that.Oh and really nice to see people who are judging and stating our membership!...but everyone is allowed to say something.So everything is fine unless the opinion is negative, right? :gigi:

haku
04-10-2006, 19:33
Yeah, there was no Armenian genocide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide). :rolleyes: Only the Turks still believe that.

And anyway, when something leads to the death of so many people (1 million as a conservative number), it doesn't really matter if you call it genocide or 'relocation' as the Turks put it, it's still a crime.

A modern democracy should be able to acknowledge crimes commited by former regimes, and obviously Turkey is far from that stage yet. Hell, Turkey still won't even recognize the existence of Cyprus (not to mention withdraw its troups that illegally occupy a part of that country) even though it's now an EU Member, that shows the level of denial and stubbornness that country is capable of.


serbia is never going to join EU!It will eventually, but not anytime soon, maybe somewhere around 2015-2020.

fanoff
04-10-2006, 19:59
So everything is fine unless the opinion is negative, right?


oh no,everyone can speak any word they can put out of their f*cking mouths.i still dont give a shit.

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/index.html visit it!

"Do you believe that any massacres would have taken place if no Armenian revolutionaries had come into the country and incited the Armenian population to rebellion?" I asked Mr. Graves (The British Consul).

"Certainly not" he replied. "I do not believe that a single Armenian would have been killed".

Khartoun2004
04-10-2006, 20:10
My personal opinion on whether or not Turkey will be join the EU anytime in the near future is, only if they change their entire polictical ideology to align themselves with the rest of Europe. Putting aside everything else, the difference in Ideologies is the real reason Turkey will never join the EU. The rest is just bullshit, otherwise the UK wouldn't be members either because the English have always isolated themselves to a certain degree from the rest of Europe, politically and economically.

fanoff
04-10-2006, 20:10
Some of the people who have been killed by Armenians on their duty!!!Do you really think that i am lying?

27.01.1973 Santa Barbara / Consul General Mehmet BAYDAR
Santa Barbara / Consul Bahadır DEMİR
22.10.1975 Vienna / Ambassador Daniş TUNALIGİL
24.10.1975 Paris / Ambassador İsmail EREZ
Paris / Driver Talip YENER
16.02.1976 Beirut / First Secretary Oktar CİRİT

09.06.1977 Vatican City / Ambassador Taha CARIM
02.06.1978 Madrid / Ambassador’s wife Necla KUNERALP
Madrid / Retired Ambassador Beşir BALCIOĞLU
12.10.1979 The Hague / Ambassador’s son Ahmet BENLER
22.12.1979 Paris / Tourism Counsellor Yılmaz ÇOLPAN
31.07.1980 Athens / Administrative Attache Galip ÖZMEN
Athens / Administrative Attaché’s daughter Neslihan ÖZMEN
17.12.1980 Sydney / Consul General Şarık ARIYAK
Sydney / Security Attaché Engin SEVER

04.03.1981
Paris / Counsellor for Labour Affairs Reşat MORALI
Paris / Counsellor for Religious Affairs Tecelli ARI
09.06.1981 Geneva / Secretary M.Savaş YERGÜZ
24.09.1981 Paris / Security Attaché Cemal ÖZEN
28.01.1982 Los Angeles / Consul General Kemal ARIKAN
08.04.1982 Ottawa / Counsellor for Commercial Affairs Kani GÜNGÖR
04.05.1982 Boston / Honorary Consul General Orhan GÜNDÜZ
07.06.1982 Lisbon / Administrative Attaché Erkut AKBAY
27.08.1982 Ottawa /Colonel, Military Attaché Atilla ALTIKAT
09.09.1982 Bourgas / Administrative Attaché Bora SÜELKAN
08.01.1983 Lisbon / Administrative Attaché’s wife, wounded in the armed assault directed against her husband Erkut Akbay on 07 06 1982, died on 08 01 1983 Nadide AKBAY
09.03.1983 Belgrade / Ambassador Galip BALKAR
14.07.1983 Brussels / Administrative Attaché Dursun AKSOY
27.07.1983 Lisbon / Counsellor’s wife Cahide MIHÇIOĞLU
28.04.1984 Teheran / Secretary’s wife Işık YÖNDER
20.06.1984 Vienna / Attaché for Labour Affairs Erdoğan ÖZEN
19.11.1984 Vienna / International Official Enver ERGUN
07.10.1991 Athens / Press Attaché Çetin GÖRGÜ
11.12.1993 Baghdad / Administrative Attaché Çağlar YÜCEL
04.07.1994 Athens / Embassy Counsellor Haluk SİPAHİOĞLU


Athens/Greece

31 July 1980

Turkey’s Athens Embassy Administrative Attaché Galip Özmen and his 14-year-old daughter Neslihan Özmen were killed in an armed attack by a terrorist while his wife Sevil Özmen and son Kaan Özmen survived though seriously wounded. The attack was owned this time by the ASALA.

the unforgiven
04-10-2006, 20:15
Some of the people who have been killed by Armenians on their duty!!!Do you really think that i am lying?

