Migration :: Your opinions [Archive] - Unofficial forum of group TATU

Anouk

12-04-2006, 19:49

Decided to make a new thread of this as we're going totally off-topic. Posts originated from this (http://forum.tatysite.net/showthread.php?t=10201) thread.

I don't want to say.. I'm sorry.. But if you want to figure it out, the first game of my country at the World Cup 2006 in Germany is played against her native country.. That's all I'm saying about this.. I'm done :p

How can you hate politics? Politics is in every thing you do.

I'm not talking about that.. I'm talking about those stupid morons in our government.. The people who thinks is funny to raise insurance with a minimum of 50% while not increasing peoples' paychecks.. I'm talking about the dumbasses who voted yes to introducing the euro, which then lead to that same euro destroying our economy, causing many families to not have enough money left to buy food, let alone clothes and other things.. I'm talking about the people who want to open up our borders to people from eastern european countries so they can work here because they are much cheaper than Dutch people, which makes a lot of Dutch people lose their jobs.. No offense to people from eastern europe, they're just trying to make a living too, but I've been born and raised in this country and I've been trying to find a job ever since the euro was introduced, working crappy partttime jobs in the meantime, it's damn hard!! The place I work parttime at right now, there are many MANY Polish people working there fulltime.. They're taking our jobs and I'm not agreeing with it!!!!! How am I ever going to pay for the insurance they raised with 50% if they're giving away our jobs?!

Rachel.. Please stop commenting and questioning everything I say, trying to make me look stupid..

Rachel

12-04-2006, 19:51

Oh that's different - politicians and policies then :)

Ahh, I get you now! :yes:

BTW, Lots of Polish people here too, they're not stopping any British people finding any jobs though :no: They often do jobs British people wouldn't wanna do.

QueenBee

12-04-2006, 19:55

there are many MANY Polish people working there fulltime
Damn us Poles, we're freaking everywhere!

There are *lots* of Polish people here in Sweden working (crappy jobs, crappy enviorment, crappy pay - but better than in Poland) and now I hear they are in Holland too...

KellyJ

12-04-2006, 19:59

In Canada its the same thing. We have the Chinese ppl selling their products cheaper here so its putting under all our business. Ford Canada is closing a lot of doors cause it is cheaper to make the products from china.

Rachel

12-04-2006, 20:04

Anouk

12-04-2006, 20:07

^ There's some sort of crisis with cars here too.. I don't know what's it's exactly about though.. We don't have that much Chinese here, but a lot of companies are moving their crap to Poland and Czech Republic etc because it's so much cheaper there, they don't give a crap about the Dutch people who are left without a job here.. And all politicians do is yell that it's going better with Holland and bla bla.. Those jerks should come live in the real world for a few months instead of sitting in their fancy leather chairs, and then rethink the bullsh*t they keep on blabbering :rolleyes:

Damn us Poles, we're freaking everywhere!

There are *lots* of Polish people here in Sweden working (crappy jobs, crappy enviorment, crappy pay - but better than in Poland) and now I hear they are in Holland too...

There are loads here right now.. You can't go on the highway over here without seeing white license plates with the PL next to it :none: One even cut me off today :o Or was that a Dane? So many white license plates in Europe!! But they can't drive either though :p

coolasfcuk

12-04-2006, 20:07

I don't want to say.. I'm sorry.. But if you want to figure it out, the first game of my country at the World Cup 2006 in Germany is played against her native country.. That's all I'm saying about this.. I'm done
you dont want to say, but you said anyway? My gut reaction was saying Serbia, but for some reason i hoped it was Bulgaria ... then it would've been more fun. :gigi: i'll leave it to the serbians around here for now...

I'm talking about the people who want to open up our borders to people from eastern european countries so they can work here because they are much cheaper than Dutch people, which makes a lot of Dutch people lose their jobs.. No offense to people from eastern europe, they're just trying to make a living too, but I've been born and raised in this country and I've been trying to find a job ever since the euro was introduced, working crappy partttime jobs in the meantime, it's damn hard!! The place I work parttime at right now, there are many MANY Polish people working there fulltime.. They're taking our jobs and I'm not agreeing with it!!!!! How am I ever going to pay for the insurance they raised with 50% if they're giving away our jobs?!
well, by all you've said so far, you are very bitter towards Eastern Europeans. :heh: dont even have time or energy to get involved with all this, but... seems like you arent qualified for 'your jobs' if you cant get them ... can't just blame the eastern europeans

QueenBee

12-04-2006, 20:20

Oh come on people, stop being xenophobic, everyone is human and has a basic instinct to survive. If you were from Poland or China are you telling me you wouldn't go to another country if that meant you would have a better life?
I don't know if I was included in that Rach, but just wanted to mention that I didn't mean it like that. Just kind of surprised that there are people from my country in Holland too.