I think nobody says you're a liar ^^
every country in the world had killed people etc etc no need to prove anything
you really think there's no Armenian genocide? ok it's your opinion
if you don't give a shit about what people say, why don't you keep on answering? lol no offense
we can have different opinions, that's all :D

Khartoun2004
04-10-2006, 20:19
Hi,im not the one to talk about it here but there was not a real genocide!(lol the meaning of the word has been declared years after that issue)and there werent 1500000 ppl killed,and the killed ppl was not only Armenians,Turkish people have been killed on their own ground!

yeah ok if there was no "Armenian" genocide, then the Holocaust wasn't genocide based on your reasoning because more than just Jews died. There also wasn't a genocide in Kosovo either. :rolleyes: I'm sorry but your reason dosen't make any sense. The number of people or amount of ethnic groups killed doesn't matter... IT IS STILL GENOCIDE!

They were provoked against us. And the government in that period decided that the armenians move into a place that they cant attack Turkish people.

That still doesn't make it right. The Germans told the world the Holocaust was a "re-location" of the Jews also. It's nothing more than semantics. Call it re-location or whatever you want. Either way it's genocide pure and simple. Oh and by the way, the Darfur genocide was also called a "re-location".

fanoff
04-10-2006, 20:25
if you don't give a shit about what people say, why don't you keep on answering? lol no offense

i said i dont give a shit about what blair say.its not the matter now.hey,do you want to be called a killer and a liar?shit,that hurts much more than an opinion,and thats not the thing you or your grandfathers did. http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/ana5.html you can see the pictures during WW1.

yeah ok if there was no "Armenian" genocide, then the Holocaust wasn't genocide based on your reasoning because more than just Jews died. There also wasn't a genocide in Kosovo either. I'm sorry but your reason dosen't make any sense. The number of people or amount of ethnic groups killed doesn't matter... IT IS STILL GENOCIDE!
im saying there was no intended plan to get the armenians race erased.Turkish people suffered more from Armenians!!YEAH im saying this!!see The Massacres To Turkish People By The Armenians!! (http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/massacres/index.html)

Rachel
04-10-2006, 23:38
That website is full to the brim of Turkish propaganda. I take that website as serious as I do Paris Hilton.

freddie
05-10-2006, 01:41
It's a sad day when people have to revert to such petty excuse as "only 1.5 million people is considered a genocide" or "other nationals were killed as well" to justify attrocities of their own ethnicity. I think accepting one's historical faults and repenting is a true measure of a nation. Unfortunately this is one bitter pill Turkey just won't be able to dodge. It was to blatant to deny. It sends shivers down my spine when someone is semi-justifying the slaughter of a million ethnic Armenians with the fact that their own nationals were killed in the struggle as well. There is NO excuse. Ever.

This coming from me - a person who always supported Turkey's EU ambitions. What's right is right, though. And I don't think they should ever be allowed to join before they take that final plunge and accept their own mistakes. If not then Turkey's membership would be a total mockery of those killed in the attrocitiers.

Not to mention other things should be settled as well. First and foremost, the Cyprus issues. Second - human rights. They're walking a fine line between Arab style represive Islamic culture and the liberal western culture. A few years from now will show which one will prevail. And then the EU membership question will be resolved.

Oh right ... on a side note ... :p

Are you really that naive?

Trust me. The EU is in NO mood to listen to the US at the moment. Especially regarding it's internal issues. There's never been more competing between the two continents as it is now - the traditional western alliance is coming to an end (aside from the strong US-UK relations). Actually I think the EU would do exactly the opposite of what the US is telling them to do, just to piss them off. That's the level of economic and political competitiveness in the air right now.

Khartoun2004
05-10-2006, 01:56
Trust me. The EU is in NO mood to listen to the US at the moment. Especially regarding it's internal issues. There's never been more competing between the two continents as it is now - the traditional western alliance is coming to an end (aside from the strong US-UK relations). Actually I think the EU would do exactly the opposite of what the US is telling them to do, just to piss them off. That's the level of economic and political competitiveness in the air right now.

I totally agree. Bush has absolutely no right to interfer with which country the EU decides to allow admission. I know America would be pissed if the EU tried to interfer with making a US territory a full fledge state, we have no right to order around the EU. I'd say with the latest Republican scandle... Bush won't have unilateral power in the US government much longer... Oh I can't wait for Nov. 7.

Rachel
05-10-2006, 01:58
freddie, I was just watching BBC News 24 and they were talking about corruption in governments. America was 9th if I remember correctly. Don't even forget the power of money ;)

freddie
05-10-2006, 02:57
freddie, I was just watching BBC News 24 and they were talking about corruption in governments. America was 9th if I remember correctly. Don't even forget the power of money ;)

Are you suggesting the US would want to bribe the EU into leading favourable politics for them? They can't afford it. :p EU wants to make it's own riches, not American left-overs and recent market-monopoly trials and scandals proved that clearly. I didn't see any significant continental EU member state condoning the war on Iraq from what I remember.

haku
05-10-2006, 15:00
Yet another example (http://euobserver.com/9/22573) of Turkey being "unreasonable", a delegation from the EU Parliament was supposed to visit Turkey, and Turkey won't allow the trip because one of the MEPs in the delegation is Cypriot. :rolleyes:

There are 2 simple things Turkey must do to come to terms with its dirty military past and finally be able to move forward as a modern country:

1. Withdraw its troups that illegally occupy Cyprus (and therefore the EU) and recognize the full sovereignty of the Cypriot state and the EU over the island.

2. Recognize the Armenian genocide.

Simple, and unavoidable.

Khartoun2004
05-10-2006, 15:52
Yet another example (http://euobserver.com/9/22573) of Turkey being "unreasonable", a delegation from the EU Parliament was supposed to visit Turkey, and Turkey won't allow the trip because one of the MEPs in the delegation is Cypriot. :rolleyes:

There are 2 simple things Turkey must do to come to terms with its dirty military past and finally be able to move forward as a modern country:

1. Withdraw its troups that illegally occupy Cyprus (and therefore the EU) and recognize the full sovereignty of the Cypriot state and the EU over the island.

2. Recognize the Armenian genocide.

Simple, and unavoidable.

I agree with you Haku, but you are also forgetting about Ideologies. The Turks also need to change their ideology, because it is most definitely not "republican" or "liberal".

freddie
05-10-2006, 19:48
I'd be satisfied if they at least recognized the Armenian genocide for what it was. The "Turkish" part of Cyrus is probably lost to Greeks about now - that ship has sailed. Europe didn't show enough decisiveness when it happened initially. It'll only matter on a symbolic level after they join the EU, anyway.

fanoff
05-10-2006, 20:03
How could you be so sure that it happened?you are saying those like you all lived in that period.i can see Armenian Diaspora works smoothly,getting the idea to turn 180 degrees!i should know better what was lived in my ground,not you just reading the books that tell that it happened!

Rachel
05-10-2006, 20:39
How could you be so sure that it happened?you are saying those like you all lived in that period.That is a stupid argument. That is like saying to someone that they can't be sure WWII happened just because they weren't alive then. It's a pathetic idea.

freddie
05-10-2006, 20:59
How could you be so sure that it happened?you are saying those like you all lived in that period.i can see Armenian Diaspora works smoothly,getting the idea to turn 180 degrees!i should know better what was lived in my ground,not you just reading the books that tell that it happened!

So basically you're dismissing pretty much the whole of mankind and a huge majority of historians all over the world, to what? Views of your country? Do you HONESTLY believe Turkish viewpoint is the only one that's absolutely valid and flawless? Eventhough it's pretty clear Turkey will be innately biased when it comes to the topic? Get a grip man. Seriously.

Coincidentally.. wasn't that same rationale the one you used as your argument against the theory of evolution?

fanoff
05-10-2006, 21:25
So basically you're dismissing pretty much the whole of mankind and a huge majority of historians all over the world, to what? Views of your country? Do you HONESTLY believe Turkish viewpoint is the only one that's absolutely valid and flawless? Eventhough it's pretty clear Turkey will be innately biased when it comes to the topic? Get a grip man. Seriously.

Coincidentally.. wasn't that same rationale the one you used as your argument against the theory of evolution?

I am Turkish and Muslim.So,get over me,what a bad mixture!:lol:;)Go believe the erased and rewritten history books and men who study them and get a point that it happened!man what is the main things that were supposed to happen according to them?One time 1 million people killed,oh no,thats too low,then make it 1,5 million.man,that was easy,really easy to call a nation the eraser of another nation!it shouldnt have been told like that!i never want to argue with you over these things,im not thinking about posting to this topic soon,as there are no Turkish Questions for me.So,aske them and make up own answers,without listening.

the unforgiven
05-10-2006, 21:41
fanoff, I don't really know how to react to your post :p

to set an exemple, French had done bad things in history (Algerian war, Petain's government during WW2), and I just said it happened
it's life but our rulers admited it and gave some excuses ... stuff like that

so, do you believe there's no Armenian genocide cuz' for you it's ok to kill 1.000.000 people or just cuz' you're Turkish (talking about the state of mind, but no offense ;) )?
cuz' I really don't understand
you said that history books are bullshit? :confused:

freddie
05-10-2006, 22:02
Yeah cause you know... history books can't even POSSIBLY compare to the all-factual Qur'an, right? No offence to you fanoff, nor to any Muslim out there but do you see the paradox here?