@ Anouk: The companies are just doing what will be better for them. If they can set up their business for cheaper in another country, pay less, and have looots of people working for them, then they will. They want money, and couldn't care less about the people.

KellyJ

12-04-2006, 20:20

Im not sure how many plants in the states have closed but I think even GM has closed 16 plants cause of this. Right now Ford here in London Canada is in talks about closing their doors. You know these big industrys are horrible. When a guy is having a stroke or heartattack on line they get mad if workers stop to help the guy cause that means the line shuts down and the company is loses money. So is that really what a persons life is worth to these places. Oh its okay if you have worked there for 30yrs they appreciate that but if you die on the line your an a..hole cause now the company lost money from stopping the line to help you.
Im not complaining that the chinese are making things cheaper. I mean where would I be without Dollarama :D and plus I would drive a Honda Civic anyday over a canadian/american made car. (although I drive a mustang) Im just saying that what is going to happen to our economy if this keeps happening.

Rachel

12-04-2006, 20:21

I don't know if I was included in that Rach, but just wanted to mention that I didn't mean it like that. Just kind of surprised that there are people from my country in Holland too..Noooooo, that wasn't aimed at you my little Queenie!! :heart:

haku

12-04-2006, 20:24

EU citizens are EU citizens, they can live and work anywhere they want within the EU, that's the whole point, no internal borders. What people need to do is stop thinking that another European is a 'foreigner', they are not, they are another EU citizen, just like you.

QueenBee

12-04-2006, 20:26

Awwww, Rachel, you make my little heart happy! :rose:

well, by all you've said so far, you are very bitter towards Eastern Europeans
Also, remember that Tatu are eastern europeans... so some of us are not that bad, we're actually quite hot. :p

Anouk

12-04-2006, 20:29

you dont want to say, but you said anyway? My gut reaction was saying Serbia, but for some reason i hoped it was Bulgaria ... then it would've been more fun. :gigi: i'll leave it to the serbians around here for now...

I left a hint.. You never heard me say anything..

well, by all you've said so far, you are very bitter towards Eastern Europeans. :heh: dont even have time or energy to get involved with all this, but... seems like you arent qualified for 'your jobs' if you cant get them ... can't just blame the eastern europeans

I'm not bitter against eastern europeans.. If I was, why would I be on this forum which revolves around eastern european girls? I'm not attacking eastern europeans either, I'm attacking the politicians who make it so easy for them to work here, while they really should take care of the people who actually live in the country they are supposed to work for.. And I am qualified for the jobs I applied for, they always find a reason not to hire me.. I'm too expensive.. :rolleyes:

Ok, coming back to the first thing I quoted from you.. I am "attacking" a few eastern europeans, but only because they hurt me personally.. I would do just the same if they were German or English or American or whatever :rolleyes:

EU citizens are EU citizens, they can live and work anywhere they want within the EU, that's the whole point, no internal borders. What people need to do is stop thinking that another European is a 'foreigner', they are not, they are another EU citizen, just like you.

So I'm supposed to go to Poland or Czech Republic or wherever and work for scratch while they come over here and cash in my paycheck? I don't think so :rolleyes: If they want no borders, they should raise the pay to the same level everywhere!!

Also, remember that Tatu are eastern europeans... so some of us are not that bad, we're actually quite hot. :p

True, true.. My ex was damn hott, lol!! And not to mention Yulia and Lena and this actress/public figure here in Holland who is actually from Ukraine.. Her name's Victoria Koblenko and she's smokin' :cool:

Rachel

12-04-2006, 20:39

Were you ok about you ex working in Holland? :p

Anouk

12-04-2006, 20:42

She doesn't work or live here actually.. She's in Australia..

Rachel

12-04-2006, 20:47

Did you meet her? :bum:

And she's in Australia, hey? Another well-off country. How do you feel about Eastern Europeans moving there?!

Anouk

12-04-2006, 20:53

Yes I met her.. In Munich of all places actually :p She has an aunt living there..