You believe what you want to believe. It's human nature. Every person has his own subjective truth but it just so happens that official world history isn't really a sabotage against the Turks. Because in that case it's also conspired against most nations on the globe, since just about every political entity did SOMETHING wrong at some point in history. But I guess that can't apply to Turks...

fanoff
05-10-2006, 22:23
cuz' for you it's ok to kill 1.000.000 people or just cuz' you're Turkish

hey i got misunderstood here.im not here to keep the discussion going on but i must say they are making up numbers,i dont deny bad things in past,i am just saying that relocation cant be called a genocide as some other intended relocations.We didnt want to kill all the Armenians in the world,shit why should ever we do this?we had not got any hate against them but when they were offered a country in Anatolia(which is now the Asian part of Turkey),they forgot the past in peace and they wanted to kill the Turks over there.We got so many losses,like 30.000 people killed in one day.And the government that period decided to relocate the Armenian temporarily.And on the hard road they had to mess up with Kurds,the nation they got damaged the most!And there were Turkish people killed the but that was sooo low much lower than the Turkish people they (the Armenian)killed man!!!Are we calling it a genocide?No,but the armenians do,in spite of the truth that they killed much more Turkish!!They just want to get the East Anatolia from us,and im not making that up,i saw it on television that was what an Armenian said!so sad,they just making up the story to get some reputation all over the world and get some ground from us.First happened though,because Diaspora works so smoothly,i have to say that.But i doubt if second one happens.That will never happen!

Rachel
05-10-2006, 22:26
You are a lost cause. That's my last post in this thread.

the unforgiven
05-10-2006, 22:45
We got so many losses,like 30.000 people killed in one day.
still not 1.500.000. ... doesn't look like a genocide either :blabla:

and as Rachel said, I guess this is my last post in this thread too
I don't wanna argue and it seems we will never agree, but it's ok to have different opinions
(anymay, mine is better than yours nananana *just kidding, no harm*)

haku
05-10-2006, 23:37
And there were Turkish people killed the but that was sooo low much lower than the Turkish people they (the Armenian)killed man!!!Are we calling it a genocide?No,but the armenians do,in spite of the truth that they killed much more Turkish!!Claiming that much more Turks were killed than Armenians is absolutely ridiculous, if that were true, Turks would have lost the conflict and Armenians would still be living in Eastern Anatolia. Have some common sense!

All historians in the world agree that Armenians were victims of a massive extermination by the Turks, 1 million dead at the very least, and it doesn't matter if those people died during a 'relocation', it's still a crime.

The history of Armenians in Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Turkey) is actually quite similar to that of Jews in Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_in_Poland)… 1.5 million Armenians were living in Turkey before the "events"… There are only 70,000 left today at best… Oops! What happened i wonder?

They just want to get the East Anatolia from usYou do realize that Armenians have been living in Eastern Anatolia since prehistorical times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Armenia) whereas Turks only settled in the area in the 11th century, right? So let's not get confused over who took land to who.

Linda16
05-10-2006, 23:50
This poor guy fanoff is totally brainwashed. I have seen it before in my life in another country. He believes what he has been told. If he starts to doubt after this discussion, it's already an achievement.

fanoff
06-10-2006, 19:16
it's already an achievement.

seems that you will never get that achievement!please let this one be your last post in this thread,as Rachel did!

xmad
06-10-2006, 22:04
Turkey doesnt deserve to be a member of EU yet. They are not what we/you see on TV but they are getting better day by day.They still have to work alot to get to that standards.
Sorry fanoff but it's true.

fanoff
11-10-2006, 13:14
Sorry fanoff but it's true.

There's nothing wrong,i know the situation of my country,i just dont accept the nonsense things used as a threat to us.They just wanna get us frustrated(and they do it so badly),and show the world tha we are just non democratic country like they were in the middle age.

haku
12-10-2006, 16:21
The French parliament has today passed a law (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6043730.stm) making it illegal to deny the Armenian genocide, such a law already exists for the Jewish genocide (this offence is called 'négationnisme' in French).

haku
14-10-2006, 22:33
A memorial for the victims of the Armenian genocide (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6051242.stm) has been stolen near Paris last night, most probably by Turks in retaliation to the law voted by the French parliament a couple of days ago. Killing those people was obviously not enough, now they have to destroy the memorials too, pathetic.

spyretto
15-10-2006, 10:39
The "Turkish" part of Cyrus is probably lost to Greeks about now - that ship has sailed. Europe didn't show enough decisiveness when it happened initially. It'll only matter on a symbolic level after they join the EU, anyway.

You meant to say probably lost to the Cypriots?
Cypriot Greeks is one nation.
Hellenic Greeks is another.
Greece is one country, Cyprus is another country, yeah?
You wouldn't like to know Slovenes were called "Serbs" in Yugoslavia, would you? Or you wouldn't you call a Scot English, correct?

As for the Turkish question, I think all that belongs to the past. But the EU is afraid of the Turks cause they're muslims and that's the bottom line.

freddie
15-10-2006, 17:27
You meant to say probably lost to the Cypriots?
Cypriot Greeks is one nation.
Hellenic Greeks is another.
Greece is one country, Cyprus is another country, yeah?
You wouldn't like to know Slovenes were called "Serbs" in Yugoslavia, would you? Or you wouldn't you call a Scot English, correct?

Yeah but I meant Greek in ethnic terms. Just as both Slovenes and Serbs are Slavic.

As for the Turkish question, I think all that belongs to the past. But the EU is afraid of the Turks cause they're muslims and that's the bottom line.

I think it's afraid of the Turks cause there's loads they could gain from them economically, so they need to be tactful and diplomatic.

spyretto
16-10-2006, 02:20
I think it's afraid of the Turks cause there's loads they could gain from them economically, so they need to be tactful and diplomatic.

They're also afraid of the rapid increase of the population of that country and the fact that they're Asians and not Europeans. They're already concened of the consequences of the recent admittance of Bulgaria and Romania and have taken measures to prevent an influx of immigrants to the other member states as a result of that; imagine what will happen when the 80 million of Turks are free to migrate to the EU country of their choice. Incidentelly they were just 40 million when I was at school :eek:
Apart of a small section in the west Turkey is by and large an Asian muslim country and has all the symptoms of a country as such.
They're delaying their entrance to ensure that the country will become as much moderate and westernised as possible ( and hence less threatening ).

prospector
01-11-2006, 14:37
Armenian Genocide problem is a historical problem.

do you have any historical database about it

if your answer yes, ok, you are right
but if your answer no, you don't have any difference from French parliamenter

i should remind that the french parliament doesn't accept the only law about armenian genocide

this law paper imposes monetary penalties and jail time on anyone who denies that there was an Armenian genocide.

it's a scandal. EU imposes Turkey about the human rights and liberties and then they accept this law paper

i'm a turkish person. i have something about the armenian genocide problem. i think there must be a scientific forum about armenian genocide problem and the historians must discuss about it.

But maybe you don't know that the Armenian side never accept that, i don't know why? do you know why?

now, about Turkey's EU entry process

I think Turkey shouldn't join to EU, must complete negotiations (because we need some transparency in political side and more freedom in economy), but shouldn't join

because EU is crackling, young EU peoples are leaving their country and looking for a chance to run away from their own countries. EU economy is becoming bad...

haku
07-11-2006, 19:29
A first glimpse of the EU commission report on Turkey to be published tomorrow.

Freedom of speech in Turkey is not guaranteed, the military still plays a "significant" political role and non-Muslim religious communities face discrimination, the European Commission is set to say in a report due out Wednesday and seen by EUobserver.

Just over a year after Turkey started membership negotiations with the EU in October 2005, the European Commission will on Wednesday (8 November) release both a specific progress report on Turkey and a general enlargement report which also deals with Ankara's EU accession bid.

A draft version of the general report says that "Turkey has continued to make progress in reforms," but adds that "the pace of reforms has slowed."

"In 2007, it will be important to undertake determined efforts to broaden the reform momentum throughout Turkey," the document says.

The draft progress report – detailing specific policy areas - kicks off with a chapter on Turkey's compliance with the EU's political and human rights standards which according to the commission leaves a lot to be desired.

"The armed forces have continued to exercise significant political influence. Senior members of the armed forces have expressed their opinion on domestic and foreign policy issues," the draft says referring to generals interfering in issues such as Cyprus, secularism and the Kurdish issue.

Further highlighting the uncontrolled role of Turkey's army, the draft continues by stating that "no further progress has been achieved in terms of strengthening parliamentary overseeing of the military budget and expenditure."

'Climate of self-censorship'
The report is highly critical of restrictions on freedom of speech in the EU candidate country – targeting in particular the notorious article 301 of Turkey's recently adopted penal code, which penalises insults against "Turkishness".

"The prosecutions and convictions for the expression of non-violent opinion under certain provisions of the new Penal Code are a cause for serious concern and may contribute to a climate of self-censorship in the country."