I don't live in Australia, I don't deal with it (not anymore anyway) so why should I have an opinion.. What should I feel about them moving there? It doesn't affect me.. I don't have a problem with people migrating, as long as they are willing to adapt to the place they're migrating too.. And many many people (here) are not willing to do that..

Rachel

12-04-2006, 21:02

I don't live in Australia, I don't deal with it (not anymore anyway) so why should I have an opinion.Because her living there is no different to Eastern Europeans in Holland.

It doesn't affect me.. I don't have a problemAs long as it's not in my back garden :lol:

I don't have a problem with people migrating, as long as they are willing to adapt to the place they're migrating too.. And many many people (here) are not willing to do that..Like have Dutch number plates?!!! :lol: :lol:

Anouk

12-04-2006, 21:08

Omigawd Rachel, you are like so funny :rolleyes:

There is a difference.. There's space, economics, etc.. :rolleyes: I don't know the last time you had a look on a world map, but Australia is a bit bigger than Holland.. And we're packed here :rolleyes:

QueenBee

12-04-2006, 21:35

Eastern Europeans don't go to these places because they actually have always dreamed about moving.. They go there because they need the money to support their family. I don't know how rich/poor Holland is, but I bet it's richer (or used to be) than any of the countries of the eastern europeans that move there...

These people are desperate for money, I mean it's not like they are business men traveling around the world, they're actually (usually) pretty poor people, at least if you compare to west europe. I'm sure they're not too thrilled about being there either. :rolleyes:

They showed on the news last year some Polish people who were working here ilegally. They came here because they had a difficult life in Poland and could hardly pay for their food (LOL I'm making Poles seem like some poor-ass people, sorry). So they came here to build things, and got a very lousy paycheck. They had very long days (12-18 hours) and they lived in an abandoned train.

spyretto

12-04-2006, 21:51

Migration, my opinion: Absolutely wonderful. It's time we gave something back to the people we were stealing from in the first place.

forre

12-04-2006, 21:58

Migration is a natural thing. Swedes moved to the States, Russians moved to Israel, Israeli moved to Germany, Germans moved to Austria, Vietnamese moved to Russia, Polish moved to Sweden! Yeah!

I have a Polish doctor here and I'm thanking God every time I need a dr. appointment because Swedish doctors are simply dumb. Kill me, but they are!

Okay, aside of all those silly examples, I got to say that immigration is a natural thing for survival purposes. It's ruled by our nature. Then, migration is a bless for small countries with native population. I mean some countries of 5 millions people, marrying each other? I don't think there's a lot of future in that.

spyretto

12-04-2006, 22:00

well, even the Swedes migrated to Sweden, didn't they? The Greeks to Greece, the Polish to Poland etc.

Anouk

12-04-2006, 22:03

And they all inhabited that particular piece of land for a reason ;) So why must they all deny their ancestors wishes and move away? :p j/k

spyretto

12-04-2006, 22:10

And they all inhabited that particular piece of land for a reason ;) So why must they all deny their ancestors wishes and move away? :p j/k

Well, it's more or less like this: We export our trash there, they have nothing to export cause we took it all from them in the first place, so they export people. Makes perfect sense to me.

zebu

12-04-2006, 23:01

ppl who move out r usually ppl that r uber poor and havent managed to create a normal life in their country, cos theyre not capable or smthing i guess the reasons r diff for each. mostly they give their native coutry bad reputation. im mostly talking bout ppl that i see move out of my country and see them when they come back for holidays. its usually ppl from villages, with not much education and no manners. they usually go there to clean or smthing like that

worst part of it is that ppl from countries they go to then think all the ppl from our country r like this.:rolleyes:

forre

12-04-2006, 23:07

ppl who move out r usually ppl that r uber poor and havent managed to create a normal life in their country
Sorry to say but it's a little bit of a complete bs. I'll explain why. Many countries require some achievement before you can apply for a resident visa or you got to have money to be able to have a decent start in another country. I can't call all those people poor and not able creating good life in their own country.

spyretto

12-04-2006, 23:15

...not to mention that the top capitalist countries are nowadays targetting the most able people from developed countries, provide them with university scholarships etc., basically recruiting them to work for them.