"Freedom of expression in line with European standards is not yet guaranteed in the present legal framework," Brussels concludes in the draft, which was however prepared before Turkish leader Recep Tayyip Erdogan over the weekend indicated he is ready to revise article 301.

Brussels in the report welcomes a "downward trend" in the number of cases of torture and ill-treatment but notes at the same time that torture cases are "still being reported, in particular outside detention centres."

The report further says that non-Muslim religious communities "continued to face restricted property rights" while "full respect of women's rights remains a critical problem, particularly in the poorest areas of the country."

Two local TV stations have been allowed to air in the Kurdish language – but they are not allowed to show educational programmes in Kurdish.

No progress on Cyprus
As expected, Brussels has condemned Turkey's continued blocking of trade from EU member state Cyprus.

"Turkey has continued to deny access to its ports to vessels flying the Republic of Cyprus flag or where the last port of call is Cyprus," Brussels notes, adding Ankara's restrictions "infringe the customs union agreement" it signed with the EU.

A passage added to the report after the weekend and cited by the Financial Times said however that Brussels will postpone a recommendation on whether or not to suspend the accession talks because of Turkey's stance on Cyprus - until a later date before an EU leaders summit in December.

Some positive notes
Despite the generally critical tone of the report – with "limited" or "no" progress reported also in the areas of agriculture, the environment and in many internal market-related areas - the commission also has some praise for Turkey.

"Turkey's overall alignment with EU common foreign and security policy has continued," the document says referring to the country's positive role in the Middle East.

As for education and culture, "alignment is nearly complete and overall Turkey is well prepared for accession in this area," according to the draft.

"Education and culture" is among the next negotiating chapters waiting in line to be opened as part of the accession talks – but Cyprus has said it will veto the opening of any new chapter unless Turkey gives in on opening its ports and airports to Cypriot traffic before the end of the year.

EU Observer

haku
08-11-2006, 16:44
An excellent BBC article that explains how Turkey is caught between being ruled by a totalitarian army and islamic fundamentalists, and obviously very unlikely to evolve into a European-style democracy.
Turkish army keeps eye on politicians

The tanks are rumbling through the streets of Istanbul and the crowds are cheering.
Not images from one of the four military coups of the last 50 years, but celebrations for the birthday of the Turkish republic.

Row upon row of sometimes rather baby-faced young men in smart blue uniforms march past, carrying trumpets and drums adorned with the Turkish flag.

Their white helmets and matching spats gleam. Behind them comes a troop of rather harder looking men shouldering assault rifles.

Then the serious stuff. Angular amphibious landing vehicles trundle by. Helicopter gunships whirr out of the sky.

The powerful chug of lines of tanks is drowned out by the scream of fighter bombers overhead.

Above stirring martial music the announcer yells out: "The sun is yours, the earth is yours, the sky is yours, let victory be your most sacred desire!"

'Political force'

It is a reminder that this is one of the largest armies in the world, more than a million people under its command, in Nato second only in size to the world's only superpower.

But it is also a reminder that Turkey's army is not only a potential force on the battlefield - it is a real force in day-to-day politics.

Few adult Turks can see this sight without recalling that the last coup was just nine years ago and was preceded by the coups of 1980, 1971 and 1960.

Senior diplomats say that Turkey has moved beyond coups and the army would only intervene like that if there was a total economic and political meltdown.

But no-one thinks the army is about to give up its political role either.

If the army thinks the politicians are giving in to the rise of political Islam, Kurdish separatists or are betraying northern Cyprus, then the politicians will know about it.

EU concerns

It is true that Turkey's armed forces have swallowed hard in recent years and accepted a reduction in their power - mainly to please the European Union, which on the whole they think is a good, if extremely irritating and naive, thing.

Since 2001, Turkey's national security council has had more elected civilians on its board and the cabinet merely has to "evaluate" that body's decisions, rather than "take them into consideration".

It meets less frequently and the civilian government can now audit military accounts.

This summer laws were revised so that military courts can no longer try civilians.

But these look like mere technical details compared to the EU list of complaints.

In the report being published on 8 November 2006, the European Commission notes that the armed forces exercise "significant political influence", the military has in law "a wide margin of manoeuvre" within "a broad definition of national security".

It concludes that the military should stick to speaking about defence matters and even these statements should only be made under the authority of the government.

General's warning

This is very far from what actually happens.

When the EU condemns the Turkish top brass for making "public statements to influence areas beyond their responsibilities" it could well cite last month's speech by the chief of staff, Gen Yasar Buyukanit.

He said the Turkish republic and its values were "under heavy attack" from "people in the highest positions of government" because they wanted to redefine secularism.

Make no mistake, he does mean the present government. It was elected by a massive majority and is the first party for years that has been able to rule without needing to form a coalition.

It is up for election again next year and expected to win again. It could take the presidency as well.

It was elected promising to bring the headscarf ban to an end, something the majority of the population want.

But it has not been able to do it. From the women affected to fundamentalist agitators, no-one I talk to seems the tiniest bit surprised or even disappointed. They know the army has drawn a red line.

'Army is constitution'

Nearly two weeks after the National Day parade, I am watching a debate in the studios of Crescent TV, an Islamic channel on what is probably the hottest, longest-running topic in Turkey today - the relationship between religion and the state.

Four earnest men around a desk listen as a taped report sets the terms of the debate.

The reporter begins: "It's 83 years since the birth of the Turkish republic and yet we are still governed by a constitution written by soldiers..."

But this perhaps misses the point. In Turkey, the army thinks it is the constitution.

At least, it takes upon it the function of the constitution in many countries, seeing itself as the highest arbiter of the state, making sure that mere democratically elected governments do not stray from the straight and narrow.

Its sacred driving principle is that the sacred should never become a driving principle of the state.

It sees itself as a bulwark against political Islam and what it would regard as surrender to terrorism.

'Post-modern coup'

A retired four-star general, Edib Baser, who now runs the Institute for the Study of Ataturk's Principles and the History of the Republic, sees the state as a building.


"If this building falls down everything... including democracy, freedom of speech, human rights... gets crushed underneath. So the roof has to be strong. The army keeps an eye on it."

It is instructive to look at the1997 coup, which has been called the first "post-modern coup". That is a trendy way of saying the army made clear its displeasure, and events followed without the need for much brute force.

Neither the generals nor their puppets took over but the government resigned and there was a clampdown on political Islam.

Power without responsibility, perhaps, but it is probably more accurate to say the Turkish army feels it has a responsibility but does not actually seek direct power.

All armies, perhaps, have a reverential sense of their own history, but this is especially true in Turkey.

'Hampstead Liberals'

They were the driving force behind the revolution that modernised and westernised the country.

In the young Turkish republic, Kemal Ataturk, an army officer all his life until he became a revolutionary leader, used the army to build the schools and canals and mosques for grateful villagers.

But his conscript army also educated its soldiers, making sure they could read and write before they left its service.

A consequence of this is a rather strange anomaly.

In Turkey, there are liberals in a modern Western sense. But many of those who you would expect to be "Hampstead Liberals" in Britain are here among the strongest supporters of the army.

The controversial artist Bedri Baykam tells me: "This government unfortunately is trying to change every law little by little. It's as though we were trying to enter the Iranian Union, not the EU.

"Turkey is the only Muslim country that has democracy, freedom of speech and an international lifestyle and that is not a coincidence. It's because of Ataturk's ideas and the Turkish army's care and attention."

He has just been on a march in favour of secularism and against the possibility of the headscarf ban being lifted, and adds: "We do not want any military coup d'etat, because that would take us 20 or 30 years backwards. But we also don't want an Islamic coup, because that would take us 1,000 back. Between 30 and 1,000, I would prefer 30."

'Perpetual fear'

Some think that as Turkey changes and becomes more secure as a secular democracy, then the army will become more relaxed about Islamic symbols in the public sphere and slowly relinquish its role.

The army itself sometimes says that is its aim and desire. But it will not be easy.

Professor Hailil Berktay, a historian and expert on the way Turkey sees its own history, tells me: "The army had a semi-colonial mission to the rest of society. And they've never ceased enthusiastically believing that they are the real civilising elite in Turkey."

"They say, 'We are the ones keeping Pandora's box closed and preventing the demons of backwardness, superstition, religious fundamentalism, Kurdish separatism and Armenian nationalism from emerging.' It's this sense of a civilising and protecting mission that drives them."

He adds: "The larger problem is the way the rest of Turkish society has internalised this and lives in perpetual fear of what the military might do."

The real test may come next year, when Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan may decide to run for president.

If he does and wins, the thought of a man whose wife wears a headscarf living in the presidential palace, a man who was once imprisoned for words thought to represent militant Islam, occupying the role that Ataturk first held, may be too much for some officers to bear.

Then again, if these things come to pass and the sky does not fall in, they may start to relax a little and keep the moaning for the army mess table.

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6122878.stm)

fanoff
10-11-2006, 21:59
With thanks to Queenbee and Haku for changing the title

a pic(to see how royal he is) (http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/9206/ataturk01yd2.jpg)

68 years ago today,the founder of the new Turkish Republic,Mustafa Kemal Atatürk died.It was a big loss of the whole world as he is a big supporter of world peace.Nobody like him came to the world after him.Among the great leaders of history, few have achieved so much in so short period, transformed the life of a nation as decisively, and given such profound inspiration to the world at large.His achievements in Turkey are an enduring monument to Atatürk

coolasfcuk
10-11-2006, 22:45
With thanks to Queenbee and Haku for changing the title

a pic(to see how royal he is) (http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/9206/ataturk01yd2.jpg)

sorry, but he looks like an angry criminal in that pic!