Just think of the population of China and India...and their best people working for the interests of the U.S., Britain and others.

zebu

12-04-2006, 23:22

Sorry to say but it's a little bit of a complete bs. I'll explain why. Many countries require some achievement before you can apply for a resident visa or you got to have money to be able to have a decent start in another country. I can't call all those people poor and not able creating good life in their own country.

i dont know what achievements have thousands of ppl that moved from here to germany, one goes and bunch of them follow thats how it went and still goes on. and i didnt say all, but most for sure. ;)

forre

12-04-2006, 23:27

zebu, You maybe spoke on a small scale moving to a neighbour country. We are speaking on a global scale. So do you say that poor Croatians moved to Germany without a penny in the pocket or what? I was translating for a soccer player from Croatia a couple of years ago to get a contract with a Swedish club and he wasn't doing that bad in his own country either. I live in a "right" country and I see all those "poor" immigrants. 90% of them had enough money in their own country.

freddie

12-04-2006, 23:32

As some of you may know I'm planning to immigrate to USA or (more than likely) Canada in a matter of a few years. And I agree with the notion that it isn't an easy task to do. First of all you need to make a hell of a lot of money in your native country before you could even think of immigrating, not to mention the immigration laws are ridiculously strict for an average Joe like me.... so really poor and uneducated poor people are counted out by default. I'm not planning to immigrate for economic reasons (Slovenia is doing well enough in that department and I could probably live relatively better in Slovenia in a few years than I will in my adopted country.) My reason is purely cultural: I want to experience some cultural diversity. It's not exactly stimulating to be surrounded with 95% white slavic people all the time (not that there's anything wrong with white slavic people, but I like all people... I need diversity).

A funny story a lady at the immigration office told me a while back, while I was gathering info. She was of course "off the record". She said that when I apply I should have greater chances just because I'm a caucasian European, especially in certain provinces like Alberta or British Columbia. Why? As she explained it those provinces are starting to "swim in yellow", so the goverment approved an incognito program that favours Euro-caucasian immigration. Gotta love immigrational racism, huh? Scary.

coolasfcuk

12-04-2006, 23:44

zabu described part of the issue, forre another - both are true when it comes to people from Eastern Europe. I am an immigrant from eastern europe and i surely am not a village person without education :rolleyes: in fact I am being paid money to go to school here, rather than paying to go (excuse the not so modest reply) ... but i have also seen the gypsies who illegaly fleed from bulgaria to the west. The difference is - legal and illegal ... how many and what jobs can all the illegals get?
and the example above is about Polish in Holland - well Poland is in the EU now so they can get 'your' job :heh: and that's RIGHT, if you arent happy and cannot get a job 'cause you're 'too expensive' well, honey, just go to Poland! dont worry, you will NOT have to pay 50% more taxes :heh: in fact, everything will be cheaper ... oh wait, you most likely have no idea what it means to immigrate - let me tell you, it is not for everyone ;)
edit: freds added nice reply while i was yping as well. go for it, freds and good luck! That's one of my fav things in the USA - a lot more diversity than anywhere ive been in Europe

Lux

13-04-2006, 04:56

don't we live in a civilized enough world where the word "migration" is not only archaic but left alone?

the problem of cultural preservation is heightened in eastern europe because of the close proximity of its countries and also because of how much turmoil they have gone through. that is, countries of eastern europe have not only survived wars, they have also survived political and cultural clashes. it's understandable that many of the natives want to preserve and adhere to their heritage and their culture because of the unrest they've experienced culturally and politically. those two things provide a kind of attachment to something deeper than just boundaries, laws, and a governing body. they also create an identity that is important to how people are raised and how they view the world. on the other hand, parts of the world are rapidly integrating and people are more eager to get out and experience something new. it's a clashing of times, because while history is important, so is diversity.

QueenBee

13-04-2006, 05:43

the problem of cultural preservation is heightened in eastern europe because of the close proximity of its countries and also because of how much turmoil they have gone through. that is, countries of eastern europe have not only survived wars, they have also survived political and cultural clashes. it's understandable that many of the natives want to preserve and adhere to their heritage and their culture because of the unrest they've experienced culturally and politically. those two things provide a kind of attachment to something deeper than just boundaries, laws, and a governing body. they also create an identity that is important to how people are raised and how they view the world. on the other hand, parts of the world are rapidly integrating and people are more eager to get out and experience something new. it's a clashing of times, because while history is important, so is diversity.
Holy crap, I'm not intelligent enough to read that (or maybe just too tired...). :eek: You got some mad skillz in writing, Lux.

spyretto

13-04-2006, 06:03

Saw the exact same excerpt posted on wikipedia.com...juuust kidding ;)

QueenBee

13-04-2006, 06:18

Anouk, what jobs exactly are you talking about here? Because if you have alot of Polish people coming in at once, "stealng" your jobs, then I imagine those are no classy jobs, more like, what, construction builders? Cleaning? Most Polish people who come to work in other countries because it pays less are generally a bit older (I'm just judging from what I've seen) - the students are busy studying, so to say, and have no time to move in order to work (for that only reason) and generally older Poles don't speak English very well, so that's why I get the feeling that there are not there for any high class jobs. I mean, what would they do? Can't run a cash register - they don't speak the language...

Sorry if I misunderstood, or if I'm speaking out of my ass, maybe you would very much like to be building houses all day.

If they want no borders, they should raise the pay to the same level everywhere!!
But that doesn't apply when it means lowering yours, right?

Anouk

13-04-2006, 10:32

But that doesn't apply when it means lowering yours, right?

They can't just start lowering pay anyway.. You'll get huge strikes and shit, no one will agree, not just me.. Besides, it's already tough to survive here on minimumwage because they keep raising prices for insurance and utilities, etc.. Some people have around 40 euro's left a week to buy food and clothes, which is also very hard because grocery prices went up like 40 to 50% when the euro came.. If they cut our paychecks, it'll mean Holland's downfall :rolleyes:

QueenBee

13-04-2006, 10:41

They can't just start lowering pay anyway..
They can't just raise them either. First of all I don't think there is any money (I mean, I know the huge companies are rich... but I hardly think they would want to share :p) and besides, if everyone suddenly gets lots of money it will lead to inflation (I think this is what it's called in English? Sorry, I'm not sure.. :/ ) I think.

I think everybody would agree with you to raise everyone's paycheck, but to actually think that would happen, I believe that's called living in a dream... The companies are doing fine now as far as I know, besides they have people who are willing to work for them so why should they (the companies) care? They've got their money in their bank accounts and a good place in their leather seats. :laugh:

I totally agree with you that the taxes are too high! Even here in Sweden..

As you said, it's tough to survive on minimumwage, that's one of the reasons to why people go elsewhere to work, where they can get paid more than their country's "standard".

I guess life is what it always has been; some people simply have it good while others have it not so good. I guess you need to work harder than ever to get something better (or we're just complaining more because we're used to our comfortable lives). Let's just remind ourselves we are quite lucky, I mean, obviously we have enough money to pay for Internet. ;)

Anouk

13-04-2006, 10:54

I know they just can't start raising pays aswell.. But these politicians keep going on and on about 1 Europe, bla bla.. Well, if they want it to be more like 1 big state or whatever, they should do something to also make it feel like it's one state and have the same things everywhere, at least when it comes to work, because obviously, if borders are open for everyone, they all would want to work where you earn most.. And since Holland is one of those countries with the highest minimum wage in Europe, they're all coming here.. It's inevitable and I think it'll blow up for the worse soon, and since I'm an actual resident here, I'll (and other residents) will be left with all the crap while the people who came here to work, can just go somewhere else because they're no strings attached for them..

coolasfcuk

13-04-2006, 13:12

nath

13-04-2006, 13:27

I understand and respect migration, even for economical reasons. I have nothing against it.

But I will be frank, I'm absolutely upset by people who chose to migrate to a country and spend their time in treating it as a sh*t and are, in a constant way, agressive towards this chosen country.
Nothing new...told it before. :)

haku

13-04-2006, 14:05

Well, i've said it before as well, i am actually opposed to any more immigration from outside the EU, but EU citizens moving within the EU is a totally different matter, they are not 'immigrants', there are no internal borders and EU citizens are free to live and work wherever they want, and i have absolutely no problem with that, i welcome it, the more EU people will be mixed, the better.