Argos
10-11-2006, 22:58
sorry, but he looks like an angry criminal in that pic!
No, only heartburn!

fanoff
10-11-2006, 22:59
there were about 60 presidents and 30 kings in that ceremony and i think the most spottable one is undoubtfully is Atatürk,the others were just looking,with nothing special.It shows the charisma of him obviously and his presence is awesome in that.

forre
11-11-2006, 00:13
and i think the most spottable one is undoubtfully is Atatürk
So where exactly on the picture is he?

Argos
11-11-2006, 00:30
So where exactly on the picture is he?
If I'm not totally wrong, he is the fourth from the right, sitting at the backside of the table, the evil looking guy behind the first bowl of grapes.

QueenBee
11-11-2006, 00:36
I think it is him too as the picture is mostly of that part of the room and only two of the men sitting down are visible, the one to the right seems to be the most noticeable.

Although it would be funny if it was the little bigger man to the left, with the different outfit. :p

I wonder if forre was being sarcastic, though.

This is him apparently (http://www.byegm.gov.tr/YAYINLARIMIZ/kitaplar/FMD/images/0002.jpg)

I found some info on wikipedia that I liked:
The leading legal reforms instituted by Mustafa Kemal included the complete separation of government and religious affairs and the adoption of a strong interpretation of the principle of laïcité in the constitution. This was coupled with the closure of Islamic courts and the replacement of Islamic canon law with a secular civil code modeled after Switzerland and a penal code modeled after the Italian Penal Code. The reforms also included the recognition of the equality between the sexes and the granting of full political rights to women on December 5, 1934.

Argos
11-11-2006, 01:00
A strong-willed man who lived for his visions without compromise, not even with his liver.

haku
20-01-2007, 00:12
Armenian journalist Hrant Dink was murdered (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6279241.stm) in Turkey, it seems the Turkish regime has been inspired by Putin's way of getting rid of annoying journalists.

freddie
20-01-2007, 12:01
Armenian journalist Hrant Dink was murdered (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6279241.stm) in Turkey, it seems the Turkish regime has been inspired by Putin's way of getting rid of annoying journalists.

That's a pretty obscure possibility...

EDIT:

There we go (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/01/21/turkey.dink/index.html)

haku
02-02-2007, 22:46
The man who murdered Armenian journalist Hrant Dink was treated like a national hero (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6323887.stm) by the Turkish police officers who arrested him, proudly posing with him holding the national flag.
That tells a lot, and that's another nail in the coffin of Turkey's EU membership.

fanoff
28-02-2007, 23:41
The man who murdered Armenian journalist Hrant Dink was treated like a national hero by the Turkish police officers who arrested him, proudly posing with him holding the national flag.



haha,the professional associating that video with the EU membership thingy made my night,sorry i was away for a month and im finally back,with the propaganda of my government(as you say).The video is shot but by another reason,to calm the boy down(cause he is just 16) and make him trust the policemen,to me, calling it as another nail is just nothing but showing the prejudgement about us Turkish people in "some" European countries one more time.Samast(the boy) is not a national hero or something,if its not true i must be living in another country.

fanoff
12-03-2007, 18:04
The Greek-Turkish issue has come over Youtube!!!Thats whats hot in both countries!

Greek videos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szvZlfBToi8&mode=user&search=)

Turkish videos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHloZv5skRo)

freddie
13-03-2007, 19:06
The Greek-Turkish issue has come over Youtube!!!Thats whats hot in both countries!

Greek videos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szvZlfBToi8&mode=user&search=)

Turkish videos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHloZv5skRo)

Patriots on both sides seem to be real champions of grammar. :p

fanoff
14-04-2007, 15:20
The Republic Meeting took place in the capital Ankara with near a million people before the beginning of the procession of selecting the next Turkish President.It is likely to be Recep Tayyip Erdoğan,the current Prime Minister,who is also the leader of his conservative party.And this could be a big answer to "some members" who think th Turkish people are being brainwashed by the government.

Click here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6554851.stm)

Here are some pictures from the meeting.
1 (http://galeri.milliyet.com.tr/2007/4/14Cumhuriyet_Mitingine_onbinlerce_kisi_katildi/5.jpg)
2 (http://galeri.milliyet.com.tr/2007/4/14Cumhuriyet_Mitingine_onbinlerce_kisi_katildi/6.jpg)
From Anıtkabir (http://galeri.milliyet.com.tr/2007/4/14Cumhuriyet_Mitingine_onbinlerce_kisi_katildi/48.jpg)