And of course the level of life (and therefore prices, salaries, etc.) is lower in the new 8 eastern EU members, but it won't last forever! This is a transitional period and the new EU members will be brought to EU standards progressively, the developement in those countries is already going at a fast pace. The same thing happened when Ireland, Spain or Portugal joined the EU over 20 years ago, those countries had a much lower level of life than older EU members (and Spain and Portugal, just like the new eastern EU members, just went out of dictatorial regimes), and believe me (i was there!) some people were saying the same thing about those countries than what some people are saying today about the new eastern EU members.
But 20 years later, those countries are totally on a par with the rest of the EU, and the same thing will happen with the new eastern EU members. In 20 years, Poland or Hungary will be just as rich as any other average EU member and prices/salaries will have been leveled with the rest of the EU.

marina

13-04-2006, 14:10

I'm afraid it's fruitless dispute. Migration can be blessing for someone and curse for others , it depends who migtrates , where , why....

spyretto

13-04-2006, 14:14

with all due respect to your knowledge haku, Ireland joined the EU ( then EC ) back in 1973, while Spain and Portugal in 1986...knew there was a bit of a gap there

QueenBee

13-04-2006, 14:16

But I will be frank, I'm absolutely upset by people who chose to migrate to a country and spend their time in treating it as a sh*t and are, in a constant way, agressive towards this chosen country.
Same here, it disgusts me.
Honestly though, most people like that are from outside of Europe.
Hmm, maybe I'm a bit of a racist, then.

xmad

13-04-2006, 14:36

most people like that are from outside of Europe.
I dont know maybe you're right or maybe not.
Migration??why not.I will do my best not to go back to my country.people like me have no right in my country.All they can do is just hiding everything.As far as I know almost all my friends are trying to move somewhere else.

Anouk

13-04-2006, 14:46

Anouk, do you read what you say? I mean seriously ... somehow it is really hard for me to feel sympathy for you as many of my friends back home are making something similar to 100-200 euro a month TOTAL (meaning prior to spending a cent of it) and a lot of the prices aren't that different from EU prices (of course it is cheaper in general, but the ratio is not proportionate). Oh yeah, and my grandma's pension is something like 40 euro for the WHOLE month ... thank god she lives with my aunt and uncle ...

Yes I do read what I write down.. Maybe you should try thinking outside of your little box, and stop trying to go against everything I say, because there is truth to what I'm trying to get across.. Yeah, we do make more money here in Holland, but I have to pay close to 150 euro's a month just for insurance!! I know about minimum wages in other countries, but the price of life isn't as high over there as it is here.. If I were to move out, I'd have to pay around 500 euro's for a crappy one bedroom appartment, a month!! So yeah, we do make a lot more than let's say in Czech Republic, but its not like that in the end there's all that much left.. We struggle to make our ends meet aswell..

About the pension - by the time I am that old and get my pension, there won't be anything left because the government gives it to immigrants who don't feel like working..

you didnt say what kind of work you were looking for anyway ... someone mentioned earlier, lots of the immigrants get the not so 'desired' positions ... and if it is a job for which qualifications and education/experience is required, well, whose fault is it that you arent matching the criteria? The survival of the fittest .... .

I shouldn't have to matter what job I'm looking for.. It's none of your damn business anyway what I do in my private life.. But because of immigrants and stuff, many Dutch people lose their jobs because we're more expensive that foreigners.. It's not just me I'm talking about..

coolasfcuk

13-04-2006, 14:55

QueenBee

13-04-2006, 15:00

I dont know maybe you're right or maybe not.
I think it's a difference in cultures.

Also the fact that many people, at least where I live, who came from outside of Europe came from very bad conditions. For example they had just survived a war, and they don't get any help either to fix their emotional problems. Not so strange that they get very aggressive. Suppressed emotions, I think.

But of course there are exceptions, some people are just dumb. Some people from outside of Europe are great, too.

I shouldn't have to matter what job I'm looking for..
Do you actually expect to be able to get every single job out there? I mean, I know what you were trying to say, that immigrants even get the simple jobs that "should" go to the Dutch people because it's their country. Somehow the immigrants survive on even a lower pay than you would want... And I surely don't hear them complaining.

I hope you will get a good education, and least that's what I'm planning to do... 'cause I personally don't want to be in a competition over lousy jobs for the rest of my life.

Anouk

13-04-2006, 15:15

well, Anouk, heil Dutch! Kill all the fucking immigrants and get rid of your problem then! :hooligan: that's about all i can say ....

oh and lastly: i paid the same for insurance when i was self employed the last couple of years :heh: and not to mention that for 500 euro a month you can get JACK SHIT where I live (aka the San Frarncisco Bay Area), so concider yourself 'lucky' :laugh: One bedroom apartments start over a 1000

Well aren't you Americans just so special then :rolleyes: Isn't is heil America?!

BTW - Heil Dutch? That doesn't make sense.. So what are you worshipping? Our language? Because thats Dutch.. The people? Because if so, you should say "heil the Dutch" and my country is Holland or the Netherland, in that case it would be "heil Holland" or "heil the Netherlands".. So you'll get it right next time ;)

I don't live in Amsterdam, but I'm pretty sure you have to pay around 1000 euro's for an appartment there aswell :rolleyes: That's the way it is in large cities like that, in case you never noticed..

Do you actually expect to be able to get every single job out there? I mean, I know what you were trying to say, that immigrants even get the simple jobs that "should" go to the Dutch people because it's their country. Somehow the immigrants survive on even a lower pay than you would want... And I surely don't hear them complaining.

When did I say that? Nothing I said even implied that I expected to get any job I wanted :rolleyes:

For your information.. There is this campagne going on so that foreign people will recieve the same pay as we do.. So they have been complaining, in the contrary to what you've said, otherwise it wouldn't be such an issue right? I actually do hope that it'll be enforced so they'll make the same amount as we do, if so, there is no reason to hire foreign people because they're not cheaper anymore..

Rachel

13-04-2006, 15:33

BTW, CAF isn't American ;)

coolasfcuk

13-04-2006, 15:39

Well aren't you Americans just so special then :rolleyes: Isn't is heil America?!
I dont know, I am not offcially American yet - I am one of those Eastern Europeans that you wanna get rid of :heh: .. an immigrant, taking all the American jobs and so on ...

BTW - Heil Dutch? That doesn't make sense.. So what are you worshipping? Our language? Because thats Dutch.. The people? Because if so, you should say "heil the Dutch" and my country is Holland or the Netherland, in that case it would be "heil Holland" or "heil the Netherlands".. So you'll get it right next time ;)
yep, I will thanks. Heil DUTCH! :gigi:

I don't live in Amsterdam ...
that much I figured ... ooops, city people ignorance ... it's ok, i was a village girl for a while myself, I know how it is, I am sympathetic :D

Lux

13-04-2006, 16:01

thanks qb. and spy - its good to come back to your comments. ;) on another note, san fran has one of the most inflated real estate markets in the US so it's understandable it's more expensive than many cities.

question:
when it comes to migration, the topic is better discussed between countries and people of eastern europe, is it not?

i mean, it is only more of a problem there because the countries are small and next to each other. that is, if i were living in france and moved to spain, that would be my immigrating to spain. i dont know if i'd say i migrated to spain from france. that just sounds weird. but i guess it's all semantics anyway.

QueenBee

13-04-2006, 16:07

thanks qb. and spy - its good to come back to your comments.
Thank you, miss :rose:

the topic is better discussed between countries and people of eastern europe, is it not?
Sure but anyone is free to give their opinion of course. :D

So Anouk, tell me now, would you really want to work as a construction builder? Or as a cleaner?

haku

13-04-2006, 16:13

if i were living in france and moved to spain, that would be my immigrating to spain. i dont know if i'd say i migrated to spain from france.
That would be just *moving* because both countries are EU member states (and in the Schengen zone and the Euro zone on top of it) so there is absolutely no border of any kind between France and Spain, a French person can move to Spain to live and work as easily as to any other French regions, no difference whatsoever, no formalities of any kind.

coolasfcuk

13-04-2006, 16:34

on another note, san fran has one of the most inflated real estate markets in the US so it's understandable it's more expensive than many cities.
you wouldnt want to say 'San Fran' around here ;) it doesnt matter about the market, it is the use of selective language here ..

question:
when it comes to migration, the topic is better discussed between countries and people of eastern europe, is it not?
what do you mean by that?

QueenBee

13-04-2006, 16:36

coolasfcuk

13-04-2006, 17:06

I thought she meant that she has personally not experienced that up close (not migration, but people working in other countries but their own for less money etc.).. :confused: I guess I misunderstood.
maybe, but why only Eastern Europe? That applies to most Europe, and not to mention she picked two of the largest western neighbording countries as an example.
I also wanted to add in response to haku, that even though people in EU can move around and get jobs anywhere they want, there is still sort of 'migrartion' process involved as the EU countries are still pretty culturally diverse. EU does not deal with culture and identity. I just came back from Portugal and Spain and out of all the places I've been in EU (Czech R., Germany, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark, France, Italy, Sweden, Spain and Portugal - just as a comparision) Portugal reminded me SO MUCH more of Bulgaria than any of the other ones, even Czech R., which felt a lot more westernized. Portugal is South europe and culturally i think it is easier to divide Europe in North-South, rather than East-West - meaninig more similarities. Of course i've only visited those countries, so my impressions arent of a person who's actually lived there :D

Anouk

13-04-2006, 17:42

that much I figured ... ooops, city people ignorance ... it's ok, i was a village girl for a while myself, I know how it is, I am sympathetic :D

I'm born and raised in the heart of a city, thank you.. Just not as big as Amsterdam.. So don't go throwing things around you know nothing about, especially about me ;)

So Anouk, tell me now, would you really want to work as a construction builder?

Construction worker? Sure, what needs to be build? :p I loved lego's when I was a kid, I was always building houses, lol :p But I can't, my back is seriously messed up and I can't do heavy work.. :(

coolasfcuk

13-04-2006, 17:45

I'm born and raised in the heart of a city, thank you.. Just not as big as Amsterdam..
you know what they say, either from the capital or a provincialist, regardless of the size of the place :gigi:

xmad

13-04-2006, 18:45

when it comes to migration, the topic is better discussed between countries and people of eastern europe, is it not?
No,why?
the topic says "Migration :: Your opinions" so everyone is free to discuss.

Anouk

13-04-2006, 19:05

you know what they say, either from the capital or a provincialist, regardless of the size of the place :gigi:

Maybe they say that in your little world, because I have never heard form that :rolleyes:

haku

13-04-2006, 19:54

culturally i think it is easier to divide Europe in North-South, rather than East-West - meaninig more similarities.Oh i agree, the real difference in Europe is between the North and the South, between the Nordic ones (people who historically communicated with each other through the North and Baltic seas and were mainly outside the Roman Empire) and the Mediterranean ones (people who historically communicated with each other through the Mediterranean sea and were inside the Roman Empire), different cultures and mentallities developped in those two areas.
Being a Northern French person, i feel culturally much closer to Brits, Scandinavians, or Germans than i do to Southern French people. And Southern French people feel culturally much closer to Italians or Spaniards than to Northern French people.
The West-East divide was only caused by a temporary political opposition that only lasted 40 years, in a few decades it will be all forgotten and we'll be back to the natural North South divide.

even though people in EU can move around and get jobs anywhere they want, there is still sort of 'migrartion' process involved as the EU countries are still pretty culturally diverse.That's true, but it all depends where you come from and where you move to.
For example, many French people from Languedoc-Rousillon (that's on the West French Mediterranean coast) have moved to Catalonia in Spain to work, those people are very close culturally, and those French people who work in Catalonia do not feel and are not perceived *at all* like immigrants, they are just seen like people who've moved from a neighboring region and have absolutely no problem to fit in.
Other similar examples include French people from Alsace and Lorraine who've moved to Bade-Wurtemberg in Germany, again very close culturally and not causing any problem, or French people from Normandy who've moved to Southern England.
Those small movements between neighboring EU members do not cause any problems and are not percieved at all on either side as immigration, just like people moving from a neighboring region like i said above, and those movements actually represent the majority of population movements in the EU. People who move very far from their original location and make some people freak out are a small percentage of population movements in the EU as a whole.

QueenBee

14-04-2006, 02:28

Anouk, sorry to hear about your back! :rose: My uncle's is the same. :(

I still don't understand what jobs they are 'stealing' so to say. I mean, I'm not sure what kind of eastern europeans move to Holland but I'm guess it's the same as those who move here, when it comes to age group.

So these people are usually middle-aged or so, and they most likely don't know English well. That's why I asked if you would want to work with construction or cleaning, because that's usually the jobs that they get. As it was already mentioned before, these are no "good" jobs so to say, I mean, they can pay you rent but that's pretty much it.

And they probably get the jobs because, you know, they don't mind working long hours for less money than you would get, so of course the companies take them instead.. next time you're on an interview tell them they can pay the same amount to you as they pay immigrants. :p If you get the same amount of hours and work I'm sure you would quit soon enough (I know I would... eeek!)

Besides, I'm positive that if you owned a company, you would be perfectly fine with immigrants working for you, for cheaaap. I know I would. And that's really how the companies are thinking, so maybe you should complain about them instead of the immigrants who steal your jobs.